22/02/2012 am.pm

Good morning and welcome to AM-PM, our twice weekly look at what's

going on in politics in Wales, the UK and beyond. On today's

programme: We'll be at Prime Minister's

Questions as David Cameron faces renewed calls to cut tax for

businesses in next month's Budget. And the Welsh Government faces

questions over why it didn't intervene sooner in the running of

the controversial race organisation, AWEMA.

Some health issues for me today - Joining me throughout today's

programme are two AMs - the Liberal Democrat, Peter Black, and the

Conservative, William Graham. So, the former Cabinet Minister, Liam

Fox is urging the Chancellor to bring in tax cuts in next month's

Budget. What do you think? A first- rate idea. We know that tax cuts

stimulate the economy. Even the economy at the moment? Any economy

will be stimulated by tax cuts. Let's first of all take a lot of

people out of tax and look again at the 50 % tax rate. We know that can

be counter-productive. Peter, your party has advocated raising the

threshold for taxes. What do you think about the 50 % tax rate?

believe it has to stay. It does raise money but it is a symbolic

indication that the Government is all about fairness. I think we have

hit on a dividing line here. should be concentrating on taking

the lowest paid out of tax altogether. We have an agreement to

raise the tax threshold to �10,000, taking a lot more people out of tax.

We need to move much more quickly towards that aim. Former Cabinet

ministers saying 20. How much traction do you think Liam Fox will

have on the Chancellor on this? is representative of part of the

party and it is good that they have a their voice but it is based on

sound economics. The Chancellor at this time of year is getting

suggestions and advice from all quarters about what should be in

his Budget. How much attention do you think he is going to pay to

these calls? I think you will pay a fair bit of attention. It depends

what he can afford. We have advocated increasing both taxes to

pay for that. Liam Fox is advocating more cuts. We have got

to get the balance right. The Government policy already is to

take lower-paid people out of tax. We should be fair. If you have less

important -- income, you will spend a smaller proportion of their

rather than save it. That is a really important part of this

process. Ed force wants to borrow more money to spend on big projects

to generate money within the economy. You would think he had

borrowed enough already having got us into the situation we are at the

moment. The Government is borrowing money and continues to borrow money

but what we need to do is to get the deficit down, make sure our

current spending does not exceed our income by too great an amount

so that we can read balance the budget and make sure we do not end

up like crease. How William, your party is often accused of

protecting the wealthiest in society. Do you not think that

cutting the 50 % tax rate is a sign that that is what your party likes

to do? He not really, because it is shown by various economic models

that the 50 % tax rate creates very little. If you take it away, it

goes up because people are more keen to work. We want to reduce

taxation to stimulate the economy. We are now moving as a coalition

towards capital projects which will have the same effect. We will

continue our economics discussion later.

Time to find out what's happening in the Senedd today with the help

of Mark, who's in the Oriel. Another interesting afternoon in

store. We have questions to ministers and today it is the turn

of the finance minister, Jane Hutt, and the business Minister, Edwina

Hart course. Then on to the issue of people being harassed because

they are disabled. It seems staggering that that should happen

but it seems to be more and more of a problem. Then there is a debate

about post-traumatic stress disorder. This is something the

Conservatives have nominated because it is something they have

been pushing quite strongly for many months. Regular viewers will

be aware that the issue has come back several times. They are aware

that more and more relatively young people from our communities have

served overseas in Iraq, Afghanistan, and are coming back

severely damaged. Perhaps the services are not there to the

extent they should be to help these people move forward in life. The

Conservatives want the Government to acknowledge there is a problem

and that the services are not up to scratch. They also want a review of

whether there has been progress since the health committee noted

this problem in February last year. Then there is a debate on the race

equality charity, AWEMA. They have been a whole host of alleged

financial wrongdoings which has seen its chief executive, Naz Malik,

sacked. Had there are allegations that money was used in

appropriately to pay for things like rugby tickets and even car

parking fines. It is alleged that one of the directors of the charity

was Naz Malik's daughter. That apparently is a conflict of

interest. And it is said that reports have found that Naz Malik's

daughter's salary increased by something like �30,000 in just

three years. A whole host of things have been uncovered in two reports.

The Liberal Democrats have nominated this debate to ask how

this problem went on for so long. a report suggested that further

funding for AWEMA should only be undertaken with great caution and

in 2007, the venture resigned and wrote to the Government to raise a

number of his concerns. They have also been allegations of bullying,

human rights being interfered with, people having to sit at different

tables to other people, a whole host of things. The Liberal

Democrats want to ask why this was not detected earlier and they

wanted protocol to make sure this kind of thing cannot happen in

future at other publicly-funded organisations. At the end of the

afternoon we have got the short debate which is today from Nick

Ramsay, the Conservative Assembly Member for Monmouth, and he is

going to be discussing water, the renaissance of the resource.

Thank you very much, Mark. And you can find out even more on

what's happening in the National Assembly on BBC Wales' Democracy

Live online coverage. Just go to bbc.co.uk/walespolitics.

And to tell us what's happening in Westminster today, we can go to our

correspondent, Tomos Livingstone. It seems the NHS Bill has overtaken

bankers bonuses as the recurring topic on this programme and this

time it is the Liberal Democrats rather than the Lords who are

planning to scupper it. It has come up in successive weeks for some

time and it has been Ed Miliband who has been able to make a on this.

All the polling shows that the one issue where Labour consistently out

appals the Conservatives is the health service and no wonder Ed

Miliband keeps coming back to this, the controversial coalition health

reforms in England. Today, Labour is pushing for something called the

NHS risk assessment, which is something the Government has put

together if it's a report -- reforms go through. Labour say they

should be published but the Government says that would not be

appropriate. Liberal-Democrat MPs also say it should be published. A

sign that there is some unhappiness on the backbenches and we saw that

in the Commons yesterday about these very controversial reforms.

These reforms only affect England, why should we care about them in

Wales? One is the cross border issue, people who live near the

border in Wales to travel to England for health services. And

there is also the political dimension, if the Government is

forced into some sort of climbdown, there could be questions over its

ability to get through other public reforms. That would be a boost for

Ed Miliband. Some eyebrows being raised for hour Liberal Democrat

and Conservative members on a chair. The budget is only a month away.

George Osborne may have choked on his see real this morning as he

read the Financial Times. He there was some advise from Liam Fox. He

resigned from the Cabinet four months ago over leaks to his friend

who was attending one or two business meetings that he should

not have been at. But Liam Fox has not faded away into the backbenches,

he still feels he has a role to play in front line politics. His

argument is that the Budget should contain cuts to employers' National

Insurance contributions, making it cheaper to take on new staff. He

also says the Government should be getting on with making it easier to

hire and fire employees. This is ostensibly written as a critique of

the Labour Party and those on the left Rouen pro regulation and anti-

business. But it is a reminder to right wing MPs that they don't have

to go along with everything the coalition government is saying,.

There are alternative views as there and they could do worse than

Liam Fox. Let's move on to football now. The Prime Minister is hosting

a summit this morning to tackle racism in football at Downing

Street. What is he hoping to achieve? I think Prince William

might be interested. He is a big Aston Villa fan. David Cameron does

not want to see football slight back into the bad old days. There

is a summit and he has got some FA officials coming to Downing Street,

some former players, to see if there is anything the Government

can do to stepping and encourage some players and fans to take a

more enlightened view of what goes on on the pitch. Not everyone

thinks this is a good idea. David Cameron once criticised Tony Blair

for government by gimmick but he might have something to contribute

on this issue. Thank you very much. Don't forget that we'd like to hear

from you if you'd like to send us your comments about any of the

The First Minister, Carwyn Jones, attended a meeting with the UK

Government and ministers for the devolved nations at the Cabinet

Office in Whitehall on Monday. He repeated his calls for more control

over renewable energy projects to be given to Wales. After the

meeting he spoke to our correspondent, Owain Clarke.

You came here calling for more powers over green energy and

suchlike, it has been a frequent call of yours. Any progress? It is

going to be up to the Silk Commission which is looking at the

Assembly's powers in the future. If it recommends the devolution of

those powers, I would expect the UK government to deliver on that.

I'm looking for precisely? We want to deal with renewable energy

projects up to 100 megawatts. We have got great potential when it

comes to marine energy in Wales and creating jobs of the back of that.

Scotland controls its own subsidies but we don't. Scotland controls the

planning system for marine energy but we don't. The same is true for

Northern Ireland. Because we can't offer the same levels of subsidy or

planning, we are losing out on jobs. You have asked for this before, are

you getting frustrated that there is not more progress? If the UK

government is saying this will be dealt with by the commission set up

to look at further powers for the Assembly, that is due to report in

the autumn of next year. If that Commission suggests energy concerns

should be devolved, as we have suggested, we would expect the UK

government to deliver on that. energy prices was on the table as

well. How much of a problem is it for Welsh consumers? Our larger

manufacturers are complaining that prices for energy in the UK are far

higher than anywhere else in Europe. The energy suppliers take a

different feel but it is a complete fog surrounding how this is worked

out. Individual consumers are faced with a raft of tariffs and they

don't know which is best for them. It all needs to be simplified. We

also need greater transparency in the energy markets are people can

Let's talk to our guests now and see what they think. What did you

make of the kind of things the first minister was calling for?

thought he was not being ambitious enough. Limiting the call to 100

enough. Limiting the call to 100 megawatts seems to me to be quite

an ambitious in terms of what the Government is seeking. If you are

going to go for planning control on all energy companies, go for them

all at once. I am surprised that Labour appears to be all over the

shop on this. Labour MPs, Welsh Labour MPs, voted against a Plaid

motion to devolve energy to Wales, so you wonder who is Carwyn Jones

actually speaking for? Is it for the Welsh Labour Party, is it for

the Welsh government? Why are Labour are not united on this

issue? My third point, in terms of what the Welsh government would do

when I get those powers, one of the obstacles which the previous

government found in terms of devolving powers, and the current

government is finding, too, is that they were proposing to let local

authorities make decisions on all these big issues. Looking for some

central Wales wide body would be better than leaving it to the

vagaries of local councillors. That needs to be addressed by the

Government as well. William, Carwyn Jones was told by the UK government

that no decision will be made on the transfer of any powers over

energy until the sale Commission publishes its report at the end of

next year. Do think that is good enough? It is sensible. Let them at

report. The timescale may slip a little bit. The Welsh Conservatives

have long called for a devolved powers and there is no reason why

we should not have it. It is a good policy and for once, I can agree

with Carwyn Jones in the principle. But the way he has gone about

addressing it makes it more difficult for the Government to

agree with his proposal. You say you have called for the devolving

of those powers before. What would you like to see done with those

powers? The point that Peter made his right. Guidance to local

authorities is important. There needs to be some central part of

government to look at these issues were right across the board, to

really get it right. We need a dedicated department to look at

each issue individually and give guidance to those who make

decisions. In terms of the jobs that Carwyn Jones was talking about,

do think that is a legitimate argument, that because powers has

not been devolved, Wales will be losing jobs. What we have not been

doing in Wales enough is actually getting the jobs here in terms of

manufacturing, wind turbine sq and other alternative energy mechanisms.

For example, we have a factory now near Chepstow, but up until then

all the wind turbine, and we have a huge number of them, have all been

imported from abroad. Why aren't we manufacture in themselves -- them

ourselves. We should be built in the machines to get that

electricity. Your party is not a big fan of wind power, is it?

particularly, know. But the project in Chepstow is very impressive and

they make the power at -- Towers for the wind turbine. No looking at

the issue of powers, it is coming up to a year since we had a

referendum on more powers for the assembly. Some critics have

criticised the Government for not believe forward enough legislation

since those powers have been here. Now the Government is asking for

more powers. How do you think people outside of Cardiff Bay will

view that? Like everything, when you want something you have got to

justify why you wanted. The Silk commission will help to do that. It

is all very well saying why he wants it, but he has given no

evidence. He has said that his reasons, hasn't he? Not really.

Everybody wants extra jobs, but you have got to work out how they are

actually going to come to Wales, and not just to the UK. Peter,

where you stand on the issue of powers? Having voted to give the

Assembly full law-making powers, there are a number of unresolved

issues around that - things like energy for example, which need to

be resolved. That is what the Silk Commission has been set up to look

at. It seems a bit bizarre to ask for the powers now... It is a bit

bizarre, but it is about smoothing the edges. We are not looking for

huge amounts of extra powers. The issue of responsibility for the

money you spend is a key one in terms of taxation, which the cell

commission were also a report on. There are some things we need to

tidy up and energy is one of those extra powers which it Welsh

government needs as part of that. OK, still to come we will be going

live to the House of Commons for Prime Minister's Questions at

midday. Now, back to Mark.

We are going to talk about health budgets. But let me take you up on

something, biggest Aston Villa fan - Nigel Kennedy. I heard your

discussion earlier on. We are talking about health. In particular,

the fact that blight can re are alleging that local health boards

are having to be bailed out at a rate we can't afford -- Plaid. I am

joined by Simon Thomas. What is the problem from Plaid's point of view?

We have seen some health boards being incapable of dealing with the

funding that has been delivered to them, which means that some are not

delivering and year on year are having to be bailed out. We don't

know what that money is for, or what services it is providing. At a

time when services are looking to be cut and centralised,

increasingly be a sin that the money is being used as a reason for

doing that - it is not clinical reasons, it is for saving money.

mark, is is all about mismanagement on the part of those health boards?

If you look at areas where there has been systemic problems in parts

of Wales managing their budgets, and this here is not that different

to others in that way. However, the minister from early on in the year

was able to provide some extra money, and particularly to that

area to enable them to make the transition that they are going to

have to make. We are in different circumstances now than we have been

for the last decade. There is no new money coming over the hill.

There is no growth in budgets to help manage areas that have failed

to manage for themselves. However, it will have to manage within his

budget and the minister has been generous to them in giving more --

them more than other parts of Wales extra elbow room to make that

transition. But the generosity cannot continue. Absolutely not.

The minister has been very clear in sent to all health Bourzat they

have to live within their own resources. Simon Thomas, are you

being unfair playing politics with this issue when you know that the

funding simply is decreasing at a great rate? You also know about

health inflation. He would be complaining if the Government were

not bailing out local health boards to the extent they are capable of

doing so. You should play politics with �5 billion worth of public

money - that is why we get elected, to make sure that money is spent in

the best way proper at -- possible. We need to ask whether this area is

capable of delivering the sort of services that I want to see. It

would not be acceptable in Cardiff or Swansea to have an hour's

journey in an ambulance to accident and emergency, and it is not

acceptable in mid-Wales. Is the Government not right to do what it

is doing, or would you prefer that they said to the boards, you have

not manage this money correctly, tough. The Government must get its

story right. There have been saying all along that the changes we have

been saying -- Singh in Wales have been led by clinical practitioners.

This week we are told that the changes are actually about making

it more efficient, effective, and it is about saving money. Let's

have that debate. If the Government is now saying this is about saving

money, let's have a debate about the resources we have in Wales, the

way we spend them, but it must be on the basis of Equitable spending

throughout Wales. All citizens of Wales must have the best possible

access to healthcare. I don't think anyone is arguing about specialist

surgery when you haven't a particular condition and you have

to travel for that - sometimes you can travel to mid-Wales for good

surgery, but we must have that debate about core services and the

maintenance of things like maternity and accident and

emergency in many parts of Wales. The public and let us as

politicians to bring those concerned to this place, our

national debating chamber. Your government is talking about moving

forward with the reorganisation of the health service. How can you do

this against a backdrop of these financial pressures? I don't think

the Government is focusing on reorganisation of health services

as his primary way of doing things. It intends to remain on the same

footprint for the delivery of health services into the future. It

is one of the big ways we are different... Restructuring is a

better word. But the health minister has set up plans for

change. The health service has changed every single year since

1948. It would be quite wrong if we weren't thinking of how we can

change. Her new treatments arrive, new things are possible, all

different parts of Wales fades different challenges. There are

challenges of rural services. Herein Cardiff there will be other

challengers of density, immigration, other sort of challenges that the

local board he has to face. Very quickly, I want to ask you about

the Public Accounts Committee identify that already services are

being temporarily closed. Is the reality, despite all the politics,

that we will see more of this in the year ahead? We are a difficult

journey because there will be less money in future than there is now.

Along the way there will be some but -- bumpy parts in the road, but

I think there is a direction of travel the minister has outlined,

and provided that it is clinically led and we managed to secured

Bayern's from local populations, I think we will manage to create a

health service in Wales which will continue to deliver those sort of

things which we all know are so important. Simon Thomas, briefly,

beyond the politics it is a downward trend of funding. There is

no doubt we are in an age of austerity. I don't disagree with

mark about his analysis, but on one fundamental thing, I don't think

the health minister is setting out a clear vision at all. I think some

of these health boards are not capable of delivering this change.

Interesting times. Thank you for joining me.

We will have a quick word with our guests before going to Prime

Minister's Questions. William, what are the main topics that you think

will come up today? I should think it will be NHS. Do you think Wales

will get a mention? Yes, he brings it in where he can. It is a serious

issue and he is not getting away from it. It needs to be looked at

more indulgently because these are reforms, which are supportive.

Privatisation, some say. After all, the funding for doctors works quite

well. Some of the doctors say they don't want to. Some, not all.

where do you stand on this? It was mentioned earlier that 15 or so MPs

will stir up government for -- trouble for the Government. I am

reminded of the way that doctors opposed the reforms when the NHS

was initially set up. The Lib Dems have moderated his health bill

quite a lot, and I think we are pressing for even more change to it,

and I think that is right. The 15 Lib Dem MPs have passed the

pressure which is being put on the Government both externally and

within the government itself, and I think Nick Clegg and other

ministers are working to get more changes to this bill. They are

right to do this. We do need assurances. Whereas we believe that

there does need to be a diversity of provision with doctors having

more control over the way patients are treated, we also need to make

sure that we have those guarantees that this is not a privatisation of

the health service. This is about keeping the health service free of

access and in public control. Andrew Lansley is under huge

pressure. I saw him being heckled by a lady in the street the other

day. There is pressure on the Government to scrap this bill,

isn't there? Do you think that they should face up to opposition in a

mature way say yes, actually, we will scrap it? That was one of the

few birds votes of opposition. You have the chance to work out a

scheme. This is one of them. It has some important features which will

alter the NHS in England. But not for the better? There will always

be critics. We have got to reinforce that this is not a

nationalisation and there will be a minister in charge at the top. But

devolving it to the local area with large practices to be able to spend

the money as they think best in the interests of their patients must be

a way forward. Let's have a quick chat about the dynamic between Ed

Miliband and David Cameron. Ed Miliband seems to have had a fight

back of late. Who do you think is going to come out on top today?

cannot say anything other than the Prime Minister, but many of my

parliamentary colleagues regard Ed Miliband as our best advantage.

What you make of that? Ed Miliband has had a lot of advice from John

Prescott and Dennis Skinner, so one would expect him to improve his

performance in the House of Commons. But all the polls show that people

don't trust him and don't like him. On the health issue they seem to be

siding with Labour? Yes, they do. Labour have had an effective

campaign on that, but they still have this credibility problem which

they can't get over. Let's head Let's cross now to Westminster and

to our political correspondent, Tomos Livingstone.

Has the Secretary of State considered the recent study that

even informing a steering zone within the UK, they can inherit

debt at 80 % of GDP and face tougher constraints on levels of

tax and borrowing. I have studied the report and the honourable

gentleman puts its conclusions succinctly and these are points

that the SNP have failed to answer. Questions to the Prime Minister.

am sure the whole House wishes to join me in sending our deepest

condolences to the families and friends of the RAF pilots because

his service and sacrifice to our nation will never be forgotten.

Members of the House will also have seen the reports that the talented

and respected correspondent from the Sunday Times has been killed in

the bombings in Syria. This is a reminder of the risks journalists

take to tell people of the world what is happening. Our thoughts are

with his family and friends. I shall have further meetings later

today. I wish to echo the Commons about brave troops and a brave

journalist. The Prime Minister has said in the past that one of his

main priorities is fighting crime. Can he explain why there has been a

cut in over 4,000 in the number of front line police officers since

the election? In South Yorkshire, the police helicopter which was

responsible for apprehending over 700 criminals is going to be

scrapped by the police minister against the advice of the chief

constable. How can we explain these matters which clearly indicate to

the public that crime will rise when it is simply another broken

promise by this government? On the issue of the helicopter, there are

talks under way between the South Yorkshire police and I am confident

helicopter coverage will be maintained. Recorded crime is down

under this government and if you look at the figures from Her

Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary, they believe there

will be more police in visible policing roles this March than

there were a year ago. A coach crash has recently claimed the life

of a much-loved teacher and many schoolchildren were injured. Will

the Prime Minister join me in expressing his sympathy and wish

them a speedy recovery and return home. I am very grateful to my

honourable friend for raising this desperately sad case. I know he was

much respected in the local community and will be hugely missed.

The thoughts and sincere condolences of everyone in the

House will be with my honourable friend's constituents and everyone

who has been affected. Our staff in France continue to provide support

to all those still in France. Aware ambassador has visited children in

hospital and is liaising with the local authorities and will do

everything he can to get people safely home. Ed Miliband. Can I

join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to Ryan Thomas in from

number two Squadron RAF Regiment who died serving our country. Our

thoughts are with his family and friends. We are also thinking about

the tragic death of a brave and tireless reporter in many

continents and many difficult situations. She was also an

inspiration for women. There are reports in the hours before her

death showed her work at its finest and our thoughts are with her

family and friends. On Monday, the Prime Minister held his emergency

NHS summit and managed to exclude them main organisations

representing the following professions. The GPs, the nurses,

the midwives, the pathologists, the psychiatrists, the physiotherapists

and, just for good measure, the radiologist's. How can he possibly

think it is a good idea to hold a health summit which excludes the

vast majority of people who work in the NHS? What I want to do is

safeguard our NHS. On this side of the House, we are putting more

money into the NHS. Money that they are specifically committed to

taking out. Money alone is not going to be enough. We have got to

meet the challenge of an ageing population, more expensive

treatments, more people on long- term conditions, and that is why we

have got to reform the NHS. My son it was above those organisations,

including chemical groups across the country, GP practices that want

to put these reforms in place. Miliband. So he has got no answer

to this ridiculous summits which excluded the vast majority of

people who work in the medical profession. Let's remind ourselves

what the Prime Minister said just a few short months ago during his so-

called listening exercise. He says change, if it is to really work,

should have the support of people who work in our NHS. We have got to

take our nurses and doctors with us. Now he can't even be in the same

room as the doctors and nurses. Doesn't that tell him that he has

lost the confidence of those who work in our National Health

Service? What I want to know, when is he going to ask a question about

the substance of the reforms? He does not want to ask about choice

because they used to be in favour of choice but they won't back

choice in the bill. He does not want to ask about competition. They

used to favour competition but now they won't support competition in

the bill. They used to support GPs being in charge of health budgets

but they won't supported even though now it is in the bill. Why

not ask a serious question and why not, incidentally, as we are being

kept here to vote at 7pm on the publication of the risk registers,

why don't you ask a question about that? Ed Miliband. Mr Speaker, if

he does not think it is a serious question about his exclusion of the

vast majority of people who work in our NHS,... Order! The House must

come down. Tranquil and statesmanlike is the mode to which

members should scribe. We will come to the substance of his bill, Mr

Speaker, but let me ask him this important question. There were

people who attended the summit and expressed deep concerns about his

bill, even those who were invited to his summit. Can he tell us what

changes, if any, he is planning to make to his bill. Why doesn't he

stop worrying about my diary and start worrying about his complete

lack of substance? We are going ahead with these reforms because we

think it is good for patients to have choice, we think it is good to

have the involvement of the Independent and voluntary sectors

in the NHS, we think it is good to have more emphasis on public health,

that is why we are doing these reforms. Let me remind him of one

thing that he used to believe. He used to believe this and this is

what his Health Secretary said, the private sector puts its capacity

into the NHS for the benefit of NHS patients which I think most people

in this country would celebrate. They are now committed to a 5% cap

on the private sector which would mean hospitals sacking doctors,

sacking nurses, closing wards. Let me ask him again, we are here at

7pm to boast on the whisk register, are you going to ask a question

about it or are you frightened about euro motion? To vote on the

whist -- to vote on the risk register. The Prime Minister will

know that I am not frightened of anything. Ed Miliband. Nobody

believes him and nobody trusts him on the health service. On Monday, I

met with senior staff working on HIV services to explain to me how

this bill will fragment and disrupt services. The Health Secretary

should be quiet and listen to the people who work in the health

service. If he had done some listening before. He should come

down, Mr Speaker. They explained that HIV treatment is Curry

commissioned by one organisation, the Primary Care Trust. Under his

plans, it will be commissioned by three organisations. They said to

me it will damage the world class service they provide for patients.

Why won't he listened to the people who actually know what they are

talking about in the NHS? If the right honourable gentleman is

opposing other organisations that have expertise in AIDS and AIDS

treatment taking part in the NHS, he will be take -- opposing the

Terrence Higgins Trust who do an enormous amount against HIV. This

is complete opportunism from the party opposite. They used to back

choice, they used to back the independent sector, they used to

back reform. You don't save the NHS by an opposing reform, you save the

NHS by delivering reform. Miliband. He does not even

understand his own bill. Mr Speaker, let me just explain to him the

question was about the fragmentation of commissioning and

what the experts... Order! There is a long time to go and I went to get

to the bottom of the Order Paper. I don't think the Prime Minister

wants advice from the Health Secretary. Let me explain to him,

it is about the fragmentation of commissioning. I am glad you have

got it. Maybe when you get up you can answer the question. Order!

Keep me out of it! The reason he has lost the confidence... Order!

Order! Members might be enjoying themselves, I ask them to think of

what the country thinks. What the country thinks of how we conduct

ourselves. He has lost the confidence of the professionals of

the NHS because of the promises he made before the election. Will he

give people a straight answer to the question I asked two weeks ago

and admit he has broken his promise of no top-down reorganisation?

longer, Mr Speaker, and I think we would have to put him on a waiting

list for care. He asks about integration. Let me just explain to

him because I don't suppose he has read the bill, clause 22 and 25.

They place a specific duty on key organisations to integrate health

and social care. The bill is all about integration. But here we are,

question five, and he still won't mention his vote on the risk

registers. I think I know why. I have here Labour's brief for this

afternoon's debate. There is an excellent cent -- section

explaining why you don't publish risk registers. The second argument

and block the publication of the Department of Health's Risk

register in September 2009. -- Andy Burnham. Revealed as a bunch of

rank opportunist, not fit to run opposition, not fit for government.

I will tell you what happened on at the last Labour government, the

lowest waiting times in history. More doctors and nurses than ever

before. The highest patient satisfaction on the NHS. I will

match our record on the NHS with him any day of the week. And the

problem with this Prime Minister is that he asked people to trust him

and he has betrayed that trust. The problem with this Prime Minister is

that on the NHS, he thinks he is right and everyone else is wrong.

It has become not a symbol of how his party has changed but of his

arrogance. I tell him this, this will become his poll tax. He should

listen to the public and he should Six questions and not a mention of

the motion they put in front of the House tonight. To put forward an

argument and then not to back it up, that is an absence of leadership.

Order! Members on both sides of the House I'd yelling at each other. It

is a rude, it is unfair on the Prime Minister and the leader of

the opposition and it should stop. Let me just tell him what is

happening in the health service under this Government. Waiting

times for outpatients down. Waiting times for in-patients down. Number

of people waiting in total down. Number of people waiting for more

than a year has been halved under this Government. Hospital

infections, down to their lowest level. Mixed sex wards, down by 94%.

That is the record we have. 4,000 more doctors, almost a 1000 more

midwives and fewer managers. He talks about what people think about

this government. Let me just remind him what his do time candidate said

about him this week. You are not articulating a vision or a

destination. You are not clearly identified a cause, and nobody is

following you. Your problem is you are not a leader. I could not have

put it better myself. Mr Speaker, in 2009 when the Conservatives do

control of Lancashire County Council, the fostering services

were rated as unsatisfactory. Since then, their budget has reduced by

�120,000, and they are now rated as outstanding. Would my right

honorable Friend join me in congratulating county councillor

Tony and his Conservative colleagues and not any doing more

for less, but doing it better as well? I certainly join my

Honourable Friend, and he makes an important point which is across the

country you have got different councils coping with the issues of

fostering and adoption and producing different results. We

need to publish all of these figures so we can see which

councils are doing well and getting value for money, as they clearly

are in Lancashire. Above all, which families are really doing the best

to get those children out of care and into a warm and loving home.

The national minimum wage has lifted millions of workers out of

poverty, so will the Prime Minister support hard working people and

give a commitment today to drop unjust plans to freeze it?

support the minimum wage, and we have supported its up rating, and

we have already at rated it. It has an important role to play. Somalia

people should have an expectation of life before death. Does not the

conference in London tomorrow give an opportunity to signify to the

corrupt of Somalia that we are all determined to do what we can to

ensure stability of the government in Somalia. Will the Prime Minister

welcome the participation in that conference the President of

Somaliland, given their experience of peace building in that region?

am grateful. We will be welcoming the President of Somalia and to the

conference, and I think Somaliland has taken an important step forward

in showing that you can have better governments, better economic

progress, and I think they are an example that others can follow. But

this government -- conference is about trying to put in place the

building blocks among the international committee, and above

all amounts the Somali people themselves off for a stronger and

safer Somalia. That means taking action on piracy, on hostages,

taking action to support and increase its funding in Mogadishu,

and it means working with all parts of Somalia to give that country,

which has been more blighted by famine and disease and the

terrorism than almost any other in the world, to give that country a

second chance. Given what the Prime Minister has said, will he devote

as much time in facing up to the grievances that the English feel

from the current proposals of devolution as he will be giving to

considering new proposals of devolution to Scotland? Will he

open a major debate here in the House on the English question so

that members from all parts of the House can advise him on what

measures of devolution England needs if we are to gain equity with

other countries of the United Kingdom? Well, we have set up the

West Lothian group to look at this issue, and obviously we want to

make sure that devolution works for everyone in the United Kingdom. I

would cut company slightly with the right honorable Gentleman for the

reason that I believe the UK has been an incredibly successful

partnership between all its members, and I think that, far from wanting

to appeal to English people that in any way to nurture a grievance they

feel, I want to appeal to my fellow Englishman to say that this has

been a stock a great partnership for Scotland and for England, too.

Of course Scotland must make his choice, but we hope it will choose

to remain in this partnership that has done so well for the last 300

years. Does the Prime Leicester agreed that an elected mayor

presents a great opportunity for those of us in Bristol who have

been wrong campaigning for the resurrection of local rail,

including eight loop line around the north of the city? I do support

having elected mayors in our cities. It will be for those cities to Jews,

and I am encouraged by what has happened in Liverpool recently. We

will have referenda recently and people in Bristol will have the

chance to make that choice. At the same time, what people have not

noticed is that the Government is going through a huge act of

devotion to cities in terms of the powers and money that we are

prepared to offer them so that they can build their own futures. If you

think of how Bristol leads Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham,

if you think about how they have built themselves up, it was the

great City figures that are bad for them. The education secretary said

the prime minister's decision to set up the Leveson Inquiry is

having a chilly up -- chilling effect upon the freedom of

expression. Does he speak for the Government? The point I make is

this. It was right to set up the Leveson Inquiry, and that is a

decision for me supported by the entire government. But I do think

that my right honorable Friend is making an important point, which is

even as this inquiry goes on, we want to have a vibrant press that

feels it can call the powerful to account, and we don't want to see

it chilled... Of those sometimes, one may feel some advantage in

having a child, but that is not what we want. Many of my

constituents will be as supportive of the Chancellor's refusal to sign

off on the EU accounts. Does the Prime Minister agree with me and my

constituents that it is totally unacceptable that for 17 years they

have failed to get orderlies to sign off on their accounts?

Honourable Friend rise is an important point. It was also the

Dutch and the Swedes as well. For too long, these accounts have not

been properly dealt with and Ford has not been properly dealt with,

and it is right to make this stand. Last week in Edinburgh the Prime

Minister said there were more powers on the table for Scotland

but could not name any of them. A few months ago... Cannot buy

Messett name one power that he has on his mind from this latest U-turn

-- can be Prime Minister name one power? I thought the Scottish

Nationalist Party favoured separation. As soon as you are

offered a referendum that gives you the chance to put that in front of

the Scottish people East are running away. Members of this house

will have the chance to debate the importance of cycling, following

the Times fit of Cycling Campaign. The Minister for cycling has made

welcome announcement of investment but there is still more to do. Will

the Prime Minister commit the Government to support in this

campaign, increasing investment in a cycling and take greater steps to

promote cycling across the country? I think the Times campaign is an

will stop anyone who has got on a bicycle, particularly in one of our

busiest cities, knows that you are taking your life into your hands

every time you do so. We do need to do more to try it and make cycling

safer. The government is making it easier for camp -- councils to

install mirrors at junctions. We are putting �11 million into

training for children, and �50 million into better cycle routes

across the country. If we want to encourage the growth in cycling

that we need to encourage campaigns like this. A company has won

contracts from the DWP alone are worth �224 million. In view of the

fact that their record numbers of unemployed people, and that

employees of this company have been arrested, what action is he taking

to ensure that neither flammable unemployed people, nor the tax

payer, are victims of of this -- vulnerable unemployed people.

is an important issue. It dates back two years but the schemes run

by the previous government. As I understand it, it was the company

itself that raised the issue with the relevant authorities. There is

an ongoing police investigation so it would be inappropriate for me to

comment, but in is to be thorough and get to the truth, and then it

can take into account its findings. Generations of young people have

benefited from a work experience schemes. Does the -- would the

Prime Minister praised those companies who would do everything

they can to encourage work experience schemes, unlike the

militants hard left to would not any shut down these schemes, but

would rather see people get a hand out as opposed to a hand up in

life? I think the Honourable Lady will speak for many in this House

and the overwhelming majority of this country who think that

companies offering work his parents steams is a thoroughly good thing -

- work experience schemes. This is not a compulsory scheme. It is

something that young people ask to go on. The findings are that around

half of them are getting work at the end of these schemes. That is a

far better outcome than the future Jobs Fund, and about one-twentieth

of the cost. We should encourage young people to expand work

experience because it gives people the chance of seeing work and all

that it involves and give them a better chance of getting a job.

There are thousands of aid workers concerned and angry about the

Eurofighter Indian contract. Earlier this month we held a

meeting with Tory MPs. When will you arrange a meeting at 10 Downing

Street for all Lancashire MPs? Prime Minister? I have met with a

number of Members of Parliament who have BAE in their constituencies,

including the Honourable Member for Hull, who came to see me with the

Honourable Member for Booth at the same time. This government is

committed to helping with Euro fighter in every way that we can.

That is why I have been undertaking trips right across the Middle East.

Let me say, when I do, I often get criticised by Labour MPs for taking

BAE or Rolls-Royce on the aeroplane. I think it is right to fly the flag

for Great British businesses, and I will continue to do so. Mr Speaker,

last week at the breakfast table my wife was saying how she knew that

the Prime Minister wanted to deport the terrorist Abu Qatada straight

away and put the national interest first. But she knew it was being

blocked by the Deputy Prime Minister and the Liberal Democrats.

Suddenly, our 11-year-old son Thomas asked, "is Nick Clegg a

goodie or a baddie?". What does the Prime Minister think? There is only

so much detail I can take from the bone household. In believing that I

am very keen that Abu Qatada should be deported, Mrs Bone is indeed

psychic. That is why the Home Secretary and Home Office ministers

are working so hard with the Jordanians to get the assurances

that we need so that this can indeed take place. The Deputy Prime

Minister of Barry backs that approach. Both the Prime Minister

and the Housing Minister have told the House that rents are falling in

the private rented sector when the evidence is that rents are rising,

including from a most recent survey. Will the Prime Minister now take

this opportunity to put the record straight, or will he continue to

blame that the tenant when the real responsibility lies with landlords

charging ever higher rents and the failure of his Government's

housebuilding programme? I have to say, coming from a party that saw

housebuilding fall to its lowest level since the 1920s, I think I

will take that with a lorry load of salt. We have put great effort into

stamping out and kicking out races and in football in this country.

When my right honorable friend brings together the support --

Sport later on today, will he assure the House he will do

everything he can to ensure that prejudice does not creep back into

the game, and that races and stays It is worrying, some of the recent

signs we have seen. Why this matters so much, not just a

football but also government and everyone in our country, is because

football and footballers are role models to a young people. I think

it is important to bring people together and make sure we keep

races and out of football for good. Could I associate myself with the

Prime Minister's condolences to the member of the armed forces who lost

his life in the last week and I am sure the Prime Minister would like

to join me in thanking the thousands of people who serve in

the reserve armed forces. However, would he agree with me that it was

inappropriate and even arrogant that when constituents who serve in

the reserve Marine forces in Dundee in my constituency express concerns

about the possible closure of that attachment, I write to the Ministry

of Defence and they refuse to give me a definitive answer? I thank the

honourable gentleman for raising the case of the brave man from the

RAF Regiment who gave his life and all those who serve in Afghanistan.

He is absolutely right that the reserve forces in our country are a

huge asset and we want to see them expanded. We put over �1 billion

into that expansion between now and 2015 to make sure we can do that.

No decision has been taken on its future and there is no intention to

cut the number of Royal Marine reservists in Scotland. If you look

at the whole issue of our ground forces, we need more people to join

the reserves. Everybody in this House to likes our Territorial Army

should back the recruitment campaigns because if we're going to

move to an army of 18,000 regulars and 14,000 reservists, we need a

cultural change where we respect what our TA and other reserve

forces are doing. US marshals will on Friday escort my 65-year-old

constituent from Heathrow to a jail in Texas where he will face

pressure to plea-bargain in order to avoid lengthy incarceration

pending a financially ruinous trial for a crime he insists he does not

commit. What steps is the Prime Minister considering to reform the

US-the UK extradition treaty which has been so unfair. I understand

why my honourable friend raises this case. In this case, he has

been through a number of processes including the magistrates court and

the High Court and the Home Secretary has considered his case.

He raises the boy more generally of the report into the extradition

arrangements which he has made and we are now considering. The Home

Secretary is going to examine his findings and take into account the

views of Parliament that have been expressed in recent debates.

Balancing these is absolutely vital but we need to remember why we

entered into these extradition treaties, which is to show respect

to each other's judicial processes and make sure people who are

accused of crimes can be tried for those crimes and Britain can

benefit from that as well. Government response to the unfair

relationship between pub companies and their licensees so far has been

self-regulation not statutory regulation. On 12th January, this

has voted unanimously to set up a review panel to be agreed by the

business Select Committee to review with the implementation of self-

regulation. To date, there has been absolutely no response from the

Government. Can the Prime Minister tell me whether he is backing the

will of Parliament? I am a keen supporter of Britain's pubs so I

will write to the honourable gentleman and getting a good answer.

He in his speech made in Edinburgh last week, the Prime Minister

described Scotland as a... Having now visited Edinburgh, does he

agree with me that it is the perfect location for this

institution? It is one of the locations which is being considered

but there are a number of bids that have also been made from different

towns, cities and regions of the country that all want to host this

excellent innovation, the Green Investment Bank. Can I ask the

Prime Minister, returning to the issue of the NHS, why has the Prime

Minister have broken his promise not to engage in another top down

reorganisation of the National Health Service? What we are doing

is abolishing the bureaucracy which has been holding the NHS back. We

are going to be cutting in this Parliament for �0.5 billion of

bureaucracy by getting rid of the Primary Care Trusts and the

strategic health authorities, all of which will be invested into

patient care. His own party's policy is to save a real increases

in NHS spending are "irresponsible". We think it is responsible, that is

why we are putting the money in and he would take the money out. There

have been loss of interruptions today but I am concerned about the

interests of backbenchers. When I was in Ethiopia with Save the

Children, I saw how malnutrition is stunting the growth of the world's

poorest children. Does the Prime Minister agreed that the UK has a

opportunity to lead the international debate in tackling

malnutrition which will help the growth of the world's children?

think the honourable lady is entirely right about this. Not only

because we work with excellent organisations like Save the

Children which are doing such excellent work but the UK is the

second large and -- largest bilateral donor into the Horn of

Africa where we have seen so many people starving and dying. Not only

are we doing our bit in terms of money, Investment and time, but it

gives us an opportunity to lead the debate. Ten Minute Rule motion.

That is Prime Minister's questions over for another week. David

Cameron asked whether Tony Blair was a goody lorry Paddy. -- or a

Paddy. The Speaker said that the people

watching would not appreciate a spectacle. Did you appreciated?

quite like it. You don't want to drown out what people are saying

but it is all amplified these days. When I used to chair here, I used

to enjoy it, to research level. I think the public expect their

representatives to be responding, not sitting there choir leave.

Let's get on to what was said. The debate between Ed Miliband and

David Cameron on the NHS. There was no mention of Wales Today. He gave

the usual robust action which he is quite well known for. It is

unfortunate that Ed Miliband can't seem to depart from a script. There

were one or two instances where he was actually of script and was

quite good. Andrew Lansley was sat to people down from the Prime

Minister today. Last week he was miles away. Do you think the fact

he is a bit nearer suggests the NHS Bill is going to live to fight

another day? I think it will go through but the question is, in

what form? The symbolism is not lost on anyone here. Andrew Lansley

moving closer to the Prime Minister. I think the Prime Minister feels he

has got a back the Cabinet minister. I am sure there will be further

changes to this bill. Peter Bone, the Conservative MP, often makes

restaurant -- a reference to his wife. He asked whether the Prime

Minister thought Nick Clegg was a good man or a baddie. Do you

welcome that sort of open hostility towards the Lib Dems? It is part of

the cut-and-thrust of politics. don't often hear it in the Forum of

the debating chamber though. You do get it in the debating chamber. We

have had members feeling they need to reassert their dominance within

the coalition because they feel the Liberal Democrats are getting too

much. And the Liberal Democrats are getting a lot out of this

government. Do you think the Liberal Democrats are getting a

good deal? On many things, many of us feel that, but it is part of the

coalition. You have those tensions and you have got to work them

through. There, David Cameron and Nick Clegg has done extremely well.

I am sure they have been some pretty definite divergence of

opinion but they have managed publicly extremely well and it is

to the benefit of the country. There was a question today from the

member for Edinburgh West. I forget his name. About the Green

Investment Bank and whether the Prime Minister had considered

locating it in Edinburgh. The Government in Wales are keen to

have it brought to Wales. Is that something you would support?

Certainly. I believe as part of the negotiation we weren't able to

lobby for Wales. The Cardiff District might be an attraction for

them but let's see what happens. Would you make a call for it to be

in Newport? Almost certainly. We could do with anything in Newport

at the moment. It looks like that would be really good. It is not

easy at the moment. We have got a very attractive location for it in

Swansea and we have a real day. Coming up on the programme we will

be hearing from an Assembly Member who wants us all to be pushing our

teeth properly. -- brushing. MPs are calling on the Welsh

Government to urgently consider using the brand of the Welsh

Development Agency more than five years after it was abolished. The

Welsh Affairs Committee of MPs says in its review into inward

investment that the brand can be used to improve Wales' global

identity. Our reporter, Bethan James, has been talking to the

chairman of the committee. Wales is failing to attract foreign

business, that is the message from the Welsh Affairs Select Committee,

and the chair of that committee joins me in Westminster. This is

pretty heavy criticism of Welsh Government policy. I would like to

think it is constructive and it is dealing not just with the policy of

the current government in the Welsh Assembly but also previous ones.

And governments in the UK. But we can't ignore the fact that during

the 80s, Wales was getting around 40 % of all the inward investment

coming to the UK and now it is getting around 3%. That is a

terrible indictment of what has gone on. Who is to blame for that?

Do there are things going on in the world that have affected inward

Investment but the fact the percentage has fallen in Wales is

something that we need to look at very carefully. I am not going to

put the blame on any one person, one party or one government. We

have looked at the fact that we no longer has the Welsh Development

Agency or read body that is dedicated to selling Wales to the

rest of the world and that is something we all want to see

addressed. We have looked at the fact that various big countries --

companies are saying to us that people have not got the right

skills. When you look at the report into skills, you see that skills in

Wales are the lowest within the United Kingdom. That is something

that should definitely be addressed. But we have looked at other things

as well. The fact that some big companies have great rapport with

their local communities. They get people in from the schools and are

trying to improve the image that Engineering jobs have. Quite right,

because they are great, well-paid jobs. We need to do more to change

the negative image of them. There is a lot of constructive stuff in

here which I hope the Government will take heart from. You want an

agency set up like the Welsh Development Agency was, but would

it be a quango? Quango is such a poisonous word in politics.

Especially in Welsh politics. have stopped short of saying the

Welsh to Balham and agency should come back but the Assembly can

think about this. -- Welsh Development Agency. Now there is no

dedicated body to selling Wales. What we want to see is much better

relationships so that where there are companies that are interested

in coming to the UK, somebody is saying to them, why don't you look

at Wales? We have got a great work force, we have got great schools,

it is a lovely place to live and the standard of living is cheaper

in Wales than in London. I would love to go and sell Wales myself

and I am trying to do it myself. We have got a great message but nobody

is putting it across at the moment. We would like somebody to be doing

that. What about the relationship between the UK government and the

Welsh Government? Is very good We found that the relationship

between a new Katie I and the Welsh government was not as good as it

could be. -- UK. I would say that the Welsh Assembly Government needs

to do a lot more to work with the government in Westminster. The

government in Westminster is happy to work with them. We hear from

Vince Cable and others, they want to see the economic development and

work with it but have so far not been able to get meetings. The

Secretary of State for Wales has been told she might get one every

six months if she's lucky. We were told she was not willing to speak

to us at all. What message does this send out to businesses? They

were just see a load of politicians fighting with each other because

one not in the Welsh Assembly don't like the fact there are politicians

with a different party hat on in Westminster. That is not the

message we should be sending out. Different parties come and go in

Westminster and in Cardiff. The fact of the matter is, all of us

ought to be big enough to say whoever is in power, and whichever

legislator, we will all work together when it comes to selling

Wales. Strong words against the business minister in this report.

Why don't you summon her to Parliament? We could do that, but I

think it would be rather undignified to send people round

with pointed swords to go and summon the business minister to

Parliament. If she has got nothing to say to us about this matter it

and if she does not even want to criticise the UK government, which

she would be entitled to do so if she wanted to, I don't want to push

that to be possible conclusion. I would just like people to reflect

on the message that it sends out, and I saw in the Western Mail only

the other week that Wales was pitching for the Greenbank to come

to Wales. A great idea. But what chance have they got if ministers

in England, in London, are going to say, what is the point of sending

it to Wales? What are the chances of anyone answering our questions

and less they are trapped in by force? That is why we are going to

lose out on things like that. I think the whole of Wales lose his

as a result. Most people, whether they are Labour, Plaid or liberal,

want to see politicians working for whales and not getting into a strop

and say they are not going to work with somebody else because they are

from a different political party. David Davis MP, the chairman of the

Welsh Affairs Select Committee. The Welsh government says it has

already developed a more flexible model fit for their future, and we

did ask the been his -- business Minister for an interview but she

was not available. Let's head off to Mark in the Oriel for us. A I am

going to talk to the Labour AM Christine Chapman. Thank you for

joining us. She is also chair of the children and young people

committed. Your Committee has been looking at the issue of our

children's oral health and it is quite disturbing. We have got among

the worst aural hell for young children in the UK. Yes, and I

think that the problem is that it impact on other health problems. If

a child has an affection in the mouth, it is likely that they may

be off school. It has a wider impact, not just as far as their

teeth are concerned. People might be wondering why it is so much

worse for us than in other parts of the UK. We know that this is worth

-- worse in poorer areas, and the design to smile programme which we

have examined we think is a good programme, but part of it is to do

with education. Today we have launched the report in a school,

and the programme is about teaching children to brush their teeth on a

regular basis, and again, they were very enthusiastic about that. Be

teachers were enthusiastic as well. It is about taking those messages

home that this has to be done on a twice daily basis. It is as much

about the children teaching their parents, we would expect maybe the

parents should be responsible and know what they have got to do.

parents would, but unfortunately we are not living in a world where

every parent would do that. Again, we need to get those messages home

to those children. I think the programme will be successful, but

there is further work that needs to be done. Is there an issue as well

- there is a wider issue about dentistry, and have the dental

profession reacts to children. Is there a problem that at the moment

dentists work according to treatments, so they are acting

after the problem rather than preventing it? One of the

recommendations is that we have asked the Welsh government to look

at revisiting the contract so they -- the dentist could be funded

according to the preventive work. If you're a child, there is often

an issue around going to the dentist, but children need to visit

the dentist regularly, and that person needs to be a friend of the

child as well so they get used to it. There needs to be attention

given to this. Is there scope to put this into schools as well?

initially. There is a community dental service, but we need to

clarify exactly what their role is on this. The other thing we are

concerned with is the high level of anaesthetics. In 2010, there were

9,000 general anaesthetics carried out on children. It is almost taken

for granted that it is normal to have teeth out. But this can be

prevented. This is a purely preventable disease. We need to

eradicate it. And of course it causes young children a lot of pain.

Of course. Thank you for your time. Families MPs are calling for a

change of the law to help families of missing people. He has been

talking to our reporter. The just a select committee are today calling

for a presumption of death act. The man who went to the committee to

ask them to look into this matter is the MP Chris Evans and he joins

me in Westminster. Chris Evans, why is there a need for this

presumption of death act? The law is confused. We have had such an

act in Scotland since 1977. Often because the law is confused, police

officers do not know where to start and then loved ones are given the

runaround for a number of years and they don't know where to go. What

other problems that families are facing when their loved ones go

missing? When someone goes missing, direct memberships will get frozen,

gym membership and credit cards won't get paid, mortgages won't get

paid, and it can cause severe financial difficulties. There is

nothing they can do. Bank accounts are often frozen, so they are in

limbo. I believe you have been involved in this case because the

sister of a music -- musician's de Mai is in your constituency? Yes,

she has been a stout campaigner in this area, and she brought this to

my attention. What is she saying to you? Basically, they don't know

where to turn. This is such an unusual thing to happen. A

solicitor does not necessarily know what to do. The all-party group on

missing people said it was like crazy paving in many respects and

when one Saturday piece of legislation across the board can be

into decent people will know where to go. The Ministry of Justice me

to implement an advice campaign as well. So, if a presumption of death

act is introduced, what would this mean? How would it change the law?

It would do two things. It would mean a stat to piece of legislation

for missing people, and also guardianship, so the family of a

missing person could apply for guardianship to sort out the

financial affairs while they are missing. This has been the case in

Scotland for the last 35 years. In any one case as somebody returned.

I think it is sensible and it does not cost any money. What about the

concerns of people abusing, wanting to go missing? I think you are

talking about the famous can a man. Any one person has ever returned in

all the time Scotland has had that legislation. So, at the legislation

has worked effectively in Scotland and Northern Ireland. How likely is

it to happen? It was very encouraging when it came before the

committee. The Ministry of Justice wants three months to respond to

this report. Let's hope there is some kind of action. I Chris Evans,

thank you. Time Bock a quick word with our

guests before we go. -- time for. This afternoon, the Lib Dems have a

debate in the assembly, wanting to talk about all manner of things

relating to the charity AWEMA. You are leading on this debate. Tell us

what you want to get out of it. There are so many unanswered

questions about AWEMA, which I don't believe they will get to the

rid of. In particular, what ministers did with the very --

various warnings about AWEMA in 2003, 2004, to that a seven. Why do

we find ourselves in 2012 with "broo" being dissolved because of

issues raised eight years ago? Those sort of things have not been

announced in the chamber. Ministers have clammed up and we need to get

to the root of that. We also need to have a proper protocol in place

to make sure this does not happen again. You say the ministers have

clammed up over this - do you have any inclination why? They are

saying because there are more reports to come and a possible

police investigation. My concern is that the whole thing is being

kicked into the long grass and ministers are hiding behind these

reports. They should be asking pertinent questions about what they

knew and what they did about it at the appropriate time. William,

yesterday your party leader raised this issue and tried to broaden it

out during First Minister's Questions, about whether there

might be any other organisations that have perhaps been overlooked

in the way Peter is suggesting that AWEMA was. I think he is right. It

is a sensitive issue, and they have got to be certain that when it

reports were made, as this one was, years ago with large amounts of

public money, are there any others? Are there any reports that we have

not seen? It is very important. There was also a suggestion that

the links between AWEMA and the Labour Party... They are quite a

transparent in that way and well known. It is not wise, but it does

occur. What we must be certain of - we only need to go back to the old

days where a lot of Welsh authorities, when they advertised

for staff, they had to put on the bottom "canvassing will disqualify".

That is outrageous. We don't want to go back to those days when any

political appointees are made. In this case, the reports from all

those people looking at AWEMA must be transparent and available to all.

Peter, this debate will happen this afternoon. What happens then, what

can actually come from it? It is part of the scrutiny process. I

would like to see the minister come before the quality committee to

answer detailed questions to get to the root of it. This debate has

started that process but we need some answers and we need to see

where the ministers will answer than today. Carwyn Jones said his

government has nothing to hide. Do you accept that? I am still waiting

for a 2004 report which we found in the library, so clearly they are

not giving us all their information. If they have nothing to hide, they

will be no doubt that that they will have to -- one to answer

questions. How do you find that in the library? A researcher went to

us the library if they have it, and they found a copy of the report. It

just happened to be there. There were no other copies anywhere else.

I am beginning to wonder whether the Welsh government have it.

Carwyn Jones was not sure himself. Thank you for joining us. That is