18/03/2014 am.pm

Good afternoon, welcome to the programme and our weekly coverage of

questions to the First Minister. I've had a look at the order paper

and Carwyn Jones can expect questions on science education,

council budgets and the treatment of Swansea City fans on their recent

trip to Napoli. As usual, he'll also be quizzed by the leaders of the

three opposition parties. That's what I think the politicians will be

talking about, what do you want to talk about? If you want to comment

on anything on the programme or any other political news, get in touch

with us. You can reach us via Twitter, we're @walespolitics, or

send us an email to [email protected]. Well, business in the chamber is

already under way, so let's take a look now at today's questions to the

First Minister. Good afternoon, I call the National

Assembly of Wales to order. Questions to the First Minister.

Question one. Will the First Minister make a statement on science

education in Wales. The teaching of science and stem subjects are a

priority. We want it to reflect the needs of business and the economy.

In advance of science week this week, Doctor Lyn Evans gave a talk

to the assembly last week. You will be aware that Doctor Evans is the

prominent Welsh scientist who built the large Hadron Collider. You told

us about the project they have at certain, to invite science teachers

from across Europe to come and engage them in professional

development programmes. In the years they've run a programme, and 1000 UK

teachers have been to it, not a single teacher from a Welsh school

has attended. Can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to

make sure that Welsh teachers have the opportunity to take up these

exciting and truly inspirational professional development

opportunities? He told me the same thing last week when I met him on

Thursday. It is something I want to investigate. I will do that, because

if those figures are correct, then clearly, we need to make sure that

any barriers that may exist to science teachers in Wales going to

Switzerland are removed. To create the science and engineers of

tomorrow we need to enthuse our children are primaries. Teachers in

primary schools need to be fully aware of the opportunities of

careers in science and engineering for both genders, in order to

inspire our children, and that they should be encouraged to partake in

stem challenges. Supported by Jaguar and the engineering and education

scheme Wales. The scheme is an excellent scheme. It's right to say

that schools in Wales are amongst the world leaders when it comes to

the promotion of engineering at that age, because of the F1 challenge. We

need to ensure it is continued to secondary level. It is the case that

through schemes such as that, we are seeing more young people choosing

STEM subjects to study at higher education, and particularly seeing

more young women want to study STEM subjects as well. We want to make

sure that all opportunities afforded to both sexes. I'm sure you would

agree with me there can be no better way than encouraging to show an

interest in science than showing them the wonders of the night sky.

You may be aware that last week I hosted an event celebrating the

first anniversary of the Brecon Beacons National Park, achieving

dark sky status. They put a heck of a lot of work into achieving that.

Since they've received that status, there has been a huge increase in

astronomy tourism in the Brecon Beacons. Will you tell us what your

government is doing to support endeavours such as dark skies by the

Brecon Beacons National Park, and also what you are doing to an

courage schools across Wales to make the very most of this excellent

asset which, as I say, the Brecon Beacons National Park have put a lot

of work into. It seems the scheme itself is already working very

well. The fact there are many more people coming to look at the night

sky in National Park is a sign that there is certainly a demand there as

far as tourism is concerned. The facility is there for people to be

able to observe the night sky. I very much commend the National Park

authority for the work they have done, in an area that perhaps was

unusual in terms of taking it forward but has proved to be

fruitful. Lbs TRANSLATION: We, in putt, certainly support efforts to

increase the numbers of the students and the success of students in this

STEM subjects. It is a cause concern that the most

recent figures show that among engineering technology students

there is one of the highest of unemployment among graduates of

those courses, some 12%. How can the First Minister ensure that

developers take place, for example with the science Park in Anglesey,

which turns an interesting academic success in these subjects very

real, making real opportunities in the jobs market.

TRANSLATION: If you look at what's available in Wales, such as the

large companies, Ford, Toyota, they all offer opportunities for people

who have studied in the area of design and technology. Anyone, even

if they'd been to university or not, there are a apprenticeship schemes

available that have been very successful. So there are

opportunities available, that's true, and as a government we will

ensure that those opportunities are expanded over the years. Outlined

the Welsh Government's responsibility of the spectator

safety at sporting events in Wales. responsibility of the spectator

It's a matter for the sports run safety authority. It is not a

devolved area. We expect them, working with the major sports clubs

and police, that spectator safety is paramount. The two new stadiums of

Cardiff and Swansea have made a big difference as well. We've got a

reputation in Wales for welcoming and treating very well away

supporters at both rugby and soccer matches. Last month, hundreds of

Swansea city supporters paid a small fortune to travel to Naples. They

missed the start of the match and the first goal as a result of

excessive security delays and disorganised travelling arrangements

made by the Neapolitan authorities. Does the First Minister share my

concern over the treatment of the Swansea City fans, and witty raise

this issue with his counterparts in the Foreign Office at the earliest

opportunity? I'm aware that South Wales police worked with Italian

police to make sure security plans run smoothly. But the travel

experience rests with the authorities enables Rather than

Wales. I understand that you wait are aware of the matter and we wait

to see what the response will be. First Minister, the Lord Justice

report into the hill just -- spirit is asked in 1989, it made a number

of recommendations to secure the safety of people attending sports

grounds. Since then, conditions have changed dramatically with the

football supporters Federation now calling for an introduction on a

trial basis of safe standing areas. Will the First Minister support safe

standing areas on a trial basis in Wales? It's difficult to see how

that would work, given the fact that the newer stadiums were designed to

be all-seater stadiums. I remember the old terraces. They had some

attractions in terms of the atmosphere. There were many events

that occurred on those terraces that we would be less happy to believe.

More than anything else, they were quite often dangerous. Let's not

forget that football ground up until the late 80s in the UK were

ramshackle. No money had been put into spectator safety, no money had

been put into ensuring that spectators had an enjoyable time and

were safe. It was because of the Taylor report that we now have

modern, up to date football grounds that are safe to visit and have been

designed in such a way to avoid crowd trouble. Let's not forget in

the 1980s, crowd trouble inside stadiums was not uncommon. Crowd

trouble outside stadiums was very common. It's because of this report

that the issues have been largely resolved. We should think carefully

about trying to undo parts of it. I'd like to agree with the comments

made by Mike hedges with regard to the Swansea fans. I know there is a

meeting on the 20th of this month, a UEFA disciplinary hearing with

regards to the treatment by Napoli of the Swansea fans. South Wales

police have also put in a report to that particular disciplinary

hearing. I wonder whether you, as First Minister, could ask for any of

the report that will come from UEFA, so that assembly members, especially

from the area, can understand fully what went wrong and how this cannot

be replicated again in the future, as I know it also happened to

Arsenal fans who went out there recently? That report will be shared

as widely and publicly as possible, so we understand to what exactly

happened. There are many football supporters in Wales who have

experienced being in Milan in 2003, when Wales played. I was told of the

difficulties that were experienced there. It builds on a difficult

reputation that was already in place as far as Italian football grounds

are concerned. It's important that football fans all over the world are

made to feel both welcome and safe in Italy. We now move to questions

from the party leaders. The leader of Plaid Cymru. -year-old the

Secretary of State for Wales said yesterday that he was shocked by

comments made by the First Minister the valleys lines underfunding of

it. Will the First Minister give this assembly his version of events

from July 2012? Was there a formal agreement between him and the UK

Government, was it in writing? If so, would he be prepared to publish

it? There's been no agreement that any -- any time that the Welsh

Government should fund the electrification, nor am I prepared

to share any correspondence. It's obvious there a difference of

opinion between the First Minister's version of events and

those of the Secretary of State for Wales. Is the First Minister saying

that this issue was open to interpretation, and would he agree

with me that rail investment is too big an issue to leave to informal

understandings? What I want to see is electrification to occur. I was

careful to emphasise that what I wanted was clarification, which

we've not had. The letter from the Prime Minister on Friday doesn't

clarify the issue. The response from the Secretary of State was bordering

on the hysterical, given the comment that I'd actually made. Let's recap

what has been said by various UK Government ministers over the past

two years. On the 16th of July, 2012, the then Secretary of State

said, over ?350 million will be directly invested into the Welsh

railway infrastructure. On the same day, the leader of the opposition

said, this is a priceless boost to the region and Wales as a whole.

This is conservatives positive regeneration in Wales, unlike

Labour's managed decline. If we were being asked to contribute to this

scheme, how is it Labour's managed decline? On the 23rd of November,

the Wales office said, the UK Government announced in July this

year the electrification of the Valley lines around Cardiff,

including the lines at Aberdare, and the lines from Bridgend... No

mention there the Welsh Government funding this. On the 31st of

October, the Prime Minister said to the BBC in an interview, I know we

need these infrastructure investments in Wales. It is this

government that is putting money into electrification of the railway

line to Swansea and the Valley lines. That is, to me, as clear as

it possibly can be. Why on earth would we, as a government, look to

fund something that isn't even devolved?

Order. Order. Leanne Wood. The deal is not clear. It is clear that the

way in which investment in our railways is administered, is

inadequate and unclear. Plaid Cymru wants to see railway services in

public hands and fully devolved. How does the First Minister propose

achieving and implementing the devolution of railway funding to

Wales, as recommended by the Silk Commission? I am grateful to the

leader of Plaid Cymru when she emphasised this is not a devolved

matter. Why would the Welsh Government lock to pay for something

that isn't devolved? What else are we going to be asked to pay for in

the future? This is devolved area. I notice that ?4.7 billion has been

put by the UK Government into Crossrail. 2.2 billion into HS2, but

at the moment, the impression is been given when it comes to

electrification of the valley lines and the main line from Cardiff to

Swansea, not a penny will be forth coming from the UK Government. I

want to see this project move forward. I want early clarification

on what has been said by the Prime Minister, a two salt springs in the

past, in term -- to Secretary of States in the past. It was said this

is an extra ?4.2 billion worth of funding, that we are announcing

today, a lot of it going to the South Wales valley lines. So we have

two secretaries of state and the Prime Minister, and the leader of

the opposition, all saying this is an investment by the UK Government,

no mention of the Welsh Government having to pay, and I expect those

promises made orally to the people of Wales to be kept.

We are not in the Liberty Stadium in Swansea.

We now move to the Leader of the Opposition. Thank you presiding

officer. First Minister, do you agree that an collude should stop

her campaign for better standard for patient care in the Welsh NHS, as

the member for for vine indicated some two weeks' ago in the

Conservative-led debate. What she does is a matter for her. It was

clearly stated for the member she wanted Anne Clwyd to stop talking

about the well NHS. Last, yesterday, Anne Clwyd touched clear loin what

she believed was the state of the Welsh NHS. She said, "This is a

further firm evidence of a crisis, facing the NHS in Wales, these are

record-breaking figures" she was talking about diagnostic figures "Of

the worth kind." -- worst kind. Do you understand

those concerns a senior member of your party is levelling against the

way the NHS is run here in Wales. Anne has based her allegation on the

way her husband was treated. She has refused permission for the report,

surrounding his treatment to be made public. It is important that for

people to make a judgment on what happened, that that report is made

public, but that of course is a matter for others. What I do know is

that this morning in the time, a Conservative Secretary of State for

Health is suggesting that the Welsh block grant should be cut, in terms

of health. That is what he is saying, funding for the Welsh NHS

should be cut from Whitehall. Will he join me in condemning the

comments of Jeremy Hunt? As perusual, shameful response from the

First Minister. -- per usual. Anne Clwyd's comments are-based on the

evidence she has gathered in the extensive, in the extensive

consultations she has had with bay she wents and clinicians in the work

she has undertaking, in effectiveness of the Welsh NHS. As

he said yesterday, when she looked at the diagnostic treatment waiting

types here in Wales, where the eight week wait is now in excess of 28,000

patients. For a term of reference, the member for Pontypridd that is

the same at the size of the town that he and I represent waiting for

a diagnostic referral on out of those waiting times. In England that

same figure is 1.8%. 1.8%: And that is over a six month period. First

Minister, given your you are so dissmifs of Anne Clwyd, why will you

not agree to meet with myself, meet with Anne Clwyd and your good self

and get to the bottom of the serious concerns, which you, which you

clearly dismiss, which is based on evidence and based on fact.

I have asked her the minister for health asked her, she has produced

anonymous comment, we don't know whether they are correct. We have

asked her morn than one occasion to produce the evidence to back up her

claim, I have done it, I have done it to her in person, and in writing,

she has not done it. But I do notice, I do notice, that when

asked, whether he condemns Jeremy Hunt's grab of money away from the

Welsh NHS, that runs away from it. That is his shame and his party's

shame. I notice he doe does notman hundred -- does not mention the

airport. Something he got wrong, I notice that he doesn't mention

electrification, an area where he had the opportunity to stand up for

Wales, and he has failed. His party treated not half an hour ago, that

the Welsh Government should pay for electrification. Order. In reality,

all he is, all he is in the words of Robbie burns is a wee cow cowering

timorous beastie. I think I have been transported to another House.

Can we please calm down and no more shouting across the benches. We now

move to the leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats Kirsty Williams.

Thank you. First Minister, in January 2013, there were 199

vulnerable young children, waiting more than 14 weeks to access child

and adolescent psychiatric services. In January of this year, that number

had quadrupled to almost 800. Why is your Government unable to provide

timely help, for some of our most vulnerable young people in their

time of need? That is something we are aware of as a government. Demand

has increased rapidly over that time and what we are and I know what the

Health Minister is looking at, is to make sure we look to provide the

services required in the future, so we continue do have the long waiting

lists. First Minister, child health experts

agree early intervention is key to preventing problems later on in

life. Your spiralling waiting lists are forcing parents to turn in

desperation to the private sector for help. Private sector care they

can often ill afford. Last week a doctor of Cardiff University said

while they were many good staff working in-cams services in Wales,

they were operating with only 20-40% of the recommended staffing levels.

-- CAMS. Could you outline what steps you are taking, to tackle the

chronic understaffing of this vital service? It is true to say it has

been difficult to recruit psychiatrists but as the member will

know, we do have a medical recruitment campaign we have been

running to attract more people into difficult to reach specialities. In

terms of the service that is available in Wales of course, every

patient who is receiving specialist mental healthcare is guaranteed to

have a right to a treatment plan. It does mean better quality of care for

patients and helps them achieve their goals in recovery. Introduced

as the member will know via the mental health measure. What is

needed I accept is to ensure that the provision of service keeps pace

with demand. These problems are not new and they already brought to your

Government's attention by your own inspectorate and by the Wales' Audit

Office back in jn, when it says concern -- January, when it says

concerns raised in 2009 had not been properly addressed.

Young people are still being admitted to adult mental health

wards. Professionals are failing to share information

wards. Professionals are failing to still grave concerns about patients

being discharged from treatment. Now despite the introduction of that

mental health measure, and some ?250,000 investment in the service,

it is still falling short, First Minister, who will your Government

backbench in a position to ensure this crucially important part of a

mental Health Service, actually delivers for the children and young

people of Wales? When? I am grateful the leader of the Liberal Democrats

acknowledges the investment that has been made and building on the

measures Azerbaijan I mentioned there has been a significant

increase in the demand on the service, and that is right to say

therefore, that the level of service of this moment in time could be

improved. That is something I know the Health Minister is keen to do. I

agree with her entirely, when it comes to early intervention that is

very important, that of course can be done in other ways, in terms of

ensuring there is access to advice service, I know in my own town there

are a number of organisations who provide that service and we signpost

people to those organisations as a first step.

Nevertheless, the Health Minister and I understand that as far as Cams

is concerned more needs to be done to ensure it is shared by

professionals. We move back to papers of tn questions.

TRANSLATION: What is the Welsh's Governments I greatest achievement

in tackling poverty in Wales? Jobs growth Wales. Thank you for that

minister. It is also true that absolute poverty, having taken

housing costs has increased and absolute poverty, having taken

is hiring thanes before in the -- absolute poverty, having taken

was in the first three year absolute poverty, having taken

assembly. What you do for children in poverty in Wales? We know of

course in ensuring that children are raised out of poverty, it is

important that the adults in the homes are able to find employment to

ensure that the family income increases and according to the child

poverty strategy progress report of last year, that report talked about

the fact that there are fewer adults now, leaving without any

qualifications from school or college, and also that the gap in

terms of education between those who receive free school meals and those

who don't, has decreased between 2009 and 2010 and 2011/12. So things

have been done, it is very difficult of course, to do everything we would

want to do, because we don't have every tool at present, but it is

important that we do continue with the child poverty strategy to ensure

that more children receive the opportunity to be pulled out of

poverty. Will you join me in welcoming the

above inflation increase in the minimum wage to 6.?50 per hour

announced by the coalition Government in London, which will

benefit 73,000 people none Wales, and help reduce poverty in pales.

It is about what the Welsh Government is doing. I know what you

asked, you said what the Welsh Government is doing. I know what you

Government was doing, I don't think it was part

Question four. TRANSLATION: What steps has the

Welsh Government taken to address the shortage of staff in the NHS

that can speak Welsh? The Welsh language framework on health and

Social Services launched in November 2012 does put forward improvement,

it puts forward a specific objective to increase the capability of the

workforce to provide Welsh language service, and a number of health

boards are taking steps to make improvements. Met trainee doctors

some fortnight ago and there was disappoint expressed in terms of the

numbers of Welsh speakers who are entering training as GPs. What

appropriate steps and what monitoring is done of your new

guideline, which have now been in place for 15 months? Well, every

health board has taken this forward, for example, you talk about the

north, het me concentrate on that. There is a linguistic skills

framework being prepared. This will mean as parent of the recruitment

policy managers will have to consider the area's dem gra ticks to

-- demographics to ensure that every post that comes up in future is

assessed in relation to what the linguistic requirements for that

position is, so this will be a core part of what it will be doing in

future. Welsh language is pervasive across all government departments.

Can you tell me what the Department for health and social services is

doing in terms of contact with schools and colleges, to include

interesting vocabulary about the NHS being brought into lesson plans? In

terms of Welsh and education, as the member will know, we are in a

position where we have provided great support for the language over

the years, as the European Commission has recognised. We are

reviewing the position of Welsh in education in order to strengthen the

language's position. Through that, if we increased the number of young

people who go to Welsh speaking schools or bilingual schools, so we

hope to increase the number of those who are studying science, and

therefore increase the number who are looking to enter any of the

medical professions and who are able to do is the Welsh language.

TRANSLATION: Thank you very much. The shortage of bilingual GPs is now

reaching crisis point in the north-west. We can't even get such

doctors into areas. You mentioned the health board has a strategy in

place, but what is being done at the level of the medical colleges in

Wales to encourage more Welsh speakers to study there and also to

train in North Wales, so that they are then more likely to remain in

the area? TRANSLATION: Well,

the area? problem in my view. It's not that

people don't want to move to the north-west. One of the problems I am

aware of is people want to come as GPs to the area but they need to

find a job for their partners. Because they, too, are looking for

employment in the area. That has come from the GPs themselves. It's

quite an odd thing to say in one respect. I'm certain there are

people who want to practice as general practitioners in the

north-west, but the resolution to this problem isn't as easy as just

to give people more money. We have to look at it and -- in a holistic

manner. The Welsh Government provided to local authorities on

setting the budget? Local authorities are autonomous. They are

responsible for the decisions they make. You Looe north-east Wales

local authority told me they are protecting their reserves now.

Reconfiguring services and already planning ahead for the 2015 to 2016

budgets, knowing that further reductions are to follow. They told

me they had not taken servers decisions this year, they need

certainty from the Welsh woman for future budgets with a three-year

indicative settlement, so that they can plan. Which is correct? Each

local authority takes their own approach. It is their

responsibility. They are responsible for setting their own budgets.

TRANSLATION: Notwithstanding, First Minister, there is a problem when

local authorities do have to endeavour to ensure that the budgets

are viable and have to endeavour to ensure that the budgets

cutbacks in certain service areas. In doing so, having to go contrary

to the intentions and ambitions of the Welsh Government. For example,

the Welsh Government has an ambition of seeing more and more people

participating in physical activity. Local authorities, however, have to

look at the maintenance of playing fields and so on and so forth. The

Welsh Government has an ambition to ensure that more usage is made of

our libraries, whilst we simultaneously see libraries closed

because of cuts in the budget. How can you reconcile these budgetary

decisions with the intentions, ambition and vision of the Welsh

Government? TRANSLATION: Well, we would expect

local authorities to share our ambitions. Having said that, it's

important to realise that local authorities, like every tier of

government, is facing a very difficult time, considering next

year's budget and, to be honest, the ensuing years because this is due to

cuts in the funding that has been given to us as a government, and

therefore it must pass down to local government. But I would say to local

government, do consider in detail their priorities will stop not to

just salami slice across the board, but to consider their priorities and

ensure that they have a budget which demonstrates their priorities and

not just a cut across the board. Good afternoon. Will you please

indicate when the special education needs Bill will be introduced?

indicate when the special education hope to be able to agree a way

forward which will allow us to introduce such a

forward which will allow us to elections. We will discuss this as

part of the government's legislative programme. That was entirely the

answer I was seeking. I would hope the Welsh Conservatives would

support the government in trying to bring forward a holistic bill that

would deal with the requirements of special needs children in Wales. I

would like to see the Bill come to this place before the end of this

assembly. I'm delighted I've been able to give a full and complete

answer to a member on the Conservative benches. I trust it

won't happen very often. TRANSLATION: I welcome your comments

on the fact it is the Government's intention to bring forward this bill

before the next election. I, on behalf or Plaid Cymru, will ensure

that we comply with you to make sure that can occur. In the meantime,

there is some confusion in the way children with special needs our

statement it or not, with certain authorities providing statements and

some refusing to do that. Trying to put down independent learning plans

and so on. How will the government ensure consistency of access to the

services that children need in Wales whilst we await the legislation? I'm

certain that the Health Minister will consider how we can get

consistency before the legislation comes into force. Ultimately, the

way of securing consistency is by statute. The member is quite right.

There are discrepancies statute. The member is quite right.

local authorities on how they statement some children, some

authority statement some children more easily than others. I will ask

the Minister to write to the member, bearing in mind the fact that there

are opportunities when the bill comes before us. Will the First

Minister provide an update on the provision of free education for

three-year-olds? All children in Wales are entitled to a free

part-time foundation place from their third birthday. It will remain

wholly committed to the foundation phase and its pros -- approach to

teaching and learning. All local authority are meeting their

statutory duty. I was rather concerned to hear that Swansea

council was not minded to allow the provision of free education for

three-year-olds, other than in its own council provided settings. In

your own constituency Bridgend, the local authority is looking to save

money by reducing council funded nursery provision. Were council run

mercenaries Deborah Bull to cuts and the only setting for free education

provision for three-year-olds, do you think it's an wise for a council

to deny suitable non-council run nurseries the option to offer that

provision? Councils must meet their statutory duty. How they meet that

is a matter for them. They can't fail to meet it. Will the First

Minister outline any discussions he has held with ministers in relation

to so-called legal highs? I do meet with the Minister for health and

social services on a regular basis. He is aware of your concerns.

Unfortunately, barely a week goes by now without news of another tragedy

linked to the so called legal highs. We are seeing major

linked to the so called legal highs. these in my own

linked to the so called legal highs. have a very constructive meeting

with the Health Minister just before recess. Locally, I've been liaising

with the health board and the police on the issue for some time. It is

essential we adopt a crosscutting approach to a tackling this scourge

in Wales, moving forward, will you commit to quarter mating these

really important efforts across Welsh Government? To emphasise, we

can't do anything in terms of legislation. The misuse of drugs act

is not devolved all stop moving forward with the legislation to

categorise new drugs as they appear, because a lot of them do, is

not a matter for us. That said, it is essential we work together across

departments to tackle the devastation that these substances

can cause. Health officials already worked closely with local government

and education to provide a coordinated response to education

and prevention and in terms of addressing availability of the new

psychoactive substances, which is the phrase that is used in Wales. I

understand that the Gwent area planning board is coordinating the

local response to tackling you psychoactive substances where the

health board, police and public health are fully aware. No one

doubts that we need to reduce the harm which can be caused to people

by the use of so-called legal highs. But I am concerned about the Welsh

Government's funding of a project which allows people to send in

substances protesting and the results of those substances to be

published online. Unfortunately, I've received some evidence that

this is being used by people who are pushing steroids that

this is being used by people who are They are actually -- are links which

have been sent to me in the late into the UK Muscle website, a

body-building forum, showing that this might actually be happening.

What work is the Welsh Government doing to ensure that this project is

not exploited by people who want to peddle substances which could

potentially be very harmful? The project is designed to ensure that

people are able to send samples to the project in order to understand

what is in them will stop especially at a time when new drugs are being

synthesised and an ever increasing rate will stop when the misuse of

drugs act was passed in 1971, there were far fewer drugs on the market.

Those that were there had not been synthesised into new forms. Cocaine,

for example, into crack. The legislation has had to keep pace

with that. It's important we are aware of what's appearing, in order

to deal with it. I take the point he makes. Of course, the project would

not want to be some kind of testing system for those who seek if what

they've produced is effective or not. It's important to ensure that

is monitored, important that we continue to work with gyms, to make

sure that the are aware of the damage that long-term steroid abuse

can make to people, leading ultimately to early death. Will the

First Minister make a statement on fees paid to outside organisations

to manage the anti-poverty strategy? The fee for all managed programmes

with the tackling poverty agenda will vary, depending on the issue.

He will know that in terms of the discretionary system fund, 16% of

the total budget for that has gone in terms of managing that project

will start within regards to the credit union project, of the ?4.7

million available over a number of years, nearly ?1 million has been

spent on consultants to manage that project. Given that the high

percentage of those monies being spent that Administration, do you

not think the Welsh Government needs to review the way these projects are

managed so that more money can go to the front end? When it comes to the

discretionary assistance fund, the UK said it would cost ?2.1 million

to administer in Wales. The cost is actually one point ?38 million,

considerably less than the DWP estimate and the amount they'd been

allocated. The cost of the administration of the fund has no

impact on the amount of grant money available. The budget remains at

?10.2 million. Looking at the statistics regarding the performance

of the fund, they seem to have improved, particularly over the

course of this financial year. The Welsh Government's main anti-poverty

strategy is communities first. Following the Wales audit office

concerns and reports during the last assembly on the lack of effective

corporate governance embedded in grant recipient bodies outside local

government in Wales, the Welsh Government has now made most of the

grant recipient bodies be the local authorities. How is the Welsh

Government therefore ensuring that those local authorities, whilst

fulfilling the grant recipient body roll in terms of financial

fulfilling the grant recipient body resource management and audit,

nonetheless ensures that resource management and audit,

is focused on anti-poverty strategies that the local community

has identified and is working with them upon? That's what the money is

for. We've sought to ensure the money is made available and spent in

an appropriate way. But the whole point of communities first is to

ensure that projects come up rather than forced down, and to ensure that

people are fully engaged in what they believe would be the most

effective project to tackle poverty in their own areas. First Minister,

in recent years there's been a move to outsourcing service provisions

and administrative duties of government programmes to private

companies. We have bad examples of ATOS, amongst others, in

delivering, I think, very Poor value for money. Are you confident that

public funds being used by your government to pay private companies

is going to where it is needed most, and not just into dividends,

profits, shares and fat cat's salaries? Why don't we let local

government run the schemes? Local government has been responsible for

paying chief executive 's ?200,000 a year, so they don't have the best

records, some of them, in terms of their own position. That said, I can

say to him I do not approve of outsourcing services to

profit-making organisations. That is a position this government holds

very strongly. It is for local government to ensure that they are

in a position where they can ensure value for money and a good service

and proper terms and conditions for their staff. Outsourcing services to

organisations that are seeking to make a profit is not, in my view, a

good way to do that. There we are. We'll leave First Minister's

Questions there, but don't forget that you can see more coverage of

the National Assembly online from BBC Wales's Democracy Live page at

bbc.co.uk.uk/walespolitics. That's it for today. We'll be back at the

same time next week with more coverage of First Minister's

Questions. If you want more Welsh politics before then, don't forget Y

Sgwrs on S4C at 9.30pm tomorrow evening and The Wales Report with

Huw Edwards after the ten o'clock news on BBC One Wales. As for today

though, from all of us on the programme, goodbye.