13/07/2011 am.pm

Good morning and welcome to am.pm. It is our final programme before

the politicians' head back to their constituencies and prepare for

their holidays, probably giving them plenty of work as well. Today

will be at Prime Minister's Questions as Government and

opposition call on Rupert Murdoch to abandon his plans to take full

control of BSkyB. David Cameron was in the Senedd yesterday with summer

eyes on public services on the day the First Minister on Bill's his

legislative programme. And I will be gauging opinion on the Welsh

Government's plans and looking at possible moves to ban smoking in

Joining meet today are at Labour's Ann Jones and Conservative Angela

Burns. We will be back to you in a moment. It was a busy day in

Cardiff Bay yesterday, that First Minister was unveiled in the last

Government's legislative programme for the next five years. The Prime

Minister was also in the Senedd, he told a AMs an inquiry into the way

Wales' was funded by the UK Government would be carried out and

said the UK Government was revolutionising the public sector

in England and had a message for Carwyn Jones. Let me defrag. Many

other parts of the UK, some public services in Wales are too

bureaucratic to deliver those improvements. I fundamentally

believe that now is the time to modernise our public services and

in England, that is what we're doing, we're opening up choice, for

the schools we send our children to and hospitals we are treated in. We

are picking open the state monopoly and inviting the new providers.

We're making the system more transparent. I believe these

changes will revolutionise public services in England and improve

people's lives. I also believe that more open public services could do

the same in Wales. That was not the wisest part of the speech.

Lecturing the UK cut minute on where they're going on. He and I

would disagree on a number of things but I welcome to the element

that talked about the setting up of the commission, it is important

that the work is carried on as soon as possible in the autumn.

Carwyn Jones also went on to unveil his legislative programme for the

next five years yesterday. There will be at least 21 bills in the

areas including organ donation, cycling, improving schools and

tackling homelessness. He told AMs it was a sustainable programme.

Plenty for our guests to get their teeth into. Sustainability lies at

the heart of the Welsh,'s agenda and it lies at the heart of this

legislative programme. -- the Welsh Government's agenda. It will

promote well-being and it will enhance quality of life in Wales.

Our approach to sustainable development has been to focus on

fairness and social justice and the protection of our outstanding

culture and heritage. Sustainability is more than just a

green idea, -- dream more idea, it is about a long-term development

plan for our nation. It means healthy and productive people, I

put communities, a diverse and resilient environment and an

advanced an innovative economy. it for our guests to get their

teeth into, and they were almost about to get started - I started to

get any head from Carwyn Jones again. Now is your chance. It was

said yesterday, you waited long enough for this programme, now it

is here, are you satisfied with it? No. There are some good bills

coming through, and I should be interested to see what the

Education Bill will start to bring forward, because it has been

recognised that education in Wales is in a tight corner and the need

to move that forward. But there is nothing on the economy. That is

surprising because we need to have a strong economy in Wales to help

drive us forward and create the funds to help pay for the very

important services that we need. There are a lot of gaps that we

found very concerning, and it was good to see other things re appear,

like organ donation, because there is a debate that must be had

worldwide on that issue. Let's see what Ann Jones says. We had from

Angela Burns about what was not to let, let us talk about what was.

What were the highlights for you? 21 features of legislation, which

one do you see as been the most important? For most of water for my

constituents will be a house in Bel, it is important, I think the

Housing Bill for the worst Government can take more protection

for tenants and that will certainly make my life a lot easier. But also

families who are currently in private rented accommodation. There

are very unscrupulous landlords. I think the point about the economy,

we do need bills to look at a strong economy, we have to look

forward. We have to create there was opportunities for a strong

economy. If people would have seen a bill, maybe they would have had

more confidence. Looking at enterprise zones. Encouraging the

bankers in Wales to be a lot more supportive of smaller businesses.

97% of Welsh businesses tend to fall into the small to medium-sized

bracket. They eat look to the Government and they want to hear

that voice, we are in this with you. You talk about public sector, which

is extremely important. And you also have to bring up that private

sector. It does not needed will to do that. That is what the

Government is taking forward now, recognising that went we will look

at those, and individual sectors we can promote. We have or huge of to

electronics firm, but we do not need bills for enterprise. Maybe we

don't need a bell if the Government moves ahead and to play the

reorganises all of the council's. - - Abdul. We may come to that later.

David Cameron touched on that cluster him said ossify. Let us

talk about what he had to say yesterday. What did you think of

what he had to say? It seemed to suggest, look what I am doing, you

should do it to. There was Government voted for Labour

Government who would protect public services. I think he should not

tell us to do what he is doing. think he is talking about what they

are doing in England. We are looking at best practice. Whether

it is schools or councils, surely it is the same in Government. You

look to what Scotland and England are doing. The point he was trying

to make was look at what they're doing, best practice, because we

have to deliver a solid future for Wales. If you look at faces of some

Labour ministers, they would be very good in a game of poker.

�57 million for abroad and was given, that is a good way forward.

This is again them back to the economy, it not the family to

develop. Agreement has broken out on the so far? Drop us a line if

you have anything to say on any of the stories on the programme today.

You can get in touch on Twitter, the address is @walespolitics.

Would you can write to last. -- or are you can write to us. Would you

can e-mail at Mill. At busy day ahead at Westminster.

When you are sat with us last week, phone hacking dominated again, the

Prime Minister will be making a statement later.

You cannot hearers, David? Hopefully we will come back to

David later on. Our reporter Mark Hannaby hopefully will be able to

here last! He is outside the Senedd. This afternoon, we start as usual

with questions from ministers, this week it is Leighton Andrews and

Carl Sergeant, they will be taking questions of members. Following

that we're told Leighton Andrews will make a statement on the report

into schools, which should be interesting. Then there is a motion

to admit the EU -- the new Lib Dem members, to committees of the

Assembly. Following from that, there will be the debate proper of

the afternoon, the Welsh Conservatives want to top about

tourism, the promotion of Wales's image overseas. -- to talk about.

Plaid Cymru want to talk about public sector jobs and in

particular the Welsh Government's own jobs. You may remember there

was some concern about the future of Dairy as well as Government

offices. In particular, places like Newtown, Caernarfon. We are

wondering whether they will keep the last Government offices. Plaid

Cymru are calling on the Government to give some guidance on what they

plan to do there. Following from that, the lead Dems want to talk

about business rates. They would like the Government to review

business rates, which they feel is an impediment to small businesses

in a difficult economic climate and they would like an extension of

business rate relief. That is your business this afternoon. I hope

everyone enjoys it. We will be back to speak to mark

later on. He will have guests with him throughout the morning and

afternoon. Let us try to speak to David Cornock again.

Hello. There he is. Phone hacking dominated last week when we had

this conversation. It is dominating again this week. The Prime Minister

is going to make a statement? Phone hacking will probably

dominate three events in Parliament today, first Question Time, and

ever be surprised if it was not raise them, then at 12.30, a

statement from the Prime Minister about the nature of the inquiry

into the failure of the police to investigate properly the phone

hacking scandal. And the wider inquiry into the question of media

ethics, we will possibly get the name of the judge then after talks

between the main three party leaders last night. Around four

o'clock we will get an debate on a Labour motion, which calls on

Rupert Murdoch to withdraw his bid to buy BSkyB. As we know, everybody

from opposition to the Government, is lining up in favour of that

notion. David, I do not think I am giving

away anything about your age, but you have covered loads of big

events in Westminster. Where does this rank with some of the stories

you have covered? It is an extraordinary scandal by

any measure, it involves MPs, MPs feel they were like to buy

newspapers, MPs are pretty cross about that and when they get cross

about something that has happened to them, it tends to get personal.

What has been astonishing for me in the time I have been reporting

politics in the news generally is the way the story has changed hour

by hour. I can tell you what I think will happen, during the rest

of the day, but in an hour's time, by the time I speak to radio

listeners at one o'clock, everything might have changed again.

It has been an unusual story. The rolling news television channels,

they might do quite well out of this.

Just trying to, Labour MP, was quite influential in securing a

debate last week. -- Chris Bryant. What other Welsh MPs saying about

this? Certainly, the sort of praise for

Chris Bryant, even from those who are perhaps not previously signed-

up members of his fan club. The Speaker agreed, he forced that

urgent debate and that has put the Government on the back foot.

Certainly the Conservatives in some ways which this would go away,

because it comes down again to the question of why did David Cameron

appoint a former editor of their News of the World in Downing Street

as his Director of Communications? For Labour, it has given Ed

Miliband after let, he seems to have been in touch with the public

mood on this. He seems to have led on this in that way that has left

the Government and David Cameron playing catch-up.

For the time being, thanks, David. Speak to you later for Prime

Minister's Question. You can get updates from David on BBC Radio

Wells all through the day. We just heard from David that the

Prime Minister will speak to the UK Government, it is in fact a Labour

motion on Rupert Murdoch's takeover of BSkyB in the Commons this

afternoon. David Cameron and Nick Clegg met Ed Miliband last night

and it is expected they will all go together to make Mr Murdoch abandon

his bid for BSkyB. Our reporter debt and James has been speaking to

the Labour MP David Hanson, who has At and I am pleased they have

joined the Labour opposition today. We want to support the motion to

stop Rupert Murdoch preceding. The Government have been dragged to

this by the opposition. They did not want to be where they are now.

Events have dictated the decisions. Some people will be saying that

politicians have been slow to take on Rupert Murdoch and his monopoly.

Why has it been slow for the politicians to look at the

monopoly? I think there are issues around that but it's demonstrate in

the past few weeks with the stories about News of the World that there

are concerns about this issue. Today, we have I suspect a

unanimous opinion from the House of Commons. There is not an

opportunity for Rupert Murdoch to continue. Do you welcome the

inquiry into the hacking scandal? But should it be wider and include

the relationship between the politicians and the press? We need

a sensible look at this. Politicians must speak to the media.

I am speaking to you now. We must do that off-camera and on camera.

But there is a relationship that must be subject to scrutiny. We

must have a balance and we hope the inquiry will be a sensible balance.

What would you like the inquiry to look at? We need an open and

democratic journalism. We need a proper relationship between

political life and journalism. We must have a plurality of ownership.

People must have a redress when or wrongs are done. We must have

standards. These types of practices in the past few weeks are not

acceptable. Not just legally, but in moral judgment. I want to talk

to you about the evidence given by the Home Affairs Committee

yesterday by several officers from the Metropolitan Police. That

included John Mark Yates, assistant commissioner. You were a police

minister under the last government. Was his evidence convincing? He has

to answer for what he was doing. I was a minister when he said to be

at the time that he had looked at these charges and I reported to the

House. He must accept that his decisions at that time were not

very good. But what is more important is that we investigate

into how the police performed not just in 2009 but in 2006. It

appears the evidence was there to lead to some of the charges that

are not for coming in the allegations. -- forthcoming.

said he regretted some of the decisions. But some would say it

was incompetence. Should he resign? I am not calling for that. He must

decide whether he performed. What I will want to see happen is an

investigation into what he was doing and why he was doing that and

what his predecessors did. In the separation between ministers and

police, he said we did not have evidence. It appears that evidence

was there. There was a systemic failure. I hope the inquiry will

tell us what happened and why these decisions were taken. One of the

questions was the issue of police officers taking payments from News

International. You were the police minister. Are you are aware of

this? Nothing ever crossed my desk about that in the nine months that

I was there. Not by any newspaper or any other source. But as he said

yesterday, in a big organisation, there are likely to be some people

that can be corrupted. We must get to the bottom of that. We must look

at whether or not inducements in Kalinski prosecutions. We must look

at how journalism and the police operate. -- prosecutions. Q What a

police minister for a short time but do you feel responsibility for

the last inquiry? I do not. We were very clear. When the allegations

came forward in 2009, myself and Alan Johnson asked the police

commissioner, Sir Paul Stephenson and John Yates to look at these

allegations. It is their job to look at that. We did not want the

Government doing the job of the police. They look at that and

reported back to us in two weeks. I reported to the House and it is

their job to investigate these allegations. What is clear and John

admitted that it was not very good, is that the inquiry should get to

the bottom of why it was not very good. People had responsibilities

that would not discharged. He said the blame was at the door of News

International for not co-operating with the inquiry. Do you agree?

Some people say that Rhonda was did not want to co-operate with the

police but that should not be a surprise. -- wrong doing. People

went to jail on their watch. There is likely to be serious potential

charges in the future. It is not surprising they did not want to co-

operate. The inquiry must look at the evidence and the actions of the

police and News International. If charges must be brought, they

should be and that should clear up What do our guests think about

that? It is a big story, isn't it? David Cornock said it is changing

every hour. We have seen at News International for what they really

are. I think that Ed Miliband has been very good in this matter. He

has connected with the country and has made all the running. We can

connect and we are in touch with people. David Cameron and Nick

Clegg are running behind him to catch up. We want to take that

forward and we want to stop this thing happening. But your party has

been culpable, if that is the right word in the relationship with News

International? The Labour Party did that. I did not necessarily agree.

I remember the Sun headlines many years before they came forward and

supported Tony Blair. But it is the ordinary journalists at News of the

World that I feel sorry for. Some people were not responsible. They

will be the people suffering. I am glad News of the World is gone. I

am sorry it was 168 years but it is not what I would have called a

newspaper. But what I do not want is to see that reinstated under a

different name. I will be watching this debate today. I think we

really have to tighten this up and we must help proper journalists do

proper reporting. They must not look at the pass the diocese.

you pleased that people seem to have sorted this out? --

personalities. In my years as a politician, I have often heard the

public interest defence. That people buy the newspapers they want

to bite. But actually, people are not happy. It is not acceptable to

hack into private medical records. I am sure they say all sorts of

things. The basic line is if it is a soldier in Afghanistan, a

murdered child, private medical records, we are the society we want

to be. If we want to have respect and warmth towards human beings, we

have got to start sorting this out. We talk in Westminster and Cardiff

about children being the future. How be dispossessed young people

will not engage. It is all quite important. Do we want to be a part

of this? This is an important part, media and the politicians. It has

been a wake up call and the public have woken up. When you look at the

newspaper, do you really want to think that newspaper might have got

that story under appalling circumstances? We hope we can raise

up a little bit and say, this is what we want to be, a little bit

better and a different way of life. If just half the alleged stories

about News International are correct, what an absolute shambles.

Very strong opinions. But you are suggesting that there might be a

change in society. I think that is correct. For a long time it has

been ways in which certain newspapers have reported. I am glad

this has come out into the open. It is not just the Guardian newspaper

reporting these things. I think people must look at best. They must

take some ownership of these facts. The Sun used to be a working-class

paper. But it cannot be classed like that anymore. If people keep

buying the newspaper, then that is what they are doing, they are

feeding the habit. We will talk about this again later. Marquees

You have come right before the legislative programme has been

announced. We have got 21 bills. What do you think of it in general?

We welcome the fact that we have got a statement. We have got a lot

of issues on which we could probably agree. But we need to get

more of the details. Then we can say what we can support. But

definitely, we have got a lot of issues that are common throughout

the Chamber. We have got concerns about issues like transport. We are

surprised we did not get more about the economy. Let me ask you that as

a former council leader, the plans to make senior officers work for

more than one authority. That will be legislated upon later. What do

you think of that? What did you think of your leader's difficulties

with that? Kirsty Williams seemed to think it was back door

reorganisation. What she was trying to question people on was whether

it was a reorganisation by the back door or just tinkering at the edges.

There are major questions that must be answered about this programme.

Local authorities had been working and collaborating for the past

three years. There have been major projects that are growing now. It

is a mistake to think that you can reorganise the local government

just by getting 18 senior officers sharing jobs. But it could have

been very controversial. If they did not act when apparently and

there were warnings in place, they will warned they needed to work

more closely, then people would be accused of activities that would

not responded to. I was involved in discussions in Wales with six

authorities looking at improving schools services. The reality is

that they will be evolution. Many people recognise that the days of

having 20 authorities with an independent department providing

services across the board is probably not something that can be

sustained. We cannot either look at collaboration and efficiencies

within the system just by getting fewer chief officers and directors.

We would like to ask you about housing. A Housing Bill has been

planned and he will be aware of that. Some councils are finding

social housing provision difficult. I think we have got a lack of

detail here. One of the questions we asked the Government was the

issue of empty properties throughout Wales. We have not had

much details about sorting that out. We are getting a repetition of

ideas in the past 18 months. At this stage, I am willing to give

them the benefit of the doubt. But we must find out more about these

proposals. Thank you for joining us. But for Prime Minister's Questions,

we have got two guests. One supported Aled Roberts and one

didn't. Do you stand by your decision? There is just one vote

that I would have gone back on it I could have done. I said yes but on

the balance of probabilities and on the balance of the report, many

things have come up for me to doubt that I made the correct decision. I

feel down. Do you feel as strongly as Angela? I think that when people

like Angela say that they would have reconsidered, I think that is

very important. The electoral commission had stated and it was

for hours afterwards that they had not been any activity on the Welsh

website. But there is enough doubt now. Nothing exclusive for him to

be brought back. We are off to the Mr Speaker, too late voicemail

slept for a missing TJ -- teenager. Buying the silence of public

figures who would incriminate your business. Publishing competition

medical details. -- confidential. I asked the Prime Minister, are any

of these the actions of a fit and proper person? My honourable friend

makes an extremely powerful point in a powerful way. We have to be

clear about what is happening. There is a firestorm that is

engulfing parts of the media, parts of the police and indeed, our

political system's ability to respond. What we must do is think

although all of the victims, like the Dallan family, and make doubly

sure that we get to the bottom of what happened. And that we

prosecute those who are guilty. Speaker, yesterday I met a family

of my leader there, who should incredible bravery in speaking out

about what happened to them, attacking and their terrible

treatment at the hands of the News of the World. I am sure the whole

House will want to pay tribute to their courage and bravery. Does the

Prime Minister now agree that it is an insult to the family that

Rebekah Brooks, who was the editor of the News of the World at the

time, is still in her post at News International? I have made clear

she was right to resign, that resignation should have been

accepted. There needs to be root- and-branch change at this entire

organisation. I think it has now become clear that while everyone to

start with wanted in some way to separate what was happening at News

International and what is happening with BSkyB, is simply not the

possibility. What is happening is disgraceful and it has to be

addressed at every level and they should stop thinking about mergers.

Mr Speaker, I thank the Prime Minister for that answer, he is

right to take opposition and Rebekah Brooks should go. When such

a serious cloud hangs over a News Corporation and that the abuses

having occurred, does he agree with me that it would be quite wrong for

them to expand their stake in the British media, and does he further

agree that if the House of Commons speech with one voice today, and I

hope people come to this debate, that Rupert Murdoch should drop his

bid for BSkyB, should recognise the world has changed and should listen

to this House of Commons? I agree with what the honourable gentleman

says. It is good the House of Commons is going to speak with one

voice. As he knows, the Government has a job to do to act at all times

within the law. My right honourable friend the Culture Secretary has to

obey every aspect of the lot. Laws that were on the whole put in place

by the last Government. And yes, as the honourable member says, we

should let - that we should make -- make sure the fit and proper test

is right, but I think it is acceptable at the same time to obey

the law as a Government but to send a message from this House that this

business has to stop the business of mergers and get on with the

business of cleaning it stables. look forward to debating these

issues with the Leader of the House, there will be speaking to the

Government later in the debate. -- who will be speaking. I know he is

making a statement about the inquiry. But can he confirm

something we agreed last night? We need to make sure we get to the

bottom not just of what happened at our newspapers, but also about the

relationship between politicians and the press. Does he agree with

me that if we expect editors and members of the press to give

evidence under oath, so should current and past politicians.

agree, first of all on this issue of the debate. We are debating now

and that is right. We will have a statement in the House of Commons

and Mr Speaker, I will stand here and answer questions from as many

members of Parliament as one to ask them. As the Leader of the

Opposition said, we had an excellent meeting last night to

discuss the nature of the inquiry that needs to take place. We

discuss the terms of reference. I sent those terms of reference to

his office this morning. We have had some amendments which we will

accept. They must will be draft terms of reference and I want to

hear what do family of Millie de la and others have to say so we can

move in a way to take the whole country with this has we deal with

this problem. I also think that if we are going to say to the police,

you must be more transparent and cut out corruption, if we say to

the media, you must be more transparent and cut out malpractice,

the relationship between politicians and the media must

change and we must be more transparent as well. About meetings

particularly with executives, editors, proprietors and the rest

of it. I will be setting out proposals for precisely that.

want to thank the Prime Minister for those answers, they are answers

the whole country will have wanted to hear. Can I also ask him to

clear up one specific issue. It has been confirmed that his chief of

staff was given specific information before the general

election by the Guardian newspaper. The information shows that whilst

he was editing the News of the World, Andy Coulson had hired a man

jailed for seven years for a criminal conspiracy and who made

payment to police on behalf of the News of the World. Can the Prime

Minister tell us what happened to that significant information that

was given to his chief of staff? Are like to answer this if I may in

full. I do need to get a very full answer. All these questions relate

to the fact that I hired a tabloid editor. I did so on the basis of

assurances he gave me that he did not know about the phone hacking,

was not involved in criminality. He gave the same assurances to the

police, to the Select Committee of this House and under oath to a

court of law. If it turns out he live, it will not just be that he

should not have been in Government but he should be prosecuted. But

they do believe that we must stick to the principle that you are

innocent until proven guilty. Let me deal directly about the

information given to my office by figures from the Guardian newspaper

in February last year. This information was not passed to me,

but let me be clear, this was not some secret stash of information,

almost all of it was published in the Guardian in February 2010 at

the same time my office was approached. It contained no

allegations directly linking Andy Coulson to the illegal behaviour,

it did not shed any further light on the issue of phone hacking, show

it was not drawn to my attention by my office. What is more, let me

make his point, I met the editor of the Guardian the next month and he

did not raise it with me once. I met him regulator and he did not

raise it with me then, either. I would ask if this information is so

significant, why have I not been asked one question about it at a

press conference or in this House? The reason why... The reason why,

Mr Speaker, it did not add anything to the assurances that I was given.

But let me say once more, if I was like to, if the police were like to,

if the Select Committee was like to, it will be a matter of deep regret

Order! Anybody might think that orchestrated noise is taking place.

Order! Order! These exchanges will continue in an orderly way. Mr Ed

Miliband. The Prime Minister has just made an

important at Nissan. He has admitted his chief of staff was

given information before the general election that Andy Coulson

had hired a man jailed for seven years for a criminal conspiracy,

who made payments to the police on behalf of the News of the World.

This evidence casts serious doubt on Mr Coulson's assurances that the

phone hacking over which he resigned was an isolated example of

illegal activity. The Prime Minister says the chief of staff

did not pass on this very serious information. Can he now tell us

what information he proposes to take against his chief of staff?

I have given the fullest possible answer I could to the right

honourable gentleman. He can stand there and ask questions about Andy

Coulson. I can stand here and ask questions about Tom Baldwin. He can

ask questions about my private office, and I can ask questions

about Damian McBride. But, Mr Speaker, I think the public and the

victims of this appalling scandal want us to rise above this and deal

with the problems that the country faces. Mr Speaker, he just doesn't

get it. He just doesn't get it. I say this to the Prime Minister. He

was warned by the Deputy Prime Minister about hiring Andy Coulson.

He was warned by Lord Ashdown about hiring Andy Coulson. He has now

admitted in the House of Commons today that his chief of staff was

given complete evidence which contradicted Andy Coulson's

previous account. The Prime Minister must now published the

fullest account of all the information that was provided and

what he did and why those warnings went unheeded. And he should most

of all apologise for the catastrophic error of judgment he

made in hiring Andy Coulson. I am afraid, Mr Speaker, the person who

is not getting it is now the Leader of the Opposition. What the public

want us to do is to address this firestorm. They want us to sort out

bad practices at the media, they want us to fix the corruption in

the police, they want a proper public inquiry and they are

entitled to ask, when these problems went on for so long for so

many tears, what was it that happened in the last decade,? Where

was the public inquiry over the last ten years? We now have a full

on police investigation that will see proper prosecutions and I hope,

proper convictions. And we will have a public inquiry run by just

to get to the bottom of this issue. That is the leadership I am

determined to provide. Order! Order! Order! Order! Order! Order!

I say to the Children's Minister, try to calm down and behave like an

adult, and if you cannot, if it is beyond you, leave the chamber, get

out, we will manage without you. Mr David Ward. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

This is intolerable behaviour as far... No, it is not funny, only in

your mind is it funny. It is not funny at all, it is disgraceful. Mr

David Ward. Thank you, Mr Speaker. In one case of the pot calling the

kettle black, we just had a pantomime interval for a minute. Is

the Prime Minister aware that there are young people in Bradford being

quoted �53,000 to insure their first car? These ridiculous

premiums are being driven by insurance companies. What are they

going to do... My honourable friend makes a good point about the

problems of referral fees that are driving up the cost of insurance

for many people. The right honourable gentleman the Member for

Blackburn has made some powerful points about this. There was a

report to the Government calling for the four of these to be banned.

I n sympathetic to this and I know the Justice Secretary is as well,

we hope to make some progress. -- I am sympathetic. Will the Prime

Minister if asked, gave evidence to the judge lead public inquiry that

he is setting up today? The point about the inquiry which I will be

announcing, it will be judged lead, it will take its powers from the

inquiries Act, it will be able to call people under oath and I think

this is vital, there are three pillars to this. There is the issue

of police corruption, the issue of what happened at the media, and

also questions for politicians past, present and future. Thank you, Mr

Speaker. My constituents are increasingly concerned about the

deepening problems in the euro-zone. Will the Prime Minister reassure me

that he is doing everything he can to keep us out of it and to urge

We have got to stay out of it. I think membership would take away

the flexibility we currently have. But we must remember, 40 % of

exports go to countries in the European currency. We must have a

proper test for the banks, backed up by capitalisation. We must make

the Greek debt burden sustainable. We must reduce excessive deficits.

These countries must recognise that they must do more together and

faster. They must get ahead of the market, not responding to the next

crisis. Lord Ashdown said he warned Number Ten last year of the

terrible damage they would suffer if Andy Coulson was appointed. Can

he say how precisely he reacted to this warning? The point I made

before, the decision to employ a tabloid editor meant a number of

people said this was not a good idea. Particularly when that editor

had been at News of the World when bad things happened. I accepted the

assurances that he gave me. These were given to the police, a Select

Committee and to a court. But if we were lied to, that would be a

matter of deep regret and I could not be clearer than that. But we

must judge people as innocent until proven guilty. This week, I got

another e-mail from a constituent with regard to metal and cable. It

told me about an elderly lady that had fallen and could not raise the

alarm because the cables from her village had been stolen for the

second time in two weeks. The legislation relating to this dates

back to 1964. Can we have an urgent review to make certain that these

dealers are prevented from operating again? I have every

sympathy. I had eight case in my constituency when the roof in the

local church was stolen. The police put a massive costs on voluntary

bodies, churches, charities and businesses. These must not be

regarded a second order crimes because they are growing and very

worrying. The debate today will be vital. It indicates the House will

be united in revulsion at what happens to Milly Dowler's family.

But can he make an urgent inquiry as to whether the families of the

victims of September 11th were also targeted by News International? If

they work, will he raised it with his American counterparts? I will

look at that. I will give figures in my statements about how many

people were considered to be victims of phone hacking. Stable

contact every single one. I met with Sir Paul Stephenson to seek

reassurance about the scale of the police operation underway. I have

to say what was a mixed appearance by police officers at the Home

Affairs Select Committee last night, I thought that the leader of the

investigation actually acquitted herself extremely well. We should

have confidence in the Metropolitan Police in getting to the bottom of

this. Suffolk is already committed to low carbon. We have got offshore

windfarms and a recycling rate of more than 60 %. He is welcome to

visit but will he give backing to our ambition to enhance a training

and give local job opportunities? She makes a very good point and I

congratulate her on rebranding Suffolk. It is similar to what my

honourable friend said about nuclear energy. We must encourage

inward investment and demonstrate we can build up the scale said.

That is where local enterprise partnerships can play a valuable

part. Can he tell the House would 80 had any conversations about

phone hacking with Andy Coulson at the time of his resignation? Will

he plays a lot of any meetings and phone calls in the library? As I

said before perhaps their question was written... Of course I short

assurances and I received assurances. They were not just

given at the time to me but also given subsequently to the Select

Committee and to a criminal case. But let me say again to avoid any

doubt, if these assurances turned out not to be correct, it is not

just that he should not have worked in government, but he should face

prosecution. Can I raise with the Prime Minister a different case of

phone hacking? -- hacking? He has the legal process to follow

computer hacking. Does he share the feeling of my constituents that one

man is hanging by a thread waiting to be cut by a judicial review?

recognise the seriousness of this case and the Deputy Prime Minister

and myself raised bat with President Obama. Everybody

understands it is a very serious offence. You can understand why the

Americans feel strongly about it. The case is in front of the Home

Secretary. She must consider reports about his health and well-

being. She must do that properly, it effectively Ind in a judicial

way. -- and in a judicial way. have had a decimation of the police

service and a withdrawal of legal aid. Can I ask him to just by the

following... The servicemen from Northern Ireland asked for a non-

urgent pair of boots, �45. They were dispatched by private courier

to Northern Ireland at a cost of �714. Is it not time he got a grip

of this? I understand former ministers wanted to hear the rattle

of every bed-bound. Maybe I should see every military order. One of

the things we are trying to do is recognise that there is a lot of

cost in terms of back office and logistics. We want to make that

more efficient and spend more money on the front line. It is a good

example and I will check it out and see if we can save money. Can he

assured the House that all press activity under the last government

will be investigated? Will this includes the criminal conspiracy

between the highest levels of that last government, with parts of the

Rupert Murdoch empire, including looking at private bank accounts in

an attempt to undermine Lord Ashcroft and his position?

point about the inquiry which we will shortly discuss is that it

will look at the relationship between politicians and the media

with the issue of media policy. This is very important. His inquiry

will have the ability to caught serving politicians, previous prime

ministers to get to the bottom of how this happened and how unhealthy

this relationship was. On Monday, the Ministry of Defence told the

Public Accounts Committee that the Prime Minister blocked a National

Audit Office from accessing relevant national security council

documents. They considered be is essential to assess whether the

decisions on the be aircraft carrier and the defence review

represent value for money. That refusal is unprecedented. In the

interests of transparency and accountability, will the Prime

Minister agree to immediately release the information? The short

answer is that we were following a precedent. The long answer is it

she wants be to come to that committee and explain what an

appalling set of decisions the previous government made on

aircraft carriers, the delay alone by the Government she worked for

added 1.6 billion to the cost of the aircraft carriers. If she wants

me to turn up and talk about what we discussed in Cabinet and lay out

the full detail of the ways to a government was responsible for,

name the day! Following a Prime Minister's question from 3rd May

years ago, pilot schemes were set up to support debt parents and

children in Devon and Merseyside. - - hard of hearing. Will he meet a

representative to discuss how his support can be extended to all

children and parents across the United Kingdom? He makes a very

good point and we do a lot to support different languages,

including signing. It is very important for many people in the

country are. I look at what the last Prime Minister said. I will

arrange a meeting for him to see how we can take his board.

question to be Prime Minister and turns the Thameslink rail programme.

-- concerns. With manufacturing jobs at risk, can he confirm that

contracts have not yet been signed? And indeed it cannot be signed

until the funding package has been determined? It is a complicated

process. This is the heart of the questioned. Given that the funding

package... Jobs are at stake, Mr Speaker. Given that jobs are at

risk, will a look at holding... think we have got it. He cares

deeply about this issue. It is a great company with a great future

and we want it to be successful. But the procurement process was

designed and initiated by the previous government. We were bound

by their criteria and we must continue with the decision that has

been made accordingly. But we are looking at all the regulations to

see if we can change and make better for the teacher these kinds

of issues. Will he join me in calling for the electrification of

the Chester railway line? It will provide a boost him this area and

the wider area. I am aware of this campaign. I spent a lot a time at

that station in the previous parliament. I was often accompanied

by people in top hats and tails. My colleagues will remember that. It

is not in the current programme but we will look at that sympathetic

way. -- in a sympathetic way. said university tuition fees would

average �7,500. They actually average 8000 �400. How can they be

-- more than �8,000. How can that be right? There are just nine

universities charging �9,000 for every student. If it yet

universities will not charge �9,000 for any cause is, that is better.

Many of them are charging less than �6,000. But university degrees have

not suddenly started costing �9,000. They have always costed that. Do

you ask the graduate to pay? Successful graduates or do you ask

the taxpayer? The money does not grow on trees. We have made our

choice. The party that introduced tuition fees should come up with

its answer. With the turmoil of other European economies caused by

the European currency, is it not essential this country should

continue to reduce debts and stay clear of any future bail-out,

despite advice from the benches opposite? It is not just the

restrictions of the European currency but the unsustainable

levels of debt. We are not in the currency but we have got to deal

with our debt. But we have got the opportunity to be a safe haven.

Market interest rates could actually come down because of the

Act should this government is taking. We must recognise the

European currency is sorting out its problems and that is in our

interest. We must be helpful and constructive with the work that

Last week I was approached regarding a debt management company

which advised people to take out a loan to pay off debts. The company

went out of business, taking the rest of my constituent's money. I

have many other examples of this, self-regulation is simply not

working. Will the Prime Minister look urgently at regulation in the

sector and provide resources so that Honourable people are not

continuing to be ripped off - man vulnerable people? I know that she

managed as citizens advice bureau herself so has seen people coming

in with debt problems. I would say Citizens' Advice is the finest

organisation in this country for helping people with debt. I will

certainly there could the suggesting she makes. What we can

do to help support citizens advice bureau, at what is a difficult time,

and also looking at the issue of credit unions and their expansion.

The whole House will share the out rage about the publication of

private medical information relating to Gordon Brown's child.

He said that when he was Prime Minister he also tried to set up a

judicial inquiry into phone hacking. I do have every sympathy with my

predecessor, particularly over the issue of the gliding of his details

by a newspaper. In public life, we are all subject to huge amounts of

scrutiny, but it is not fair when laws are broken. We have all

suffered from this and we have all been to silent about it. Your bins

are gone through by some media organisation but you hold back from

dealing with it because you want good relations from the media. We

need honesty about this issue on a cross-party basis so we can take on

this problem. I am determined that the one we set up, the inquiry,

with the support of the honourable gentleman, will get the job done.

Mr Speaker, the report an international children's games will

come to manager at the start of August. 1512-15-year-olds will

participate in sports. Will the Prime Minister congratulate two

Labour local authorities for their foresight in hosting the Games, and

will he send a representative of the Government to the event?

certainly congratulate the two local authorities. There are too

many Conservative local authorities -- to few, but I can congratulate

in Scotland. I wish him the best of luck. Will confirm that all

witnesses to all aspects of the inquiry will be required to give

evidence under oath? As I will explain in a minute, it will be one

inquiry would to back parts. But led by Judge and that judge will be

the one will eventually agree the terms of reference, set out the way

it is going to work, and be responsible for calling people

under if. Statement, the Prime Minister.

We finished their, that is the end of Question Time. -- we finished

there. He is about to update on the details of the phone hacking

inquiry. We now go back to Cardiff. We will reflect on Prime Minister's

Questions, which was dominated by phone hacking. I think it is fairly

easy to say that. One point I would like to raise with you from a

Labour perspective, we heard earlier that Ed Miliband had met

with the Prime Minister last night, and they were going to vote

together later on Higgins report murdered's takeover, I thought it

was all that he was really gunning for the Prime Minister during

premises questions. I think Ed Miliband was put in the case for

with, he has caught the mood of the public early on. He has almost

dried David Cameron to this decision. We were not party to what

they talked about last night, but it was obvious yesterday that David

Cameron's mind was elsewhere when he was talking to us in the Senedd.

You can see from his body language at it has taken its toll on him. I

think Ed Miliband is right to keep pushing the questions. I do not

seek their agreement as a reason to take your foot off the pedal. Prime

Minister's questions are scrutiny of the Prime Minister. Spoken like

a true politician! Angela, David Cameron was facing some pretty

tough questions there about Andy Coulson. Within a couple of minutes,

he appeared to distance himself from Andy Coulson, then defend him

when he said, he is innocent until proven guilty. What do you make of

the predicament the Prime Minister is in? I am not sure if he is in

one, but the point he is making clearly that when he took Andy

Coulson on as his director of strategy, he had done everything he

would normally expect an employer to do. He received assurances,

talked to the police, talked to a number of organisation, and

everything came up absolutely clean. So he says on the one hand, there

has not been a shred of evidence that Andy Coulson knew anything of

this, there Forest and by my decision to employ him, and I stand

by him. But he was also saying, however, if it turns out he lied,

if it turns out he misled people, he has got to face prosecution,

because nobody should be above the law. I support that. I suppose we

are getting ahead of ourselves now, if any prosecution was brought on

Andy Coulson and he was found guilty, what with that say about

the Prime Minister's judgment? We're talking about a scenario that

has not happen and is nowhere near on the cards. I was in business for

25 years and you hire someone and you go through their CV, check the

references, you get on well with them, then something will come out

from the past and it is this whole thing about do you give people a

second chance, do you move on? If you take a Draconian view that you

cannot move for, people who go to jail and come out and reform the

lies, they will never get a second chance. The whole thing is very

difficult and I think you can never be absolutely treat yourself -- the

only thing he can do is be true to yourself. As long as you know that

you make the decisions on the best possible evidence, you try and move

forward. He could end up kicking himself, a bit like the Boat I took

last week. Tom Watson, who has led the campaign, he mentioned he

wanted the Prime Minister to investigate whether the victims of

9/11's phones had been had. This is pretty serious for Rupert Murdoch

and his empire. He makes ten times as much money from the US as he

does in the UK. I think Tom Watson is right to do that. It has

unravelled. First of all, John Prescott was on about his on been

hacked and people just thought it was John Prescott. Then we get to

this awful situation whereby families have been hacked. And

their children have died in some horrible situation. It goes the

same for those out in Afghanistan. Tom Watson is right to say, how

much further back do we go two was Murdoch part and parcel of that

hacking of the victims of 9/11? I think people are very angry and I

think Murdoch will have to take the brunt of that. And you for the time

being. Coming up, should smoking be banned in cars with children as

passengers? Yesterday, the Prime Minister told

AMs that an inquiry into the way Wales' was funded by the UK

Government would be carried out. Yet it would be that out commission

similar to the so called Calman Commission in Scotland would

examine and New funding mechanism for the Assembly. Our correspondent

David Cornock has been getting the views of two MPs, let us go there

now. I cut of their huge damp squib, to

be honest. We have clear commitment that there would be a boss

Parliament, there has been improvements since then, and

yesterday there were two sentences in the Prime Minister's statement

on the Welsh issue. I do not think yesterday was a damp squib. �56

million of investment for broadband was announced. That is 10% of the

UK's budget coming to Wales, which shows the grace settlement Wales

will get. But it was only a week or so that the First Minister and the

Chancellor met. You will not get all the details and all of the

terms of reference from a week ago. Let us be realistic and accept that

there is a will to resolve it on both sides, both in Cardiff Bay and

as the -- in Westminster and by a optimistic that there will be

announcements that will resolve these issues. But we were told to

expect those detailed by the summer recess, which starts next Tuesday.

I am not tied up by that time table, I want to make sure we get it right.

We can look to policies in the past that have been done, rushed through,

that have not ended up with the right conclusion. If you look to

the Calman Commission in Scotland, there are lessons to be there and

there, because it looks unlikely able use their varying powers on

the basis they are so tight to income tax. So we need to learn the

lessons from what went right and what went wrong in Scotland and let

us get it right for Wales. Jonathan Edwards, what do you want to hear

from the duty Government about this commissioned? I would like to see

the Welsh Government following a similar vein as the Scottish, that

has opened up the constitutional settlement. And would be very

disappointed that if the terms of reference concentrated just on the

financing of the Welsh Government. We have already had a lot of

detailed work about the Commission done by the last of Government. It

seems to be Commission - me consensus amongst the four Welsh

parties. So it seems to me a lot of the work on finance has already

been done. We need to revisit the whole settlement and look at a

whole range of issues. You would include election of assembly

members in that as well? This is the obvious place to do. We will

have a Government of Wales was Secretary of State has indicated to

me. But as you the differences that exist. That is why this issue has

not been rushed through. Plaid Cymru are pushing the boundaries of

the settlement. Let us not forget where we are. It has not forget we

have just had a referendum were people decisively showed they

wanted the Assembly to have for the powers. Those powers have been

granted so let us work within the settlement. Those very politicians

campaigning for a yes vote at that time was saying, yes, this will

give us the powers to resolve those issues. If we look at the ledges

that it statement backing from the wells Government yesterday, that

was read in the first instance so let us see what they're doing with

what they have got. -- the legislative statement. Pushing the

boundaries? To make things have changed since the result of the

referendum. The battering ram of the campaigning in Scotland.

Following the elections, the was partial parity the Scotsman. That

message went down very well in Carmarthenshire. We have a huge

respect for the SNP in Scotland. They have tax varying powers, be do

not have it in Wells. Surely there would have to be another

referendum? - back in Wales. That is what we need to investigate

these issues. That is precisely the point, there needs to be consensus.

That consensus is have all been. But the consensus evolves, it does

not happen overnight. When Plaid Cymru and other politicians are

pushing the boundaries all the time, it is quite unhelpful. We should

not be thrown off in different directions because of any breakdown

in views. Will it Calman style commission expose what we really

want, which is two things, independence from the UK and more

money? What we must remember is the Scottish process was a stitch-up of

the Prix Unionists parties in Scotland. -- that unionist parties

has gone. Clearly, we want to take part in the process as much as

possible. As well as a referendum, let us remember the outcome of the

referendum. That you of Plaid Cymru and the demands for this, star

commission, they were pretty much rejected by the world population

and this demonstrates the inconsistency. Since that election,

they are pushing even further which a suspect would be even less

popular. There is a problem in that you are focused on constitutional

reform, it does not play very well with the electorate. The Lib Dems

could tell you that. Opinion polls are clear that the people of Wales

want further devolution, criminal justice, policing. The reality is,

we want these levers, because without them, we cannot get to

grips the enormous economic and social problems in Wales. There has

been a huge constitutional change within a very short space of time.

Let us be realistic, that is be consensual and ensure everyone is

on board. Plaid Cymru are being wholly unreasonable. Consensus

still seems a little way off, but gentlemen, thank you very much

The Government is investigating the possibility of banning people from

smoking in cars when children are on board. Here is our correspondent.

Your government is keen to look at it issue. What is the problem and

what are you doing about it? Many children can get respiratory

infections and we are concerned about that. It is a confined place.

When the cigarette is put out, the pollution remains. What would you

like to do to change that? Will you legislate? Not initially. We will

have public awareness campaigns and education campaigns. We will carry

on with the stop smoking campaign to prevent people from smoking in

the first instance but we can look at legislation later. Would you

make it illegal to smoke when you have a child in the car? I think

initially looking at banning smoking when there are children in

the car but that is something we can look at in the future. Some

people might have concerns about the nanny state aspect. Many people

disagree about smoking in cars and many people would not think that is

a good idea. They might be concerned about state intrusion.

How do you reassure them? understand that. People said that

about seatbelts. But we banned smoking in public places and this

is the next logical step. I am a big supporter of preventative

healthcare and I think this is the next step. Would you eventually ban

people smoking at home with children in the House? That would

be very difficult to introduce. That is part of the public

awareness campaign. People should be encouraged to stop smoking in

the first place. Already on the horizon is the Government saying

they want to change legislation on organ donation. What are you doing

there? We think we should make certain that more organs are

available for transplants. We have got National transplant Week and we

understand one person in every seven days in Wales dies waiting

for a transplant. We want more to be available. We will pursue

legislation. We will introduce a white paper in the autumn.

would introduce a presumed consent system? You would presume somebody

would consent to having organs donated unless they say that they

do not. Families would be able to have their views heard about this

after the death of a relative. it comes to that and who believe it

would not, if they use a disagreement and somebody has

passed away and it is presumed that they did consent but the family

disagrees, the family would have the final say. Absolutely. But we

would talk to them about their wishes. We need a public

information campaign about this so that people are crossed the issues.

They will be a big consultation process which will start with the

white paper in the autumn. Mark talking to the health minister. We

can consult the saver! You were raising lots of questions. You do

not think this is a good idea. not. I have got young children and

I approve of making certain that children are not subject to pass

its making. But there are all sorts of problems. Nanny state. Where

does it stop and how can we enforce this? Can we tied a police up on

this kind of thing because they can see a car with children in the back

and the mother or father smoking? What about the right of the

individual and individual responsibility? You saw me spiking

but it was not a child in the car, it was my friend who happens to be

a bit short. Smoking is bad and you should not be smoking in a car

because it might be dangerous for concentration, that is the argument.

That is an argument to be had and discussed. What is a child? Are we

talking about under the age of 10, 14, 16, 18? Can you stop at car?

Plenty of questions! I am looking at a government press release. It

said that a ban could be considered. Is this essentially a final

warning? They will be an information campaign. Our people

say, sort it out among yourselves? I think the health warnings are

there and we all understand about that. We understand the need to

protect children. But I agree with Angela on a lot of issues. How can

it be policed? I take that very seriously. I took the sprinkler

measures seriously. People could say that is a nanny state

intervention but the state can intervene on some issues. But

sometimes, like human rights, some issues can be confused. I would

like to see that extended. I think we have to be careful on what

legislation is proposed and introduced. It is the fast time we

have had full legislative power. I am not sure how it can be policed.

We might have police officers having to stop cars and deciding

whether or not a child is at the correct age. This has not been

thought through. His criticism has been levelled against Labour. Some

people want a politician -- policy that grabs the headlines. Is it

headline-grabbing? I hope it is not done for that reason. Wales is the

third-country to make sprinklers an essential part of domestic home

products. But we must be careful about how we make that different.

We have got lots of issues about people stopping people in cars.

Canny use making a car if you have not got children? -- cannot use

smoke in a car? -- can you be smoking in a car? We have heard

from all the parties in the Assembly apart from one. We are

with Plaid Cymru. It is time for the case of Plaid Cymru. The

legislative programme, what are the doubts? Was it worth the wait?

will have to wait and see. The devil is in the detail. At least we

had something we can scrutinise the Government against and judge

against delivery. There are some areas but I think we'll get proper

consensus. The proposals are genuinely very positive. I would be

happy to support many of the central areas. Some things will not

be contentious and people will be happy to offer support. The areas I

look at included planning, which used a key area. We wanted that

wholesale reform. It looks like the Government is looking at actually

consolidating existing legislation. Are you disappointed about that?

Slightly but we will have to point out what they mean by that. In the

meantime, plans are being adopted across Wales with wholly

inappropriate planning proposals in some respects. It could be too late

by the time his Bill becomes reality. The Environment Bill is

something I would broadly support. But the detail is really not

therefore asked to make that informed decision. You can imagine

there being things around improving and protecting the environment and

that would be very popular. But I have got to be concerns. We will

have to wait and see. We have got 21 bills coming along. It will be a

busy time in the next few weeks. We will support if we have got common

ground but as opposition, we will robustly present arguments. That is

significant even in things that appear not to be controversial. The

allotments, for example. We have already got a legal basis for

people to recede allotments but it is not enforced and people end up

waiting for years. -- recede. Will that be significant? --. -- get.

will have to find out what the Government has got in mind. But in

principle, making these things more available, that is something that

would be good. Education is important as well. We have got

legislation covering issues such as schools, teaching, university and

even the assessment of special- needs children. We were

particularly looking for how funding is provided for schools as

well. We would like to introduce that. Clearly it is a priority for

this government and we have been very clear about that. It is one of

the bills that will be looked out immediately. We welcome that sense

of urgency. But we need to find out what they have got in mind. They

must improve standards and league tables and that is something we are

concerned about. Many questions yet Before we depart, I would just

mentioned that we saw David Cameron making a statement after Prime

Minister's Questions. The inquiry will be led by this man. He is one

of the senior judges. He will work at that later in the summer. We

have got one more day in the Assembly after today and it will be

your first committee as chair. share of local government and

equalities. We are looking at a work programme and we are looking

at legislation announced yesterday. People will report to my committee

and we will have legislation to look at. And under the new

structure, we saw what was happening. It is apparently

changing. It will mean that you are locked in all day. It will be a day

and a harp spread over two weeks. This is partly to accommodate

legislation which is very important. My real concern which I have been

banging on about is that we must never lose the type of scrutiny. It

is the committee structure that is risking losing scrutiny in key

legislation. It does not matter what the Government of the day

years. Part of the reason we were elected is to represent Wales and

conduct a scrutiny. I am worried scrutiny will be drowned by

legislation. You do not want to be saying this because it will not go

down well with the public but should we have more Assembly

members to do more scrutiny? must look at what legislation will

bring. We are into an unknown area. When I took legislation through as

a backbencher, I did not have an army of civil servants and

government officials. But I remember how much time I spent on a

piece of legislation. I share Angela's concerns about scrutiny.

Nobody scrutinises on their aim and that is correct. It will have to

fit the timetable and we must have legislation. We must scrutinised

policies. Whether we have more members, that is for somebody else

to decide. We would have a vested interest, I suppose. At the end of

the day, he has decreed that and perhaps it will happened. We have

to remember and I think the public must make a decision about what

legislator they want in Cardiff Bay. If we want a strong parliament, we