Welsh Liberal Democrats - With Bethan Rhys Roberts Ask the Leader

Who should be the next Prime Minister? This election is about

your future. So, who will get your vote on June 8th welcome to Ask The

Leader. Good evening. Welcome to Ebbw Vale.

In the last of our series, tonight we ask what the Liberal Democrats

have to offer. They have shared power the Conservatives in

Westminster. But were nearly wiped out at the last election. Is it time

for a come back? Please welcome to lead ore the party in Wales, Mark

Williams. Our audience is a mix of undecided

voters and supporters of the main parties. They have plenty of

questions. So, let's kick off with our first question tonight. Good

evening, Mr Williams. I and the majority voted to exited the

European Union. You were asking for a second referendum. Why can't you

accept the decision of the people? Well...

Well, thank you for that question. It is not the first time the

question has been asked in the last few weeks. I dare say the next

couple of weeks that question will be asked again. It is on a second

question. I voted remain on June 23rd last year, in good faith, a as

you did. I will not say for a start you didn't understand what you were

doing because you did. You were voting for exit. Where I think we're

in a problem now is the uncertainty as we move forward. It's such an

important issue. Such an important issue. We think about the impact of

leaving single market, the impact on our farming community, on the

manufacturing sector, with the support we've had in the past from

Europe will come forward again. We don't know what the terms will look

like. Yes, the country voted for departure. But the destination was

unclear. And that's why I believe that the country should have the

vote. I should say from the outset, there will be a vote because Mrs May

has conceded there'll be a vote in the House of Commons. Whether it is

me or Members of Parliament elected, when the negotiations conclude,

there'll be a vote on the terms of the negotiations. The question the

public need to reflect on is whether that should be a vote for

politicians alone or yourself? I just believe that if democracy

started the process, and the country did speak. My area didn't. Your area

did. I am very mindful. I had to walk down Ebbw Vale high street and

people were strong in their opinions, as one would expect them.

With democracy started the process and I believe it should end the

process as well. The gentleman at the back. The

destination was leave, leave all of it. So, what's the point of electing

Members of Parliament if you're going to keep giving us referendums

until you get what you want? I don't accept. That again it is a

fair point and a point that's been made repeatedly. I don't think we

can understate the enormity of the decision that is before us. 40

years, some would say 40 bad years. Others would say 40 years in which

money has come into Wales. Money we have relied on. Are we going to

allow that to go by issuing just a very clear bank cheque for Theresa

May to negotiate and conclude as she sees fit? That is what is asked of

you. This is a Brexit general election. That is why it was called.

Theresa May is asking for a blank cheque. I don't think many of you

would give people blank cheques if you didn't have some indication of

what the outcome would look like. Mark Williams n your Welsh manifesto

today and in your UK manifesto, you talk about a second referendum A

ratification. In case it wrecks the future of the children. Is that not

scaremongering. It is emotive language. I accept that. This is

about the future, the children are our future. When I talk to farmers

who are very concerned about what the payment regime will look like in

the future, when I talk to businesses and communities that have

benefitted from convergence funding, and this area, as you know, has

benefitted from funding from Europe as well, there are many, many

unanswered questions. We need the assurances that funding support, the

support for manufacturing industry, through the single market, or as the

First Minister says and I applaud him for saying it access to the

single market. We need those assurances. There are worries. This

is why we need clear opposition in the House of Commons. Not to

obstruct Brexit, but to ask constructive questions about our

future. Let's take a few points. The lady at the back. Money has been

used so far, given that the schools, there is one being built elsewhere,

however we haven't the jobs in the area for people leaving these

schools to benefit from. And the two train stations in Ebbw Vale, they

are taking people out to look for employment in the cities. However,

we need them here. With regards to Brexit and you mention farming, I

live on the border. Much of my shopping is done in Herefordshire. I

cannot find Welsh lamb in the supermarkets in England. So, why are

we worrying about trying to sell to Europe when we are not doing it

within the UK? We worry about the future of the lamb market in Europe

because 93% of our lamb currently goes to that market of 500 million

people. You are quite right, there is promotion which needs to be done

in the United Kingdom. I agree with that. There is promotion. Let's not

lose sight of where the markets are that are benefiting Welsh farmers

now and they are largely European ones at the moment. That is not to

say there are not opportunities. I give that seed of doubt that we need

those markets about they are not guaranteed. That causes huge worry.

The question the lady made. It was a valid point about jobs. When I talk

to people in Ebbw Vale a few months ago when I was here, people were not

acknowledging that money had not come, but were concerned about how

local people didn't input into the way that that money was spent.

Moving forward, if the Conservative Party, if the Conservative Party are

going to give us the equivalent of monies that we've had from Europe,

we need the assurances that local people are fully and appropriately

consulted in the way that money is spent. That is a big issue in this

community. You talk about the money the EU have

given us. It is our money to begin with. It is our money they have

given us back. All I would say is that Wales, the figures have proved

it has been a net beneficialry over and above the money we have

contributed. The money we've had, years we live in, have benefitted

more than the money we have sent. More money has come into our

economy. Still a small proportion of public spending though. The lady at

the back. Alongside the Brexit negotiation should we take the

opportunity to educate ourselves and understand better the impact that

leaving the EU will have on trade? We talk about jobs, we may not

direct I will be trading ourselves, but actually to understand the true

value trade has on the economy in the UK and specifically on Wales, so

we understand what Brexit means to us? It is the route issue. We a

trading nation. We have to trade. That argument is well placed. I hear

a lot. Let's get to the nub of the issue. We can talk as politicians do

about the jargon, this, at the end of the day, is about people's jobs

and livelihoods. If we, if the negotiations are concluded, when Mrs

May wanted them to, the divorce proceedings and the trade

negotiations running together, within two years, maybe, all the

worries are not valid. That will not happen. The negotiations are not

going to be concluded within two years. Partly because we are having

a general election now. The trade will not follow on. Therefore, Welsh

products will be subjected to World Trade Organisation tariffs, with

possibly dire implications for 43% on agricultural products. That is a

real and genuine concern. You worry about the timetable but a second

referendum would make it even longer. There'll be a vote in the

House of Commons. I go back to my original point. If it is good enough

for politicians to have a vote on the terms whenever they are

concluded, I think as we proceed there may be more of an appetite for

the general public to look at these issues than currently perhaps the

polls are suggesting. Two points. Will you have a referendum until you

get the right answer? Can I say, no, I lead the Welsh Liberal Democrats.

I give that assurance. About half a billion pounds has been spent in

Blaenau Gwent. We have not benefitted from jobs.

Why is that money wasted in Blaenau Gwent? The message loud and clear

from the audience. On to our third question. Time is flying. And from

David Simpson. When will politicians venture beyond political correctness

and tackle the critical problem of Islamic Jihadist terrorism? Well,

it's a very profound question in a very profound week indeed. I think

we were all, every one of us here, all viewers were horrified by what

we saw in Manchester. As a politician, who was in the House of

Commons on the day the House of Commons was attacked and a brave

police officer lost his life and pedestrians on Westminster Bridge,

the emotions are very raw for many of us. And I think, I don't know, I

will use the term political correctness, but what I am saying is

we need to address the issues full on. I am not sure the stuff we've

had today in the papers about extra police officers is necessarily the

answer. Though that is an important bit of it. When you hear statistics

like, for instance at MI5 are looking at 5,000 individuals around

the country. When they foiled, I think six or seven terrorist attacks

since the London attack, you know that this issue is very real and

very live. And I believe that it has to come from a community-based

approach. The Government have a prevent scheme, which is designed to

alert the security forces to activity which could lead to

terrorism. I believe that we need to have a more robust community-based

approach of identifying potential terrorists and dealing with them.

Just on the police, you mention there, are you saying you don't want

extra police? No. No. I don't think that is the whole solution. It is

easy to say recruit more police officers. My party's committed to an

extra 276 million on more police officers. In Wales, ?7. 57 million.

That is very important. Very valid. There is certainly a case for giving

more resources to MI5 to tackle the 3,000 individuals that they are

working on at the moment. It is a worrying figure.

And you know... The most frightening thing of all, I could walk around my

area. You could walk around yours. We don't know - that is the worrying

thing. When the way in which people have been, what's the word,

fundamentalised. Radicalised, we don't know. I am afraid that's why

MI5 need extra resources as do our security sources. 3500 they do know

that are under some sort of surveillance, 3500, when are one of

the political parties going to see past political correctness and get

on with the job of actually dealing with this? That was the question. It

will not be yourself. I don't disagree with what you are saying. I

want the security forces to do what you say. We need the resources. It

is very chilling indeed when we have heard that the young coward that did

what he did in Manchester was already known to MI5 and somehow

escaped the... Why do we always have to wait, when that person who is

known to the security people? Why do we always have to wait? My thoughts

are, I have just sent a message to our local MP asking him, put

pressure on the UK Government, because if we know these people are

in this country, then surely there must be some kind of law that they

would be able to actually detain them if they. If they are not

British citizens I believe they should be deported. If they are

British it is Seines they should go to Her Majesty's pleasure. They

should not be walking our streets. This is not an issue unique to

people overseas. People are radicalised within the country and

that needs to be dealt with. You said extra money for the

intelligence services. Yet when it came to the investigatetory powers

bill which some called the snoopers charter, perhaps many of your party

supporters did, you voted against it. Let's be mindful of the fact

that the civil Lib aerts these people are out to destroy, by their

actions, by the thuggery, the terrorism and the murder, we need to

be mindful of the need to protect civil liberties because if they are

destroyed or removed, that allows themes to win, that's why it was

wholly appropriate to have three days in effect of mourning and

solidarity with our brothers and sisters in Manchester, but the

democratic process has to carry on. Otherwise they will win. Let's take

a point from the back there. Thank you. Although I agree that in the

short-term obviously it's important to monitor the people that are seen

to be radicalised and arrest them if needs be, surely we should be

thinking long-term, how do these people get radicalised in the first

place? People always talk about immigration but I think the main

problem is the integration. These people feel they're not part of

British society, they feel because they're Muslim they're seen as

different to most people in Britain. The main solution to this long-term,

rather than locking everyone away who has a radical opinion as to why

do they get radicalised and how can we integrate them more into British

society? APPLAUSE

I think you are right, let's be clear, when we are talking about the

3500 people we are talking about those extremely divisive damaging

individuals imaginable. I agree with you, and that's why I go back to

what I said at the start about a strong community-based approach.

That is essential too. The idea that we can tar Muslims p per se with

what has happened is a disgrace. Others in other political parties

have allowed that and that must not be allowed to be perpetuated.

APPLAUSE Thank you very much. We move on to

the next question from Martin. Welcome to Ebbw Vale. Thank you. As

a wheelchair user I don't trust the Conservatives with their welfare

cuts. You went into power with the Conservatives, why should I trust

you now? Well, can I just say the circumstances are different, perhaps

a politician would say that, wouldn't he? Seven years on from

going into the coalition with the Tory Party, some of us bear the

scars of that particular episode in my party's history. My leader

incidentally has been very clear that will not happen again and I

will reiterate tonight, no coalition with Jeremy Corbyn, no coalition

with Theresa May. There were aspects of the coalition Government which

quite frankly were deplorable, there were successes but there were others

- I cite one thing, the bedroom tax, something that I voted against in

the House of Commons and I am very glad that, been a catch-up perhaps

now with my party, the party would scrap it because it was a damaging

ill-conceived policy and would never work because we haven't got the

housing stock to move people. There are reform that is we need to push

forward, not least the work capability assessment which many

people are subjected to, doesn't work, is damaging, is cruel, and it

needs to be replaced. Many of the cuts that the Tory Party, many of

the cuts the Tory Party on things like universe credit, ESA,

system-21-year-olds in housing benefit, need to be reversed and my

party is committed to reverse them. You touch on something else, and

it's called trust. And I am new to this job, the leader of my party,

the Welsh political party, the Welsh Liberal Democrats, and that's your

call. You just have to make that judgment. But what I can assure sup

that the notion of my party going into coalition with the Tory Party

will not happen again on my watch. What about... Coalition witness We

have one member of the nab Assembly, the First Minister I think made a

wise choice in... But that's a coalition, isn't it. You are in bed

with Labour in Cardiff Bay, aren't you? I think that expression in bed

with is such a crude expression in terms of political relationships.

The First Minister made a choice of a person, my party reinforced that.

This is a Westminster election. This is a Westminster election on June

8th when there has been all sorts of nonsense talked about, coalitions of

chaos, Liberals marching around with Nicola Sturgeon and Leanne Wood and

Jeremy Corbyn, that's not going to happen. An old Tory line that had

some effect at the last general election, we are not having a

coalition, my party needs to have an election whatever you think of it,

fought on its own principles, its own convictions. OK. We will see

what happens as a consequence. Are you convinced? No, not really. I can

remember when you said about the tuition fees, you know and then what

you did to students was disgusting, getting into bed with the Tories,

that was disgusting. Would you honestly prefer Theresa May as Prime

Minister than having a coalition with Jeremy Corbyn? Would you rather

see the Conservatives in? APPLAUSE

I am not having a coalition with anybody. You would rather see the

Tories? We will fight our own principles and convictions... You

would rather see a Tory Government continue to do... I have spent my

political life fighting the Tories and being part of a coalition with

the Tory Party was a horrible experience. What about the question?

On the issue of tuition fees? No, the question on would you rather a

Conservative Government than a coalition with Jeremy Corbyn? I have

always identified myself on the progressive left of British

politics. Therefore, you can take it, any way you want... Would you

prefer a Tory Government or a coalition with Labour Government? I

want a Liberal one, might seem far off, I want a Liberal one.

APPLAUSE Can I just say on the issue of

tuition fees, you are right to raise that issue and I have to say the

issue of trust, Liberal Democrats got a lot it answer for on the issue

of trust because of what happened. I and... They wanted a Liberal

Government. Let me answer this point first. Two Liberal Democrats

colleagues from Wales voted against the Government on tuition fees. And

I disagreed with the policy, I disagreed with it fundamentally,

it's why I voted against it. Is there anything you did agree with

the Conservative Party? Well, it's interesting, interesting things, now

you see the Tory Party are trying to jettison thing. We issued the

raising of tax thresholds, the Tories now claim it as their own.

The Tories now want to damage the triple lock on pensions. A Liberal

Democrats policy, they want to reduce it to a double lock, whatever

that means. You did have some things in common. OK. Let's go to our final

question tonight. It comes from Donna.

Why do you think people can afford to pay more income tax? I have to

say that no one in this room, no one in this room will not be touched

with the social care issue facing this country. There is a demographic

timebomb in our country and I am afraid politicians of all parties,

even some of mine, have failed to address the social care crisis that

is hitting this country. They've also failed to address the issue of

MEP tal health and the way mental health services are the Cinderella

service in the health service. That's why my party has said there

should be a tax specifically for one purpose, the one penny on income tax

to fund the National Health Service, raise ?6 billion in one year of

which ?300 million would come to the Assembly. I am not going to dictate

what car win and his colleagues and others spend it on, but ?300 million

extra for the National Assembly and I hope they will, I hope there will

be public pressure to make them spend those resources. Why do you

think we can afford to pay that money? Not what you are going to do

with that money if you raise it, how do you think we have that money? I

think it will be a huge challenge for many people. It will. I think it

is an issue so important, so important, that there is a

widespread acknowledgement that something must be done. If you are

asking me about pay, then I can tell you for a start that one pence cap,

the one penny in the pound on teachers pay on nurses pay, on the

public sector... Needs to be increased. How much would that cost,

the average wage? ?3 a week. And you would cover the whole range of

salaries, why not focus on the richer people like the Labour Party

and others are suggesting? I understand that, that is an option.

This way I think there is acknowledgement that all families

will benefit, all families will appreciate the significance of the

small amounts of money. It needs to be vast because of the problem that

needs to be solve solved. ?150 for the medium wage in Wales s that too

much to pay extra a year? The lady says yes. Why don't you target the

companies with profits offshore? There is a welter of tax loopholes

that company use that need to be tackled in that way and that could

generate extra resources to spend on the National Health Service. Instead

of impacting on the general public, the hard working people, you know. I

do understand the issue and I understand where you are coming

from. I just feel that again, I go back to the fundamental point, this

is an issue that will affect everyone of us in this room.

Therefore, we need something bold to deal with the problem. I really

think that we need to face this issue head on because it is that

serious. I have had constituents of mine unable to access any social

care at all in the area that I represented, having to travel vast

distances to get any care at all. That needs to be addressed. Mental

health services that should be available and delivered in the

communities in which people live, not 60 or 70 miles away. It is a

simple issue. Maybe it's too simplistic the way we are presenting

it, we need to tackle this, we need to raise those funds in order for us

all to benefit should we need the support. What are you going to say

to people who have gone back to work because they believe that's the best

thing for them so they can inspire their families, their children to

work, social handouts, having to use food banks more? What I am saying is

that there are measures in place to support those people, I have talked

about lifting caps on some sectors of the economy and those on benefits

need to have... That's it. The debate will continue. Thank you to

Mark Williams and to our audience here in Ebbw Vale. That's it. You

can join Huw Edwards when he will host the BBC Wales leaders debate

with all five main Welsh party leaders and an invited audience from

across Wales at 8. 8.30pm here on BBC One Wales. From all of us here,

Nos, da, good night.