14/03/2012 am.pm

Good morning and welcome to the programme. Unemployment is likely

at in Wales and West Wales and the valleys are relatively poorer than

they were a decade ago, according to official figures. Sorry to start

the day with gloomy news. We will be at Prime Minister's Questions

with Nick Clegg standing in for David current -- David Cameron. And

the Welsh Government dismisses European statistics on economic

prosperity in West Wales and the valleys as particularly misleading.

And on his final full day of -- as leader of Plaid Cymru, I will be

speaking with the former Deputy First Minister, Ieuan Wyn Jones.

I am joined by a couple of Assembly Members, Simon Thomas and Suzy

Davis. Good morning. We will speak about the Welsh Government is

missing the European cities is sticks in a moment but first we

have had the latest unemployment figures this morning -- European

statistics. Unemployment went up by 1,000 in

Wales. No one was to see rises in unemployment but there is a third

consecutive rise in employment. Economic inactivity is changing as

well. Things are starting to change but there is still a long way to go.

You will see this as good news. Simon Thomas, what is your

interpretation? It is not working. We have not had the growth we have

expected. The next Budget needs to be a Budget for growth. Also, the

Welsh have met needs to -- Welsh Government needs to change tactics.

The fact is the Government needs to be far more proactive about capital

project in Wales. The Government in Cardiff Bay

Chardonnay win-win situation. If it goes up, it blames the UK

Government. But the Government has to interact much more creatively

with Westminster. We know that Labour do not want to support the

Tory agenda but we have to interact with them to get the best deal for

Wales. There are still some issues that could be a big boost to the

economy and we need to see the Welsh Government taking the lead.

Simon thinks your Government in Westminster should be doing more.

Do you think George Osborne will change his plans in the Budget

packs we? -- next week. We have growth improvement in Wales. It was

always come to be a slow turnaround. As for the statement, we will have

to wait and see. Let's move on to these GDP figures yesterday. Simon,

I will begin with the one does. The Government has labelled those

figures relatively misleading. 10 years ago, when will started

receiving this money, GDP was in the late 70s. Now it is around 60 %

-- 68 %. Are they misleading? could argue that they are

misleading in terms of commuter terms. But the fact is these

statistics have been the same statistics for 10 years. They are

not misleading if you compare them across that range. They may be

misleading as a whole picture but if you look at 10 years ago, and

where we are now, they are not misleading. The Government is happy

to receive money on the basis of these statistics. They show clearly

that they -- there are parts of Wales that are not a struggling,

they are being ignored by both the Welsh Government and the UK

Government, in terms of building those economies. It is difficult

work to do but we need to address that. Does it show that the Welsh

Government whether it is Labour or Labour would Plaid Cymru, Labour

with liberal Democrats, has failed to make the most of these objective

One fans? They still show a pretty poor picture for parts of Wales.

There are things that can be done. For example, in South Wales West,

covered by these figures, millions of pounds have gone into the

western valleys regeneration area and they go through so many

different layers of Government and so many different organisations. So

much of that money is lost before it gets anywhere near the front

line. There are changes that could have been made. We were leaving

their for now. We will be back with you shortly. -- we will leave it

there for now. Good morning. I hope things are

going well at in the studio. We have another interesting day today.

This afternoon, questions to ministers. Today, it is the turn of

the Education Minister, Leighton Andrews and Carl Sargeant to take

those questions. We will have been other parties suggesting that there

debate. Today we have the Welsh Conservatives London to talk about

business rates. They are very concerned about businesses is

proving a great obstacle to small businesses in the current economic

climate. They want to see business rates removed from those businesses

which have a ratable value of up to �12,000 per year. They think it

will help baby -- people invest in staff and develop.

Following that debate, we have got Plaid Cymru's debate. We have --

that is marking the progress made in devolution over the past 10

years. It is quite an appropriate

Stocktake to do won the day that marks the last full day in charge

of Ieuan Wyn Jones. He has been the leader for nearly 12 years. I am

hoping to catch up with him later After that today, we have the

Liberal Democrats and fair and nominating the subject of housing

and how difficult it is to get on the housing ladder -- are they are

nominated. The main difficulty being people not being able to get

together a deposit to buy a house in the first place. The Liberal

Democrats would like to see some kind of facility whereby the state

guarantees mortgage deposits. I hope to talk to the Assembly Member

for North Wales, Aled Roberts, and later on. Then we have the short

debate,. -- it will be looking at how Wales is funded.

You can find out what is happening on Democracy Live. The address is

on the screen like now. A smorgasbord of activity in the

Chamber later on. We will start with you, Simon. Ieuan Wyn Jones's

last full day in office. He is leading a date about Wales's

constitutional position. -- debate. This allows us to recognise his

work right from the start. He has helped the Assembly grow and mature.

We want to acknowledge the work that has happened in the last 10

years. It is an opportunity for members to look at that on the way

forward as well. The time has come now, we do not talk about

constitutional change for the sake of it, we're talking about what we

can do with the tools we have in Wales. We will be getting more

tools in the next five years. The question is, how do we use them?

Stalker that economic matters. Your party has a debate on business

rates. -- let's talk about economic matters. It may be says about where

the parties are coming from. It is important. But we should stay --

say, let the commission get on with it and we can talk about the stigma.

But I take your point. It is Ieuan Wyn Jones's last day. This is not

going away. Small and medium-sized businesses are saying this will

make a huge difference to their abilities. You can see all of those

debates on Democracy Live. Have a look at that later on. That is the

agenda in Cardiff Bay. What's going on in Westminster? No David Cameron

at Prime Minister's Questions today. Nick Clegg standing in. He has been

what to -- been to watch a war game Absolutely. It has been slightly

overshadowed in terms of British newspapers by the arrests of two of

his good friends, Rebekah Brooks and her husband. Both arrested on

suspicion of perverting the course of justice. Both released without

bail. No charges. Both deny any criminal offences. But clearly

quite embarrassing for the Prime Minister to see that two of his

friends and neighbours in Oxfordshire have been actually

interviewed by the police in connection with some quite serious

allegations. He might be quite pleased he is the other side of the

Atlantic. There are some very serious

discussions to be had a date on the future of the mission in

Afghanistan. -- Today. Those discussions will be given added

impetus given the incident last week, the death of six British

soldiers. And that the weekend, the news that an American serviceman

had shot and killed 16 members of... 11 members of one family in one

village. It is not proving easy to get out

of Afghanistan. They will bring forward a pull-out date to perhaps

next year. But again, it is it difficult to announce a date and

not leave yourself a target. There will be some serious talking

between the President and the Prime Minister today. We have does it

best discussed it already. Unemployment. Overall, in the UK,

slightly up. It is a huge number out of work, particularly if you're

about to lose your job, a very serious figure. But the Government

cautiously does seem -- does see some encouraging signs. In the last

three months, the number of people finding jobs in the private sector

has actually exceeded the number losing those in the public sector.

Art is something that is good for the public -- Government's finances.

A couple of green shoots but still a long way to go.

The news breaking this morning, half-past nine, St Asaph has

achieved city status. I know how much they had talked about it and

how much they wanted it. Great excitement from the local MP.

Cheryl Gillan also played a part in this decision. St Asaph one of

three new cities in Britain to mark the Diamond Jubilee. Interestingly,

the rules initially said there was any good to be one new city. But lo

and behold, they have come up with three.

Rather like the gold jubilee celebrations 10 years ago when to

avoid offending anybody, they decided to have call of the UK. In

that case, it was Newport. St Asaph will finally be known as more than

a place where you went to school! Thank you for the time being. We'll

catch up with you during Prime Minister's Questions. Why don't you

get in touch with us? The address I read that out every week. I do

not know why I got it wrong! Let's have a chat about city status.

Wrexham and stink -- St Asaph were going head-to-head. It was his

surprise to me. I do not know if it makes a difference. Wrexham is

still a town in north-east Wales. I always thought that St Asaph was a

city. It is an ecclesiastical City. It has a lovely cathedral. A lovely

place to visit as well. Are you pleased to hear that news this

morning? It is lovely. I thought it already was a city. But it is an

ecclesiastical City. You are just kicks -- explain that. Wrexham has

been given bilingual town status. Congratulations to St Asaph. It is

live been used. -- lovely news. wish I had put some money on it,

considering how much money and lost Tomorrow, the UK government

launches its plans for same-sex marriage. The issue has already

caused controversy with some religious groups. Cardinal Keith

O'Brien, the head of the Catholic Church in Scotland, called the Plan

A grotesque. Our reporter has been speaking to two Welsh MPs about the

plan. Senior members of the Church say

the sanctuary of marriage should not be touched. That is not the

view of the UK government. Joining the art to MPs -- joining the are

two MPs. Firstly, this is a Lib Dem policy, you could say. It has been

a long time coming, why is that? think the government is taking its

time to make sure it is completely right. Clearly, this is a

contentious issue with strongly held feelings on both sides, and it

is important the details on the consultation paper are right.

should the marriage laws be reformed? Same-sex couples can have

civil partnerships can -- which give them the same rights in terms

of inheritance and things. There a lot of very loving same-sex couples

who feels strongly that they want to show that publicly, within

marriage rather than just a civil partnership. We're not talking

about imposing on religious organisations, like the Catholic

Church or the Church of England, that they have to allow them. This

is about civil marriage but allowing same-sex couples the same

right to express their love for each other that we currently allow

heterosexual current -- couples. Simon, do you think they should

have the right to marry? I think we should take time over the

consultation, we should not compel anybody in this particular area.

But the government has made a big thing about the value of marriage

and it does not make sense to exclude certain categories from

that arrangement. I am fully behind it. And what do you say to the

Cardinal's description that gay marriage would be grotesque? Well,

I'm afraid he's out of sync with 21st Century Society. I know this

is controversial and not everybody is absolutely certain about it,

that is why there is a consultation. But there are plenty its -- plenty

of examples of a very loving couples and there should be no

stigma attached to that. It is mystifying, what the cardinal said.

It is divisive and discriminatory and totally out of place today.

What do you think about those comments? Obviously, people within

religious organisations feel strongly about marriage remaining

untouched as a tease. They also feel strongly about divorce and

they feel that has no place in a religious organisation, which is

why divorcees are not allowed to remarry in most churches. That does

not stop us from allowing people who are divorced from getting

remarried in a civil service, and that is recognised by the Church. I

feel the same applies here. There is no proposal to force religious

organisations to allow same-sex marriage, but I feel some of the

language that is being used is rather over the top. I think we're

talking about people who want to get married and believe it is an

important bedrock in society and want to be part of that. This will

not underlie marriage, this will enable them to become part of it.

Simon, Conservatives have been promised a free vote on the issue.

There are a number of Tory backbenchers who are unhappy with

this idea. How strong do you think the voice of opposition really is?

I think there are few, not that many, actually. Most people in both

the Lib Dem and Conservative parties realise that people should

be able to express their views loudly if they so wish. I'm

confident that at the end of it, the majority view in here will be

for this to go through. So even though there would be a free vote

for Conservatives, you think the majority would stick with David

Cameron and the government? I think if it was a whip to vote for a free

vote, actually, the result would be much the same. The majority would

take the view that this is a measure which we should be

encouraging. Thank you very much. Let us see what the view of the

Assembly members is. Suzy Davies, what is your view? I am with him on

this one, especially in terms of legal rights and responsibilities.

There is no difference at the moment anyway. But when you walk on

to the territory of religion, the subject becomes more complicated,

and as was said earlier, there will be no obligation on any religion to

insure that gay marriage takes place within their church. But in

terms of equal opportunities, it is obvious. Simon, the comments of the

cardinal really threw fuel on the fire of this debate, didn't they?

It is unfortunate, what he is saying. I think that is an

unfortunate word to use - grotesque. I think civil ceremonies should be

open to all couples of whichever orientation. When you get a

religious marriages, that is a matter for the church or mosque or

whatever concerned, and they have their own at ceremonies. We just

have to be clear about what is applied in each case and the

Cardinal should know better than to address the issues we are dealing

with here, which are the civil, secular ceremonies. There does seem

to be consensus, certainly from politicians if not clergymen.

I think there is. All parties one is to go ahead on the basis of

equality. I don't think anyone wants there to be a difference, a

material difference, between the sort of partnership you have with

somebody whether they are the same sex or the opposite sex. I don't

agree with the teachings of the Church but it is up to them to

promulgate the teaching if they want. That is the difference

between a secular society and a society dominated by any religion.

I think especially in Wales we don't have an established church so

it -- so we are even in a better position to try to differentiate

between Church and State. Suzy Davies, we have seen the Archbishop

of Wales giving opinions on organ donation and other issues. I think

in some cases the opinions of the judge a welcome, and in others not

so much! Well, at any member of the clergy may have an opinion on

political matters, but Simon is right. As lawmakers, we have to

make laws on the basis of civic society, because that is where our

area of influences. Religions have their own area and their own way of

operating. That is why this issue is so complicated. We will be back

for a chat in a moment. Now, back to mark in the Oriel with news on

today's debates. Yes, it is all about housing, the

crucial issue of how people get on the lousing -- the housing ladder

when it is so difficult to get a deposit. I'm joined by a Lib Dem MP

here. That is the problem, isn't it - deposits. The Lib Dems want to

see the state somehow or enabling a guarantee of a mortgage deposit?

Yes, there are local authorities throughout Wales authorising their

own schemes, but we are looking for the Welsh government to set up a

national scheme to tackle this problem. We have issues at the

moment regarding the supply of housing, where lot of developers

are land banking. But after that, the issue of affordability. Clearly,

banks and building societies are clear and -- are not providing

mortgages at rates people can afford. And this would have a

knock-on effect as well for the housing industry? Yes, it could be

seen as a mean of unlocking some of the problems we are currently

experiencing. Gone are the days when you could get a 90 or 95%

mortgage. We currently have many banks looking at perhaps 30 or 40%

- 50% in the most general cases. And in reality without a government

scheme, the reality is most young families are unable to afford that

level of deposit. And that then leads to issues on housing waiting

lists. I suppose many will sympathise with the predicament of

those people. But they may be concerned about the tax payer

taking a risk for them - do you sympathise with those concerns?

What we are calling for today is a look at people who want to get onto

the housing ladder and also more action from the Welsh government

with regard to affordable homes. Clearly, that involves homes for

rent for those people are who perhaps with hindsight would never

have gotten into home ownership and perhaps with the bubble that has

recently burst should never have gotten into it. There is also a

question about what local authorities can do about council

tax. I gather you are looking at council tax on empty properties,

for example, presumably as a way for there to be an incentive for

those properties to come back into use? Very much so. We're saying

there are examples of good practice in Wales. I am proud that in my own

region we have a good record of bringing up empty properties into

use. But that needs to be copied throughout Wales. As I said, there

is a whole basket of issues that we are calling on the government to

address on a national basis so that we can insure the housing sector is

responsive to the needs of young families. Getting back to that key

idea of the mortgage deposit, is there more big problem here in

Wales than elsewhere in the UK? I know it is something the UK

government is looking out across the UK, David Cameron was talking

about it the other day. But here in Wales we know that our housing

stock is not particularly good. Properties that we have are in many

cases older than they are elsewhere. Yes, but what we are saying is the

vast majority of deposit schemes actually getting new homes. So

there. There is we need to get a head start on all the properties.

There are up risk elements, but that is what they need to consider.

Do you think there will be a degree of cross-party support on this?

think the opposition parties in particular are keen to see movement

on housing. Whether the Housing Minister himself, given his track

record up to now, will actually go to the full extent of considering

this on a national level is a matter we will have to see this

afternoon. Thank you very much for your time.

We will be off to the Commons in a moment. We will have a quick

guessing game with a guess about what might come up. Win him -- we

know Nick Clegg might be standing in for David Cameron. Would you

like to see him fall flat on his face? Of course not. He is in the

Prime Minister's shoes today and I expect him to do well. Willie get

grief from some of the Conservative backbenchers? -- will he get grief?

I suppose this will be an opportunity. Simon? Ed Miliband

will be facing up against Nick Clegg. He seems to have had a bit

more joy lately. What is in store for an end today? Ed Miliband has

had a couple of good run out. It will be difficult with Nick Clegg.

I'm sure he will be attacked for not turning up to the important NHS

rally. I think what will be interesting is whether Ed Miliband

can drive a wedge between Clegg's position on the reforms and some of

his Lib Dem backbenchers. I think Yesterday in Parliament there was

criticism of the bill, so it will be interesting to see about that.

think it will be Harriet Harman, actually, today. The two deputies

against each other! That doesn't mean Ed Miliband won't get

attacked! I think Afghanistan will also come up in international terms,

that is that subject of the debate at the moment between Barack Obama

and David Cameron. Do you think the Conservatives on the backbenchers

will be worried that Nick Clegg might just be forwarding some of

the Lib Dem successes in government rather than Conservative ones?

all successes are coalitions excesses! Obviously, Nick Clegg

will have his own particular questions today. I don't know if he

will spend too much time on the housing reforms. That story has

been done to death. I think Labour think they are getting some joy for

it. Well, are they? I don't know if people watching it will be terribly

interested in to it -- in it today. But it began as Dan is likely to

come up and we may get something on the employment figures today.

Bachman -- Afghanistan is likely to come up. Well, let us crossover to

Let's cross over to Westminster. Good afternoon.

You're just watching the end of International Development questions.

The Right Honourable Gentleman has a long and distinguished experience

in this area. He is entirely right. We will be meeting on Monday. I

have seen for myself be way in which they are working to alleviate

suffering and promote the matter in -- elsewhere.

I have been asked to reply. The Prime Minister is meeting with

Barack Obama. I am sure the house will be wishing to send our deepest

condolences to the family and friends of the servicemen who died

They were all from the third Battalion of the Yorkshire Regiment.

These were men of outstanding courage and selflessness. This

tragic incident will be long remembered by a our nation. It

reminds us of the immense danger our armed forces regularly endure.

Mr Speaker, we also -- we are also deeply shocked at the number of

Afghan civilians killed and wounded on Sunday morning. We send our

sincere sympathies to the victims and families affected by this

terrible incident. This morning, I had meetings and I will have

further such meetings later today. I would like to associate myself

with the Deputy Prime Minister's comments about the tragic events in

Afghanistan. I am sure that members on both sides of the House express

our deepest sympathies to the families who have lost loved ones

at this distressing time. Today, the Prime Minister is in

America where unemployment is coming down, the economy is growing.

In Britain, unemployment is at its highest for 17 years. The economy

is flat mining. Can the Deputy Prime Minister

explain what has gone wrong? What went wrong was the Labour

government for 13 years. They created the most unholy mess in

2008 and we are still having to clean it up. The only way to get

the economy moving is to fix the deficit, gets bank let pass bank's

lending money again and making sure we have a tax and benefit system

that pays people to work. We are already introducing a large

set of measures that have removed a lot of unnecessary clutter on the

statute book. Any further opportunities to do so, we would

The these men died in tragic serve -- circumstances, or serving our

country with bravery and determination. Their deaths

reminders of the great sacrifices our and first is make on our behalf.

Our thoughts are with their families. By join with the Deputy

Prime is in expressing our horror of the appalling murder in

Afghanistan on Sunday of 16 civilians, in children nine

children. We all deplore this crime and express our deepest condolences.

Today's figures show on employment up and the hardest hit are young

people looking for work. And women being thrown out of work. The

Deputy Prime Minister says the Liberal Democrats are making a

difference in this government. With more than one million women looking

for work, or what difference does he believe he has made to those

women? Of course, these figures, any increase on an employment is

disappointing. It is a personal tragedy for any one losing their

job on their families. She should be careful not to pretend this is a

problem that was invented by this government. Let's remember that the

unemployment of women went up by 24 % under Labour. Youth unemployment

went up by 40 %. I suggest we all need to work

together to bring unemployment down. When we left government,

unemployment was coming down and their economic policy is not only

driving it up but it means that they will have to borrow more. It

is hurting but it certainly is not working. For all his bluster, the

truth is that having five Liberal Democrat -- Liberal Democrats

seated round the Cabinet table has made no difference whatsoever.

Listen to what the Business Secretary has said on economic

policy, this government has no compelling vision. These days, no

one agrees with Nick Clegg but does he agree with this does Vince

Cable? It is worth considering deny some of the details. Behind the

headline figures, long time and applying it actually came down. --

unemployment. The number of new jobs created in the private sector

outstripped the number of jobs left in the public sector. Under her

government, the Labour government sucked up to the city of London and

over relied on jobs in the public sector. We are now having to remedy

those mistakes and we are creating new jobs in the private sector.

He is complacent about unemployment under his government. And the

Liberal Democrats are making no difference on unemployment, just as

they are making no difference on the NHS. When it comes to the NHS,

the Deputy Prime Minister obviously thinks he is doing a stunning job.

Can he explain why he has failed to persuade the doctors, the nurses,

the midwives, be paediatricians, the physicians, the

physiotherapists and the patients? The Labour Party used to believe in

reform. Now they believe in a staff in the NHS of cash and failing to

perform -- starving. Order. We must hear the response from the Deputy

Prime Minister. Indeed. In her own manifesto, it said, to safeguard

the NHS in tough fiscal times, we need sustained reform. The Labour

Party was right then and is wrong now. What happened?

We are proud of what Labour did when we were in power. More doctors,

more nurses, no waiting times, greater patient satisfaction and Mr

Speaker, no one believes them. No wonder he cannot convince those who

macro work in the health service. He cannot persuade his own party.

People are still be -- against this Bill because it has not changed one

bit. It is still a top-down reorganisation. Order. By selling

moment ago that the Deputy Prime Minister's response must be heard -

- I said a moment ago. This peerless delay top-down

reorganisation. It is still going to cost the NHS a fortune. -- this

deal is still a top-down reorganisation. It is clear the

Deputy Prime Minister will not stand up for the NHS. The only

thing he stands up for his one the Prime Minister walks in the room!

Mr Speaker, some of her colleagues must think the Liberal Democrats

make a difference because they were handing out leaflets at our

conference in Gateshead. Her leader was throwing a sickie and going to

watch Hull City play football instead!

She says she is proud of their record. Issued out of the fact her

government spent �250 million of taxpayers' money on sweetheart

deals with the private sector which did not help a single NHS patient?

If she prowled of the fact that under the 2006 Act -- a sheep out

of the fact, it was the privatise as charter... In she proud of that?

In these matters, the Prime Minister or the Deputy Prime

Minister does the answering. That is the situation. We will compare

what our have demanded on the NHS with what his government is doing

any day. -- our government will stop. Her it is within his power to

stop this bill. Next Monday, the Bill reaches its final stage in the

House of Lords. There are 19 Lib Dem peer has. -- 90. William

structure Lee Williams antes Piers to vote the bill her. The response

must be heard. It is irresponsible to increase NHS spending. They do

not believe for more money for the NHS. We do. They want sweetheart

deals with the private sector. We do not. They presided over

inequality in the NHS. Again, we are making a statutory obligation

in this Bill to deliver a more equal outcome on the NHS. They

failed to deliver that in 13 years. Absolute rubbish! And in

undermining the NHS and making Shirley Williams vote for it, he

has trashed two national treasures. He did not need to sign the bill

but he did. He could stop the bill but he won't. He says the Liberal

Democrats make a difference but they do not. What has happened to

that fine liberal tradition? They must be turning in their graves.

The party of William Gladstone, the party of David Lloyd George. Now

the party of Nick Clegg. I know she has the Prix de their script which

she sticks to religiously, but it is worth having a question and

answer session -- pre-prepared. What we are doing on this side of

the house, the two parties that have come together in the coalition,

is sorting out the banking system which she left in a mess. Sorting

out the public finances which she left in a mess. Sorting out the

economy which she left in a mess. Stop the a cart -- arbitrary

privatisation of the NHS which she left in a mess. In government, the

Labour Party ran out of ideas. In opposition, they neither have money

nor ideas. My Right Honourable Friend might be aware of figures

released this year -- this week, showing there has been some

progress towards the target of 15 % of women on boards by 2015. What

can our coalition government to to ensure that we meet this target and

in which our boards with the diversity of talents that we as a

I think there has been excellent progress to get women on to what

boards. Everybody now agrees there has been real consensus that having

more women it is good for all the companies involved. I very much

hope we will continue to apply the right kind of voluntary pressure to

see that increase further in the future. I sincerely hope the Deputy

Prime Minister enjoyed our famous nor the stores fatality and the

support of Northumbria Police at his spring conference in Gateshead.

Could he now tell the House when that the 3,000 extra police he

promised at the general election will be imposed? Mr Speaker, as her

own party acknowledges, the police need to make savings. I think the

key thing is not exactly what the total number is, but where are...

Order! I don't know what members are having for breakfast but the

deputy's answers must be heard. Where police officers are deployed.

Over the past few years, far too many were filling up paperwork

rather than out on the streets where they belong. Does my right

honourable friend share my concerns that this Parliament should focus

on cutting the deficit, promoting growth and getting people off

welfare into work? How shall I explain our priorities discussing

the House of Lords to them? suspect in the same way that he

will no doubt explain to his constituents that there are other

priorities like changing the boundaries, changing the boundaries

of constituents, which I know is close to his heart and that of his

party. I think governments and Parliaments can do more than one

thing at once. I also believe it is a simple democratic principle that

people who make the laws of the land should be elected by people

who have to obey the laws of the land. Mr Deputy Speaker, I mean, Mr

Speaker. My apologies. Studies show that it is crucial the NHS works

closely with social care with regard to elderly people. Can I ask

the deputy Prime Minister while -- why he is still cheerleading for a

bill that scraps trust and that co- operation and puts the future

health of all people, including my constituents, at risk? Mr Speaker,

I am backing a bill which for the first time includes new statutory

obligations to integrate social and healthcare. He is quite right, it

is one of the abiding failings in our health service, these two

services not being properly integrated. They have not been much

integrated over the past 10 years, that is what we're trying to do now.

Sadly, we are creating health boards which will bring their

concerns together. -- secondly. Speaker, I congratulate the

Government's on its efforts of addressing the in appropriate

prices of Algol in supermarkets. But does the Deputy Prime Minister

agree with me the safest place to drink is in the community pub - the

beer is a lowest-ranked drink. Will he take his colleagues are for IBM

tell them not to put up the duty on the great British point? Mr Speaker,

all those questions are up to be answered at the time of the Budget

but I'm sure many members agreed with the sentiment that we should

support community pubs. Is the Deputy Prime Minister aware that

now that the gang are old Tories are gallivanting around America he

has a chance to shine? Now, what does he really, really think about

this Murdoch sleaze and the latest developments, the Prime Minister of

the riding borrowed police horses and employing Andy Coulson in the

heart of government? Man to man, what does he really think? Give

them a chance to separate him from the ranks of Tories behind him.

Come on, be a man! Mr Speaker... Order! Order! Let us hear the

answer! Mr Speaker, we had to wait a while for him to get going, but

it was great once he did. I think we are soon going to celebrate, it

that is the right Burke, 42 years of the honourable member's presence

in this house, and I am delighted to see that in all that time, he

has not mellowed one bit. Will the Deputy Prime Minister join me and

my rightful friend the Member for charms that in congratulating the

citizens of Chelmsford on their newly acquired status following Her

Majesty's announcement that it is to be a city? Does he agree that

this is entirely -- entirely appropriate in an Olympic year,

when Essex is also looking forward to hosting the mountain biking

competition during the Olympics? am not sure if my honourable friend

the Colchester would entirely share that sentiment. We are all aware of

the rivalry. But I can announce the results of the Civic competition in

honour of Her Majesty's Jubilee. St Asaph has also been given the right

to call itself a city. I know a -- I know there will be disappointment

in other cities and towns. Before the general election, the Deputy

Prime Minister said he was profoundly hostile to the closure

of factories. Now, 1,700 disabled people are losing their jobs

because of the closure of a 36. What difference has he made?

Speaker, as the honourable lady will know, this is a consequence of

a review conducted by the head of the UK Disability Forum. Her

conclusions are supported by organisations like mental charities.

I do not want to disagree with them. This is their conclusion. This is

what they think we should be doing. They believe that segregated

employment, which was started in the aftermath of the Second World

War, is not the best way to promote the issues and the interest of

disabled people in this country. Last weekend, the Deputy Prime

Minister spoke about the need for a tycoon it tax. Does he intend that

to include individuals who claim that they want tax raised on the

rich yet set up companies so they only pay 20% on their income, such

as Ken Livingstone? It is worth dwelling on the explanation

provided by Ken Livingstone for his exotic tax arrangements. I quote

from an interview he made just this weekend: "I get loads of money, all

from different sources, and I give it to an accountant and they manage

it. That is modern socialism." in September 2010, I raised with the

Prime Minister be case of a college in my constituency that lost �4

million following the closure of the Regional Development Agency.

asked the Prime Minister for a hand up, not a handout. Last week, that

college was officially opened, yet 18 months on there is no sign of

progress in addressing the shortfall. As the Deputy Prime

Minister has said, there should be no barriers to people's talent and

aspiration, so will he help give the young people of Lancashire and

hand up? Of course ministers will be more than willing to look into

the case of a college. Colleges are unbelievably important in providing

skills and support to young people seeking to get the right

qualifications to get into work. Working successfully with the

government not least to provide a hugely successful apprenticeship

programme, the largest expansion ever in a country, I am more than

happy to make sure the ministers look at the case she mentions.

After bid 2004 -- whilst the GLA has protected vulnerable workers,

it has also contributed to the burdens of business. Can I be

assured that any cuts in red tape will not leave workers unprotected?

Mr Speaker, I hear what he says. It is an important issue and

importance to get the issue -- the balance right. The gang masters

authority must address issues in business for any manners. --

business friendly manners. I would like to congratulate the city of

Perth for its city status. My honourable friend will know of the

cross party support that has led to this. Can I thank the palace and

him for organising this tremendous award? Those other kind of

questions I like! I think it is a good thing. -- those are the kind

of questions. I would like to extend congratulations to all the

people of Perth who worked on a cross-party basis to get this award

today. One part of Cheltenham is getting a lot of attention

regarding green spaces this week. But others will be at risk unless

we combine economic success with tough controls to protect the

countryside. Can my right honourable friend reassure us that

a truly green at planning framework is still a safe bet? The government

will be polishing -- publishing its national framework shortly. I think

it is important we do everything to promote growth, because we need

growth and jobs and new homes, particularly for like -- for young

families. But of course that should be tempered by social and

environmental considerations, and that balance will be properly

reflected in the planning framework when it is published. On Monday,

the Housing Minister told me and the House that the government had

no plans to introduce rent controls in the private sector. Is the

deputy Prime Minister where that the rising private sector rents in

central London, the capping of housing benefits, means in effect

that many families on benefit are being forced out? It is a process

of social cleansing. Will he commit to an examination of the case of

Private rent controls? As he knows, at the same time as announcing the

restraint on housing benefit budget, which was a commitment in his own

party's manifesto, to bring that part of the benefits system under

control, we have a company that with a major fund to deal with hard

cases. We have also unveiled a number of measures which should

lead to a significant increase in affordable homes. It is a lack of

supply of affordable homes which is the underlying problem in London

and elsewhere. Changes to child benefit will mean a single income

family earning �43,000 a year when one parent is working well

subsidise a couple earning �80,000 a year. Is this fair? I been it is

fair that someone earning far beyond the average should not be

subsidised been receiving child benefit from people on much lower

incomes. He does raise a perfectly valid point, which is the cut-off

point can create these anomalies. We have all said we will look for a

pragmatic way of implementing this in a sensitive matter. The Deputy

Prime Minister will be aware of the serious incidents in my

constituency regarding three explosive devices planted since

Friday, the most recent adjacent to local schools. Will he join me in

condemning these attacks which bring misery to the community? Can

he assure the sows that in the absence of the international

monitoring commission, the UK government will continue to monitor

closely any linkages between such Of course, I am sure I speak on

behalf of the entire House. The attacks endangered the lives of

everyone in the surrounding areas, including young children. Totally

reprehensible. All of these attacks are now being investigated. There

is no indication at present that these are terrorist attacks.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. The European Union is presently consulting on

changes to the rules governing state aid in assisted areas. The

Government has shown commitment by establishing an enterprise zone in

order to attract large businesses. But changes will restrict matters.

And the Deputy Prime Minister assure me that the Government will

fight the proposals? I'm delighted the Enterprise Zone is now taking

shape. It will be a huge boost, not least through investment from major

investors in the renewable energy sector in that part of the world,

but I he understand what he says about the reviewing of those rules.

I think it is from 2014 onwards. We are extremely mindful that we do

not undermine excellent work taken place in North Lincolnshire. Best

taking place. The Ministry of Justice announced today it had

given to new contracts worth... This company has been under

investigation by the police and the Department of Work and Pensions.

Since I have been raising concerns about it, I have received e-mails

from members of the public alleging fraud and bad practice. Is the

Government going to continue handing out public money to them?

She raises a very serious issue. The police investigation into the

allegations of fraud... These contracts were entered into by the

previous governor. We have launched our own audit of the existing

contracts. If there is any evidence of systematic abuse, then of course,

we would end all contracts. The six British servicemen killed in

Afghanistan last week will be repatriated next Tuesday. They

would include three of my constituents. At this difficult

time for the families, will be Deputy Prime Minister assure me and

my current -- constituents that everything is being done by the

Government to support the families? I know how strongly he must feel

about this terrible accident. Three constituents of his have sadly lost

their lives. Everything is being done in quite difficult

circumstances to make sure that the bodies are returned to the families

as well as possible. Has the Deputy Prime Minister considered the

implications of the Treasury's plant changes in the controlled

foreign companies rules which will in centre vies multinationals

having recourse to tax havens? Will this perverse and... Change

been dealt with? It is incredibly complicated once you get into the

detail but it is something that which of course was not dealt

within the last 13 years and we are now preparing to look into it.

my right honourable friend join with me in welcoming the launch

today of the action plan setting out how we can achieve more

adoptions more quickly? Does he agree that making adoption work

well everyone should be the priority of all of us who have the

interests of vulnerable people at heart?

It is so frustrating for couples and parents who want to adopt

children and also not good for the children concerned when they are

inordinately delayed -- delays. That is why it is a very good thing.

Denouncement made on it so late in the adoption process will now

indeed happen -- the announcement. Clearly, that letter has been

issued under the current system. But he does touch on a very serious

issue. It is one that every single developed society around faces. We

have healthcare systems that were not designed for a mass of the

ageing population. -- massively. That is why we need to make sure

that they are kept well and strong in as much as possible in their

homes and in their communities. That is what this NHS bill is about.

Students at Comprehensive School are just as likely to study A-level

history as their private school punk -- counterparts. But they are

only half as likely to study maths or physics. What is the Government

going to do about the social mobility issue that we have in the

sciences and does he support the proposed Sir Isaac Newton Mathew

school in Norfolk to help address this issue? She highlights an

incredibly important point. But as one of the reasons why the new

English Baccalaureate does place a great deal of emphasis on those

scientific disciplines. It is why we protected the size budget, in

order to send a clear signal that we find it -- value sciences. We

need more youngsters, particularly from disadvantaged backgrounds,

taking a maths and science courses. He says the Health Bill would be

going through unamended without the Liberal Democrats but will he

listen to people up and down the country who know the real truth

that the Tories would not be getting their shambolic pill at all

without him and his MPs propping them up? -- Bill. I would have

thought he would have welcomed legislation which outlaws the

practice indulged in in industrial scale by his party of giving

sweetheart deals to the private sector.

Seven minutes of injury time from the Speaker and that brings an end

to Nick Clegg's 37 minutes in the spotlight. Uninteresting couple of

questions from the Conservatives. Thank you, David. No one can say he

did not have a fair crack of the whip. He had plenty of time.

An assessment of who came off best? I think he looked very comfortable

standing in for David Cameron. He equipped himself quite well. He was

answering without referring to any briefs. He was taking it off the

cuff. On that basis, he did well. In the -- will people be persuaded

about his arguments on the NHS reform in England?

Suzy Davis, the Liberal Democrats in their conference last week gave

the Government and declared a bit of a kick up the backside over the

NHS bill. -- Nick Clegg. But he stood up and defended it. Were you

please do see that? I would not have expected him to do anything

else. He has made his position clear. Obviously, he had a bit of a

tough time in his own conference but in the House of Commons today,

he stuck to his guns are and he absolutely needed to us well. -- as

well. There was also a question which may

have to the casual observer looked and friendly. Dennis Skinner asking

him to make his position clear on News International? You have been

in the House of Commons, tell us what is it like to be on the end of

a Dennis Skinner tongue-lashing. That is the sort of thing that can

happen in Parliament. We do not really do it in the Assembly. He

was very challenging, even, to Nick Clegg. He did not address the issue.

But there are links there, there is no doubt. There is an issue about

senior politicians's links to senior journalists. And the tickly

one News company. Over-rate period of time, Hutt -- over a period of

time, that will be addressed. Investigations are going ahead. I

noticed that it is still dominating the news agenda. Is it a question

of broadcasting speaking to itself? There are other things going on.

can confirm that Plaid Cymru has never had a pyjama party.

What about a police horse? Certainly not.

Coming up, we worship the Business Minister, Edwina Hart, on the

latest European GDP statistics on economic prosperity in West Wales

and the valleys. Battles in of fall. Time to go back

Worrying news for disabled people working for Remploy.

Many of those employees have been at the Senedd today. What was that

about? It was not pushing for public support, procurement and so

on. Since then, the Department of Work and Pensions as basically

tried to sabotage the event by not allowing time off for workers to

come in. Everyone has come in and do their own steam. They have taken

days off to come here and promote in their own time the work that

they do want to gain support for Remploy. What is the latest? What

is the latest on the discussions between the Welsh Government and

the UK demand on supporting those people moving forward? Leighton

Andrews met with Maria Miller yesterday and asked for Remploy to

basically be devolved to Wales. And then we could actually look at our

own solutions to try and save the jobs. As I understand it, that has

been refused. Part of the pressure and the campaign now is to start to

say, if you do not want Remploy, if you do not think it can succeed,

give it over to us and we will put all our resources and support into

saving the work of the workers. Is there an argument that the very

understandably emotive elements of this, people possibly losing their

jobs and people with difficulties to deal within the first place,

blind us to the bigger picture? The Government would say these

factories are losing a lot of money. The accountants have said that in

the next financial year, the ones in Wales could lose �6 million. The

Government is also ring-fencing the budget for disabled people. Might

that be better used helping individuals?

Off A 300 or so Remploy workers in Wales, if they lose their jobs, the

vast majority will never work again. How do we know? Those jobs are not

exist out there. When the last batch of Lent -- Remploy closures

took place, all of the cities six have shown that the majority of

those workers have never been able to find jobs and settle down into

jobs. The other point which is a very important one is the losses of

Remploy. It is perfectly true that the model of Remploy, the way it is

one, the lack of a proper business plan, the lack of any real

functionality between various unions, marketing, it is in March -

- major contributor to that. What we should be doing for Wales is we

can produce a commercially acceptable and viable business

model without some of the overheads and creating jobs and turning over

basically the costs of the business. Give it to us, let us have a go at

it. I am sure there is a model where. I have already been in

discussions with various organisations, companies, co-

operative centres, various bodies, all the evidence we have got about

how Remploy works at the moment is that the business is good, the

model is wrong. Let us in Wales change the model and develop the

business with a new model, give its support from Moscow mud and through

procurement and I think we can save the jobs and create a commercially

viable out that for the future -- from the Welsh Government. The do

you feel there is more mileage in We have to press the argument.

Without the funding, we haven't got a chance and we can't even stop the

ball rolling. So really the starting point has to be pressure

on the UK government to let us have a go, let us see what we can do to

save these jobs. Thank you for joining us. Tomorrow, Plaid Cymru

will have a new leader. We don't know who it will be yet. Elin Jones,

Leanne Wood and Dafydd Elis-Thomas are all hoping to replace Ieuan Wyn

Jones. Yesterday was his final First Minister's Question Time as

leader of Plaid Cymru. You have already acknowledged and accepted

that this is the very last question, question number 639. As you

suggested, some of the answers have been comprehensive and I am sure

you will agree some of the questions have also been

comprehensive and Wise. May I take this opportunity to thank everyone

for their courtesy? It has been a huge privilege for me to take such

a key role in Welsh politics and to play a part in the development of

the first Parliament that Wales has had the six centuries. Nobody could

ask for more than that. Well, I don't believe that I can endorse

everything he has said, but may I it once again say that I wish him

well for that future years. If I made to pay tribute to the leader

for the service he has given to the country and to this institution,

which he is right to say has matured since 1999. The people of

Anglesey a great for you that serve them with such deliverance -- such

diligence as well. I was grateful to receive such kind words when I

was elected here in the Assembly and a very much look forward to

continue working with you in this institution for the betterment of

Wales. I would also like to wish you well for your remaining years

on the backbenches. I suspect and hope that you will be just as

troublesome as previous leaders who have moved to the backbenchers have

been to the people that follow them. Oh, yes! Can I just add my personal

thanks? I think he had leads -- he has led his party with charm and

wit. I look forward to you being on the back bench and setting a good

example to the others. That is the presiding Officer Rosemary Butler

leading tributes. But he is still here, I think he is with Mark

Wright now. Yes, welcome to the programme. Quite a bittersweet

moment for you, is it? No, we have had a long time to prepare for it

and obviously we made the right decision in my view, by not rushing

to a decision immediately after the decision. We waited for the dust to

settle, as it were. The party then had a thorough review of its

strategy and machinery and now it has an opportunity to an elected --

to elect a new leader. You were leader for nearly 12 years. The

party has changed remarkably in that time, what you see as York

foremost achievement as leader? Well, it is difficult to be precise

about a single thing because so much has changed in Wales since I

became leader. If you remember, in 2000, this was still a very shaky

institution. We had a vote of no conference -- confidence, we were

still getting used to the new arrangements here. We had to manage

expectations, adapts to post devolution politics. But I think

the growth immaturity and strength and the ability of the institution

to represent the people of Wales has been remarkable and I hope

people think that I had a small part to play in that. It is true to

say nobody else has managed to get Plaid Cymru into government. We are

used to that now, but at the time it was quite a crucial moment.

People thought that it just couldn't be countenanced.

Absolutely. We have always considered that a coalition

government might happen at some time because nobody has ever had a

clear majority in this place. So coalition politics was something we

have thought about, obviously. When we came here in 1999 we hadn't

prepared ourselves for that so it couldn't happen immediately, but by

2007, I in the party had recognised that to become a party of

government it probably needed to share power with other parties. I

think going through that experience has been immensely helpful. Now,

the next leader won't have the difficulty of trying to persuade

the party that there should be done. Do you feel that the new leader

needs to have an eye on a pragmatic approach to getting into power

whenever possible? Well, I think any leader would like to be the

largest party entering into a coalition and that should be the

aspiration of the next leader. But it is also important to recognise

that if you have a set of policies, there is no point in having them

unless you can put them into practice. It was a good test for us

to understand all policies we had prepared for all his eight years

and opposition. We put them into practice and some of them worked

extremely well. So it is good experience for the party. We you

personally disappointed that, having reached that promised land

of government, you then did not get the electoral benefit after that?

You lost seats. Yes, we did, but I think we learned from those lessons

so we won't repeat what happened in 2011. Remember, towards the end of

that period, we had the referendum which turned this into a law-making

Assembly with full powers. That is a great achievement because it

would not have happened. Briefly, what would be your word of advice

to your successor? And what are your own plans for the future?

only advice I can properly give is the new leader should be themselves.

Don't try to be something you're not. People try to pursue in a

particular direction. It is impossible for you to be something

you are not. Be yourself and follow your own instincts are often

because often they will be proved to be right. As for me, I have

things planned but I'm not sure I'm in a position to talk about them

just yet. Very intriguing! For now, thank you very much and all the

best. We will have him back on the programme to tell us what his plans

are when you can talk about it. Now, the Welsh government has dismissed

official European GDP statistics on economic prosperity in West Wales

and the valleys as particularly misleading. The enterprise minister

Edwina Hart was in front of the enterprise and business committee

this morning. It was a general ministerial scrutiny session with

questions across her prop for earlier but the issue of the GDP

statistics was inevitably raised. just wondered whether the minister

would like to make a comment regarding those GDP figures and

your understanding of them? Yes, obviously we looked with interest

at those figures and the labour market statistics which also came

up this morning. I am more than happy to cover both of them in

terms of the committee. I think we have to be frank, we are very

disappointed with the GDP figures, there is no messing about on that

issue. But we do have to put it in context, I think. There is a

relative decline in performance in West Wales and the Ballets which is

largely accounted for by the relative decline accorded to the UK

as a whole in statistical terms. Since the start of the programme in

2001, GDP per head in Wales and the Ballets has kept pace with the UK

as a whole and I think it would be wrong to completely attribute the

decline to Welsh policy failure. And in terms of GDP it can be quite

misleading - I was discussing with my senior officials earlier in

terms of the area, because of the flow of commuters. I am happy to

cover some of that ground now. The committee will be well aware of

some of these issues. GDP figures there you get for small areas in

particular may not be the best indicator of performance. That does

not take anything away from what the minister said - clearly we

would want to see those figures going up. But employment rates and

disposable household incomes and other measures tend to be a fairer

representation of the income of small areas. Certainly,

historically, whelks -- West Wales and the valleys have performed much

better on those measures. If I can quickly go to the labour market

statistics - for the third month in a row, employment has continued to

rise in Wales. This is against the falling UK market as a whole last

year. I think we need to look at the volatility of the figures. It

is encouraged but I don't think it indicate a master it changed.

Economic inactivity has also improved by 1.2% over the last year,

compared with a fall of 0.1% over the past year for the UK. So that

is encouraging. I do think our policies in terms of existing

companies are making a difference within those figures, but I am

happy to take any questions. If the committee wants more details we

will also be happy to provide that when I have had the opportunity to

discuss with officials in more detail what has emerged. That was

the been his -- the Business Minister. We did invite Edwina Hart

onto the programme to speak to us about the latest figures but she

declined. Let us see what our guests think about that. That is

the first we have heard from a government representative in person

on these figures. What do you make of what she said? I think it is a

bit complacent, actually. The whole point of the programme is to

improve our GDP, that is what they were designed to do. Claims that we

are somehow keeping abreast of UK white figures are neither here nor

there because the whole point of these programmes are to identify a

merrier for action because we know it is particularly deprived and it

needs to be lifted. I think we all have to accept that the first

objective was not particularly well managed. We were hoping a

convergence would be a much better programme, and it may be a bit

early to be sure about the effect of convergence, and it was a time

of recession, but nevertheless the government has been much more

proactive about being more creative to improve the economy of Wales.

is no surprise that the government does not really want to talk about

this much. But Edwina Hart did speak about it, recognising that

they weren't great figures. But what does it say about the first 10

years of the Assembly? How well people look back on the funding and

convergence? Well, the minister did not say an awful lot. I think she

was put on the spot and forced to say something. This money has come

to Wales for a specific reason. Sustainability was important and we

have just seen 10 years of the same old stuff, which is the government

in Wales saying, you need to do this, you need to go through all

these different levels of provision, and what is completely missing is

the support of the private sector with social enterprises and small

enterprises. That is happening in equivalent places in Europe and

does perhaps explain why our GDP is low at then part of Romania, for

example. Now, the programme is coming to an end. Thank you for