Conservatives - With Andrew Neil and Bethan Rhys Roberts Ask the Leader

Thank you for your company here in Rio - it's time now to hand

you over to Rhos near Wrexham and to Bethan Rhys Roberts

All this week, we are putting top politicians on the spot. We start

with the Conservatives. In 30 minutes, this audience has the

questions for the man who represents Wales at Theresa May's top table.

First, let's hear from the Prime Minister, who has been speaking to

Andrew Neil. Welcome to Ask The Leader.

Prime Minister, you started this campaign with a huge,

It's now down to single digits in some polls.

Well, Andrew, there's only one poll that counts

in any election campaign, as I'm sure you know

from your long experience, and that's the one that takes place

on the 8th of June when people have actually cast their votes.

When they have made that choice, which is a crucial choice -

I think this genuinely is the most crucial election I have seen

in my lifetime because it's about getting Brexit negotiations

right, getting the right deal for Britain from Europe,

and, going beyond that, a plan for a stronger

And I believe that I've set out my vision for that strength

in negotiations and that stronger plan and the choice is,

who's going to be doing those negotiations, me or Jeremy Corbyn?

So why do you think your lead is narrowing?

As I say, the only poll that counts is the one that takes

What I'm doing, what I and my team are doing, is going out around

the country talking to people, hearing from them, and talking

to them about this crucial choice that the country will face

Because, you know, so much depends on us getting those

It's not just the next five years but it's beyond the next five years.

Our standard of living, our place in the world.

And you need a strong hand in those negotiations and you need strength

in those negotiations, and, as I say, there's only

going to be a choice between two people as to who is sitting opposite

those 27 European countries, me or Jeremy Corbyn.

But could you be in a little bit of trouble now?

You were so sure of winning that you thought you could get away

with a load of uncosted and half-baked policies.

No, I've never taken anything for granted about this election.

I called this election because I think it is important

that the country has certainty over the next five years,

has the strong and stable leadership that I think it needs,

as I've just explained, particularly for those

And what I saw was that other parties were trying to frustrate,

promising to try to frustrate those Brexit negotiations,

so I thought it was right to call an election and ask people

But your policies are uncosted and half-baked, aren't they?

What we have set out in the manifesto is a series

of policies which address what I see and what I think are

the five great challenges that we face as a country.

What I have tried to be is to show people that actually

if we are going to build that stronger Britain, we have got to be

willing to face up to these challenges and fix them.

Well, let's look at social care for the elderly.

Four days ago, your manifesto rejected a cap on social care costs.

Nothing has changed from the principles on social care

policy that we set out in our manifesto.

Let me just explain, if I may, why I think it's important,

why this is one of the great challenges we face,

In ten years' time there will be 2 million more

Our social care system will collapse unless we do something about it.

We could try and pretend the problem isn't there and hope

that it will go away, but it won't.

We could play politics with it, as the Labour Party is doing.

Or we could show how we can fix it and that's what I've done.

Jeremy Hunt, on the day you launched your manifesto,

last Thursday, the Health Secretary, he said, yes, we are dropping

the cap and we are being completely explicit in our manifesto,

Of course Andrew Dilnot had brought forward previous

proposals for a cap, but Jeremy also went on to say

that what we wanted to have was a system

that was fair to all generations, and that's what we're doing.

Your manifesto rejects a cap, it gives a reason why

you don't want a cap, now you're going to have a cap.

You need to be honest, I would suggest, and tell

the British people you've changed your mind.

First of all, Andrew, I'm being absolutely honest

with the British people about the big challenge that we face

and absolutely honest with them about the need for us to deal

with this now, to start fixing it now.

Now what I've put forward is a social care policy which means

that people won't have to worry if they are sitting there month

after month, worrying about money coming out of their bank account

to pay for their care, worrying about how long that will last.

They won't have to worry because they won't have to be paying

They won't have to worry that they're going to have to sell

And they'll be able to pass ?100,000 onto their families when they die,

What I've done today is I've seen the scaremongering, frankly,

that we've seen over the weekend, I've seen the way that Jeremy Corbyn

wants to sneak into Number Ten by playing on the fears

of old and vulnerable people and I've clarified what we will be

putting in the green paper which I set out in the manifesto.

So Jeremy Corbyn is now rewriting your manifesto?

That's what it sounds like, you've reacted to him.

Andrew, we have not rewritten the manifesto.

The principles on which we have based our social care policy remain

We need to ensure that we have long-term

We need to be able to ensure we can fund social care for the future.

We're doing the honest thing about putting a proposal

to the British people and they will make

How can it be honest, Prime Minister, to reject a cap

in your manifesto and four days later say, we're

What we set out in our manifesto was a series of principles.

It was to say to people, first of all, this is a big issue,

we need to address it, and we are being honest that we must

I'm not going to bury my head in the sand, I'm not

going to play politics with it, which is what Jeremy

You're just going to change your mind.

What I've seen is that people have been worried by some of the things

that the Labour Party has been claiming, and others indeed,

the Liberal Democrats too, about what our policy means.

In some cases the complete opposite of what our policy is.

But when Labour said you were against a cap,

they were right until today, you were against the cap.

What we have done is clarified what will be in this green paper.

Here is our social care policy, here is what we're doing.

We want to protect people, we want people not to have the worry,

day to day, about being able to pay for their social care.

That's why we are fixing this problem, that's why we're

What I have said today is I've heard the scaremongering,

I've seen how Labour want to try to sneak

into Number Ten, Jeremy Corbyn wants to try to get into Number Ten

by playing on fears, by misrepresenting our policy.

What we're doing is ensuring people will not have to sell their house

They won't have to worry about those monthly bills for their care,

and they'll be able to protect more money than they have been

But it's a cap on lifetime social costs which worry people as well.

I mean, this must be the first time in modern history that a party has

actually broken a manifesto policy before the election!

What we have done, Andrew, I set out in my manifesto

the challenges that we need to address as a government.

And I've been very clear with people.

There are two ways you can approach this issue.

You can say to people, we have an ageing society,

our system will collapse unless we do something about it,

You can ignore it, put your head in the sand, or you can try

I think it's only fair to people to say, this is a problem

and we need to fix it now, that's what I want to do.

I want to fix it so people don't have the worry

Now that you're in favour of a cap, can you give us an idea

of what the cap might be, the amount we'll have

What we're going to do, as we said in our manifesto,

is publish, we referred to the green paper, of course a green paper,

many people may not realise a green paper is a consultation.

So we want to take people's views, the views of charities,

the views of others, on how the system

What I've said today is that we will have in that

consultation that concept of an absolute limit on the costs

So we're protecting people for the future, we're providing

a system that provides sustainability in our social

care for the future, and we got an ageing population

and we need to do this otherwise our system will collapse.

Why did you not put the consultation on a cap in your manifesto?

Instead, your manifesto rejects a cap.

No, what we've put in the manifesto is that we will have a consultation

and the principles on which our social care policy will be based.

That, I think, was the right thing to do.

Now, if we are re-elected, we will have that consultation.

But I think the key issue is that there's a choice

here between parties, a choice between Jeremy Corbyn,

who is playing politics with this, doesn't want to address this issue

You're not playing politics with this, Prime Minister?

You're now in favour of a cap because of a backlash,

No, Andrew, what I'm worried about is the way in which there have

been fake claims about our policy which are deliberately trying

What I've done is addressed that issue today and I'm very clear that

whoever is in government, whoever is Prime Minister,

whether it is me or Jeremy Corbyn, we need to address this issue,

we need to fix it and that's what I'm going to do.

Because many people have said your manifesto is quite vague

when it comes to how you're going to pay for your spending

pledges so let's see if we can get some clarity tonight.

How are you going to pay for the extra ?8 billion for the NHS?

Andrew, when I go around the country and talk to people about what we're

going to do in government, what people want to know is,

are we actually going to have the strong economy that

enables us to pay for the NHS and pay for the public

In our manifesto we have put some examples of how we're

going to change the way money is used, on winter fuel

payments, for example, we will means test that.

I asked about the extra money for the NHS, where will the extra

Andrew, what we have done, if you look at our record,

is shown that we can put record sums of money into the National

Health Service at the same time as we are ensuring

that we are building that strong economy.

And that's what we'll do for the future.

Our economic credibility is not in doubt.

It is the Labour Party who is in the dock when it comes

No, but the ability to answer this question may be

Where will the extra 8 billion for the NHS come from?

What we have done over the last six years, six, seven years,

and what we will do in the future is ensure that we have the strong

economy, the growing economy that enables us to generate the funds

I've identified in the manifesto some specific areas where we will

change the way in which money is being used and I've just

But that's not extra money, that's moving money around.

That's what I'm saying, I've identified...

It is an extra 8 billion that is going to go

into the National Health Service but I've identified some areas

where we will be changing the way money is used.

But, crucially, what you need to be able to ensure that you can fund

the NHS is the strong and growing economy.

As I say, our economic credibility is not on the line,

it is the Labour Party that is in the dock on that.

Well, the Labour Party have given us costings and given us revenues.

Let me ask another way, is it all new money?

The Labour Party have given you costings which

There's a ?58 billion black hole in the Labour Party manifesto.

That's the equivalent of half the sum we spend

What we will do is ensure that we generate, by ensuring

we have a strong economy and growth in the economy, we generate

the funds and just look at our track record.

It's what we've done over the last few years.

There will be 8 billion more money going into

the National Health Service at the end of the parliament.

That's a real terms increase per head every year.

The manifesto pledges "the most ambitious programme of investment

and buildings and technology the NHS has ever seen."

No, that's separate, because it's the money you spend,

as I'm sure you know, Andrew, but the money you spend

on buildings and capital is separate from the money you spend

That money will be following, there's a report that was done

on the NHS, the Naylor Report, which set out what was needed

and we are backing the proposals in the Naylor Report.

That will come from a variety of sources.

It's capital money, it's separate from the 8 billion that's

going into the National Health Service.

But any of this money can only be provided if we've got the strong

economy to fund it and that's where one of the crucial differences

between what I'm proposing and what the Labour Party

is proposing comes, because what I'm setting out in my manifesto

is the ways in which we can deal with the economy in the future

and crucial to that, crucial to that is getting

That's why who is sitting around that negotiating table 11 days

That's a point you've made, Prime Minister.

I make it again because it's important and crucial

Our hospitals have just endured their worst 12

A record number of urgent operations were cancelled.

A string of targets, from emergency care to routine

care to cancer care, have been missed.

What you're promising is too little, too late.

I accept that the NHS has missed some of its targets,

but targets aren't the be all and end all.

What matters, actually, is the quality of patient care.

You mentioned accident and emergency targets.

Yes, we did see pressure on A over the winter.

What matters is not that you tick a box on a target.

What matters is that you say, what does that tell us

That is why we've already announced that we're

We're putting some extra money already into accident and emergency

and hospitals around the country, because sometimes people turn up

at A who don't need to go into hospital.

we can ensure that the patient gets the care that they need

and we see hospitals relieved from some of that pressure.

That's about ensuring that patient care is what comes first.

You've ruled out a rise in VAT,

but not national insurance or income tax.

Because I want to be clear that as a Conservative Party

in government, as we always have been, we're a party

I have every intention of reducing taxes on businesses

But I want to ensure that when we do that,

So national insurance and income tax could go up?

I'm very clear that it's our intention to reduce taxes.

But you haven't ruled out rises in these two taxes.

When people come to make their choice on June 8th,

they will see a choice between a Conservative Party that's

always been a party of lower tax, that's believed in lower tax...

Except that the tax burden is now the highest for 30 years

And under the Conservative government since 2010,

we've seen 4 million people taken out of paying income tax

altogether and a tax cut for 31 million taxpayers.

But we also believe in ensuring that we're developing

the strong economy that enables us to fund our public services.

But you tried to raise national insurance for the self-employed

in the Budget a couple of months ago.

Can you rule out that you would try that again?

We said we were taking those plans off the table.

We have asked Matthew Taylor to do a report on the new forms

of employment, and we will look at the results of that

But we've removed the proposals we put in the Budget.

We need to look at how the employment market

That's why I'm clear that I want to put in extra

Things are changing in the way people are being employed,

and we need to ensure that we recognise that

But in all of these issues, we can only do these things,

we can only make sure we're able to lower taxes

Fundamental to that, of course, is getting the Brexit deal right

and getting those negotiations right and having both a strong hand

in those negotiations, but also the strength of leadership.

That's a point you've made several times.

I want to come to the people who are just about managing.

They're not the poorest of the poor,

but they are not affluent either.

You say you're on their side, but inflation is now rising

faster than average pay, so living standards are being squeezed

and you've frozen the in work benefits

If you look at the issues around people who are...

As you say, I talked about people who were just about managing

when I came into Downing Street last year.

There are a number of ways in which I want to support those people.

On the cost of living, I want to build a strong economy

I also want to help with things like energy bills.

That's why we're going to cap rip-off energy price rises.

But in what way are you on their side?

You've taken away ?280 a year from their in work benefits

Being on their side is about a variety of actions.

These are people who want to ensure that their children

That's why we have plans to increase the number of good school places.

They do want to ensure that their NHS is being funded.

That's why we have plans to ensure that we're putting those

record amounts of money into the National Health Service.

They'd like their living standards to be rising.

I want to see higher paid jobs in this country.

Doing that is about building a stronger economy.

It's about having a vision for the future.

We've set out a draft industrial strategy,

a modern industrial strategy to really develop the economy

across all parts of the country so that we don't see prosperity

concentrated in certain areas, but prosperity across

How many pensioners will lose their winter fuel allowance?

We will means-test the winter fuel allowance,

We will ask charities and organisations

Pensioners watching tonight won't know.

The very rich will lose, that's clear.

But the vast in between, you cannot tell them tonight

whether they will get up to ?300 or not this coming winter?

What we're doing will ensure that the least well-off pensioners

will have their winter fuel payments protected.

I think it's right that we take those views of charities

and organisations working with older people and others to look

But overall in the changes we're making and the policies

we're adopting, I am going to be protecting pensioners

But you can't tell them whether they would get

We will means-test winter fuel payments.

I have also added that we will be talking to people about this,

asking their views on where this should be set, not just setting it

here in the Andrew Neil interview, but talking to charities

and organisations and consulting on it.

Wouldn't you have done that before you came up with the policy?

You have promised twice to reduce immigration

to the tens of thousands, and twice you've failed.

Why should we believe you a third time?

We have ensured that we are working to reduce immigration.

Crucially, of course, we will, when we leave the European Union,

have the opportunity and the ability to deal with the figures to bring

in rules who are coming from the European Union countries

You've always had that power with non-EU migration,

and you've never managed to get that down to the tens of thousands,

There's a real choice here on 8th June.

It's between me and my party, who believe that we should work

and Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party,

who believe you should have uncontrolled immigration.

That's the choice that will be there before people.

We will continue to work to bring net migration down

because we believe it does have an impact on people.

Net migration is higher now than it was when he came to power in 2010.

You're right, we haven't got down to the tens of thousands.

We will be able to introduce rules for people coming

from inside the European Union when we leave the European Union.

But this is an area of immigration, as I've said many times before,

where you have to be consistently working at it.

That includes looking at non-EU migration as well as EU

Doesn't this go to the heart of why people have lost

You make promises, you fail to keep them,

but you make the same promise again.

Andrew, I called an election several weeks ago.

I called an election on this whole issue of trust,

because the question that people face is, who do they trust

to take this country through the Brexit negotiations?

Who do they trust to face up to the presidents,

the prime ministers, the chancellors of Europe

Who do they trust to get the best deal for the UK?

The question for everybody on 8th June is,

who do they trust to get the deal for the UK?

The Conservatives promised to end the budget deficit by 2015.

It's now going to be 2025 at the earliest.

You promised to reduce migration to the tens of thousands.

On these two big issues, you failed to meet your promises.

Why would we trust the Tories on anything else?

As I say, the election will be about trust.

Yes, we are still the party that wants to ensure

We've brought it down by three quarters, so we have been doing that

work and we will continue to work on that in sharp contrast

to the Labour Party, that wants to increase borrowing

and with a leader who says he doesn't mind about debt and deficit.

The Budget deficit, how we spend and borrow and tax, immigration,

which was a huge issue with the Brexit campaign and so on,

on these two major issues, you have failed to keep your promises.

And on these two major issues, we are in sharp contrast

We are continuing to work to deliver what I believe ordinary people want.

Immigration was one of the issues that underpinned that Brexit vote.

That is why I come back to the point I made earlier about the election

Who do people trust to sit around a table in those Brexit negotiations

and bring home the best deal for the UK?

George Osborne says not a single senior member of your Cabinet

Look, this immigration target is one that we've had

It was developed under David Cameron's leadership in opposition.

People do support the immigration target.

They support the view of the British people.

That's what we're supporting, because the British people want

We have ruled out a lot of abuse that was taking place in the system.

But you have consistently to work at that.

We will get the ability to work at it in relation to the numbers

But it is me and my party, me and my team, that are committed

to saying we want to control migration, whereas Labour want

You said last week that Britain faces "dire consequences" if we fail

to get a good deal in the Brexit talks

If you look at what is being said around the whole question

of Brexit negotiations, you've got people in

the European Union talking about punishing the United Kingdom.

You've got some people here in the UK who are saying it

doesn't really matter what we do, we're just going to get any deal,

If we don't get a deal, what will the dire consequences be?

I've said that no deal is better than a bad deal,

because as I've just said, there are some people

here who are willing to sign up to any deal.

The reason I said what you've quoted and the reason I think this is such

a crucial part of the question that underpins this election

is that we need to get Brexit right in setting the tone for the next,

It's about all the things that we want to do in terms

of ensuring that we work with our European partners.

I don't understand why no deal can be better than a bad deal

but no deal would also mean dire consequences.

You haven't told us what the consequences would be.

We want to make sure that we get a good deal which ensures

I've explained why no deal is better than a bad deal,

because a bad deal is because there are those in Europe

And there are politicians in the United Kingdom

who are willing to sign up to anything.

I understand that, but you're now saying no deal

I'm trying to find out how dire the consequences will be.

I have every confidence that we will be able to negotiate

a good deal with the right negotiating hand, with the strength

of mandate behind us to take into those negotiations.

That's why the choice on 8th June is so important for people.

If you win on June 8th, Prime Minister, if you win,

how long will you stay Prime Minister?

Well, I'm Prime Minister until 8th June.

I hope people will feel that they can support me to be

I will definitely stay for the next Parliament.

Beyond that, Andrew, I haven't got through this election yet.

It's the most crucial in my lifetime.

It's about the future of our country and who people trust to take us

That was the Prime Minister talking to Andrew Neil in London. Here in

Rhos it is our man in Wales, Welsh Secretary Alun Cairns.

APPLAUSE Our audience tonight, a mix of

undecided voters and supporters of the main parties. Straight to our

first question which comes from Donna. Like me, you wanted to remain

in the EU so can you explain to me with consequences such as the

devalued pound, what the benefits of Brexit can be? Thank you for the

question. You have highlighted some of the turbulence that has been in

the economy since the referendum outcome where the fall in the pound

lead to inflation which means the cost of things rises. That by and

large the economy has held strong and employment has continued to fall

butter and implement -- unemployment has continued to fall and investment

has continued to rise. Your question I think is absolutely at the heart

of the challenges that we face. The Brexit negotiations are pretty

fundamental to everything and I will probably come back to this many

times in terms of questions on a whole range of issues because

growing the economy, creating jobs, attracting investment to create

better paid jobs in Wales and across the UK, even paying for public

services like health and education, hospitals and schools, really depend

on a good Brexit deal. So there could be 11 countries, sorry, 27

countries lining up to oppose off and there needs to be someone to

negotiate with those. The question we have got to ultimately ask

ourselves, who is best placed to negotiate that Brexit deal? As you

have rightly highlighted, the turbulence we saw following the

referendum, but that is nothing to do with the challenges if we get the

Brexit deal wrong. And therefore, I believe Theresa May is absolutely

the right person to get the Brexit deal and the opportunities it

provides. The second part of your question related to opportunities.

We have announced in our manifesto, for example, nine trade

commissioners who would be based around the world, looking to create

new deals, looking to create support businesses in Wales, and across the

rest of the UK. That demonstrates that we not only want a deep and

special partnership with the European Union, because we want

Europe to succeed, it is important that Europe succeeds because it is

important to our economy and our security. But we can also renew

friendships with some old allies and create new friendships around the

world as well. We are all familiar with the Commonwealth countries. The

trade that we do with some of the fastest-growing countries in the

world, some of them are Commonwealth countries and we have not built on

that historical relationship that we could have and I think that some of

the opportunity to grow our exports, to use the policies that we

announced in the manifesto earlier this week, in order to support Welsh

businesses and UK businesses be they small or large.

You know that Wales export a lot more to the EU than the rest of the

UK. A good deal for the UK might not be a good deal for Wales. How can

you guarantee a good deal for Wales? I'm glad you asked, it allows me to

put this statement right. It depends how you measure the exports from

Wales. Let me take an automotive component manufacturer in Wales. If

they make something that goes through Jaguar Land Rover, that is

made in Wolverhampton, that Jaguar Land Rover could well go to North

America. But that is not included as an international exporter outside of

the European Union from Wales. The debate is so much more complicated

than just thinking of Wales as one economy and the rest of the UK as a

different economy. This is important, ultimately, we need to

get the right Brexit deal for the whole of the UK. The Welsh economy

depends on the successful UK economy. We are so interchanged, the

relationship is so strong. Finally, I will say on this that if we look

to Deeside, the advanced manufacturing sector there is a

fantastic jewel in the Welsh and UK crown. But that depends on a

successful UK economy, rather than just a successful Welsh economy. The

gentleman with his hands up? From a manufacturing base, there are

numerous crimes that are coming from the EU. Coming out of Brexit, how

does the Conservative Government look to fill the gap? OK, we will

take a couple of points. First, I would like to thank you very much

for coming. I have heard you had numerous difficulties getting a

representative of the Tory government to come on TV debate.

Thank you very much for coming. You referred to 27 countries in

opposition, I think you mentioned, opposed, that you were in opposition

against. Is that really how you see the Brexit negotiating panning out

for Wales? A third point? The lady in the black jumper? The point about

the manufacturing, exactly the same for our farming communities. It was

stated shortly after the result, that we could not expect to get

equal funding from Westminster as we did under the EU. If you could take

those together? The second question goes back to my first answer. I said

quite carefully that there could be 27 nations lining up to oppose us.

That is how tough the negotiations could be. We have seen, from some

representatives of the European Commission, the sort of approach

that they are taking and that led to the Prime Minister standing on the

door of Downing Street, effectively stating her position in terms of

responding to that. That is how tough they could be. Clearly,

working hard since the referendum... In opposition to the UK

establishment? But I also said that I want a deep and special

partnership with the European Union. That is important to our success, as

well as to their success. We want Europe to succeed and we want them

to develop the relationship that they might argue sometimes Britain

was dragging its feet on. They can become a much deeper, integrated

partnership, and we can be content to see that. We will not be part of

it. But, ultimately, there will be tough negotiations. There could be

27 nations lining up to oppose us. On that basis, we need a strong

leader in order to be challenging. Can I just ask, on strong

leadership, strong and stable leadership, we have seen a U-turn on

this general election. There was not going to be won. We have seen a

U-turn on national insurance, that was going to go down. We have seen a

U-turn today on the cap in social care, which applies in England but

might have consequences in Wales. Is that really a strong and stable

leader going to Brexit? I think you have got to look at the

record of the Prime Minister. LAUGHTER. We talked about the

economy, people predicted it would go to sharp decline. When she became

Prime Minister, the stability that she brought, the markets reacted

immediately. The outcome we have seen since the referendum outcome,

and I will come to the question about manufacturing. There is Aston

Martin in South Wales, Toyota in Derbyshire, extremely important for

the engine part manufacturers in Wales. But Brexit hasn't happened?

Guillermo Roan Nissan, in Sunderland, there are component

industries, 100 automotive component industries based on Wales that

depends on the large investments that come. Look at the facts, the

wealth that they are creating, the jobs they are providing. That

represents the strength and leadership to attract that of

investment and the confidence it has instilled in leaders and nations

around the world. I am absolutely content. If you compare that with

the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn, that is ultimately what we have to

come down to. 11 days. 11 days after the general election would be the

first fat bear formal negotiations with the European Commission. -- the

first formal negotiations with the European Commission. Who do you want

to be sitting around that table in that discussion chamber? Do you want

Theresa May and her experience, and her background? The No! I beg to

differ. Do you want Jeremy Corbyn sitting there?

The Conservative Party only has to lose six seats out of MPs in order

to allow Jeremy Corbyn and the coalition of chaos, because he would

have to work with nationalists in Scotland, in Wales, and with the Lib

Dems, as well as with some MPs from Northern Ireland in order to strike

that coalition. That really is the threat that our economy would face

from the Brexit, from a bad Brexit deal. There is an issue with the

question... We have to move on, we have a lot of ground to cover. Our

second question comes from Adam Samuels. With record amounts of

people using food banks and austerity failing everywhere else,

why on earth would Wales vote Tory? I think there are lots of

complicated reasons why people use food banks.

There is one in my constituency, there is more than one, and they

offer a very good way of bringing people back into the state level

support. With each Russell trust, you need to have that voucher from

the GP, from the citizens advice bureau, in order to get back into,

in order to get the food bank support, and that assists part of

the state level support. I think food banks can play a part in

bringing people back into the level of support. The level of support

they should rightly expect from the state. You mentioned the Trussle

Trust, they handed out many food parcels in Wales, why is that,? The

best way out of poverty is getting a job. Well, in reality, it is. I am

proud of the record of 109,000 new jobs that have been created in the

Welsh economy since 2010. When you ally that with Universal Credit,

that means you are always better off in a job. It does not have those

cliff edges that people used to have previously, when they had to compare

the difference between housing benefit, and different kinds of

benefits. People can easily cut late how much better off they would be.

The calculation of Universal Credit has led to record low unemployment

in Wales, since records began. We have had unemployment significantly

lower than that across the whole of the UK. I think that demonstrates

the investment that we have managed to attract, the jobs we have managed

to create, in spite of the threats that we were told by some of our

political opponents. Thank you. Let's take a few points from the

audience. The lady in the back, and then the gentleman in front. The You

say the best way out of poverty is getting a job. What you are not

considering is the fact that some people are not well enough to get a

job and still are on the poverty line. People that have had benefits

cut, just because of the arbitrary assessment system, which is an

assessor, not your GP, not the expert in your health. And then they

have to go to a food back because they have decided no more money,

just like that. A person who creates jobs, a recent company that I

started three years ago in Wrexham employs 58 people. I'm very

fortunate to work on the new prison infrastructure. I find it difficult

to be able to communicate with government, and I am the creator, it

is my money, my risk. But I am held down by bureaucracy, red tape,

health and safety, employment legislation, is this going to

continue? If it does, it will stifle people like me. We are investing

abroad now. I travelled throughout the world. That needs to be

addressed. Food banks, and maybe austerity? The lady in the front? I

did raise my hand for different things. We'll Theresa May have a

passport to heart Brexit if she becomes Prime Minister?

-- We'll Theresa May have a passport to heart Brexit if she becomes Prime

Minister? This is the reality, the people using food banks are in work.

A lot of people are using food banks in work. They have not been helped

out of poverty by getting a job. They are in work. People on the

poverty line are in work and there in work benefits have been cut by

your government in the last couple of months. You have got people

sleeping in doorways. You've got people dying in hospital corridors.

You've got queues of ambulances outside casualty. Those are not the

unintended, but the undisclosed consequences of an austerity

programme imposed for seven years by your government.

Well, there are two issues here. I will come to the last issue

secondly. The first issue is when you talk about disabled people. I

think it is wrong to simply assess somebody as being disabled and then

forget about them. We do need to bring them back into the workplace

through modern technology, appropriate changes, legislative

changes, to give them stronger rights. There is more we need to do

to support disabled people, to bring them back into work. There are some

employers that are fantastic in doing that. We need to share best

practice, but we also need to legislate, where it is right, when

people are not giving respect to disabled people that they should.

The issue that was raised about poverty, well, I still stand by the

statement that the best way out of poverty is to get a job. If you let

me finish... I will take you to meet friends of mine that are using food

banks, self-employed people that cannot afford to live because of

austerity cuts imposed by your government. Come with me, I will

take you. I have a girl that lives next door to me, I will introduce

you to her. She can tell you all about what it is like to live under

this Tory government and try to make ends meet. Getting a job is

absolutely the best way out of poverty. But also, I recognise that

people need better paid jobs. The National Living Wage gave close to a

7% increase to the lowest paid over the last year. That is a positive

step. Hang on, if you let me finish. I hope you would recognise, I hope

you agree that is a positive step. The second element that I would say

is the increase in the personal tax allowance, our commitment to take it

to ?12,500, would take millions of the poorest people, the lowest

earners, out of pay -- paying tax altogether. There are the policies I

have mentioned already, but we also need to focus on training, skills,

giving support to people that might have complicated backgrounds,

sometimes mental health is an issue for some people who end up in a

difficult situation. Our commitment, in order to support some of the most

vulnerable people, I believe it is a strong package. We have had to move

on. The next question comes from Derek.

How are you planning to reduce the number of immigrants while still

attracting those with skills who are essential for the Welsh economy? I

think that is a really good question. Immigration is an issue

which absolutely needs to be tackled. We have a policy to reduce

it to tens of thousands since 2010. Clearly, that hasn't been met. There

are lots of technical and complicated reasons for that but

there is one fundamental reason I can point to, and that is because

there are two parts of the equation, if you like. One is uncontrolled.

That is because of the free movement of people that comes from the

European Union. It is difficult to achieve the tens of thousands while

at the same time we cannot control numbers which come from the European

Union. On non-EU immigration... Can I finish? No, non-EU migration which

you can control, that is not down to the tens of thousands. That is why I

said at the beginning it is a very complicated issue that needs to be

tackled at a whole range of levels, because at the same time we are

conscious of employers, we heard about people who need the skills

here. There is a balance in the economy that takes me back to an

earlier point about upscaling, to make sure we provide the skills that

our agriculture and manufacturing sector needs. There is no magic

bullet. One part of the debate is controlling our borders as a result

of exiting the European Union. We will build built to do that as a

result of the Brexit negotiations if we get that right and I'm confident

Theresa May will be able to get it down to the tens of thousands. Lots

of hands up. This lady, thank you. You have been at this for seven

years. We have people sleeping in the street. Tell me, why should I

believe that things will be any better if you carry on? Thank you.

And the gentleman in the blue? What we have seen is you have made this

promise of under 100,020 ten and 2015, you have failed on the bit you

can control like non-EU migration. If you take international students

out of that, I think it is absolutely despicable. Your policy

is to deport international students after they finish their course when

they have contributed to our society. It is despicable. Any other

points on immigration, please? We will get the microphone to you. I

have graduated 12 years ago. I have a good humanities degree. Since

2002, the problem is getting into work, there is immigration but

they're all so these agencies, all these zero-hour contracts. I worked

for nine months in the Welsh Assembly doing IT support. I worked

in the local council doing this. In the last three months I have spent

two months looking for another job. Do you know why people will take

jobs for people working from abroad? It is because they will accept lower

wages and insecure contracts. And another question -- and on those

questions? There is the drag down on public services and also the drag

down on potential wages. They would rather it was someone on a lower

level rather than upscale. We are increasing the charge an employee

would have to pay if they employ an immigrant rather than a local. That

is about upscaling people in this country in order to meet the skills.

-- up skilling. It cannot happen overnight. I have been working six

years as a cleaner because it is the most secure employment I could find.

I would like to ask about the student numbers. There are even

Welsh colleges which have bases in London and some bogus colleges in

London, more than 100 of them had to be closed because they were claiming

to be colleges and they weren't. As a result, those are the sorts of

measures we have had to pursue in order to reduce the numbers, so that

is part of the reason why we do not exclude students. On the second

issue about students, some will be leaving because they have finished

their courses as others come in so the net number for students is

broadly the same, but clearly, for all of our higher education

institutions, it is an important source of income and we want to

support students in coming here. Alun Cairns, thank you. They should

come and follow their course but they should also leave as well.

Thank you, time is flying. Our last question, thank you. Is the plan to

reopen the debate on fox hunting a throwback to old conservative ways?

The Prime Minister has said it will be a free vote so it will be up to

each individual member of Parliament how they choose to vote on that bill

when it comes. I am told it will be a one line bill. It will be a very

short time in the House of Commons and it is up to individuals to vote

for the member of Parliament, for the whole package of policies they

propose, or whatever manifesto they stand behind, at the same time

taking their views on things like animal welfare and other sorts of

things that are there. How would you vote? I would vote to repeal the ban

because it does not work as it is. Even Tony Blair who was the Prime

Minister who committed to introducing it, says he regrets it

and secondly says it doesn't work. I think there are a whole host of

things we could do that would be far more effective in achieving what we

want to achieve. A couple of points on fox hunting, very briefly,

please. My question is, with the ban on ivory trade which Theresa May is

also planning to repeal, what do you think about that? That is not on

hunting but thank you. Theresa May came up to Wrexham, I think it is

the first time she came up here, very briefly, I just wonder what was

wrong with the guy's bugle and skills this afternoon? OK!

Considering the polls say 80% of people are opposed to fox hunting,

why don't we have a referendum on it?

APPLAUSE Another one? There is another issue

I have to highlight which is so important to do with European

funding. I think that people should judge Theresa May and me on my

record in terms of funding to Wales. We complained, people complained for

decades about the amount of money and how the Barnett Formula didn't

work for Wales. So last December I signed a deal readily signed by the

Welsh Government, so Wales now gets ?120 for every ?100 which is spent

in England. As a result of that, please judge us in terms of the

support we give financially, based on what we have delivered, rather

than the rhetoric. On that point, thank you to Alun Cairns. And thank

you to the audience. We are off to bang and tomorrow night it is all

about Ukip. Join us if you can at seven o'clock. Good night. --

tomorrow night we are off to Bangor. All this week we're bringing you

a party leader double feature.