Business Panel Election 2017

So, good morning everybody, and really a warm welcome to you all for

coming here today. What a day it is going to be, because the politicians

on the stage will be grilled by you. These are the small business owners

from across the economy, and also they include local shops and stores,

the things we see when we walk up and down our high streets. Let me

just introduce you to our panel. First of all, for the Conservatives,

the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and Cabinet member vivid -- David

Gauke. APPLAUSE

Representing the Liberal Democrats today is the party's business

spokesperson, Baroness Susan Kramer. APPLAUSE

And the labour we have the Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell.

APPLAUSE In a few moments we will hear the

initial pictures from the politicians, but first of all, let's

just set the scene here today, because we want to hear briefly from

the FSB and ACS and what they want to hear from the politicians this

morning. Thank you, Maxine. It will come as

no surprise to this audience that what we will be looking for from our

speakers is their commitment to the small businesses of the UK and how

small business friendly or pro-small business they are going to be. But

there are three issues that I think we will focus on, that we want to

hear commitment from the speakers. The first is tax. A lot of small

businesses commit a lot to their businesses. They put their houses on

the line, they risk a lot of stress and heartache in trying to reach

their ambitions and their goals, and we don't want to see that dampened

or damaged by a tax hike straight after this election. The second

thing is an rates. Over the years, we have seen some real movement

towards small businesses in trying to minimise the damage that high

business rates cause. But we want to see fundamental change after the

election, and we will be listening out for changes there. And the third

thing is payments. Payments are extremely damaging to small

businesses because bigger businesses see it as an opportunity to bully

their suppliers. They are consistently poorly paid, and we see

across when comparisons are made across Europe, we are consistently

the worst performers. It is costing the average small business over

?6,000 in poor payment, and we are seeing payment terms extended that

mean that the economy is being damaged by something like 23 billion

each year by this practice. This is something that needs to be urgently

tackled. But in the end, we are a cross-party organisation, we are

fiercely neutral, and we will work with whoever is victorious on

Thursday. Thanks very much. APPLAUSE

Thank you, just add to that, the local shops you see in every

village, neighbourhood and estate up and down the country, the things

that we want the Government to-do to support these everyday

entrepreneurs, we are pleased with the commitment on business rates, we

are moving towards recognition and understanding that we need a better

and fairer business rate system. We need to see specifics on that. I

want to hear about how the next Government will help businesses to

deal with rising unemployment costs. I want to know what the next

Government will do to reduce the burden of administration. Voters

will give importance to these issues, they care about their

communities and the businesses serving them, so thank you for

taking part and I look forward to hear what you are saying.

APPLAUSE Thank you very much to James and

Martin. I am just going to run through a bit of housekeeping. We

have cameras and photographers, they will move around to capture the

event, so nothing is live, but these do your best to facilitate them on

that. In a moment, each of our panel members is going to talk to 60

seconds, nobody has any attention span these days, do they? 140

characters in a tweet, 60 seconds should be more than enough to tell

us everything you need to tell us, because the main point of this of

course is to get your questions to the panel. We are going to talk

around four topics today that have come with the concerns of both

organisations, it will be a bit like question Time, we will have a

question to the panellists and then open it up. I am quite ruthless, you

need to know that. If you stand up and make statement, we don't want to

hear that, we want to hear your question, not a statement, and

please don't ramble on and stick to the topic, because the more

questions we get through, the more information we will get. And just on

that, none of the panellists know what any of the questions are in

advance, so nothing has been set up, they are coming here and putting

themselves up, and considering how close we are to be election, it is

fantastic that you are here. Put your hand up, wait for the

microphone, say who you are and who you represent and your business name

if you want to, and then we will get on with that. And the thing that is

not covered, we will try to get to it at the end, we are tight for

time. We will finish at 12 o'clock on the dot. Let's just have a look

at the board first of all. We are live tweeting, please do join in.

Those people who can't be here will be able to watch the video later,

but you can tweet along so that they know what they are missing, and we

are also using the general hashtag here, -- general election hashtag,

#GE2017. We put names in a hat to see who will go first, and first up

is John McDonnell from labour. First of all, can I commend the FSB and

the association, because for those of you who are members, you know how

effective they are on lobbyists, and many of the policies all the parties

are pursuing are based upon many of their representations that have been

made. Labour's offer for small businesses is based on fairness, the

principal at the centre of our campaign. We don't think it's fair

that major corporations duck out of taxes with sweetheart deals at HMRC

while small businesses have to report four times a year. We don't

think it's fair that small businesses can go bust because a

major supplier fails to pay them properly, and we don't think it's

fair that small businesses can't get the finance they need to grow

because the Big six banks won't lend, so the next Labour government

will build an economy that works for all small businesses, not just giant

multinationals. We will end quarterly reporting and clamp-down

on late payments. We will set up a new national investment bank to make

the low-cost long time... And I'm afraid you are out of time. If I had

a bell, I would ding it, but I don't. Instead of cuts, we will

invest. Almost! That is a real challenge!

It is a challenge. Susan Kramer, the challenge is yours. You can see the

time counting down. It almost looks as if I escaped from a hospital

ward, carrying this Mike. -- microphone. The organisations

represented are ones that have frequently been at our door as they

should be, and I have assured them as I assured you that one of the

first things we have to do, because businesses and small businesses are

the absolute cornerstone of our economy, whether they are small and

need to grow organically or whether they want to be fast growers and

become the big as Mrs of the future, they need an economy that works for

them,. It is outrageous that we had a revaluation of business rates

without overhauling the Victorian system that benefits global Internet

retailers and basically puts a huge burden on small business. That

should never have happened. Many of you raised the issue of skills. We

desperately need the apprenticeship levy to fund apprenticeships in your

businesses, not go back into the pocket of Treasury, and we have to

tackle the issue of your access to a EU workforce. The payment system

absolutely critical. Why doesn't... I don't have a bell, but I do have a

glass! It is more difficult than you think. Thank you very much indeed.

APPLAUSE David.

See if you can be the others. Thank you, I will attempt to do this

without hesitation, repetition or deviation, which is not the easiest

thing for a politician on any front! I want to deal with the specifics,

but I just want to say first of all how important it is that we as

politicians engage with small businesses and their

representatives. I have the privilege of being a Minister for

seven years, and had a very good relationship with the FSB and the

ACS. We don't agree on everything, but I hope we have always listened,

and even when there is strong agreement, disagreement, there is

always a constructive relationship. We have done a lot I think for small

businesses in the last seven years, and I will talk about that later on

this morning. But what is important is that we do share the values I

think most small businesses have, that I have a successful economy we

have got to encourage entrepreneurialism, have a dynamic

economy, we have got to be in favour of creating wealth not just

redistributing it, and that is what you'll get with a conservative

Government. Well done! APPLAUSE

I think I might invest in a bell, it is quite a good thing to have. We

will go straight to our topics, and the first thing we're going to

discuss is tax unfairness. I know this is an issue that is close to

the hearts of almost everybody in the room. Our first question is from

Steve Hyland, a member of the ACS. So if you could stand up, thank you

very much. The microphone is coming. And just tell us what your question

is. Good morning, panel. Thank you for giving your time up to come and

speak to us all. One in three stores in the convenience sector have seen

their business rates increase as a result of revaluation, including my

business. What will the candidates do to make the business rate system

fairer and not penalised those who wish to invest? Thank you. John

McDonnell first of all. diversifies we published our

proposals and we consulted the FSB. We said we will introduce statutory

reevaluation to stop unimaginable heights on a regular basis, and we

will guarantee a fair and transparent process. We will bring

forward indexation so businesses are not paying more because of how

inflation is measured. We want to exclude machine -- machinery from

investment. -- from business rates. We want to create a fair business

taxation system. We have set aside a compensation arrangement as well. If

you recall, we put forward ?150 million for three years, then 350

million a year until 2020 on the indexation costing, so that that

way, we can ease the pressures and I regret there has been a delay with

so compensation package that the other meant promised and hasn't been

implemented yet, but we will be able to ease the pressure on existing

businesses. In that way, businesses will not face ever again these major

hikes that has worried so many people. We were very frustrated in

the coalition years, Dani Osvaldo -- Danny Alexander setup towards the

end of the coalition, the new is rates, we saw it was going more

rate. I can the Victorian Iraq, the value of your property was probably

a decent proxy for whether or not you were a small, medium or big

business. But is long over and we have a system now that really

penalises our high-street shops versus internet, retail lowball

players, and that cannot be allowed to continue. That was truncated

after the end of the coalition, that did not continue with the in-depth

work associated with it, we Frankie should never have been where we are

today. -- we frankly should never have been here. We have a commission

in place which is headed by Vince, it has been working for nine months,

to come up with an alternate way to look at the way in which we tax

businesses that works for the 21st-century and further away mostly

-- modern business functions and doesn't go back to tinker at the

edges with the Dick Taurean system that is long out of date. -- the

Victorian system. The art challenges business rates. The do agree with

John that there is a need for more regular reevaluation. I think the

five years of the seven years we just saw does create sudden jumps.

It is difficult for those who are paying more, and there is also a

question for those who are paying less, perhaps they should have been

paying less than earlier stage. I think more regular reevaluation is a

sensible approach. There are technical challenges to get that

through, to how we deal with appeals, to prevent the vexatious

appeals and many to focus the appeals on getting to people

quickly. If you look at what we have done in terms of putting money into

reduced the pressures on business rates, we had the biggest package

announced a few years ago, including moving to the CPI, we also in the

March budget had that support package but is this rates, first of

all for those hardest hit by the degree of valuation, and secondly as

discretionary fund that local authorities can use to help

particular businesses, it could be used with helping high states. On a

more fundamental reform issue, it is right, we do need to look at those

internet retailers and find a better way of taxing them and what we have

promised in our manifesto is that we would have our review to look at

that. Did you tell people they would know the compensation package before

the elect Shannon? I don't big anyone has heard it. We are trying

to get that through as quickly as we possibly can, there is a big

compensation package, ?430 million, that is not something that has

happened before. To help those seeing significant increases. One of

the things we have done in six ended small business rates which means an

awful the small as Mrs who previously worked weighing business

rates are now longer paying his miss rates. A lot of businesses were

waiting for the relief package to come into place. The guidance has

only just come out and the local councils say we are operating in the

dark, they couldn't bring in the reef with enough because the

guidance was there, and it has caused a lot of distress to people

and we shouldn't let that happen again. Audience, what you are

hearing here, is it what you want to hear or do you want to hear

something else? Does anyone has have a question on this topic? This issue

about the difference between gift from -- online trading and

traditional trading is one we have to address. It is protest the unfair

that you have an online trader on some industrial estate making

significant rockets but at the same time, there reevaluation is

although, and that has an effect and undermined our high-street. I want

to get through all four topics. This is about creating more jobs and

better working lives, something we all want. Our first question comes

from the FSB's National Chairman. Thank you. My question to the panel

is that we have 4.8 million self-employed now in the UK, and

that is still growing. What will the panel do to support them and will

you not single them out for further tax increases? Very good question.

David, would you like to take it first? One of the things we have

seen in the last few years is a buoyant job market, a lot of growth

in jobs and a lot of that has been through stuff employment. That is

something to be welcomed, we've got very low levels of unemployed in

this country and that is great news. It is important that we have an

entrepreneurial dynamic economy and that is why we have to be careful

about clobbering business collectively with higher taxes. You

can stifle but and you can damage that job growth that we have seen

over the last few years. I suspect what you are partly alluding to is

the issue of self-employed national insurance contributions which we

popped our policy on that, we have said we need to look at the changing

jobs market. Matthew Taylor is doing a review of that. It is also about

protecting people from change in the economy, that we don't see

exportation of people in a way that is unfair, and that self-employment

isn't false, if you like. We will see what Matthew Taylor says a look

at his recommendations. We've got to strike the right balance to ensure

we encourage the self-employed, encourage entrepreneurs, protect our

tax rates, and also ensure that individuals cannot be exploited by

people describing themselves as self-employed when they are actually

employed but it is around -- a way of getting around employment issues.

We have two grids in self-employment, to -- one who are

self-employed and others like companies who see there are

advantages in struck shrink their employees into a self-employed mode

in order to cut down basically on their cost and taxes. It is very

unfair, when we're -- they are competing against employers who are

direct and honest, about their employees. That fake implement, we

have to about identifying real employment to try and capture that

group to make sure that loophole is closed firmly and quickly.

Self-employment can be very attract div and the beginning of

entrepreneurship all kinds. I think if you are self-employed can we do

take great risks, and I think that has to be reflected in the way we

tax people. That is why I am so imposed on the increase that falls

back on the individual who is all very the victim of that decision to

try and we struck a day job in a way that was just sort of shadows and

mirrors. I think it is screw shot that we support people who are

self-employed. -- I think it is screw shot will. -- crucial. I am

concerned that we are trying to cope with issues like Brexit and goodness

knows whatever else when this should have been a number one priority on

our agenda because it is coming very quickly, this complete change in the

job market driven by this change in technology and the internet and we

have to prepare people from it and we have to make sure that the

self-employed group, above all, have real access to training, skills, and

opportunities. They can to get left out when we look at all those kinds

of things, they look at people who are employed. Small is Mrs R the

engine of this economy and they are largely driven by self-employment.

I'll tell you what we don't do and what we should do, what you don't do

is increase national insurance, we have guaranteed there will be no

increase in national insurance. What you don't do, either, you don't

increase VAT, so we will make sure the 80s not increased and arrayed

the government. What you do do is make sure the unplayed -- the

employed on generally employed. We need a definition of self-employment

which squeezes out those bogus self-employed. We need to look at

the umbrella companies, some of these payroll companies that are

exploiting the workers themselves. What you also do is you make sure

the self-employed and small businesses can operate effectively.

That means tackling late payments and what we are saying is that you

can start with public procurement, make sure public bodies pay on time.

Secondly, what we have suggested is that we want the Australian type,

possibly arbitration and legal finds it necessary of arbitration is not

working, to make sure that people get paid from Chile. We want to make

sure that people have access to the funds they need. That means lifting

business rates and also having access to that finance. That is why

we are saying the national investment bank is key. Within the

mandate of those banks will be support for small businesses. In

terms of procurement, wide and we learned the lesson of what has

happened elsewhere which is that on public procurement, you include in

the rules that you ensure that small businesses get a look in when they

are bidding for contracts. That way, when you have an -- you have an over

-- an overarching weight to support the sector. I'm at journalist. It is

a question for all the panel but mainly to John, has your team

modelled the effect of employment in small with Mrs to raise the minimum

wage to ?10 an hour at all workers and David, is your team doing that

as well? -- employment in small businesses. When we introduced the

national living wage, the OBE are looks at the impact of this and

essentially, our model was that the national living wage should be 60%

of median income. At that point, if I remember correctly, the ABI said

that cost of -- for the overall economy would be 60,000 jobs in a

period of time when there was likely to be an increase of jobs to 1

million, so there would still be a very substantial net increase in

jobs, so we did the basis -- the lobbying on the basis of 60,000

jobs. We looked at those figures and have taken advice and we are looking

at ?10 an hour by 2020, that is the whole purpose of this, to lift

peoples wages, as we cannot have a sick duration where people go to

work and people have less. We will protect small businesses. We will

make sure they are represented on the living wage body that we ask

that the rate -- setting up. We will use the employment support

allowance, as has been suggested, to protect small with Mrs when needed.

We've got to ensure we lift people out of poverty and that people have

money to spend and part of that is that ?10 minimum wage.

We think the other parties have come up with a false number. We want a

commission looking permanently at this kind of vision, but with a

different mandates from that which it has now. But it is important to

say that in the long term we cannot sustain an economy where somebody

works full in a normal family and does not earn enough to be able to

live in what is considered a reasonable and decent way. During

the period of recession following the 2008 crash in a sense wages

stagnated but in-work benefits covered some of that gap. I would

say that was the right way to deal with a recession because it kept a

lot of businesses in business rather than failing and it meant people

stayed in employment rather than losing their jobs. But we have to

transition out of that no to a long-term, sustainable basis in

which the salary you earn is enough to keep you. You could say the

Conservatives tried to do some of that by raising the living wage, but

what they have done is cut the in work welfare benefits really

harshly, putting the burden of that transition on people who either

least able to cope with it. That I have found out as outrageous. The

condition should not have been handled in that way. One of the

first things they should have done with lift the pay freeze on the

public sector workers. It is held at 1% and is keeping many of those

people requiring benefits in order to survive and live, which is

unacceptable. If you had allowed that realignment to come in public

sector wages that would have lifted private sector wages as well and

brought down the Welfare Bill in that way. But we have to get back to

long-term sustainability, but how you do it and who gets her worries

me greatly because the vulnerable get hurt. We have to move on, do you

recognise what she is saying? Very briefly. The numbers we had were

worked out by Sir George Bain, a very respected figure in this area.

There is a balance that has to be struck between increasing wages

without running the risk of increasing unemployment and we think

we have struck that balance right. If you want to drive up wages

generally, you have to improve productivity and we have to be

attractive for investment. Trying to increase our corporation tax take

from 50 billion up to 80 billion will dissuade businesses from

investing in the UK and that is a big risk on jobs. That was not very

brief. John, you can be very brief. We want to ensure that large

corporations pay their way and the burden does not fall upon small

businesses in the way you tried to impose national insurance increases

on them. At the same time we need to ensure that the living wage is

there. There is a lot of work on what is a real living wage. We

cannot live in a society where the Royal College of nurses only a few

weeks ago reported that nurses are going to food banks to survive. That

cannot be right in the fifth largest economy in the world and that is

because of low pay. It is a combination of not having a real

living wage and pay cuts. Wages are 10% below those in 2008 and the

period of the crash. The only really developed economy where we have got

great back again will have consequences for demand on

businesses. We have to leave theirs, we could go on all day on this. And

possibly on the next one as well. This is an issue I know is close to

all of you and it is the revitalisation of the high Street.

What is it like these days when you walk down high Street and you see a

lot of shops closed and a lot of charity shops open? We have a

question. Good morning, thank you for taking my question. High streets

and town centres have had a tough time in the last ten years,

notwithstanding revaluation rates and the online business practically

wiping them out. That is a slight exaggeration, but there is an

element of truth in that. The question is what will the candidates

do to encourage people to shop on their local high street in town

centres and support the businesses trading in those locations? Susan. I

lived for nearly 20 years in the United States and in that great

heart of capitalism local authorities have an enormous amount

of power to shape their high streets in ways that will work for the

general economy and vitality of their local community. It may be

sometimes limiting chain stores, it may be encouraging certain kinds of

stories to come in. Working together with town centre managers who try

and recreate areas inspired by the history, some successfully. But we

need to move back to local decision-making and rather than the

inflexibility we have today said that areas can identify what their

unique selling point is, what their local community wants, what will

bring the local community out onto the street. A key part of that is

the vitality of the independent, small store owners who responds to

that local community because they are embedded and part of it. I think

there is a huge amount we can do and if anybody doubts that, go to the

States and see what they have managed to do to take a decayed

central downtown and turn it back into something vital and vibrant

with very successful shops. We need to pick up on this international

examples. How do you do that? We have been talking about business

rates, the self-employed, how do you square that circle and what will you

do about it? There is something in what Susan is saying about

empowering local authorities in this area. So in the context of business

rates for example the discretionary summers that local authorities are

getting which they can use in terms of helping those hit by business

rates, but we should give more flexibility to local authorities

generally in terms of offering business rate discounts. Can they

afford business rate discounts? In some cases local authorities take

the view is that if that is what it takes to make the high street more

vibrant, it is worth it. Who has done that? A number of local

authorities have look at options, but we have only just given them the

powers. Also, looking at parking, freeing up local authorities to make

decisions as to what is right for parking for them so cars are not

dissuaded from being in a particular area. There are fundamental

challenges. You are right to mention online, and we talked about that in

the context of business rates. A lot of this is driven by the fact

consumers are making different decisions compared to a few years

ago. But there are places where we are seeing high streets starting to

turn around by providing what people want. That has got to be the key to

it as well. I think a lot of it is about giving local authorities that

flexibility to decide what they want from their high street. John. One of

the most exciting things that has happened in the Labour Party is we

have this Labour business group and we have also got this massive Labour

SME group, small businesses coming together. Writing in parts of our

manifesto and getting engaged. What we have decided is every Labour

constituency party now will have a business person and it is going down

a bomb and it has been a fantastic opportunity for us. Practical ideas

come forward. I was talking to my local convenience stores and

high-street reps and a couple of things came out. One, security has

become a real issue. The loss of safer neighbourhood team is, the

loss of town centre policing teams has become a real issue. It has

happened right across the country. The 20,000 please cut is about

security overall. We are talking about it in the context of

terrorism, but it is about security in the town centres and at night

time in town centres. We say we will reinstate that with 10,000 police

officers and we want to look at how that impact town centres. The second

issue, whether local bank branches close, that impact on the rest of

the high street. Say very clearly to the banks, you will not be allowed

to close a local branch unless you can demonstrate there is no real

need and unless there has been a proper consultation. We want to

ensure there is at least one bank branch on every high street because

it does impact on small businesses banking and overall footfall as

well. Just on this local authority issue, we cannot keep on panning

local authorities for not intervening whilst we are cutting

the resources they have to invest in their local area. I think this is a

cross-party point of view from local government. Local Government

Association said they want to be involved in the revival of their

town centres and shopping parades, but they have not got the resources

to do that. Part of the issue is about how we invest in the future

and how we ensure local authorities have the resources to do that, but

they do it on the basis of being required to consult properly with

local small businesses. Rather than take questions because we want to

move onto Brexit in a second. You asked the question. What you heard,

the microphone is coming to you, what you heard, does that answer

your question? It partly helps. Local convenience store is our

bricks and mortar businesses and they cannot run away. They have got

to be there. They are holding the local environment together. If they

become more run down, so many places have been decimated, market towns

across the country have been run down and they have invited very bad

behaviour. Then there is more expenditure on policing and social

services etc. I think the government needs to invest money and I am not

suggesting people can change the online behaviour, that is a

challenge, I accept that, but we need to bring social housing into

town centres, we need to bring in other amenities and not allow local

authorities to use bricks and mortar businesses which have got nowhere to

go as cash cows. Thank you very much. They are more than just a

shop. We are really tight for time and I want to move on. If it is very

quick. I ran a small community store in Berkshire. Yes, just adding on to

that point, for example I can just about the threshold where we get the

discount, it is ?14,000 rateable value. In our business there is a

business across the road that pays zero business rates. Because our

store is 100 square feet bigger we are paying about ?8,000 a year

business rates. On top of that with the ?10 minimum wage and we will

probably end up paying another ?5,000. How does this affect your

business? Overall you have got the increase in corporation tax which

will trickle down to small businesses, the business rates and

the minimum wage and it will put a cost of ?30,000 a year dashed

?30,000 a year. Will you survive? No, you cannot. An average is

?65,000 gross profit. Because we are tied into a lease there is nowhere

for us to go. As soon as the lease runs out it would make it worthwhile

to move across the road and set up a pop-up shop where we pay no rates

and get a discount from the council and the rents may be free. That

paints a very clear picture for our panel and as much as I would love

you to answer it, I am afraid you cannot. Thank you for a painting

that picture, it gives them food for thought. Let's move to the elephant

in the room, of course, how do you secure a pro-business Brexit? Is

anyone worried about Brexit and how it will impact on them? I thought

there might be a bit of that. Let's hear from the parties what they will

be doing about it. Possible, FSB policy adviser Charlotte has a

question for us. Unlike a lot of other business groups, our members

are very split over the EU referendum broadly reflecting the UK

population, but all of our members care about jobs and trade post

Brexit. My question is, how will you promote small business exporters and

small business access to talent and skills that they need? They take

that first. It is a really important question and getting a good Brexit

deal is the most important challenge the next government will face. So it

is a real priority for us as a country. We need to have that deep

and special partnership with the European Union. We also need to

identify new trading opportunities around the world. The referendum was

last year. I wanted to remain, but we have to accept the result. You

cannot go back on it, we cannot tell the British people they got it wrong

and we will rerun the whole thing, but it is very important as we shape

Brexit that we do so as an open, outward looking economy, prepared to

trade around the world and the key question for us is do we have a

Prime Minister and a team who are strong enough to get that good deal?

We have got a strong mandate from the British people so they can

negotiate with confidence and we have got the determination to

deliver a pro-business Brexit for the United Kingdom. When it comes to

that it seems to me that very clearly Theresa May and

Could I just say to you, I was on the Lord's supper committee for

SMEs. We looked at SMEs exporting across the company. And that

difference between their ability to selling with the single market

customs union across the continental Europe which they could do as

easily... We are in London today, as easy as they could between London

and Guilford, they could sell between London and Milan, London and

Brussels, the ease with which they could do it, that disappears because

Theresa May decided we are coming out of the single market and the

customs union. The companies are better able placed to cope with

that, the burden will fall heavily on our small businesses, and all the

other issues that go with it. I love the idea that small British

companies will export across the globe. I was a transport minister,

small companies used to use this phrase about selling to China, one

sale only, because they could not protect their past links when they

sold them. I worked with companies try to sell to Latin America,

impossible to get letters of credit said they could even be paid. There

are real obstacles to selling internationally, and losing that key

market where we currently sell 44% of our goods with an ease that is

pretty much similar as selling down the street is a huge problem. That

is one of the reasons... And along with being able to access and EU

workforce. Quite frankly, would you go through a hostile Beezer system

in order to come to did UK, your partner possibly not being able to

work, or would you take a job in Berlin or in Dusseldorf or Milan or

somewhere else that has exactly what you wanted? This deal could land

anywhere along huge spectrum and large parts of the spectrum has a

terrible impact on small businesses and it is why they should be a

threat to render on the final deal because we have no idea what its

content is going to be, we will have to live with it for a generation or

a generation and a half and wild decision on whether we live with it

all stayed within the EU should be yours not a single Prime Minister.

If you wrote the section of the manifesto, well done, the point you

make in it are highly pertinent. DFS the and the manifest dough, people

may have voted to leave the eat you but they didn't but got a loss of

jobs and the undermining of our business based in this country so

that has to be one of the key aspects we secure. I don't think you

secure that access by the roster and directs. I don't think this concept

of no deal is possible. We've got to get a deal. In my former life I was

a Chief Executive and used to represent London boroughs and I had

a office in Brussels. The negotiating style Brussels is you

negotiate with mutual respect, you don't threaten in the way that the

Prime Minister has done, that somehow we will be a tax haven of

the age of continental Europe, that is undermining getting the best deal

we can. We have to change the tone. We need access to the single market,

tariff-free, we accept that means the end of free movement but that

means we have managed migration system. We need to make sure we do

not lose the skills and talents we have in the EU. We need to guarantee

now the rights of Ede citizens in this tree. There are too many people

in this country that we depend upon. In the negotiations, whether a free

trade or whatever, I agree with the FSB there has to be a small-business

caveat to protect small illnesses and promote them. The issue with

training and the rest of the world, it is important that we recognise

the engine of growth in this economy and also engines of export,

particularly when we have this oblong with our current account

deficit at the moment. I'm interested in the FSB proposal about

tax relief for small businesses that are involved in exporting in the

future. I think there is a package of measures that could be really

constructed but we have to change the tone of these negotiations to

ensure we get the best deal and that it is a collaborative one and in the

interests of our country and the rest of the world. We have to wrap

up in a couple of minutes. Our esteemed guests are on the campaign

Trail and they have taken time out to be with us. Given what you have

heard on the Brexit issue, is there anyone here that feels better

business may not survive? That is encouraging. Does anyone feel this

election, when it comes to people like you who own businesses and

other people in the community as well, they will vote in terms of

credit rather in terms of what we would normal -- normally vote on?

Anyone voting on Brexit Alliance? This will be the final thought of

the day. My concerns are the Lib Dems are very much for stained in

the EU, if they were handling our Brexit, would they then secure a bad

deal and we would have a worst possible deal because they want us

to stay in? And, Labour, if you had given us the right to vote into the

EU now, would we be here now? You are very pro-EU and I feel that at

the moment, the only party I can see supporting the majority of the

British people is the Conservatives. Remember in Parliament, to be frank,

we have all accented Teret Rendon, we might have campaigned for remain

but we have accepted the result because that is democracy. We have

to commit ourselves to get the best deal possible and that Western deal

must protect jobs. This is the final bill. Are you optimistic we will get

a good bill -- deal? Yes, but we need to get the right team doing it.

We have the best team. The reality is, as of now, and from now on, if

we get a bad deal, everybody here will have absolutely no choice, no

say, no escape from it. They will be with it for a generation and a

generation and a half. No opportunity to challenge or we think

or change. I don't been that is democracy. I'm convinced we can get

a good deal. If a Labour government is collect it. I am petrified about

the way Theresa May is going about it. And if Boris gets his hands on

any of this, we are sunk. Thank you.