Nicola Sturgeon Ask the Leader

We're putting the leaders of the SNP, the Conservatives,

Labour and the Liberal Democrats on the spot this week -

all facing questions from a live studio audience here in Glasgow.

And I try to press them for the answers.

If you'd like to join the debate on social media,

We've already heard from Willie Rennie, Kezia Dugdale

Tonight, though, it's the turn of First Minister

and Scottish National Party leader, Nicola Sturgeon.

And the first question for her comes from Sheila Farnsworth.

Thank you. Why do you want Scotland to become independent from the UK,

with which it is geographically linked only to become defendant on

the EU? I believe Scotland should be independent not because surely -- we

should be separate from the rest of the United Kingdom but we should be

on an equal footing to England, Wales and Northern Ireland, we

should be in a partnership of equals. Scotland will always be part

of the British Isles but I think we should have responsibility for the

direction of our country. In terms of the second part of your question,

it's a very good question and one I get asked often. Why do you want to

be independent and part of the EU? The fact of the matter is, when we

think about this we can see this very clearly, the European Union is

an organisation made up of independent countries, France,

Germany, Spain, Portugal, all independent countries, but they come

together to cooperate on issues in the modern world no individual

country can tackle on its own. One topical issue is climate change. No

country these days, despite what President Trump appears to think,

can tackle climate change on its own. On that and the other aspect of

the European Union as a single trading market, we have a market in

the single market that is eight times the size of our UK market. We

have many more customers to sell goods too. I think Scotland and

indeed the UK, should be part of that, cooperating on the basis of

being an independent country. Let's talk more about your approach to

Brexit in a moment. I will come back to Sheila, what is your view? I

definitely don't want Scotland to become independent however I do want

to stay in the EU. As part of the UK? Riaz. The gentleman in the back

row with the yellow tie? I can see why you would want to leave Britain,

obviously, but what exactly gives you the mandate for us to have

another referendum? We voted on it previously and we voted on Europe

last year. The question wasn't do you want Scotland to leave Britain?

Again, very good and fair questions to me. This gives me the opportunity

to set out the answer, I hope, clearly. We fought, and you will

recall this, an election to the Scottish Parliament, that was just

before the European referendum. The manifesto that for that election

said if we had a scenario, which I hoped didn't arise, where Scotland

voted to stay in the EU but the rest of the UK voted to leave on Scotland

faced being taken out against our will, I thought in those

circumstances Scotland should have a choice about its future. That

scenario arose, the SNP won that election. My position on bricks and

the choice of Scotland, I don't think we should face that choice

now, but at the end of the Brexit process, when we know what that deal

looks like, when we know what the implications are. I think Scotland

should have a choice about its future. At this election you are

proposing or resurrected the idea of some kind of compromise deal,

whether UK or Scotland would be allowed to stay in the single

market. In those circumstances you say you would accept Brexit, why

have you resurrected that? It comes back to Sheila's point. I am very

aware of the fact there are many people in Scotland who don't want

independence but who don't want to leave the European Union either. I

am also very aware of the fact the UK is made up of four nations, two

voted to stay in and two to leave. In the aftermath of the EU

referendum I thought it was important to try and find some

compromise ground. The Scottish Government published a paper in

December last year that said, OK, we accept reluctantly that we are

leaving the EU but let's find a way of trying to stay in the single

market. Believing the single market for Scotland will put tens of

thousands of jobs on the line. That proposal was rejected by

the UK Government and at that point you said that was why we had to have

another independence referendum. Why resurrect the idea? Theresa May

called an election, she refused to countenance those proposals will

give them Sirius consideration. -- serious consideration. She called an

election, which gives me the opportunity to say to Sheila and

others, you don't support the referendum but back the SNP to

strengthen our hand, to try and get Scotland's voice heard in these

negotiations. If Theresa May was still Prime Minister after this

election, let's imagine she has a change of mind it goes down the the

route of keeping Scotland in the single market. Would you take

independence referendum of table then? I think at the end of this

process Scotland should have a choice. My job in trying to persuade

people in Scotland to vote for independence I guess would be more

difficult if we'd found a compromise that kept Scotland in the single

market. Would you take it off the table? You said if she went down

this route with you you would park independence? I would say this to

people even to those who would vote against independence, at the end of

this process, because none of us know what the outcome of the Brexit

process will be. We heard Theresa May earlier this week talk about how

disastrous it would be for jobs and public finances if it goes wrong. If

I was to say... Scotland should get a choice, that would be me deciding

single-handedly what Scotland's future should be. If Theresa May

agreed to your compromise... She might think if she came up with a

compromise that kept Scotland in a single market she would have more on

saying to people in Scotland saying, you shouldn't support independence.

I think we should have a choice. I've always wanted to try and find

that compromise ground. Sheila is a good example of this. There are many

people out there who don't agree with me on independence, but do

agree with me on the European Union. I'm conscious of the fact although I

support independence, I'm First Minister of the country and have a

duty to try and find ground that brings as many people together as

possible. Let me bring in some voices from the audience, the lady

from the front row and then at the back in the striped shirt. You are

talking about bringing Scotland together as a country and wanting to

have another independence referendum. What I don't understand,

for ten years the SNP has been in power but we still have in 2017,

poverty and parts of Glasgow. My dad was in Easterhouse when he was

younger, there is still poverty there. We have a high deficit rate.

We have lack of funding for NHS services, for Charity services, for

policing, for the education system. It is an absolute abomination. There

are people leaving school now who are illiterate. And you are saying,

you come across as if independence will fix all that. Why can't after

the ten years you fix this problem now and then look to independence?

APPLAUSE The gentleman in the back row? The

negativity that surrounds Brexit is all over the place but somehow, if

Brexit ended up with a good outcome for Scotland, would you take it off

the table, independence? It is often said to me, we had the independence

referendum in 2014, why are you bringing this board so soon? The

truth is, without Brexit we wouldn't be sitting here talking about this

so soon after the last one. Don't get me wrong, I hope Brexit is not a

disaster. I don't want to leave the EU, but now that the UK as a whole

has voted for that, I really hope a deal is struck that isn't

disastrous. But I can't suspend my critical faculties. I think there is

a real risk that the outcome of this will be very difficult for us. And

in answer to the other question? I don't sit here and say to you

independence is a magic solution to everything. Nor do I say supporting

independence lets me and my government of the hook in terms of

the issues you raise. We have challenges in Scotland, like every

other country. But just to take a couple of the points he made, take

policing for example, that's been very topical with the tragic events

of the last couple of weeks. In Scotland we've not had reductions in

front line police officers. In England we've seen 20,000 police

officers... They are looking ahead to the changing nature of crime,

with cybercrime, but we've maintained police numbers.

Education, I've been very frank we have challenges in education. We

will move onto that in a little while. We have spoken about the

constitution and Brexit a follow-up question from Ali Selleck. Another

referendum, what would happen if the next UK Prime Minister says no,

regardless of the outcome of the general election? How would you

ensure that the voice of the Scottish Parliament prevails? The

timescale, let's remind people, you propose the autumn of next year

through to the spring of 2019. The reason for that particular timescale

is that is when right now the Prime Minister is saying the Brexit

process will end. She says, lots of people are sceptical about this, but

she says the deal, not just about the divorce from the EU but the

future relationship, will be clear before the UK believes in the spring

of 2019. You have been suggesting you might need to be more flexible,

be prepared to wait? I can't remember if you are there the day I

set out the timescale, I said that then. It's not an arbitrary date in

the calida, the point of principle for me is the end of the process.

When is that? I cannot answer that just now because I'm not in charge

of the Brexit process. The Conservatives might say it is years

down the line. Sorry, I misunderstood. When the terms of the

deal unknown and people can look at the Brexit Dior and understand what

it means that the country. The whole thing needs to play out? Ruth

Davidson said something like 35 years' time something. Informed

choice is important. I'm not saying now or before people have that

choice. When is the absolute latest you are prepared to accept as the

timescale? When people know the terms of the deal. Is that any later

than the spring of 2019? If that was going to be later than then, as I

think I said on the day, we would have two factor that in. That is the

point of principle, at the end of the process when people can see the

terms of what they would be voting on. What if the UK Government keeps

saying no? This is not really up to you, if they say no, that's it? This

comes down to a point of democratic principle, as well. I'm very aware

that lots of people passionately oppose independence. I respect that,

although I disagree with it. Many other people passionately support

independence. Surely one point of agreement, again trying to find the

common ground, is that whatever Scotland's future turns out to be,

it should be decided here in Scotland by the Scottish people, not

dictated by a Westminster Prime Minister, whoever that Prime

Minister happens to be. If the stand-off continues, you are going

to tell us your next move in a statement to parliament after the

Easter break. What has happened to that? Then Theresa May called an

election and I have been rather preoccupied. Isn't it up to you to

share to people what you would do? Isn't it important to let people

have their say? Theresa May says no. I'm not saying now. When you listen

carefully to what Theresa May and I are saying, actually there's not a

huge difference. She is saying not now and I'm saying not now but when

the processes there. People are entitled to know what you would do?

I would reflect on the result of the election. Let people have their say.

We have an election in less than a week's time. Mike Jeremy Corbyn do a

deal with you? Despite the narrowing of the polls on the polls are

narrowing south of the border, I still feel the chances are Theresa

May and the Tories will win this election. I don't like that prospect

that I think it is the case. What we now have the prospect of in

Scotland, I think, is keeping the Tories in check. Whether or not she

increases her majority could be down to the outcome in Scotland. If they

don't want a bigger majority, we shouldn't vote Tory. That leads me

to my next question is omitted from home by Elshan Abraham Fatahiany.

Why does the SNP claim it will stand up for Scotland at Westminster but

they won't stand up for education in Holyrood with falling literacy and

numerous see rates? We will come to the education part of that in a

moment. In terms of your role at Westminster, even if you had all 59

seats in Scotland, what can you actually achieved? You are not

aspiring to be in government? No, but even the SNP's harshest critic

would probably concede over the last Edwin Maka years we have not been

the official opposition in the House of Commons but the effective

opposition. It's been Angus Robertson week after week after week

who has hinted that Prime Minister down at PMQs and SNP MPs taking up a

whole range of issues from the break clause to child pack credit policy,

fighting the case for Waspy women. Picking up on the national insurance

increasing Chancellor's budget which forced a U-turn on that policy. I

understand Theresa May U-turns on that because... She U-turns on most

things as far as I can see. These issues you have raised and I don't

deny that, but you stand at this election on an anti-austerity

ticket. You said two years ago to try and austerity. How that to? You

are getting quite close here, I know you are only putting questions to

me, but if we accept Scotland, Kenny difference at Westminster, that

raises some pretty fundamental questions. But you don't accept

that. I think we can make a difference, I think we have made a

difference. If you have Conservative MPs from Scotland, they will be

rubber stamps for wants to do. SNP MPs will stand up for Scotland and

Fife Scotland's corner. I'm trying to get what you can achieve. Two

years ago there was something else you are keen on, let's take a look.

We will seek agreement that the Scottish parliament should move to

full financial responsibility, and as part of a phase transition we

will prioritise early devolution of powers over employment policy,

including the minimum wage, welfare, business taxes, national insurance

and equality policy. The powers we need here in Scotland to create

jobs, grow revenues and lift our people out of poverty. You haven't

mentioned any of that? We are currently in the process of setting

up the Scottish Stosur security. Those were powers promised after the

election in 2014. What have you done? To seek that package of

powers? We regularly press for powers. The compromised proposals

around Brexit put forward a whole range of powers, including

immigration and many things we think should be devolved. Further

devolution would make it more possible for Scotland to protect its

interests in the Brexit scenario. We would take a couple of points are

members of the audience. The lady at the back? First Minister, you talk

about the devolution of benefits, so some of the benefits include DVLA

and PIP. My husband and I went through a horrific process last year

transferring to that benefit, we didn't lose out, we were lucky but

other families are losing out. The longer you delay taking on the

competence of these powers, the more families are moving out. People are

you losing finances and income and Motability cars. My question to you

is how long are you going to delay this, and how do we make sure the

families who have lost out are supported better than they are just

now? Firstly, we are not delaying delivering this. We are going to

take on responsibility for making more payments to individuals in

Scotland in one week than the Scottish Government is currently

responsible for making in an entire year. Payments to about 4 million

people, when you take all the different benefits involved. We have

to be sure we can make those payments reliably so people who rely

on these benefits get the money they are entitled to. We are creating

right now what will become the biggest public sector agency that's

ever been created in Scotland since the Scottish parliament was

established. I would love to say we can do

that overnight but we can't. We have to make sure it is done properly. It

won't be like the foreign payments IT system? The reason we need to

take time to do it properly so that we can make sure there is no

question at all people get the payments they are entitled to. Can I

finish my point? The Cabinet Secretary responsible made a

statement in Parliament this week about this. She started to lay out

the first benefits that will be paid through the new agency. Carers

allowance, increasing in the rate of job seekers allowance is the first

thing we will do. The new early years benefit to help tackle child

poverty. The end of this Parliamentary period? It would

always be an implementation over the course of this Parliament. Two

further things. As you know, we are building into this agency and this

whole approach to benefits a humane system, because one of the things I

loathe about the current system, and you have direct experience of it, is

how it stigmatises people who rely on benefits and almost reads like

criminals. We want dignity at the heart of the system. Another

question. I understand how complex it is. And

who is part of the system. For me, whilst this is happening and we

still have the infrastructure, families are becoming destitute.

They will lose Carer's Allowance because they are losing PIP foot of

ultimately, what transfers to Scotland could be a lot less because

people have lost out. Families are struggling. I know that. I do need

to move on. The second part of the question we raised a short time ago

was about education and falling literacy and numerous the standards.

The question is, why? We have introduced a new curriculum, the

curriculum for excellence. The International Organisation that

looks at these things has said it is the right thing to do. We have

recognised that part of that curriculum needs a greater focus and

literacy are numeracy is one of those. You have been in power for

ten months. We have been in power for ten years. There is a lot of

improvement to the Scottish education system. There are more

young people who leave school these days with qualifications. The gap

between the richest and poorest young people has almost halved in

the ten years... In ten years, some young people have had their entire

school career under the S and P and at the end of that standards are

going backwards in numeracy and literacy. -- SNP. If you take an

international study, there are challenges in that. If you take

second-year pupils, it tests and assesses those pupils against the

standards they are meant to meet were not in second-year back in

third year. Other data shows by the time people are in third year more

than 80% of them are meeting the standards. We are making progress

and there are improvements. If you got were really good at this,

standards would be increasing year on year. In many areas of the

education that is the case. More young people leave school with good

qualifications. Why are you now embarking on a programme of what

your Education Secretary says is radical reform? We have introduced a

new curriculum which took a number of years to do. I do believe in

politics. Sometimes this is not the standard approach where you have

challenges, be honest about those challenges. We have got a programme

through our national improvement framework. Headteachers have

additional resources in their own hands to try to do more to tackle

this. Lots of hands up. Lady in the orange jacket and then Lady on the

other side. I am a teacher. I recently retired after 37 years in

teaching, teaching maths. Over the last ten years, I will tell you why

it has gone down. First of all there was a system at the beginning of

2000-2006 were class sizes for maths and English S1 and S2 were 20. It

was great. We saw an increase in results at that point. We were able

to deal with children who had individualised needs. A couple of

years later, the SNP came into power and the authority I worked with

became SNP as well. The first thing was an increase in class sizes will

be went from 20 average S1 and S2 233. The neighbouring authority

remained at 20 and they were up near the top. That is in Renfrewshire.

Next door was S share. -- S Shire. The SNP council in Renfrewshire

decreased the number of teachers. They took away our support in

classrooms, classroom assistants. We were decimated. Marks out of ten?

Two out of ten. APPLAUSE

Another point and then I will bring in Nicola Sturgeon. Over the last

ten years since you came into power, every year there has been a cut in

budgets, cuts in staffing, cuts in every service to support us in

education. Austerity has been part of that. I accept that. You cannot

expect the children to make the same level of attainment if you do not

find them. Class size is the main thing is that teachers and head

teachers are not consulted directly in was up most what has happened,

with the national improvement framework, things are happening now.

We have had ten years of this. In those ten years children have lost

opportunities. That has been a really sad business with the loss of

attainment for young people. I am sitting here listening to a former

teacher and a current head teacher. I will not sit here and argue with

your experience will I need to listen to that experience. My job is

to respond to that. You mention the equity fund. That is a very

deliberate, targeted initiative to get the resources into the hands,

not of councils, but head teachers directly. I spoke to the head

teacher in East Dunbartonshire at the weekend to Tommy he thought that

was the most trans formation of thing he thought had happened in his

time as head teacher. We should and must consult with those in the

teaching profession because you are at the front line. Absolutely, there

is nothing we will talk about tonight that I am more determined to

make tackle some of the challenges we have. On behalf of pupils and

teachers all over the country, I don't think we should say that

everything in Scottish education is dreadful because evidence does not

bear that out. Schools cannot use if found to get more teachers because

there are no teachers out there. Next you there will be 700 left

teachers. I cannot understand that because you have already accepted I

not enough teachers. We are increasing the number of students

going into teaching. There are additional places at teacher

training was that we have increased the places at teacher training

courses every year for the last six years and will continue to do that.

Teacher recruitment challenges are not unique to Scotland. They are

almost a global challenge. We are looking at other routes into

teaching so we might be able to attract perhaps retired teachers

back into the industry. I do not think you are up to that challenge.

In the Times educational supplement it was said the Government in

Scotland is prepared to let organisations like Teach First to

fast track people into the system by bypassing other routes. People would

need a teaching qualification but we are about to go out to tender for a

different route into teaching. Teach First would be able to apply for

that. Sorry for those who wanted to come in on education. The last one

from our contributor, Steven Young. With a small -- would a small tax

rise be something you would consider if the money was ring fenced and put

into the NHS? We would always consider these things. You seem

reluctant to use your tax powers. I am not reluctant to use tax powers

but you need to consider the impact. We decided not to raise the basic

rate of income tax because that hits low and middle income people. We are

going into a period where inflation is rising and there is real pressure

on the cost of living. We have put ?3 billion more into the health

service in the last few years and have plans to put in another 2

billion. We took the decision not to give a tax cut on people on the

higher rate of income tax which has happened south of the border. That

creates extra revenue because of the way the finances work. We are

investing in pub lick services. Of course we will continue to look at

these things. One of the big issues is going to be the pressure on

household incomes as inflation, partly because of the low value of

the pound which goes up. The public sector pay caps become a real issue.

We have said we will lift that cap because of that. A couple of

follow-ups on the NHS. Why are one in for GP surgeries short of a

doctor? We are increasing the number of doctors coming into medical

training and getting more into general practice. Like teaching in

Scotland is not unique in trying to get people into certain areas. We

have 12,000 more people working in the health service. That includes

all doctors, nurses and allied health professionals. We have

challenges. Some of those are not unique to Scotland but we are

determined to get on top of them. I need to draw this to a close. I

guess you need to get home and watched Theresa May and Jeremy

being here for your contributions. being here for your contributions.

it makes no difference whether you watch my show or not.

In two years' time, you will have all memory of it beaten out of you

it makes no difference whether you watch my show or not.

In two years' time, you will have all memory of it beaten out of you

by a robot foreman in an ash factory.