Home Affairs Election 2017


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Subtitles will begin at three o'clock.

:15:27.:30:42.

I just want to come back, Lord Carlile is everybody knows was the

:30:43.:30:53.

former independent reviewer of terrorism, and the question I would

:30:54.:30:57.

have is, Alex quite rightly said, where is the evidence. The answer is

:30:58.:31:02.

there might be some evidence in the internal review that the Home Office

:31:03.:31:06.

did, but they refused to share that with anybody. They will not do an

:31:07.:31:12.

independent review. So we don't know what the evidence is, other than to

:31:13.:31:17.

say there are elements within the Muslim community who are very

:31:18.:31:24.

concerned about Prevent, who are very suspicious about it, and this

:31:25.:31:28.

apparent reluctance to review it is adding to that issue. At the end of

:31:29.:31:32.

the day, it doesn't matter how small that part of the Muslim community is

:31:33.:31:37.

that is suspicious of Prevent, because it is probably in those

:31:38.:31:42.

parts of that community where it is essential that there is trust and

:31:43.:31:46.

confidence that the intelligence comes forward. In other areas of the

:31:47.:31:52.

Muslim community who are very supportive of the police and

:31:53.:31:55.

security services, you are not likely to have people being

:31:56.:31:59.

radicalised. It is in exactly those places where the most suspicion is

:32:00.:32:03.

that the most vital intelligence is going to come forward, and therefore

:32:04.:32:06.

it is essential that that part of the Muslim community has trust and

:32:07.:32:10.

confidence in whatever replaces Prevent. If I can just pick on

:32:11.:32:15.

something that Brandon said in his opening address, Prevent is but one

:32:16.:32:20.

part of the security picture, and it is interesting that the Conservative

:32:21.:32:23.

manifesto talks about bringing in new terrorism powers in the wake of

:32:24.:32:30.

Manchester, looking at new ways to tackle extremism, but there was a

:32:31.:32:37.

counter extremism built a few years ago that never got legs, and there

:32:38.:32:40.

seems to be some disagreement on how to tackle extremism and how to

:32:41.:32:53.

define it. So I just wondered, Max Hale who is Alex's successor made

:32:54.:32:59.

this point the other day that perhaps we don't need to have new

:33:00.:33:02.

laws, we should just use the ones that we have. A couple of points

:33:03.:33:07.

there, one is what we have said, we will look at and do what is

:33:08.:33:10.

necessary to keep the country safe, and that is working with our police

:33:11.:33:16.

and security services to work with what is important at one time. One

:33:17.:33:21.

is that if you look at the orders for example you have just mentioned,

:33:22.:33:25.

they are one of the tools that the services have at their disposal,

:33:26.:33:34.

there are others. But if there is a clear issue, stopping them

:33:35.:33:36.

permanently is a different tool, that is something we can do as well,

:33:37.:33:40.

so it is just one of the tools that the services have to look at what is

:33:41.:33:46.

appropriate. But equally, one of the challenges and one of the things we

:33:47.:33:49.

have got to be very clear about with any legislation about this is one of

:33:50.:33:52.

the areas where it comes back to the point made a short while ago, which

:33:53.:33:58.

is around how people are being radicalised and where they are being

:33:59.:34:01.

radicalised, and one of the challenges now is that a lot of that

:34:02.:34:04.

can be happening online, and the challenges online and the speed with

:34:05.:34:08.

which the online community is moving is that as quickly as you can

:34:09.:34:12.

legislate, bearing in mind the time frame it takes to legislate, the

:34:13.:34:15.

technology and the way they are spreading information can move on,

:34:16.:34:18.

so it is better to look at other tools and other service providers

:34:19.:34:23.

are getting down, and another thing Prevent has done is taken 270,000

:34:24.:34:27.

websites down that have been spreading radicalisation, but there

:34:28.:34:30.

is always more to do because this is a fast-moving area. Diane, you

:34:31.:34:36.

wanted to talk about that? I wanted to say that one of the ways people

:34:37.:34:38.

can also be radicalised is in prison. Not necessarily with the man

:34:39.:34:49.

who had the suicide bomb in Manchester, but there is a pattern

:34:50.:34:58.

with jihadis, and I think Prevent should be more proactive in prisons.

:34:59.:35:02.

I think it is difficult in the climate of trust at the witches

:35:03.:35:10.

about keeping in mum -- which is about keeping imams and so on

:35:11.:35:18.

separate from other prisoners, but I think there is more to be done in

:35:19.:35:22.

prisons about not having people radicalised. This idea that concerns

:35:23.:35:28.

about Prevent are ill informed conjecture from the Muslim

:35:29.:35:30.

community, if it is just ill informed conjecture, why is it that

:35:31.:35:40.

the independent review, the Home Affairs Select Committee looked at

:35:41.:35:43.

this thoroughly and called from review, and why would the joint

:35:44.:35:46.

committee on human rights call for a review. It is more than conjecture

:35:47.:35:50.

in the Muslim community. Independent stakeholders have said no room for

:35:51.:35:59.

complacency, we have to work. I interested give any previous views

:36:00.:36:03.

on security services and special Branch, were you to be elected in

:36:04.:36:05.

government and become Home Secretary, how would you get that

:36:06.:36:10.

balance back? How would you work with them to try to work through

:36:11.:36:14.

these issues? I don't know what you are saying about my previous views.

:36:15.:36:21.

You wanted to have them abolished. That was some time ago. MI5 at that

:36:22.:36:30.

time needed reforming, and it has now been reformed, and so a Labour

:36:31.:36:36.

government would support MI5. I think it is a question of having the

:36:37.:36:41.

proper legal oversight. With all of these issues, in the end of you have

:36:42.:36:44.

the proper illegal oversight, you can have a service that both works

:36:45.:36:49.

for the British people, helps keep the British people safe but doesn't

:36:50.:36:57.

overstep the mark in terms of civil liberties. I have to say, as part of

:36:58.:37:01.

the debates around the investigatory Powers act, I had the privilege to

:37:02.:37:08.

go to Vauxhall Cross and GCHQ and talk directly to the security

:37:09.:37:13.

services. I was absolutely amazed at what it is possible to do, they do

:37:14.:37:20.

an incredible job. But, and I think the investigatory Powers act is a

:37:21.:37:25.

step forward in terms of accountability, independent

:37:26.:37:29.

assessment of the risks and whether or not granting a warrant is

:37:30.:37:32.

justified. I think there is a lot of good in it, there are parts of it we

:37:33.:37:35.

disagree with fundamentally, but generally speaking it is a step in

:37:36.:37:41.

the right direction, but temporary extrusion orders are key to

:37:42.:37:45.

understanding what happened in Manchester. We now know that this

:37:46.:37:51.

guy went to Libya, potentially went to Syria, and then came back to the

:37:52.:37:55.

UK. There has been a power on the statute book for two years for these

:37:56.:38:02.

people who have been and involved in terrorism abroad to be prevented

:38:03.:38:07.

from coming back into the UK unless and until they agree to undergo a

:38:08.:38:11.

Die Roten -- a de Waard deradicalisation programme. I think

:38:12.:38:31.

it hasn't been used that often, it wasn't used in this case. We have to

:38:32.:38:36.

look at how the existing powers are being used, how effectively are they

:38:37.:38:41.

being used. The calls to the anti-terrorist hotline, it is the

:38:42.:38:43.

Met to manage the hotline and they said they had no record of any

:38:44.:38:48.

calls. But that just goes to the point, did those people speak to

:38:49.:38:53.

Greater Manchester Police, they thought it was anti-terrorism, maybe

:38:54.:38:58.

it was something else. But I think we have the right level of powers

:38:59.:39:02.

for the security services, and in fact the thing that we disagree with

:39:03.:39:06.

in the investigatory Powers act, which is Internet connection

:39:07.:39:11.

records, effectively a year's worth of your web history being recorded

:39:12.:39:19.

by your Internet services provider in case the police and security

:39:20.:39:24.

services want to look at it is going too far. It is an intrusion into

:39:25.:39:30.

peoples privacy, and it is creating a vast amount of data which could

:39:31.:39:34.

easily be hacked into by criminals or foreign hostile countries. And in

:39:35.:39:41.

any event, at those briefings that I attended, the security services said

:39:42.:39:43.

they did not need Internet connection records to be stored by

:39:44.:39:50.

those Internet companies in order to keep this country safe from

:39:51.:39:56.

terrorism. In which case, how on earth can we justify this massive

:39:57.:40:02.

intrusion into people's privacy if the very people that it is intended

:40:03.:40:05.

to help are saying it is not necessary in order to prevent

:40:06.:40:12.

terrorism. The issue of the IP bill takes us into more general issues of

:40:13.:40:16.

policing beyond security, because of course chief constables will

:40:17.:40:19.

invariably talk about Internet connection records and the

:40:20.:40:25.

requirements under the IP bill in terms of a much wider range of

:40:26.:40:28.

powers, and investigations including missing people, and that is missing

:40:29.:40:33.

people actually makes of a massive chunk of that area, and this brings

:40:34.:40:39.

us into the issue about social media companies, the debate about free

:40:40.:40:42.

speech and where that balance lies, so perhaps we can get some views

:40:43.:40:45.

from the panel on those kind of issues. While I am on a roll, we

:40:46.:40:51.

have looked at this in connection with online pornography. We clearly

:40:52.:40:56.

want to protect young people from accessing Internet pornography. And

:40:57.:41:02.

the measures that the Government put forward on this, bearing in mind

:41:03.:41:07.

that certainly the most popular pawn sites are in the United States of

:41:08.:41:11.

America, the two provisions in the Bill were to levy a fine on those

:41:12.:41:22.

companies, and the next was to block access to those websites, and the

:41:23.:41:26.

people who were going to be doing this, the independent body who were

:41:27.:41:29.

going to be doing this said that that first provision was

:41:30.:41:33.

unenforceable, and that is the problem with these big social media

:41:34.:41:37.

companies, whether you are talking about encrypting communication, or

:41:38.:41:44.

Facebook or other sites which post terrorist material, this can only be

:41:45.:41:49.

done in close corporation with the American government. It can only be

:41:50.:41:55.

done on an almost voluntary basis, by putting pressure on rather than

:41:56.:41:58.

legislating against these big American tech companies. You are not

:41:59.:42:04.

going to, and so we have looked at it, we have explored it, we have

:42:05.:42:08.

come to the conclusion it is not possible. So for the Conservative

:42:09.:42:12.

Party to say that they are going to legislate to not allow WhatsApp to

:42:13.:42:17.

have end-to-end encryption, to order Facebook to take down terrorist

:42:18.:42:24.

material, it is not practical to do so. We need to look at other ways of

:42:25.:42:30.

tackling these issues. I will pick up on a couple of bits. I find it

:42:31.:42:40.

slightly worrying that Ayane -- Diane is talking about things as

:42:41.:42:42.

Home Office policy that is not Home Office at all, prisons is the

:42:43.:42:46.

Ministry of Justice, and you should know that. That is because when I

:42:47.:42:51.

worked at the Home Office, it did cover prisons, and I think we should

:42:52.:42:54.

work more closely with them. You need to think about what the Home

:42:55.:42:59.

Office does now. But at the same time, you are talking about a policy

:43:00.:43:03.

happening that the emoji a is actually doing, which is great if

:43:04.:43:10.

you support it, but it would be nice if you would understand it as well.

:43:11.:43:14.

We are not suggesting to do that at all, and I do agree with it on two

:43:15.:43:22.

levels. The security services do do an amazing job, and what they do is

:43:23.:43:26.

quite phenomenal, we really do have amongst the best in the world, but I

:43:27.:43:30.

do agree that one of the challenges we have with the Internet companies,

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it comes back to appoint to have made a couple of times, one is the

:43:34.:43:37.

pace at which technology moves is so fast that legislation cannot

:43:38.:43:40.

necessarily keep up, just the process of legislation, by the time

:43:41.:43:44.

you have done that, they have changed the terminology. And the way

:43:45.:43:49.

they encrypt means it doesn't work that well, and that is why the Home

:43:50.:43:52.

Secretary has just a few weeks ago had these companies in to work with

:43:53.:43:56.

them. It is in their interest as well, and it is not just about the

:43:57.:44:00.

big companies, it is small start-up companies, all over the world one or

:44:01.:44:03.

two people who don't necessarily realise that the platform they are

:44:04.:44:07.

creating can be a hiding place for people in organised crime or

:44:08.:44:10.

terrorism, and these big companies, working with them to help the

:44:11.:44:13.

smaller companies understand what they are doing so we do not have

:44:14.:44:17.

safe havens created the terrorists and people in organised crime who

:44:18.:44:22.

can prey on young people, older people, whoever they are. Rob

:44:23.:44:25.

Wainwright at Europol makes a point we should think about. Whether it is

:44:26.:44:31.

transport, global communications, telecommunications, we can intercept

:44:32.:44:36.

and interrupt those with democratic accountability, and we have to work

:44:37.:44:39.

with the Internet companies to make sure we can keep their customers

:44:40.:44:42.

safe and they play an important part in that, it is right for them and

:44:43.:44:49.

the customers, and it is not right to allow terrorists and organised

:44:50.:44:53.

crime is to have a safe haven. Isn't a safe haven. Security services have

:44:54.:44:57.

ways of getting the information. A lot of it is around directed

:44:58.:45:03.

equipment interference. If you use equipment interference, you can see

:45:04.:45:06.

exactly what is on the phone or computer screen at either end, and

:45:07.:45:10.

end-to-end encryption is no longer an issue. Some of this with the

:45:11.:45:17.

technology companies might come down to philosophy. The leaks in relation

:45:18.:45:20.

to US intelligence that we saw in relation to the Manchester bombing

:45:21.:45:25.

clearly showed a very different approach in the US to Britain, and

:45:26.:45:31.

I'm just wondering, have they got the balance right, do you believe,

:45:32.:45:34.

about freedom of speech and the right to have discussions privately

:45:35.:45:39.

versus the security services, the intelligence agencies and the police

:45:40.:45:43.

to be able to gather the information that they need? I seem to recall

:45:44.:45:48.

about five minutes ago you asked me a question, and I didn't get a

:45:49.:45:52.

chance to answer it yet. Just to backtrack a little bit if I may. The

:45:53.:45:56.

second chamber was quite instrumental in making some

:45:57.:45:59.

improvements to the investigative Powers Bill, unfortunately it

:46:00.:46:05.

doesn't go far enough from our point of view, and we have to consider

:46:06.:46:10.

what is the level of public consent and intrusion which is being

:46:11.:46:13.

propagated now in terms of meta data, even though it might not have

:46:14.:46:16.

your name on it it is sufficient in terms of what activities you are

:46:17.:46:24.

engaging in, and you might say, I have nothing to hide, therefore I

:46:25.:46:27.

have nothing to fear, but I think our societies are bigger than that

:46:28.:46:33.

in terms of you might say a right to privacy extending on to how you can

:46:34.:46:40.

speak and use social media. Don't we want to be rather more cautious

:46:41.:46:44.

before we engage in those kind of intrusions as the EU court of

:46:45.:46:49.

justice themselves warned last December, that it was contravening

:46:50.:46:51.

our basic rights to privacy. Services Institute for when we

:46:52.:47:01.

potentially go in to increasing encroachments of Civil Liberties

:47:02.:47:07.

under the pretext or reasonable justification of security that we

:47:08.:47:09.

end up in the quantity we wanted to avoid which is that we change out of

:47:10.:47:18.

every change -- way of life. It is Franklin's quip that those who would

:47:19.:47:27.

sacrifice liberty and the deal idea of security risk or even deserve to

:47:28.:47:30.

lose both, and we wouldn't want to get into that sit duration. We need

:47:31.:47:41.

to launch a digital bill, a civilian led digital bill of rights whether

:47:42.:47:47.

people who are affected are these decisions themselves have a far

:47:48.:47:50.

greater say in what is going gone. It is all well and good for the two

:47:51.:47:54.

chambers to get together and produce the IP bill but I don't feel there

:47:55.:47:56.

was sufficient public rate or consent with respect to those

:47:57.:48:04.

intrusions. We've been waiting for quite some time for a government

:48:05.:48:07.

digital ill so a citizen of one might take some time. Before I move

:48:08.:48:13.

on, I would like to take some questions from the floor. Is there a

:48:14.:48:33.

microphone? Diane, when we look at you and your leaders' record, and a

:48:34.:48:43.

counterterrorism legislation in Parliament, some people are worried

:48:44.:48:46.

that if you get into Downing Street next week that this country may yet

:48:47.:48:51.

be exposed to a most brutal terrorist attack as did France under

:48:52.:48:57.

a socialist government over the past five years. What do you have to say

:48:58.:49:04.

to them? I would say that it is certainly the case that in a long

:49:05.:49:10.

parliamentary career, Jeremy has voted against a number of pieces of

:49:11.:49:16.

counterterrorism legislation, not all of them. But what you have to

:49:17.:49:25.

remember is that on many of those occasions, Labour MPs marched

:49:26.:49:32.

through the lobbies with Tory MPs. Theresa May herself voted against

:49:33.:49:36.

the prevention of terrorism act in 2005. She voted against patrol

:49:37.:49:44.

orders. She voted against ID cards and David Davis, who is now Brexit

:49:45.:49:50.

Secretary, we marched through lobbies with him. The issue was not

:49:51.:49:56.

that David Davies Theresa May was soft on terrorism, the issue was

:49:57.:50:00.

that we felt that some of this counterterrorism legislation was in

:50:01.:50:06.

fact counter-productive. On the question of detention without trial,

:50:07.:50:12.

which was defeated, ultimately, we could see from the Northern Ireland

:50:13.:50:17.

experience that unlimited internment can be wholly counter-productive. If

:50:18.:50:23.

you were going to say that Jeremy and I are soft on terrorism because

:50:24.:50:30.

we voted against some aspects of counterterrorism legislation, then

:50:31.:50:34.

you also have to say the same thing about the conservatives who voted in

:50:35.:50:38.

the same way. Just to get back to what the minister said about prison,

:50:39.:50:42.

you will not have an effective counterterrorism strategy if we

:50:43.:50:49.

operate in silence. I mention prisons for a reason. There is

:50:50.:50:53.

concern in communities how men are going into prison with no background

:50:54.:50:59.

in the Muslim community and coming out radicalised. I know you have a

:51:00.:51:04.

strategy, I just don't think the strategy is good enough. We need to

:51:05.:51:06.

target and highlight and support people who are at risk of

:51:07.:51:12.

radicalisation imprisoned. Dismissing this issue by saying the

:51:13.:51:14.

prison Department is freed from the Home Office tends to make me think

:51:15.:51:20.

you'd ink you can have a counterterrorism strategy which

:51:21.:51:22.

operates in silence, and that will not meet the modern challenge.

:51:23.:51:28.

Again, you are missing the second part of what I said. We are doing it

:51:29.:51:35.

at the moment. The question misses the entire point about what people

:51:36.:51:39.

are concerned about. It is not just about weather has been a couple of

:51:40.:51:48.

pieces of legislation. Jeremy has made for 45 years, against all

:51:49.:51:56.

interventions. For 35 years. Welcoming terrorists first tea. That

:51:57.:52:05.

is not somebody who anyone can be trusted with anti-terrorism laws. On

:52:06.:52:11.

the other hand, not a week goes past where a Labour peer stands up and

:52:12.:52:16.

demands the introduction of ID cards. 90% of... Labour are all over

:52:17.:52:28.

the place, as far as Civil Liberties and terrorism is concerned. Jeremy

:52:29.:52:32.

Corbyn apparently now is in favour of Trident soap Widnes knows what

:52:33.:52:38.

his attitude is towards the security services now. -- so goodness knows.

:52:39.:52:51.

A follow-up question? Journalist from the sun. A question from the

:52:52.:52:59.

home set -- for Diane Abbott. You said the Home Office is

:53:00.:53:02.

fundamentally racist organisation, you said everything to for the art

:53:03.:53:10.

-- victory for the IRA was a victory for us all and now you are asking

:53:11.:53:16.

for -- to be the boss of the Home Office. If you want to be their

:53:17.:53:25.

boss, is now time to say sorry? It is now time to have a debate about

:53:26.:53:34.

home affairs, which is free from tit-for-tat. I have... 34 use ago, I

:53:35.:53:44.

have spoken about these issues, but I have also, as a constituency MP,

:53:45.:53:48.

worked at the grass roots with my police officers on issues of crime

:53:49.:53:55.

and terrorism. And I am very well aware of people's and sermons on

:53:56.:54:02.

these issues and if the best you can do is retrieve quotes from long ago,

:54:03.:54:09.

you will have to have a better narrative than that, if you are

:54:10.:54:14.

going to persuade the judge people that diverse communities and the

:54:15.:54:19.

Labour Party itself should not be involved in these debates. If you

:54:20.:54:30.

ask police officers now, which leader of which political party do

:54:31.:54:33.

they see as their enemy, they will say it is Theresa May, not Jeremy

:54:34.:54:44.

Corbyn. One more question. After the aftermath of the attacks in

:54:45.:54:48.

Manchester and Westminster, how you deal with this spike in hate crime,

:54:49.:54:55.

a 50% rise, which we haven't talked about at all, which is a deep

:54:56.:54:59.

concern to the Muslim community? This is a thing which needs to be

:55:00.:55:04.

dealt with with great sensitivity and figure. How do you go forward? I

:55:05.:55:09.

would like to hear from the Minister and Diane in particular on what

:55:10.:55:13.

their views are. I have been very clear about this. I was after we saw

:55:14.:55:19.

a spike after the vote last year. I made this point with fellow

:55:20.:55:22.

ministers in Brussels. Any hate crime of any type is completely an

:55:23.:55:27.

acceptable and we all have a part to play in making sure we are very

:55:28.:55:32.

clear about that. We have some of the toughest laws in the world

:55:33.:55:35.

around this and we have to make sure we work with communities to ensure

:55:36.:55:39.

people are clear how an acceptable that is. It is important that they

:55:40.:55:45.

led by and are working with those communities. The spike in hate crime

:55:46.:55:50.

is very concerning an dipped substantially concerns the Muslim

:55:51.:55:57.

community. We had a large Hasidic Jewish community in the country and

:55:58.:56:01.

they too have experienced a rise in hate crime since the Brexit vote. In

:56:02.:56:08.

Hackney. Their figures, for the amount of hate crime they are

:56:09.:56:11.

experiencing, is actually higher than the Metropolitan Police's

:56:12.:56:18.

official figures. I think that when it comes to hate crime, all of us,

:56:19.:56:22.

politicians and journalists, have to be very careful about the rhetoric

:56:23.:56:29.

we use. If we use the rhetoric which takes to the conclusion that certain

:56:30.:56:32.

communities are the enemy within, that does not help to lower the

:56:33.:56:38.

tension. I think there is a policing Di mentioned to combating hate

:56:39.:56:43.

crime, but there is also a dimension about the narrative that politicians

:56:44.:56:47.

and journalists and commentators use. My communities in Hackney, they

:56:48.:56:57.

are very frightened by this rise in hate crime. They are worried that

:56:58.:57:00.

politicians are not doing all they can to have a more temperate

:57:01.:57:05.

discussion on these issues, including immigration. I agree with

:57:06.:57:11.

Diana on this in terms of the rhetoric that politicians use. I

:57:12.:57:14.

referred in my opening remarks about this phrase that the Conservative

:57:15.:57:20.

government are using about making the UK a hostile place for illegal

:57:21.:57:24.

immigrants. When you have fans driving around telling people to go

:57:25.:57:27.

home, that has an impact on those who are here legally as well as

:57:28.:57:34.

those who are here illegally. We saw a significant increase in hate crime

:57:35.:57:38.

following the Brexit vote. Inappropriate use of words by

:57:39.:57:42.

politicians give permission almost two people to turn their prejudice

:57:43.:57:48.

into discrimination against people. It is interesting that Brendan says

:57:49.:57:53.

all hate crime is an acceptable, but only certain hate crime is actually

:57:54.:58:00.

called an aggravated offence. You can get four times the centres for

:58:01.:58:06.

religious or race hatred than you can against a disabled person. I

:58:07.:58:10.

would challenge that as well. At the bottom line is that yes, we have

:58:11.:58:17.

seen over the last six or seven years of decline, up until recently,

:58:18.:58:21.

in what I would call traditional crime. Online fraud cyber crime is

:58:22.:58:28.

now, according to the latest crime survey, almost 50% of the crime that

:58:29.:58:32.

people experience in this country. But recently we have seen an

:58:33.:58:37.

increase in traditional crime, particularly hate crime and knife

:58:38.:58:42.

crime, and including an increase in homicides. That should be a red

:58:43.:58:47.

light to all the political parties that police cuts have gone too far.

:58:48.:58:52.

We need to turn that around and we need the best in community policing,

:58:53.:58:58.

more visible police officers on the street to reassure minority

:58:59.:59:01.

communities, to deter the racist, and to address head-on this pub

:59:02.:59:08.

which I am very glad you raised. That brings us into the area of

:59:09.:59:13.

policing, we will move on from security and talk about that. I

:59:14.:59:17.

think the terrorism Operation Herne asked week highlighted something

:59:18.:59:20.

that had not gained much traction with the public, the issue of cuts.

:59:21.:59:28.

Once you see Army officers guarding venues and areas of significant

:59:29.:59:33.

interest in London, that brings that to the fore. A researcher here has a

:59:34.:59:40.

rest in that we can start the discussion with. Hi. My question

:59:41.:59:56.

is... I know a good few police officers and former police officers

:59:57.:00:01.

and they have all said to me that the guest disaster that has ever

:00:02.:00:07.

been faced is that Tory government's cuts on the police force. All you

:00:08.:00:11.

have to do is look at the Police Federation response to previous Home

:00:12.:00:19.

Secretary is and there are more than 20,000 cuts. If you count the

:00:20.:00:24.

civilian forces as well it is 30 6000. And there are the defence cuts

:00:25.:00:34.

to the military. It is not fit for purpose, it needs more investing

:00:35.:00:38.

money in it and you are the guys that... Why are you building

:00:39.:00:44.

destroyers that can't operate in warm waters? The aircraft carriers,

:00:45.:00:48.

where are the planes? ... We might focus on the issue of

:00:49.:00:59.

police officers specifically, and given that the Conservatives have

:01:00.:01:03.

overseen the austerities regime that has resulted in a lot of 36,000

:01:04.:01:08.

officers and staff, and the police are now having further cuts. Can

:01:09.:01:13.

they cope with the lack of manpower, that reduced manpower? That was a

:01:14.:01:20.

prediction, but that is a matter for the commission and the mayor. I have

:01:21.:01:26.

to say, in terms of where we are, I appreciate the point you're making.

:01:27.:01:29.

We can't live in a vacuum of pretending that we didn't have a

:01:30.:01:35.

horrendous economic in 2010, and from 2010 through 2015, we did have

:01:36.:01:39.

to make some very, very difficult decisions that affected a whole

:01:40.:01:42.

range of areas including local government which I was working in

:01:43.:01:45.

for a while and obviously in police where we had to reduce the funding.

:01:46.:01:52.

We inherited a 152 billion deficit, we have it down to just over 50, but

:01:53.:01:58.

there is a long way to go. To pretend there is this magic money

:01:59.:02:02.

tree is fantasyland. In terms of the policing, the counter-terrorism side

:02:03.:02:08.

has been increasing since 2010 and will increase much more through to

:02:09.:02:14.

2020 going forward. On the police itself, we protected the spending

:02:15.:02:19.

going forward, so for example this year there is not a single police

:02:20.:02:22.

force outside of one that should see anything other than a slight

:02:23.:02:28.

increase or an increase overall in their funding. What they use their

:02:29.:02:36.

reserves for, that is a matter for the PCC and the Chief Constable, but

:02:37.:02:40.

they have had money there, they have had surpluses, and how they use that

:02:41.:02:44.

as a matter for them, and that is why you see a number of the PCC is

:02:45.:02:48.

and Chief constables are recruiting police officers, but just to clarify

:02:49.:02:55.

a point, the ONS is including for the second quarter of this cyber

:02:56.:02:59.

crime and fraud being included, which is good because we stuck to

:03:00.:03:03.

get a real picture and understanding of what is happening. But there are

:03:04.:03:09.

two parts, the crime survey on the reporting of recording of crime, and

:03:10.:03:12.

what is very clear is that crime in this country has fallen by a third

:03:13.:03:16.

since 2010, that is a good thing, including violent crime, and that is

:03:17.:03:20.

thanks to the great work the police are doing where they are very

:03:21.:03:24.

focused on getting crime down and reporting and recording is going up

:03:25.:03:26.

because people have more confidence to come forward, not just recording

:03:27.:03:30.

factors have got better and police are getting better at it, the new

:03:31.:03:35.

commission in London at line they have changed their processes again

:03:36.:03:37.

for knife crime to better assess what the spike is, but more people

:03:38.:03:42.

having confidence to come forward as a good thing, but crime is falling

:03:43.:03:46.

and has fallen since 2010, and we have now protected police funding

:03:47.:03:53.

going forward. I will expect Brian will want to pick up on that. The

:03:54.:03:57.

interesting debate about crime rates rising is the difference between the

:03:58.:04:01.

crime survey Ning Ding and Wales and the public's perception of crime,

:04:02.:04:05.

and real ONS statistics which are showing what police constables have

:04:06.:04:09.

described to me which is very disturbing spikes in knife crime and

:04:10.:04:12.

violent crime, and there doesn't seem to be a great amount of ideas

:04:13.:04:16.

about exactly where it is coming from and why it is happening. People

:04:17.:04:20.

point to cuts, there are other factors as well and I don't know

:04:21.:04:23.

whether Brian wants to pick up on some of those issues. The Liberal

:04:24.:04:27.

Democrats were part of the coalition with the Tories that cut police

:04:28.:04:30.

budgets, and I own that, I accept that. And the evidence showed that

:04:31.:04:36.

in terms of what I call traditional crime, not online crime or cyber

:04:37.:04:41.

crime, it wasn't recorded, so we didn't know what was happening to

:04:42.:04:44.

that, but on the face of it, it looked like those cuts were

:04:45.:04:48.

reasonable against the crime picture. Now we have a fuller crime

:04:49.:04:53.

picture. As I said in my opening remarks, the latest crime survey

:04:54.:04:56.

shows almost half of crime that people experience is cyber crime or

:04:57.:05:00.

online fraud which doesn't normally get reported to the police at all.

:05:01.:05:06.

When my Bag card was cloned and used in Bangkok, my bag just pay the

:05:07.:05:11.

money back, I never bothered the police with it, it was never

:05:12.:05:15.

recorded. But the other important thing is, Liberal Democrats know

:05:16.:05:20.

when to stop, and the Conservatives don't. Violent crime is increasing,

:05:21.:05:26.

hate crime is increasing, knife crime is increasing, there is an

:05:27.:05:29.

epidemic of young people dying on the streets of London, and yet the

:05:30.:05:35.

Metropolitan Police, who have had ?800 million cut from their budget

:05:36.:05:41.

are facing another ?200 million cut between now and the end of what

:05:42.:05:48.

would have been if this Parliament had run its full course. That is ?1

:05:49.:05:53.

billion cuts in policing. And against a trend of an increase in

:05:54.:05:58.

violent crime, that is complete madness. Diane, you have spoken

:05:59.:06:05.

about this issue and concern about policing numbers. Where will the

:06:06.:06:11.

money come from to get extra police officers on the streets, and why is

:06:12.:06:16.

that so important? Let me just touch on something which Brandon said,

:06:17.:06:20.

which is that crime is dropping. I'm surprised you can sit here in the

:06:21.:06:25.

centre of London and sound that complacent, because we know in

:06:26.:06:29.

London, homicides, knife crime and gun crime are rising. What I have

:06:30.:06:36.

said is factually correct. Violent crime is down by nearly 400,000

:06:37.:06:44.

cases since 2010, so it is correct. Within those overall figures, we in

:06:45.:06:48.

London know, and other metropolitan centres... But don't misrepresent

:06:49.:06:54.

what I said. Within those overall figures we have seen a rise in gun

:06:55.:06:59.

crime, I think it is 42%, and knife crime, 24%, and that is a great

:07:00.:07:02.

concern to people. On the question of the need for more police, it goes

:07:03.:07:07.

back to the discussion we had about counter-terrorism. We want to have

:07:08.:07:12.

10,000 more police officers. We think they have got an important

:07:13.:07:17.

role to play in relation to engaging with communities and being a conduit

:07:18.:07:22.

for information and conduct and working with communities, and what

:07:23.:07:25.

you have to remember about the police is the role of the police and

:07:26.:07:28.

the pressures on the police are changing. If you look at the figures

:07:29.:07:34.

and show the amount of time that police officers spend on what you

:07:35.:07:38.

might call thief taking has dropped. A lot of their time now is spent on

:07:39.:07:43.

issues arising from Tory cuts and more broadly in local government. It

:07:44.:07:46.

is dealing with mental health issues, dealing with domestic

:07:47.:07:52.

violence. With the cuts in local authorities and the NHS, in many

:07:53.:07:56.

cases, the police have become the public sector service of last

:07:57.:08:00.

resort, and that puts them under pressure. So we think there should

:08:01.:08:06.

be more police. We are conscious as Brandon has conceded that we have

:08:07.:08:12.

20,000 fewer police officers then we had in 2010 when Theresa May's watch

:08:13.:08:19.

started. We want to start to remedy that with 10,000 more, and we will

:08:20.:08:23.

pay for it as we have said by reversing the Tory cuts in capital

:08:24.:08:28.

gains tax which will raise 2.75 billion. My understanding is that

:08:29.:08:41.

you won't be spending 300 million until 2020/2021, and they did

:08:42.:08:43.

include the first year training costs and equipment costs which add

:08:44.:08:50.

an extra 20,000 on to the ?30,000 pay bill, and therefore

:08:51.:08:54.

unfortunately, not only are you promising 10,000 officers only in

:08:55.:08:57.

the last year of the Parliament and not before, but also that you do not

:08:58.:09:01.

have enough money in the budget to actually train and equip them. We

:09:02.:09:07.

are planning to recruit... You will know better than I, you can't

:09:08.:09:10.

recruit 10,000 officers in 12 months. We are saying that over a

:09:11.:09:16.

period for five years, we will have recruited 10,000 further officers.

:09:17.:09:19.

That is exactly what I have just said, yes. But what I am saying to

:09:20.:09:25.

you, what I reminded you of is that we will be finding the money to pay

:09:26.:09:28.

for those officers, and any related costs, from the 2.75 billion. We are

:09:29.:09:39.

putting 1.2 billion into this, and Labour are putting 771 million over

:09:40.:09:45.

the course of the next Parliament. You already had a chance to have a

:09:46.:09:52.

go at each other last night! For me, the Greens, politics is about

:09:53.:09:55.

priorities, and if you want to pave your public services, and arguably

:09:56.:09:58.

police is one of them, you need to be able to pave that properly, and

:09:59.:10:06.

we have seen cuts in particularly community support officers, they

:10:07.:10:09.

were popular in terms of neighbourhood policing, and they

:10:10.:10:12.

were a conduit for people to be able to talk to communicate, for school

:10:13.:10:15.

children and youths to be able to talk to those officers and tell them

:10:16.:10:18.

about who is taking knives into school and all the rest of it. But

:10:19.:10:24.

we mustn't confuse correlation with causation, but there are a series of

:10:25.:10:30.

correlations in terms of work capability assessments, the bedroom

:10:31.:10:33.

tax, there is a correlation between those individuals on the sharp end

:10:34.:10:35.

of that, rising inequality across society, greater disgruntlement, and

:10:36.:10:43.

greater crime. So we need to be aware that if we want to do anything

:10:44.:10:46.

about the mantra tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime, we

:10:47.:10:50.

need to investigate and explore and try to make sure that we are not

:10:51.:10:54.

doing things in society which increase inequality and therefore

:10:55.:10:59.

increase the proponent of crime for that reason, and at the same time we

:11:00.:11:05.

must of course increase police numbers, but we need to get a stage

:11:06.:11:08.

where we should be able to reduce police and others there isn't so

:11:09.:11:12.

much crime because we are living in a happy more egalitarian society.

:11:13.:11:18.

The police are facing increasingly complex issues, so the idea that

:11:19.:11:26.

vulnerability, child sex abuse, the idea that you might go to somehow

:11:27.:11:29.

reduced numbers and tackle those issues is something that I would say

:11:30.:11:33.

is quite a big concern for senior police officers. And picking up the

:11:34.:11:39.

gaps that have been created in other public services, for example there

:11:40.:11:42.

is not enough mental health provision, so people are going into

:11:43.:11:46.

crisis and are a danger to themselves and the public more often

:11:47.:11:49.

than has been in the past, and it is the police you have to deal with

:11:50.:11:53.

that as well as the crime issues. Coming back to a few other points, I

:11:54.:11:57.

won't get into how many times over the corporation tax thing has been

:11:58.:12:00.

spent by Labour on various different things. I am agreeing with Brian,

:12:01.:12:05.

the numbers just don't add up in terms of the salaries, training,

:12:06.:12:09.

recruitment. But in terms of policing, the whole world of

:12:10.:12:13.

policing is changing, because crime is changing, we are seeing cyber

:12:14.:12:19.

crime growing, and some of the reforms we have done, we have seen

:12:20.:12:22.

the National Crime Agency taking a lead on some of these things and

:12:23.:12:26.

working with volunteers who have expertise. But we have to be clear

:12:27.:12:31.

about what the numbers are. In London, the Metropolitan Police is

:12:32.:12:34.

the best funded police force in the country by a substantial margin,

:12:35.:12:39.

over ?200 a head, yet the best performing police force, which is

:12:40.:12:43.

Durham, is one of the lower funded, which proves in terms of how police

:12:44.:12:47.

forces operate it is not just about how much money they have got. You

:12:48.:12:52.

are not comparing like with like at all. It is about how police forces

:12:53.:12:57.

spend their money, and that is one of the key points in the report. It

:12:58.:13:01.

is also why we are seeing traditional crime falling, cyber

:13:02.:13:08.

crime and fraud being a new part on that, and police forces across the

:13:09.:13:12.

country are currently sitting on ?1.8 billion of reserves, not

:13:13.:13:16.

capital reserves, that is an increase of 400 million in just the

:13:17.:13:19.

last few years, so the police forces are funded, there is no police force

:13:20.:13:28.

in this country that is at full efficiency. So if we could get the

:13:29.:13:36.

forces to full efficiency, all that time, the police to have the

:13:37.:13:40.

expertise to track down and chase, organised crime, all of these things

:13:41.:13:43.

that are not following traditional policing methods. I very recently

:13:44.:13:49.

was on a visit to one of the units in the north-west, and I tweeted,

:13:50.:13:55.

because I a bit of a fan of Twitter, that I'm going to visit it, and I

:13:56.:14:01.

got criticism from a constituent that I was not in my own

:14:02.:14:04.

constituency and I was visiting a place in the north-west, and when I

:14:05.:14:07.

got there, they were showing me a case that they were working on that

:14:08.:14:10.

involve my part of the world, but it was online work that these police

:14:11.:14:16.

officers were working on, not up working the streets but on a

:14:17.:14:19.

computer tracking down child sexual abuse cases. The expertise that we

:14:20.:14:25.

need is changing, and I very much support the point that Theresa May

:14:26.:14:30.

made as Home Secretary which is that I trust the police to run policing.

:14:31.:14:35.

The NPC C and police constables working with their PC sees are the

:14:36.:14:40.

experts who know how to spend the money in the way that they need to

:14:41.:14:44.

spend it. Tom Winsor is the last person I would want to miss quote,

:14:45.:14:48.

but he did raise a significant red flag a few months ago in his State

:14:49.:14:52.

of policing report where he has always been somebody who talks about

:14:53.:14:58.

efficiency and the ability, the room for more efficiency, but even he is

:14:59.:15:03.

saying that he is quite concerned that police forces can't cope any

:15:04.:15:06.

more. I have been clear about this. I have spoken to Tom Winsor directly

:15:07.:15:11.

about this, and he made it very clear, that publication was

:15:12.:15:15.

misrepresented. I am happy to put this on the record so he can back me

:15:16.:15:21.

up, there is no police force that has found full efficiency, and his

:15:22.:15:24.

comment about how the police are spending the money they have got

:15:25.:15:28.

rather than how much they have got. And did he not also say that he was

:15:29.:15:32.

very concerned about the death of community policing in that report?

:15:33.:15:35.

And what he is referring to is how some police forces do their

:15:36.:15:40.

neighbourhood policing, not the finances they have to do with it.

:15:41.:15:43.

Going back to the issue of the spike in knife crime, the primer still was

:15:44.:15:47.

very keen when she was Home Secretary to have curbs in stop and

:15:48.:15:50.

search, when you talk to police officers they have very real

:15:51.:15:53.

concerns that part of the spike in knife crime is due to what they see

:15:54.:15:59.

as an inability to carry out stop and search, and there isn't

:16:00.:16:03.

necessarily empirical evidence to all of this, but it is felt on the

:16:04.:16:07.

street, and in certain communities, such as Hackney, people are calling

:16:08.:16:10.

for more stop and search to stop the issue, and I wonder if we will see a

:16:11.:16:14.

softening on that particular police tactic? There is obviously an issue

:16:15.:16:27.

where we need to look at what is creating that spike, whether it is a

:16:28.:16:30.

spike or where there is momentum there. What Theresa May did, we've

:16:31.:16:40.

got to make sure we've got police service that is representative of

:16:41.:16:42.

its community and that we do not have a situation where stop and

:16:43.:16:46.

search can be abused. The police need to be aware and use it

:16:47.:16:51.

appropriately, and if they are aware, they should use it

:16:52.:16:57.

appropriately. It is absolutely essential that the police focused

:16:58.:17:01.

the tactic of stop and search on the minerals. In order to do that, they

:17:02.:17:06.

need the intelligence from the community. These people who are

:17:07.:17:12.

carrying knives, certainly the hard of those people, carry it around to

:17:13.:17:16.

increase their status on the streets, they use their knives, they

:17:17.:17:20.

threaten people with it, the community know who these people are,

:17:21.:17:26.

they don't have enough trust and confidence so they can

:17:27.:17:28.

confidentially pass that information on to the police so the lease can

:17:29.:17:32.

effectively target stop and search on those criminals. I was the police

:17:33.:17:38.

commander who had Brixton under my command. You had said duration is

:17:39.:17:46.

where Bob Ariz just happened and the police put out a description, an

:17:47.:17:51.

18-year-old wearing a hooding and trainers, which covered half the

:17:52.:17:54.

population of Britain at that time, we need to get far more intelligent

:17:55.:17:58.

about where, did they have an earring, did they have a nose ring,

:17:59.:18:02.

what trousers were they wearing? They might jackets but they won't

:18:03.:18:09.

swap trousers because it is too embarrassing to do it imply big --

:18:10.:18:14.

in public. What trainers did they have on? Because they want swap

:18:15.:18:20.

trainers. You have to get more intelligence about this and increase

:18:21.:18:25.

it -- it's perfect goodness. There was a move to increase them broad

:18:26.:18:31.

base of people that come into the police service and some people have

:18:32.:18:34.

talked about increasing the amount of academically trained people to

:18:35.:18:38.

become police officers and that will result, they are consulting on it at

:18:39.:18:44.

the moment, in the nation to parachuting people in without police

:18:45.:18:49.

X areas who would essentially become police constables. It is not usually

:18:50.:18:54.

popular in the police service. Just on the question of stop and search,

:18:55.:19:00.

the Labour Party supports evidence -based stop and search. If there is

:19:01.:19:05.

an evidence base for it, of course we supported. But nothing has caused

:19:06.:19:08.

more tensions between the police and the community than random,

:19:09.:19:14.

non-evidence -based stop and searches which actually didn't pick

:19:15.:19:20.

up... It picked up a relatively tiny number of infringements of the law.

:19:21.:19:25.

Evidence -based stop and search is one thing, random stop and searches

:19:26.:19:31.

another. On the issue of police recruitment, we are facing a very

:19:32.:19:37.

different world, in racing -- invitation to police and

:19:38.:19:40.

counterterrorism, and maybe we need to look again at the recruitment of

:19:41.:19:45.

police. But what I would say any steps that are taken to, for

:19:46.:19:51.

instance, bring people indirectly without having been on the beat, any

:19:52.:19:59.

steps taken should only be taken in consultation with the Police

:20:00.:20:01.

Federation and other organisations that represent the police. Published

:20:02.:20:07.

people would learn from history. We had a system decades ago which was

:20:08.:20:15.

quickly abandoned because it did not work, in terms of leadership in the

:20:16.:20:20.

police service. I have a situation when I was a chief inspector of

:20:21.:20:23.

Prisons to wait two officers had life changing injuries, they were

:20:24.:20:28.

shot by an escaped prisoner. We got a health nurse in to do a debrief

:20:29.:20:34.

with the officers, she was shouted out of the room because the officer

:20:35.:20:38.

said, you have no idea what the dangers are that we face on the

:20:39.:20:43.

street, you don't know how we feel, how can you come here and empathise

:20:44.:20:48.

with us? What is a Chief Constable who has never walked the heat, who

:20:49.:20:52.

has never X earrings to the things working in all weathers, in all

:20:53.:20:57.

hours, how was that Chief Constable going to relate to their officers?

:20:58.:21:03.

Of course, if we are getting into far more technical crimes, whether

:21:04.:21:07.

online fraud, which can be very complex, we should bring in experts

:21:08.:21:12.

to help officers to do that. But there is a complete ignoring of the

:21:13.:21:17.

police culture. There is a huge divide, even more than in industry,

:21:18.:21:24.

between workers and managers in the police service because the workers

:21:25.:21:27.

are out there facing danger in all weathers, they and night, and

:21:28.:21:32.

managers are in air-conditioned offices doing mainly nine to five.

:21:33.:21:37.

To increase their divide by bringing in people at the top who have no

:21:38.:21:43.

experience of policing at all is to ignore the very important culture in

:21:44.:21:47.

the police service. Is the concern from your department that there is

:21:48.:21:51.

not enough professionalism in policing? Where is this move coming

:21:52.:22:01.

from? The London Metropolitan Police started the scheme of police

:22:02.:22:05.

constables which has been phenomenally successful, that

:22:06.:22:10.

started from police officers in the Met police. And the Met police is

:22:11.:22:15.

one of the best organisations that has diversify it -- diversify to. At

:22:16.:22:24.

the higher levels, we have been very clear that we do want to see more

:22:25.:22:30.

professionalisation. One is around professionalisation of the police,

:22:31.:22:38.

we wanted to be sector led, which is the right way to do do it. Also, it

:22:39.:22:45.

is giving the police ability to recognise their skills and powers if

:22:46.:22:48.

they choose to leave the police later in their careers and go

:22:49.:22:54.

outside. We left at the moment in this country, you look around at

:22:55.:23:00.

certain senior officers, Ian Hopkins in Manchester being an obvious one,

:23:01.:23:05.

we've got some superb leaders around this treat, and I want the police to

:23:06.:23:12.

continue to have the best of the rest, operationally and

:23:13.:23:15.

organisationally. I think it is the right time to look at what we do as

:23:16.:23:22.

we move forward, around how we continue to move forward, to make

:23:23.:23:25.

sure it does have the best people in it, people and powered who can come

:23:26.:23:33.

into benefit the police. If you look at what the Met police have outlined

:23:34.:23:41.

this week, they make sure they do have a training programme and that

:23:42.:23:45.

they do get spray rinse of being the police of this on the street. We are

:23:46.:23:48.

looking at a big organisation, we have management issues, to do with

:23:49.:24:01.

logistics. We've just heard from Brian, first-hand experience with

:24:02.:24:05.

great insight but the kind of cultural tensions that result when

:24:06.:24:10.

you bring people into an organisation when they haven't gone

:24:11.:24:14.

through the ranks. I found it very dispiriting when the operational

:24:15.:24:20.

commander on the day of the domain is shooting, if you told me she was

:24:21.:24:24.

going to be the Met Commissioner today, I would have said there

:24:25.:24:30.

wasn't a cat in hell's chance. We had quite a few resolutions

:24:31.:24:36.

imploring the force to learn the lessons of that day, but how was it

:24:37.:24:40.

a lesson to promote someone to that degree when they were instrumental

:24:41.:24:44.

in what happened on the day in terms of an innocent person being shot in

:24:45.:24:50.

the Stockwell underground. I'm not one to defend... Diane, you are here

:24:51.:24:56.

to defend things you have said in the past but one of the things you

:24:57.:25:01.

said about institutionalised racialism, I think that holds, that

:25:02.:25:05.

is not something we can deny. We need people at the top of the police

:25:06.:25:09.

force who are already working there who need to find a pathway to

:25:10.:25:13.

promotion. We have heard that people feel they are locked because there

:25:14.:25:20.

are peaks there. We need to seem there are people on the recruitment

:25:21.:25:24.

panels who are sufficiently diverse so that we can avoid that

:25:25.:25:30.

unconscious bias. The sure, we can improve the confidence in policing.

:25:31.:25:36.

I'd do get stopped unfortunately and I think I hold an argument with

:25:37.:25:40.

police officers. I was coming through the Eurostar not so long ago

:25:41.:25:45.

and I was apprehended by six immigration officers and two police

:25:46.:25:50.

officers, would you like to see things? I said you've got no good

:25:51.:25:55.

grounds or give me good justification other than the one of

:25:56.:26:03.

racist bias to profiling, and I won three. I think all of those

:26:04.:26:08.

individuals who are less argued to able to argue their case and we've

:26:09.:26:14.

got to avoid race-based stop and search and profiling. I've really

:26:15.:26:21.

have to challenge, I'm afraid, the comments you have made about

:26:22.:26:26.

Cressida Dick. Cressida Dick, Doug policy that she had to work with

:26:27.:26:33.

which I was trained in at the time, to be a senior designated officer to

:26:34.:26:39.

ask officers to go and shoot a suicide bomber was defective. There

:26:40.:26:46.

was a whole series of areas in the course of that particular operation

:26:47.:26:54.

which... Can I come back on that. You have questioned whether or not

:26:55.:26:58.

Cressida Dick should be Commissioner of the Met and I think you are being

:26:59.:27:05.

and feta her, bearing in mind the cards that she was dealt on that

:27:06.:27:09.

day. She didn't mean stop to shoot to kill. We are a long way down the

:27:10.:27:18.

line, I'm going to have to wrap things up shortly and I will be in

:27:19.:27:23.

trouble because I didn't even get to cyber security. A very sizzling

:27:24.:27:27.

answer from you, have we dropped the ball on cyber security? Nope we'll

:27:28.:27:36.

have a duty, as individuals, organisations, to be aware of what

:27:37.:27:40.

we can do to protect ourselves. But there are literally hundreds of

:27:41.:27:44.

countries, mass organisations that were affected, but we do need to be

:27:45.:27:48.

clear, cyber crime is changing and shifting. 80% of all cyber crime can

:27:49.:27:53.

be avoided we keep our own software up-to-date. Diane. Yes, we have

:27:54.:28:02.

dropped the ball. It is one thing to talk about our individual

:28:03.:28:04.

responsibilities, it is another thing to do but the government

:28:05.:28:09.

responsibilities to institutions as big and vulnerable as the NHS. There

:28:10.:28:15.

are some evidence that there were resource restraints, why be NHS as

:28:16.:28:20.

an institution did not take the steps, did not take the steps to

:28:21.:28:27.

protect itself from the disastrous cyber crime that it begs a bit. We

:28:28.:28:33.

have seen a whole series of failed IT projects. If the equipment and

:28:34.:28:38.

the infrastructure isn't fit for purpose, it needs to be dealt with,

:28:39.:28:41.

preferably not through subcontracting but having top

:28:42.:28:45.

in-house capability that is properly financed. It will be difficult with

:28:46.:28:50.

increased Margie to keep track of it, not terms of meta data and civil

:28:51.:28:58.

libertarian concern is, but in terms of keeping track of the technologies

:28:59.:29:04.

that we do use, in terms of encryption software, if that falls

:29:05.:29:08.

into the wrong hands, if you blah leaving briefcases and trains, we

:29:09.:29:12.

need to make sure we have the mechanism to deal with that. The

:29:13.:29:18.

police service equipped to deal with such a complex issue? There is part

:29:19.:29:24.

of GCHQ that has a responsible T to ensure that people like the NHS are

:29:25.:29:31.

protected. The dilemma is the story was that the American security

:29:32.:29:37.

services saw a vulnerability in the operating software, captain to

:29:38.:29:41.

themselves because they wanted to exploit it in terms of keeping

:29:42.:29:45.

surveillance on people, and that information escaped into the public

:29:46.:29:50.

domain and that was used by criminals. Of course the security

:29:51.:29:55.

services has to be able to exploit weaknesses in operating systems but

:29:56.:29:58.

if they decide to do that, they should also develop an antidote, if

:29:59.:30:03.

you like to that folder ability so that if it into the wrong hands,

:30:04.:30:08.

they need to patch that problem. And that will allow the security

:30:09.:30:12.

services have reached they need in order to combat terrorism and it

:30:13.:30:18.

keeps our public infrastructure, the NHS, safe from cyber attack. That is

:30:19.:30:26.

all we have got time for. Thank you to all the panellists.

:30:27.:30:31.

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