Labour - With Andrew Neil and Bethan Rhys Roberts Ask the Leader

In less than two weeks' time you will choose the United Kingdom's

next Prime Minister. So, who do you want to shape your future and that

of Wales and the wider world? Tonight we look at Labour. In half

an hour this audience here in bug will put their questions live to

Carwyn Jones. First Andrew Neil talks to the man who wants the keys

to Downing Street. Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn. Welcome to Ask the

Leader. Mr Corbyn, today you drew a link

between terror attacks at home Do you believe if Britain had not

followed the foreign policy it has since Tony Blair was in office,

the attack on Manchester The attack on Manchester was

shocking, appalling indefensible, The parallel I was drawing this

morning was that a number of people, ever since the interventions

in Afghanistan and Iraq have drawn attention to the links

with foreign policy, including Boris Johnson

in 2005, two former heads of MI5, and of course the Foreign

Affairs Select Committee, and the point I was making was,

we have to make our streets secure. We have to make our

population secure. We also, any sensible

government, has got to look to what is happening in Libya,

a huge ungoverned space and apparently a source

of some awful extremism. But was Manchester a consequence

of our foreign policy? Manchester was a consequence of one

person going into a music event and killing a very large number

of people, there can be no So nothing to do

with foreign policy? I do not in any way

change that view. That is just a vile,

horrible event and those people have it is dead but there appears to be

a whole connection of them. I made the point that

if we are to have a secure future, we've got to look at ungoverned

spaces around the world and the consequences

of our wars of intervention. This is not just me,

as I said, this is MI5, it's Foreign Affairs Select Committee,

it's a number of other people. But I'm struggling to find the role

of foreign policy you see Islamic State was founded well

before the invasion of Iraq. It's murdering people across Europe

because it hates our values. Only last year they said this,

"Some might argue that your foreign policies are what drives our hatred

but this particular reason for hating you is secondary,

even if you were to stop bombing us, Our primary reason for hating

you will not crease to exist It's a totally perverted

form of Islam. No, it's not Islam at all,

what we have is a total The point I'm making and the point

that many others have made, not of necessarily Labour opinion,

or any other, quite a wide range of opinion across the spectrum

is that you have the consequences of our interventions in Afghanistan,

in Iraq, in Libya, leaving large numbers of ungoverned spaces,

leaving people in a desperate situation, who themselves may become

prey to that form of perversion, and I think it would be unwise

of any government to ignore that but that is exactly

what the Foreign Affairs Select But they're targeting young

girls at a pop concert because they hate our values,

they said they hate I agree, they hate those liberal

values, they hate the idea of women being able to enjoy themselves

and all the liberal values and that was the whole point

of my speech this morning. We've got to

defend our liberal values. I mean, what was the foreign

policy of Sweden? The result of even

Sweden being attacked? The foreign policy issue has

to be for all of us. What is happening in a number

of countries, where we have intervened and where there is a lack

of any coherent form of... Well, Andrew, shouldn't we look

at where the sources are coming Surely any sensible person

would want to do that. Well, you're the one that raised

foreign policy today. The Yazidi women, enslaved

and sexually assaulted and killed. The Yazidi women -

what was their foreign policy? Andrew, I am not defending any

attacks on women or anybody else. What I'm saying is that it would be

unwise of any government or anywhere in the world to ignore

the issue of instability gives a space for that kind

of perversion of Islam Barack Obama has said as much,

many others have said as much. You've called for, your phrase was,

smarter ways today, to deal with countries harbouring

terrorists but you wouldn't put boots on the ground,

you wouldn't bomb the terrorists, you wouldn't use drones to take out

the terrorist leaders Isis doesn't get its

money from nowhere. Isis doesn't get its

arms from nowhere. Isis does have a whole lot

of connections around the world, financial and others,

which I think need to be robustly Well, that's a good

start for doing it. The other one is to look

at the situation in Libya, where you have a lack of government,

where you need stronger presence of UN diplomacy in order to bring

about the start of some stronger form of government there,

otherwise you've got a problem which isn't going to go away

and that is a view that I put forward in what was intended to be

a thoughtful contribution this morning of how we deal with these

things and I think you'll find, actually, quite a lot

of public will not disagree Well, we live in an age

of terrorism, that's clear. One of the most important

responsibilities of being Prime Minister is keeping

the British people safe. Why would the British people want

as their leader, a man I didn't support the IRA,

I don't support the IRA, what I want everywhere is a peace

process, what I want everywhere We went through all the horrors

of Northern Ireland, all through the '70s and the '80s,

through the period of the Troubles. And eventually came

from that, a peace process, the Good Friday Agreement and now

relatively peace and stability and actually, Northern Ireland has

been a bit of a model It certainly helped in the peace

process in Colombia. It's a model that is

used in trying to bring communities together

in South Africa and other places. I think there's something we can

all learn from Northern Ireland. Where the two big divides,

the Nationalist tradition and the Unionist tradition,

came together on a basis of recognising a different

tradition each had. You say you didn't support

the IRA but you invited to tea in the Commons,

a few weeks after the Brighton bomb, which tried to destroy

our elected government. You stood for a minute's silence

to honour, your word, Mr Corbyn, to honour,

IRA terrorists killed Throughout the '80s and the '90s

you spoke at scores of hardline Republican gatherings which backed

the IRA and the arms struggle. I always wanted and

always do want peace. Always want a dialogue

between people of vastly And the minute's silence

you referred to was in 1987, it was for ALL who had died

in Northern Ireland. In honour of the eight IRA

terrorists who had been killed. I said ALL those that had died

in Northern Ireland. But the purpose of the meeting

was to honour these terrorists. As you went to all these hardline

Republican meetings, they were backed by the IRA

and its apologists. At any time publicly,

did you urge them to give up I always said that the bombing

process would never work. There wasn't a military solution

to be found in Northern Ireland. I made that very clear

in the House of Commons. But did you urge the IRA to stop

the bombs and the bullets or its front people that

you did meet all the time? I obviously did meet people

from Sinn Fein, as indeed I met people from other organisations

and I always made the point that there had to be a dialogue

and a peace process. Now a lot of people did

a lot of work on this, and eventually it was Mo Mowlam

as much as anybody else, who managed to bring those groups

together and she used a lot of connections

in order to bring those people together and I think we should

recognise that as... We certainly recognise Mo Mowlam,

it's your role I'm trying to find out, because the former IRA

terrorist leader, Shaun O'Callaghan, ever, at any time in promoting peace

in Northern Ireland." He said the peace you sought

was a victory for the IRA. Well, I've never had a discussion

with Shaun O'Callaghan. As far as I'm concerned,

the whole process had to be that there wasn't going to be

a military solution The Prevention of Terrorism Act that

affected a lot of my constituents was something that was actually

criminalising young Irish people mainly in Britain

but also in Northern Ireland We had the first

ceasefire, eventually... My role was supporting a process

which would bring about a dialogue The British Government

at that time was putting a broadcasting ban on Sinn Fein,

a travel ban on Sinn Fein, and a series of anti-terror

legislations which were not really doing anything to bring

about fair convictions. Remember, I was also

the constituency MP for one of the Guildford Four,

Paul Hill, who was the first person arrested under

the Prevention of Terrorism Act, But that doesn't mean you had

to speak at over 70 hardline Now you may not have heard

of or dealt with Shaun O'Callaghan but you will have heard of and met

the highly respected Sheamus Mallon. He was one of the architects

of the peace process. He was at the heart of it

along with John Hume. Sheamus Mallon says quote: "He never

heard anyone mention Corbyn at all in the peace process

but you very clearly took the side of the IRA and that was incompatible

with working with peace." He never said that

to me in Parliament. I don't doubt he said

it at some point. Happy to work with him

and John Hume and others in Parliament, and I was a member

of the Northern Ireland Committee of the PLP in which we visited

Northern Ireland and met Isn't it the truth, is it,

that you basically supported the supported the arms struggle

for a united Ireland but now you want to be Prime Minister,

you have to distance What I want is to learn the lessons

from Northern Ireland and also to make sure that during the Brexit

negotiations, we don't return to or receive any kind of hard

border between the north Well but you see we look

at your record and we can't find evidence of you urging the IRA

to put away its guns and its bombs and then

we see your Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, he said

he honoured those involved He backed the bombs

and the bullets, his words. Your Shadow Home Secretary,

Diane Abbott, said an IRA victory against the British state would be

a victory for all of us. You've surrounded yourself

with like-minded IRA supporters. John McDonnell apologised for those

remarks on Question Time. Well, he apologised

for those remarks. Andrew, the position has to be

that we want peace around the world. But in 2003, the peace

process was well underway and your Shadow Chancellor said

he honoured the IRA arms struggle. I've made it very, very clear,

that I think what has happened their lives in Northern Ireland,

it was an appalling situation. And the people killed

by Loyalist bombs as well. All deaths are appalling,

all deaths are wrong, there isn't a military solution

to a conflict and traditions There has to be a better way

and a better process of doing it. But most people watching it tonight,

they won't know that you were so close to the hardline

Republicans and to the apologists to the IRA, don't you think

they won't just be surprised, Andrew, people watching tonight,

they will want to know that they've got a government that's serious

about their security and their safety and also serious

about ensuring we look to how we deal with be

issues in the future. We mentioned Libya

a few moments ago. I think we have to look at these

issues as the immediate security, the collective security

and the longer term If I look at all the IRA

atrocities from the Harrods bomb, through to Eniskillen,

Lisbon, Omagh, not Harrods bomb, through to Eniskillen,

Lisburn, Omagh, not once is there a record

of you condemning that. And every time you voted,

56 times against giving the security forces more powers,

why would people trust Andrew, on the Antiterrorist

Legislation, that came before Parliament, I voted to ensure

there was legal oversight of our That there wasn't

executive power given. But you voted 56 times

against toughening David Davis and a number of others

voted with me on those occasions because they too were concerned

about executive powers and executive orders overriding a court process

and I think the best defence against terrorism, the best defence

against any attack on democracy is to protect the independence

of a judicial process away from the political process

and the Prevention of Terrorism Act ...Was eventually repealed,

partly because of the executive It's the military alliance that

all previous Labour and Tory governments think has kept this

nation and the West safe It was created by

a Labour government. But you've called NATO,

"a very dangerous Frankenstein of an organisation,

a danger to world peace." Two years ago you said

it should be wound up. What I've always believed is that

NATO was a product in 1948 of the awful trajectory

of the Cold War. We had the Warsaw Pact,

which was formed a little bit later I thought at this point,

when we were into a process of rapprochement across Europe,

Gorbachev and a common European home, maybe that was the time

for the organisation of Security and Corporation in Europe to take

over, sadly, that didn't happen. I think the role of NATO now has

to be to build good relations with the neighbours and insist

on democracy and human rights being part of that

agenda of good relations. But it was only three years ago that

you called it a very dangerous Frankenstein and a danger

to world peace. I want to work within Nato

to achieve stability. I want to work within Nato

to promote human rights and democracy, and under a Labour

government, that's exactly But do you think

it's a Frankenstein? I think all organisations

need to be accountable. So have you changed

your views on Nato? You could if you

answered my question. It was a product initially

of the Atlantic Charter in 1942... We know the history, Mr Corbyn,

but I'm trying to work out if you would be a committed

supporter of Nato, as every previous Prime Minister

of this country has been. I would be a committed

member of that alliance in order to promote peace,

justice, human rights and democracy. And I believe that we can make

a positive contribution on that. You're a lifelong campaigner

for unilateral nuclear disarmament. So under your leadership,

Labour's support for the renewal of the Trident deterrent is not

credible, is it? That's what the Labour conference

and Parliament have decided to do. I will also ensure that we play

a full part in the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty to bring

about multilateral nuclear But we will also have a security

review to look at the other issues that we face,

such as the cyber threat, which was obviously very serious

to our National Health Service only a week ago, as well as, of course,

the issues that have come to the front because of the tragedy

of Manchester last week. That's not what I asked

you, Mr Corbyn. Do you support the

renewal of Trident? Everybody knows I voted

against the renewal of it, because I wanted to go

in a different direction. That is the decision

that's been taken. But can you tell the British people

tonight that you support We're going ahead with

the programme, which has been agreed by Parliament and voted

on by the Labour Party. Listen, my views on nuclear

weapons are well known. I want to achieve a nuclear-free

world to multilateral disarmament and the Nuclear Non-Proliferation

Treaty. I want to bring about peace

and I also want us to focus on what I believe to be serious

threats, like cyber I understand that,

but we need a simple answer You cannot say to the British

people tonight that "I, Jeremy Corbyn, will support

the renewal of Trident". But you can't bring

yourself to say that. We are going to pursue that

and at the same time negotiate multilateral disarmament

and a nuclear-free world. Listen, do we really want to live

in a world where there's a danger So why don't you say

you're against it? I've made the point of the position

that we are adopting as a party Will the defence review

that you want to call if you become prime minister,

will that include Trident? It will include a look

at the role of nuclear weapons. It will look at the totality,

as every other government assuming office has had

a strategic defence review. There are many senior people

in our armed forces who also want us to focus as well on the issues I've

mentioned of cyber I understand that, but let's just

clarify this tonight. You cannot tell the British people

that you are in favour of the renewal of Trident,

but you do want a defence review and that will include Trident,

and you could get rid of it. It would include the role of nuclear

weapons and other issues. Listen, it's there in the programme,

what's going ahead. Unemployment is now

at a 40-year low. We're one of the fastest growing

major advanced economies. Companies flock to invest

in the United Kingdom, but you're now promising

a massive spending binge. It's to be funded by more borrowing

and huge tax rises on the very businesses and people that have

helped to create over Don't you risk our

economic recovery? 95% of the population will pay no

more tax under Labour, no more national insurance

and no higher VAT. What we have is a country

where 6 million people earn less We have a country where there

are unprecedented waiting times and waiting lists in our hospitals,

a million people denied social care and an increasing number of people

sleeping on our streets. This has to be the time that we stop

making the poorest in our society pay the price of austerity and start

investing for the future. We're proposing an investment

bank which would invest in all parts of this country,

particularly those areas that have seen precious little investment

since the end of the coal industry and in some places since the end

of the steel industry. You say 95% of the country

won't pay extra income tax, but the Institute

for Fiscal Studies, which is a pretty independent

arbitrator of these things at elections, says there is no way

that tens of billions of pounds of tax rises would affect only

a small group at the very top. They say your plans

"would not work". No, they haven't said

they will not work. They have been through the funding

of it, and I'm pleased they have. They've done the same

with the Conservatives. What they're saying is that

you would have to collect your new taxes as well as the increase

in corporation tax, obviously. You would have to be

assiduous in chasing down They've also said that our

investment would bring about a better society

and a more harmonious society. They said that you're

going for the highest ever peacetime level of taxation,

the highest ever. Well, they're not correct on that,

actually, because the level of corporation tax we're proposing

to go to would be 26%, which is actually less

than it was in 2010. But they're talking

about the overall level of taxation, which would be the highest ever

in peacetime, under I dispute that figure, but OK,

we'll have that debate with the IFS. Do we continue underfunding health,

expecting headteachers to collect Do we continue with the horrors

of unfunded social care Do we continue with a housing crisis

that affects the homeless right through to the more middle classes

whose children can't Our offer is, we will

invest for the future. Invest in the future

of our children. And part of the investing

in the future, you plan What we will do is for the public

ownership elements, that will be in exchange for bonds

for shares in it. The bond is a government bond

which would be serviced But in addition, we would

have control of it. Take the water industry,

for example, which has been a method of siphoning off profits out of this

country to offshore companies who've made a lot of money,

at the same time leaving us with expensive water,

and in some cases very bad But you would need to borrow

to buy the utilities. No, it's a swap of the shares

for a government bond. But if you're issuing bonds,

you're issuing government debt. Issuing bonds that we own,

which would be paid But you said you would cut

the water utilities' profits. That means you wouldn't

have the money to pay for the bond. Instead of profits being siphoned

off, they would remain here. National debt's already

an incredible 1.7 trillion. If you borrow to invest

on top of the 50 we do, you say you need to borrow another

25 to nationalise. You may have to borrow,

if the IFS is right, No, we will not borrow

for day-to-day spending. But you might have to,

if the IFS is right. Our national debt, which has already

soared under the current government, would soar even more under

Labour, wouldn't it? No, because we have the rule

that we would only borrow We would not borrow

for revenue expenditure. And what we'd get in return

is investment in better services. That in turn would

encourage economic growth. Listen, we have a huge

imbalance of investment. Far too much goes to London

and the south-east in Far too little goes

to the north-east, Those issues have to be addressed,

hence the National Investment Bank, which will be regionally based

across the UK. For people watching tonight

who are looking for the government to reduce immigration numbers,

Labour's not the party and you're not the leader

to deliver that, are you? We are in favour of managed

immigration when the free movement ends when we leave

the European Union. We are against people being brought

in as wholesale workforces to undermine existing working

conditions and workers. There will be managed

migration in the future, based on the economic needs

of our society. We have had Theresa May promising

in three elections to make What I'm saying is that

the immigration issue would be dealt with on the basis of necessary

family reunions and also Well, if the economy is doing well

and we train people properly, then the need to bring in skilled

workers from overseas Mr Corbyn, many voters in this

election, it will be the first time they've had a chance to look

at you as a potential You've been a backbencher

for most of your life, Should they listen to those

who know you best, your MPs? Your own backbenchers,

John Woodcock, a Labour MP, says "I will not countenance ever

voting to make Jeremy Corbyn Neil Coyle, a Labour MP,

says "The reason why lifelong Labour voters aren't backing us is Jeremy

Corbyn". Alan Johnson, former

Labour Home Secretary, says you're "useless,

incompetent and incapable". Listen, this manifesto has been

agreed by everyone in our party. This manifesto has enormous

levels of public support. This manifesto has been

campaigned for day in, People like the contents of it,

because it offers them hope. It offers our young people

an opportunity to get the education they want,

to get the skilled jobs they want and it offers hope in the sense

of community cohesion. And I invite everyone

to have a look at the policies. And they will and the policies

are there, but the people What I'm trying to say is,

should the people who don't know you listen to those who do

and follow these judgments? I would hope that people

would judge me and our party on the basis of the principles we're

putting forward in this election - an investment for our future,

a better future for younger people in our society, proper treatment

of those who need help and care and support through a social care

system, and an education system that doesn't undermine our children

with a lack of funding. Listen, I've spent my life

in politics trying to get social I relish the opportunity of doing

the same in government. Of course you do, but why should

the voters trust you when so many even of your own MPs

don't trust you? Well, you could have quite easily

got quotes from a number of people You chose not to do that, and that,

Andrew, is your choice. And it will be the choice

of the people on June 8th. That was Labour leader Jeremy Kordic

in talking to Andrew Neil. Here in Ebbw Vale it's time for the audience

to question Labour's leader in Wales. Please welcome the First

Minister, Carwyn Jones. APPLAUSE

Our audience tonight by the way is a mix of undecided voters and

supporters of the main parties. We start with our first question, which

tonight comes from Ailsa Dunn. Thank you. Noswaith dda. In the wake of

the Manchester bombing is Jeremy Corbyn right to say our foreign

policy has increased our risk of being attacked? Thanks for the

question. There will come a time for considering that, but it's not the

time this evening. We meet in the shadow of an appalling attack, where

innocent people have been murdered and we know that that's changed the

way in which the debate has taken place over the course of the last

week. These people can't be bargained with. They can't be

negotiated with. They will always try and kill people who don't agree

with what they do, and that includes other Muslims, who are not Muslim

enough for them. People say to me, why do we start the election

campaign? It has to be done sensitively but it's part of our

democracy. These people are trying to stop is leading the lives we lead

now and on election campaign is an important part of what we are doing

now. It's important to have a discussion about ideas. We can't

forget what happened in Manchester, but to allow that to interfere with

our freedom, our democracy, is to allow terrorists to win, who should

never ever do that. That debate is for another day. Now it's hugely

important the police get on with their investigations and we can make

sure the people responsible are dealt with.

APPLAUSE Are you saying then that Jeremy

Corbyn was wrong to raise this right now? Was he insensitive to do so.

You just said now is not the time. It's an issue to think of. It

doesn't make a difference now because bluntly these people, they

will haters, whatever we do. No matter what we do, if we do nothing

at all, if we don't get involved in a military conflict they will still

try and cause harm and death to us. The only way of dealing with them is

to have the right level of intelligence, to make sure as Jeremy

Corbyn said that their supply of weapons is cut off, the money supply

is cut off, to remove the means whereby they can cause such

destruction, but there's no room for negotiation with these people. They

will never accept anything other than what they want and that's

something we can never accept. Can we take viewpoint from the

gentleman in the back? The lady's question was about foreign policy

attached to it as a possible cause for what we're going through in this

country and most of Europe to do with terrorism. You say it's not the

right time. There is no such thing as not the right time, it's all the

time, its current, it's going to get worse. We should be relying on

politicians like yourself to debate this and find a resolution, a

solution to these problems. We can all condone and be sad... Not

condone, sorry, disagree, and be very sad about what happened in

Manchester but it is a wakening upside. -- sign.

I don't want to worry about it today, I worry about it tomorrow,

like gone with the win. You should be worrying about it every day of

the year and doing something about it. APPLAUSE

Many of those who died in Manchester are the same age as my kids, I want

young people to walk our streets safely. The priority today is to

make sure the police investigation continues, that those people who are

responsible tracks down and the police must get on with their

investigation. The first priority is to make sure people are safe. Of

course there has to be a debate as to how you undermine and undercut

the source and cause of terrorism, but that, I'd say, is a valid point,

it is a debate we have to have, but for today it's all about making sure

that those people who perpetuated this atrocity are dealt with, caught

and jailed. That the Chief constables to do, not you as a

politician directly. It's all of us, not as for the police, all of us in

this room and all the public watching, we all have to be

vigilant, we all have a part to play in making sure terrorism doesn't

win. We also in Manchester were members of the public did, the

fantastic response. We saw the help they gave to the emergency services.

When we pulled together, we're strong. And this week, it's time for

us to show that despite political differences, despite the fact we

have debate on different policies, at the end of the day we all believe

in freedom, democracy and right for people to go about their lives

without being with death. But your leader... Your leader Jeremy Corbyn

has put this link on the agenda today. He's the man who wants to go

to Downing Street. Do you see that link between our involvement in

foreign conflict and the terror attacks here in the UK? Or do you

not see them related? Because that is the debate. I don't think it

would have made a difference to the attack we saw this week. I don't

think it would have made a difference to those people who

wanted to go to Manchester and kill people. They are just fanatics, it's

nothing to do with what's happening elsewhere in the world, they are

just fanatics. They raise a debate to be had about how we deal with the

source of terror. Jeremy did say he condemned utterly what happened in

Manchester this week, but we have to have a debate at some point in terms

of how we get rid of the money, the weapons and the source, how do we

cut the roots of this terror? The first thing we have to do is deal

with those threatening us. On that point before we take more points,

Jeremy Corbyn made it clear he sees that as a source of the conflicts.

Did you back the war in Iraq and Afghanistan? I didn't back the war

in Iraq because they took the view not enough had been done to plan

after the war was over. We saw what happened. You can't just say if you

go into a country that suddenly it'll become stable after a few

weeks, it doesn't work that way and unfortunately that was the lesson

learned from Iraq. Let's take some hands. Carwyn Jones, I think it is

about now, because these atrocities are affecting even us, people have

lived in this country, we've been very loyal to the country. In your

own opinion, do you think the current government has got their

immigration policy wrong? Because some people have lived in this

country, but they've got their families, for example myself, I'm

from Zimbabwe, I can't bring my son to bring with me. But I've been

loyal to the Welsh government and liberty are 17 years, but my son

can't come here. Something has to be done. The French have the same issue

there. It's a question of making sure people are prevented from being

radicalised when they are in the UK. The key to this is good

intelligence, making sure... Nothing is perfect, we know that... Making

sure where there is a threat it identified early. That's the way you

try to deal with these issues. It doesn't always work, we saw that in

Manchester this week. From my perspective, what absolutely crucial

is that we recognise the vast majority of people, whatever their

background, whatever their religion, deplore what happened in Manchester.

We're talking a tiny number of people, but they represent a threat

and it has to be dealt with. Gentleman in the checked shirt. Caen

do you think Tony Blair has anything to answer for?

My argument with Tony Blair is that the war in Iraq was started in

particular without clear vision as to what would happen when it

finished. The echoes of that are still with us, let's not pretend

otherwise. Afghanistan was one issue. It was a nature walk all the

major countries saw it as an attack on each and every one of them. -- it

was a Nato war. I said at the time of the invasion of Iraq it was a

question of, let's go in there, get rid of Saddam Hussein, everything

will be fine. It doesn't work that way in a country ridden by sectarian

divisions, as Iraq was and is. It was never going to be that simple.

My argument was, it was never a question of gung ho, let's get in

there, it'll be fine, everybody will turn into Democrats overnight. It

didn't work that way. That's what Blair got wrong in my opinion. Back

to the question, do you feel you've had an answer? Yes, I think so, I

personally think one of the issues is that some of our media within a

nice people immigrating here. And talk about Muslims as being

terrorists. And I don't think that helps anybody. You don't get hate...

Hate breeds hate, really. You're absolutely wet, these people are

terrorists, pure and simple. They have a narrow and perverted view of

a religion. Every religion has done this over the years. Srebrenica.

Muslims massacred by people calling themselves Christian. Northern

Ireland, both sides call themselves Christian. Fanaticism doesn't rest

with one religion. It in everybody's interest to make sure fanaticism is

dealt with and lives are saved. It's time for a second question. Which

tonight comes from Gareth. I haven't heard strong support from any Welsh

Labour for Jeremy Corbyn, will you publicly back in 100% to be our next

Prime Minister? Yes. -- back him. APPLAUSE

I hope that's a direct answer. That is a direct answer. On this stage

last year you said it was early days, you have doubts about Jeremy

Corbyn, what has changed your mind? It's a question of, what is the best

future for this country? Do we have more years of Tory cuts, seven years

of that, what difference does it make to people's lives? Things have

got worse and worse. Or do we base it on hope? That's the difference,

do we have some vision for our country or do we carry on seeing the

cuts we seen so far and much worse to come, I promise you. During your

launch, the Labour manifesto, 45 minute lunch, you didn't mention

your leader, so there is a feeling perhaps within the party you're not

100% behind him or haven't been. I think I just confirmed that.

Everybody convinced? When the assembly was set up, it was

said the Welsh assembly would protect us from cuts. And from

Westminster. Where has the protection been? Health spending is

higher per head than England, education spending is higher than

England, we've been able to put new buildings in place, we're in one,

this is Welsh government funded. New schools being built across Wales, no

schools being built in England. There is a limit to what we can do,

we've got a 10% cut in our budget. We could do a lot more for the

people of Wales if we had more money, that's obvious. We've done

what we can to protect the people of Wales against those cuts, even as

our own budget has been cut by so much. I remind Mr Jones, what are

you saying about that, Labour control the Welsh assembly, that has

driven Wales into this position. You've had decades now of actually

running without Westminster, with your own devolved policies, in

Wales, and you say about you've pumped money into education, into

health service... We aren't a leading in the health service, we

aren't leading in education. What have you actually done, but what

you're going to do. These are devolved issues and we are focusing

on the general election. I'll answer it in this way... There are things

we can do but the money comes from London. There is a limit on what we

can do according to the budget we get. When your budget is cut by 10%

you can't do all the things you would want to. Despite that we've

had our best GCSE results ever, we would be standing in a car park now

if it wasn't... I pay for my ticket to watch the rugby and I think you

should pay for your own ticket to watch the rugby, not spend ?10,000

of public money... Public services... Excuse me, sir, the

question was about Mr Corbyn, if we can get back to Mr Corbyn. Anybody

here who is maybe a Labour supporter who is in favour, not in favour.

Gentleman in the front. I went to huge Jeremy Corbyn and rejoined the

Labour Party on the basis of the social as I was hearing. Sturridge I

went to hear Jeremy Corbyn. My concern is we might not be able to

get that socialism through Jeremy Corbyn without the full support of

the Labour Party, let alone Labour voters in this country and this

area. We can't see a Labour government elected without the

support of voters. I want to see a government that wants to invest in

people, give the young people a future, looks after old people. That

looks at the future with hope and vision. We haven't had that for

seven years. We need to change in order to make sure the cuts of the

last seven years don't get worse. Believe me, we ain't seen nothing

yet if the Tories get back in. Many in the Labour Party think there has

been treachery in terms of the parliamentary party specifically.

Was Owen Smith for example right to challenge him for the leadership?

It's a Democratic party, there was a challenge, the result was clear,

what you see is a party united going into an election campaign.

Inevitably... I watched the Tories, if you want to see divisions, there

are divisions in the Tories believe me. What's important is that the

party is able to deliver together for the people, even though there

may be divisions, different positions within the party, it in

the nature of politics, not everyone agrees on everything. What's

important is that those arguments don't get in the way of delivering

for people. First Minister, I've been a Labour supporter since I was

16. I became a member officially last year. I'm backing Jeremy Corbyn

but my problem is, for now, he's too far left. I think we need to be

centre-left, because we're going back in time to a Labour, we need to

be looking forward, looking forward to the future. At the minute this

country isn't so confident in Jeremy Corbyn as we were 20 years ago if he

were this far left. It's important to appeal to as many as possible, I

think the manifesto produced can do that. Lots of people have said, we

agree with the manifesto, it's good stuff. That's what we stand on. It's

hugely important in politics never to make promises that you know you

can't keep, or you're just doing it to get votes. It's a trap for

politicians, 2011 the assembly elections we make promises and kept

them. We've done the same for 2016. That's what its politics are bad

name, when politicians fall into the temptation of making promises them

finding they can't keep them. Time for the third question. It comes

from Stephen Jenkins. Thank you. In my view austerity hasn't worked,

isn't it time to tax the wealthy and the big corporations more so we can

spend more? I'm with you, Stephen, if you look at other countries, is a

Scandinavian, tax rates are higher but they are more prosperous than we

are. To suggest a low tax economy is more prosperous doesn't work. The

job of government is to make life more fair. We know life has got more

unfair for people over the years. I've heard people saying, I remember

my father was in the colliery, it was a tough job, but it was well

paid, pension at the end of it, it was secure. I come on the other

hand, people say, I have two jobs, no pension, no security, something

has gone wrong. That's exactly what we should be addressing. We

shouldn't say, it's OK for somebody who has a job, we shouldn't say,

what is the quality and security of that job? What does it pay? That's

what we've got to get back to. Austerity, austerity equals Tory

cuts, that's what it is at the end of the day. As it got us to a

position where Wales and Britain are more fair? No. Has it got us to a

position where those are the broadest shoulders carrying the

greatest burden? No. The tax cut came for the richest. Now I have

people coming to see me in my surgeries who are working. Because

they've lost their tax credits, they are struggling. They are going to

food banks. We used to say to people, the way out of poverty is to

get a job. It doesn't exist any more. Too many people are working on

wages that don't raise them out of poverty. It has to change.

Prosecutions on the minimum wage, not enough of them. Better jobs

closer to home is exactly what we stand for as a party. You say you

back Mr Corbyn. He wants corporation tax to go to 26%. The IFF says his

tax burden would be the largest in peace time. You back that, then?

Those with the broadest shoulders should pay more. Those companies not

paying their fair share of tax at the moment should do so, they should

do so. Why should... APPLAUSE Why should everybody here this

evening, everyone watching here this evening, pay their tax, when a big

company gets away with it, I think it's completely wrong, we have to

clamp down on that. If corporation tax were devolved would you put it

up to 26%? I don't believe in devolving corporation tax, I think

it creates a trade war within the UK. If it was? No, I wouldn't look

at 26%, I would look at any change, I would want to see what the

position was in Wales to see what was most appropriate for us in

Wales. Corporation tax is 26% across the UK, they got broader shoulders

than some of the companies in Wales. Jeremy Corbyn is sending out the

wrong message to potential investors? In terms of the UK I

don't see why businesses shouldn't be asked to contribute more. Let's

face it if you are an American business... You would find yourself

in a position where you have to provide health cover for your

employees. It's paid for in the UK, it's a subsidy to business in that

case. Education provides people businesses need. It is a virtuous

circle between businesses and public services.

With health being provided free for businesses in effect, is it so wrong

to ask businesses to pay a bit more in order to provide the right level

of public services that provide a healthy, educated people those

businesses want. If I can take you back, First Minister do you

mentioned about having jobs local to home, good jobs, well-paid jobs,

etc, etc. Here in Blaenau Gwent we are waiting on the outcome of 6000

jobs, while we still waiting all this

APPLAUSE -- why are we still waiting all this

time? I want to send Wales to work, end of. Last year the model that was

there was not going to work. All the risk was there for the taxpayer.

Nantes to private investors. The model is better. We want to make

sure there is a fair spread of risk between the taxpayers of Wales and

private investors and that's where we want to get to stop with the

project I would like to see succeed but we've got to make sure that the

structure is there. The last thing we want is for it to open and close

within a few years and the Welsh taxpayer picks up the debt. It's

hugely important that we've got the right spread of risk in order to

make sure the project moves forward. OK, thank you very much. Our next

question. It comes from Anita banks. Thank you, First Minister, Blaenau

Gwent has had a lot of funding but I don't think it's been used well. How

come we ensure funding is managed better post-Brexit? The funding

won't be there, post-Brexit, at the moment. We know for example if we

look at the situation at the moment, Wales gets ?650 million a year from

the EU at the moment. After 2020, there is no guarantee any of it will

come. So we look around as here, we have this building, we have the

hospital, we have the school, we have the railway station. None of

these things would have been funded in the way they were without that

money. So what we need is the UK Government to say, OK, the promise

was made that Wales wouldn't lose out on a penny of funding, we are

going to keep that promise. Do that and the funding is there. Will they

consult with us as to how that funding would be used? Because

whilst understanding the EU funding was specific projects, etc,

regeneration, I'll give you an example, regeneration, we've got

beautiful stainless steel posts on foundry bridge. They've got

wonderful coloured light switch -- coloured lights, which alternate.

What has that done? What it has it achieved for the residents or even

the whole of Blaenau Gwent? APPLAUSE

You are absolutely right. At the moment Valleys task force has been

set up. You said you are aware of it. Going around saying to people,

what has worked, what hasn't worked? In doing that we can shape the

future. European funds come with a certain set of rules that govern the

way they can be used. The opportunities posed 2020 if the

money is there for us to be more flexible. The money came here, it

was funded by it, the road we came on today, the Dragon in Ebbw Vale,

all funded with EU funding and yet this area wanted to leave, by 62%.

It's not working, this funding, and yet you said the status quo in terms

of the funding must be kept. The funding is working but it's quite

clear that people don't believe it is. That's fair enough. I'll give

you an example. Can I explain to you, sir, the fact that you may say

now what I'm going to the next is down to our local authority but

we've had so much EU funding within Blaenau Gwent. What have I got the

resident that is tangible? I'm a retired person, so I don't need a

school. I don't need a college. But at the same time I can't see

anything that is there to benefit the residents in Blaenau Gwent. All

I see is icy vegetation two and a half foot up lamp post, weeds,

fly-tipping, and nothing is done about that. We are forgotten,

totally forgotten. We are forgotten, towns ruined stock what are you

going to do about it? APPLAUSE

If we look for example at City Deal, there are opportunities there, money

will be used properly. I've been to Blaenau Gwent many times and people

feel some parts have done better than others. I know that people feel

that they are distant from where the money is being spent. It's not all

on buildings. The money goes to apprenticeships. One of the things

we find is when we look at getting investment in, particularly from

abroad, the first question they ask is have you got people with the

skills we need for us to succeed in Wales, and increasingly, the answer

is yes. Funding has to go on in the future. The general question, why do

people round here about out, I was here the day before and people were

annoyed -- people voted out. People said, I want to kick David Cameron,

people said to me what I said earlier on, they were fed up of

being a position where their jobs were badly paid and insecure. It was

someone's full, this was their opportunity to register a process.

We have to listen to do that as politicians, we can't ignore it.

It's why TVR are coming here with 150 jobs, better jobs close at home,

and the money people need in their pockets. Carwyn Jones, we are into

the last minute of the programme. Very briefly, will the structural

funds therefore, what's in place, change, if you had control of it? We

don't know posed 2020 what will be there, that's the problem. There was

a promise made we wouldn't lose a penny and from 2020, there is no

promise that there will be any funding. How would I deal with it?

I'd say, OK, what we'll do is take the funding, promise it after 2020,

which they haven't done, promise it after 2020 on the same level as it

is now. Farmers, two double ?60 million a year, they get the same

amount of money, problem solved, but there needs to be a commitment from

Whitehall. Remember this, we've gone through a list of things that have

happened in Blaenau Gwent and Ebbw Vale, what did the

Tories give you? Garden Festival and it disappeared. They closed the

Marine colliery, closed six bells in 1990, closed the steelworks. Thank

you. It's about hope, we want to give hope in the future. Thank you,

our final interview is with Mark Williams, the leader of the Welsh

Liberal Democrats, at 9:30pm on BBC One Wales tonight. Don't go too far.

Nos da, good night. APPLAUSE