Browse content similar to Home Affairs. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Subtitles will begin at three o'clock. | :15:27. | :30:42. | |
I just want to come back, Lord Carlile is everybody knows was the | :30:43. | :30:53. | |
former independent reviewer of terrorism, and the question I would | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
have is, Alex quite rightly said, where is the evidence. The answer is | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
there might be some evidence in the internal review that the Home Office | :31:03. | :31:06. | |
did, but they refused to share that with anybody. They will not do an | :31:07. | :31:12. | |
independent review. So we don't know what the evidence is, other than to | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
say there are elements within the Muslim community who are very | :31:18. | :31:24. | |
concerned about Prevent, who are very suspicious about it, and this | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
apparent reluctance to review it is adding to that issue. At the end of | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
the day, it doesn't matter how small that part of the Muslim community is | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
that is suspicious of Prevent, because it is probably in those | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
parts of that community where it is essential that there is trust and | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
confidence that the intelligence comes forward. In other areas of the | :31:47. | :31:52. | |
Muslim community who are very supportive of the police and | :31:53. | :31:55. | |
security services, you are not likely to have people being | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
radicalised. It is in exactly those places where the most suspicion is | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
that the most vital intelligence is going to come forward, and therefore | :32:04. | :32:06. | |
it is essential that that part of the Muslim community has trust and | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
confidence in whatever replaces Prevent. If I can just pick on | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
something that Brandon said in his opening address, Prevent is but one | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
part of the security picture, and it is interesting that the Conservative | :32:21. | :32:23. | |
manifesto talks about bringing in new terrorism powers in the wake of | :32:24. | :32:30. | |
Manchester, looking at new ways to tackle extremism, but there was a | :32:31. | :32:37. | |
counter extremism built a few years ago that never got legs, and there | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
seems to be some disagreement on how to tackle extremism and how to | :32:41. | :32:53. | |
define it. So I just wondered, Max Hale who is Alex's successor made | :32:54. | :32:59. | |
this point the other day that perhaps we don't need to have new | :33:00. | :33:02. | |
laws, we should just use the ones that we have. A couple of points | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
there, one is what we have said, we will look at and do what is | :33:08. | :33:10. | |
necessary to keep the country safe, and that is working with our police | :33:11. | :33:16. | |
and security services to work with what is important at one time. One | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
is that if you look at the orders for example you have just mentioned, | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
they are one of the tools that the services have at their disposal, | :33:26. | :33:34. | |
there are others. But if there is a clear issue, stopping them | :33:35. | :33:36. | |
permanently is a different tool, that is something we can do as well, | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
so it is just one of the tools that the services have to look at what is | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
appropriate. But equally, one of the challenges and one of the things we | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
have got to be very clear about with any legislation about this is one of | :33:50. | :33:52. | |
the areas where it comes back to the point made a short while ago, which | :33:53. | :33:58. | |
is around how people are being radicalised and where they are being | :33:59. | :34:01. | |
radicalised, and one of the challenges now is that a lot of that | :34:02. | :34:04. | |
can be happening online, and the challenges online and the speed with | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
which the online community is moving is that as quickly as you can | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
legislate, bearing in mind the time frame it takes to legislate, the | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
technology and the way they are spreading information can move on, | :34:16. | :34:18. | |
so it is better to look at other tools and other service providers | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
are getting down, and another thing Prevent has done is taken 270,000 | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
websites down that have been spreading radicalisation, but there | :34:28. | :34:30. | |
is always more to do because this is a fast-moving area. Diane, you | :34:31. | :34:36. | |
wanted to talk about that? I wanted to say that one of the ways people | :34:37. | :34:38. | |
can also be radicalised is in prison. Not necessarily with the man | :34:39. | :34:49. | |
who had the suicide bomb in Manchester, but there is a pattern | :34:50. | :34:58. | |
with jihadis, and I think Prevent should be more proactive in prisons. | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
I think it is difficult in the climate of trust at the witches | :35:03. | :35:10. | |
about keeping in mum -- which is about keeping imams and so on | :35:11. | :35:18. | |
separate from other prisoners, but I think there is more to be done in | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
prisons about not having people radicalised. This idea that concerns | :35:23. | :35:28. | |
about Prevent are ill informed conjecture from the Muslim | :35:29. | :35:30. | |
community, if it is just ill informed conjecture, why is it that | :35:31. | :35:40. | |
the independent review, the Home Affairs Select Committee looked at | :35:41. | :35:43. | |
this thoroughly and called from review, and why would the joint | :35:44. | :35:46. | |
committee on human rights call for a review. It is more than conjecture | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
in the Muslim community. Independent stakeholders have said no room for | :35:51. | :35:59. | |
complacency, we have to work. I interested give any previous views | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
on security services and special Branch, were you to be elected in | :36:04. | :36:05. | |
government and become Home Secretary, how would you get that | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
balance back? How would you work with them to try to work through | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
these issues? I don't know what you are saying about my previous views. | :36:15. | :36:21. | |
You wanted to have them abolished. That was some time ago. MI5 at that | :36:22. | :36:30. | |
time needed reforming, and it has now been reformed, and so a Labour | :36:31. | :36:36. | |
government would support MI5. I think it is a question of having the | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
proper legal oversight. With all of these issues, in the end of you have | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
the proper illegal oversight, you can have a service that both works | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
for the British people, helps keep the British people safe but doesn't | :36:50. | :36:57. | |
overstep the mark in terms of civil liberties. I have to say, as part of | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
the debates around the investigatory Powers act, I had the privilege to | :37:02. | :37:08. | |
go to Vauxhall Cross and GCHQ and talk directly to the security | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
services. I was absolutely amazed at what it is possible to do, they do | :37:14. | :37:20. | |
an incredible job. But, and I think the investigatory Powers act is a | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
step forward in terms of accountability, independent | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
assessment of the risks and whether or not granting a warrant is | :37:30. | :37:32. | |
justified. I think there is a lot of good in it, there are parts of it we | :37:33. | :37:35. | |
disagree with fundamentally, but generally speaking it is a step in | :37:36. | :37:41. | |
the right direction, but temporary extrusion orders are key to | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
understanding what happened in Manchester. We now know that this | :37:46. | :37:51. | |
guy went to Libya, potentially went to Syria, and then came back to the | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
UK. There has been a power on the statute book for two years for these | :37:56. | :38:02. | |
people who have been and involved in terrorism abroad to be prevented | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
from coming back into the UK unless and until they agree to undergo a | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
Die Roten -- a de Waard deradicalisation programme. I think | :38:12. | :38:31. | |
it hasn't been used that often, it wasn't used in this case. We have to | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
look at how the existing powers are being used, how effectively are they | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
being used. The calls to the anti-terrorist hotline, it is the | :38:42. | :38:43. | |
Met to manage the hotline and they said they had no record of any | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
calls. But that just goes to the point, did those people speak to | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
Greater Manchester Police, they thought it was anti-terrorism, maybe | :38:54. | :38:58. | |
it was something else. But I think we have the right level of powers | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
for the security services, and in fact the thing that we disagree with | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
in the investigatory Powers act, which is Internet connection | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
records, effectively a year's worth of your web history being recorded | :39:12. | :39:19. | |
by your Internet services provider in case the police and security | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
services want to look at it is going too far. It is an intrusion into | :39:25. | :39:30. | |
peoples privacy, and it is creating a vast amount of data which could | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
easily be hacked into by criminals or foreign hostile countries. And in | :39:35. | :39:41. | |
any event, at those briefings that I attended, the security services said | :39:42. | :39:43. | |
they did not need Internet connection records to be stored by | :39:44. | :39:50. | |
those Internet companies in order to keep this country safe from | :39:51. | :39:56. | |
terrorism. In which case, how on earth can we justify this massive | :39:57. | :40:02. | |
intrusion into people's privacy if the very people that it is intended | :40:03. | :40:05. | |
to help are saying it is not necessary in order to prevent | :40:06. | :40:12. | |
terrorism. The issue of the IP bill takes us into more general issues of | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
policing beyond security, because of course chief constables will | :40:17. | :40:19. | |
invariably talk about Internet connection records and the | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
requirements under the IP bill in terms of a much wider range of | :40:26. | :40:28. | |
powers, and investigations including missing people, and that is missing | :40:29. | :40:33. | |
people actually makes of a massive chunk of that area, and this brings | :40:34. | :40:39. | |
us into the issue about social media companies, the debate about free | :40:40. | :40:42. | |
speech and where that balance lies, so perhaps we can get some views | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
from the panel on those kind of issues. While I am on a roll, we | :40:46. | :40:51. | |
have looked at this in connection with online pornography. We clearly | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
want to protect young people from accessing Internet pornography. And | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
the measures that the Government put forward on this, bearing in mind | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
that certainly the most popular pawn sites are in the United States of | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
America, the two provisions in the Bill were to levy a fine on those | :41:12. | :41:22. | |
companies, and the next was to block access to those websites, and the | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
people who were going to be doing this, the independent body who were | :41:27. | :41:29. | |
going to be doing this said that that first provision was | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
unenforceable, and that is the problem with these big social media | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
companies, whether you are talking about encrypting communication, or | :41:38. | :41:44. | |
Facebook or other sites which post terrorist material, this can only be | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
done in close corporation with the American government. It can only be | :41:50. | :41:55. | |
done on an almost voluntary basis, by putting pressure on rather than | :41:56. | :41:58. | |
legislating against these big American tech companies. You are not | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
going to, and so we have looked at it, we have explored it, we have | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
come to the conclusion it is not possible. So for the Conservative | :42:09. | :42:12. | |
Party to say that they are going to legislate to not allow WhatsApp to | :42:13. | :42:17. | |
have end-to-end encryption, to order Facebook to take down terrorist | :42:18. | :42:24. | |
material, it is not practical to do so. We need to look at other ways of | :42:25. | :42:30. | |
tackling these issues. I will pick up on a couple of bits. I find it | :42:31. | :42:40. | |
slightly worrying that Ayane -- Diane is talking about things as | :42:41. | :42:42. | |
Home Office policy that is not Home Office at all, prisons is the | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
Ministry of Justice, and you should know that. That is because when I | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
worked at the Home Office, it did cover prisons, and I think we should | :42:52. | :42:54. | |
work more closely with them. You need to think about what the Home | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
Office does now. But at the same time, you are talking about a policy | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
happening that the emoji a is actually doing, which is great if | :43:04. | :43:10. | |
you support it, but it would be nice if you would understand it as well. | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
We are not suggesting to do that at all, and I do agree with it on two | :43:15. | :43:22. | |
levels. The security services do do an amazing job, and what they do is | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
quite phenomenal, we really do have amongst the best in the world, but I | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
do agree that one of the challenges we have with the Internet companies, | :43:31. | :43:33. | |
it comes back to appoint to have made a couple of times, one is the | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
pace at which technology moves is so fast that legislation cannot | :43:38. | :43:40. | |
necessarily keep up, just the process of legislation, by the time | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
you have done that, they have changed the terminology. And the way | :43:45. | :43:49. | |
they encrypt means it doesn't work that well, and that is why the Home | :43:50. | :43:52. | |
Secretary has just a few weeks ago had these companies in to work with | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
them. It is in their interest as well, and it is not just about the | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
big companies, it is small start-up companies, all over the world one or | :44:01. | :44:03. | |
two people who don't necessarily realise that the platform they are | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
creating can be a hiding place for people in organised crime or | :44:08. | :44:10. | |
terrorism, and these big companies, working with them to help the | :44:11. | :44:13. | |
smaller companies understand what they are doing so we do not have | :44:14. | :44:17. | |
safe havens created the terrorists and people in organised crime who | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
can prey on young people, older people, whoever they are. Rob | :44:23. | :44:25. | |
Wainwright at Europol makes a point we should think about. Whether it is | :44:26. | :44:31. | |
transport, global communications, telecommunications, we can intercept | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
and interrupt those with democratic accountability, and we have to work | :44:37. | :44:39. | |
with the Internet companies to make sure we can keep their customers | :44:40. | :44:42. | |
safe and they play an important part in that, it is right for them and | :44:43. | :44:49. | |
the customers, and it is not right to allow terrorists and organised | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
crime is to have a safe haven. Isn't a safe haven. Security services have | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
ways of getting the information. A lot of it is around directed | :44:58. | :45:03. | |
equipment interference. If you use equipment interference, you can see | :45:04. | :45:06. | |
exactly what is on the phone or computer screen at either end, and | :45:07. | :45:10. | |
end-to-end encryption is no longer an issue. Some of this with the | :45:11. | :45:17. | |
technology companies might come down to philosophy. The leaks in relation | :45:18. | :45:20. | |
to US intelligence that we saw in relation to the Manchester bombing | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
clearly showed a very different approach in the US to Britain, and | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
I'm just wondering, have they got the balance right, do you believe, | :45:32. | :45:34. | |
about freedom of speech and the right to have discussions privately | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
versus the security services, the intelligence agencies and the police | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
to be able to gather the information that they need? I seem to recall | :45:44. | :45:48. | |
about five minutes ago you asked me a question, and I didn't get a | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
chance to answer it yet. Just to backtrack a little bit if I may. The | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
second chamber was quite instrumental in making some | :45:57. | :45:59. | |
improvements to the investigative Powers Bill, unfortunately it | :46:00. | :46:05. | |
doesn't go far enough from our point of view, and we have to consider | :46:06. | :46:10. | |
what is the level of public consent and intrusion which is being | :46:11. | :46:13. | |
propagated now in terms of meta data, even though it might not have | :46:14. | :46:16. | |
your name on it it is sufficient in terms of what activities you are | :46:17. | :46:24. | |
engaging in, and you might say, I have nothing to hide, therefore I | :46:25. | :46:27. | |
have nothing to fear, but I think our societies are bigger than that | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
in terms of you might say a right to privacy extending on to how you can | :46:34. | :46:40. | |
speak and use social media. Don't we want to be rather more cautious | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
before we engage in those kind of intrusions as the EU court of | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
justice themselves warned last December, that it was contravening | :46:50. | :46:51. | |
our basic rights to privacy. Services Institute for when we | :46:52. | :47:01. | |
potentially go in to increasing encroachments of Civil Liberties | :47:02. | :47:07. | |
under the pretext or reasonable justification of security that we | :47:08. | :47:09. | |
end up in the quantity we wanted to avoid which is that we change out of | :47:10. | :47:18. | |
every change -- way of life. It is Franklin's quip that those who would | :47:19. | :47:27. | |
sacrifice liberty and the deal idea of security risk or even deserve to | :47:28. | :47:30. | |
lose both, and we wouldn't want to get into that sit duration. We need | :47:31. | :47:41. | |
to launch a digital bill, a civilian led digital bill of rights whether | :47:42. | :47:47. | |
people who are affected are these decisions themselves have a far | :47:48. | :47:50. | |
greater say in what is going gone. It is all well and good for the two | :47:51. | :47:54. | |
chambers to get together and produce the IP bill but I don't feel there | :47:55. | :47:56. | |
was sufficient public rate or consent with respect to those | :47:57. | :48:04. | |
intrusions. We've been waiting for quite some time for a government | :48:05. | :48:07. | |
digital ill so a citizen of one might take some time. Before I move | :48:08. | :48:13. | |
on, I would like to take some questions from the floor. Is there a | :48:14. | :48:33. | |
microphone? Diane, when we look at you and your leaders' record, and a | :48:34. | :48:43. | |
counterterrorism legislation in Parliament, some people are worried | :48:44. | :48:46. | |
that if you get into Downing Street next week that this country may yet | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
be exposed to a most brutal terrorist attack as did France under | :48:52. | :48:57. | |
a socialist government over the past five years. What do you have to say | :48:58. | :49:04. | |
to them? I would say that it is certainly the case that in a long | :49:05. | :49:10. | |
parliamentary career, Jeremy has voted against a number of pieces of | :49:11. | :49:16. | |
counterterrorism legislation, not all of them. But what you have to | :49:17. | :49:25. | |
remember is that on many of those occasions, Labour MPs marched | :49:26. | :49:32. | |
through the lobbies with Tory MPs. Theresa May herself voted against | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
the prevention of terrorism act in 2005. She voted against patrol | :49:37. | :49:44. | |
orders. She voted against ID cards and David Davis, who is now Brexit | :49:45. | :49:50. | |
Secretary, we marched through lobbies with him. The issue was not | :49:51. | :49:56. | |
that David Davies Theresa May was soft on terrorism, the issue was | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
that we felt that some of this counterterrorism legislation was in | :50:01. | :50:06. | |
fact counter-productive. On the question of detention without trial, | :50:07. | :50:12. | |
which was defeated, ultimately, we could see from the Northern Ireland | :50:13. | :50:17. | |
experience that unlimited internment can be wholly counter-productive. If | :50:18. | :50:23. | |
you were going to say that Jeremy and I are soft on terrorism because | :50:24. | :50:30. | |
we voted against some aspects of counterterrorism legislation, then | :50:31. | :50:34. | |
you also have to say the same thing about the conservatives who voted in | :50:35. | :50:38. | |
the same way. Just to get back to what the minister said about prison, | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
you will not have an effective counterterrorism strategy if we | :50:43. | :50:49. | |
operate in silence. I mention prisons for a reason. There is | :50:50. | :50:53. | |
concern in communities how men are going into prison with no background | :50:54. | :50:59. | |
in the Muslim community and coming out radicalised. I know you have a | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
strategy, I just don't think the strategy is good enough. We need to | :51:05. | :51:06. | |
target and highlight and support people who are at risk of | :51:07. | :51:12. | |
radicalisation imprisoned. Dismissing this issue by saying the | :51:13. | :51:14. | |
prison Department is freed from the Home Office tends to make me think | :51:15. | :51:20. | |
you'd ink you can have a counterterrorism strategy which | :51:21. | :51:22. | |
operates in silence, and that will not meet the modern challenge. | :51:23. | :51:28. | |
Again, you are missing the second part of what I said. We are doing it | :51:29. | :51:35. | |
at the moment. The question misses the entire point about what people | :51:36. | :51:39. | |
are concerned about. It is not just about weather has been a couple of | :51:40. | :51:48. | |
pieces of legislation. Jeremy has made for 45 years, against all | :51:49. | :51:56. | |
interventions. For 35 years. Welcoming terrorists first tea. That | :51:57. | :52:05. | |
is not somebody who anyone can be trusted with anti-terrorism laws. On | :52:06. | :52:11. | |
the other hand, not a week goes past where a Labour peer stands up and | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
demands the introduction of ID cards. 90% of... Labour are all over | :52:17. | :52:28. | |
the place, as far as Civil Liberties and terrorism is concerned. Jeremy | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
Corbyn apparently now is in favour of Trident soap Widnes knows what | :52:33. | :52:38. | |
his attitude is towards the security services now. -- so goodness knows. | :52:39. | :52:51. | |
A follow-up question? Journalist from the sun. A question from the | :52:52. | :52:59. | |
home set -- for Diane Abbott. You said the Home Office is | :53:00. | :53:02. | |
fundamentally racist organisation, you said everything to for the art | :53:03. | :53:10. | |
-- victory for the IRA was a victory for us all and now you are asking | :53:11. | :53:16. | |
for -- to be the boss of the Home Office. If you want to be their | :53:17. | :53:25. | |
boss, is now time to say sorry? It is now time to have a debate about | :53:26. | :53:34. | |
home affairs, which is free from tit-for-tat. I have... 34 use ago, I | :53:35. | :53:44. | |
have spoken about these issues, but I have also, as a constituency MP, | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
worked at the grass roots with my police officers on issues of crime | :53:49. | :53:55. | |
and terrorism. And I am very well aware of people's and sermons on | :53:56. | :54:02. | |
these issues and if the best you can do is retrieve quotes from long ago, | :54:03. | :54:09. | |
you will have to have a better narrative than that, if you are | :54:10. | :54:14. | |
going to persuade the judge people that diverse communities and the | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
Labour Party itself should not be involved in these debates. If you | :54:20. | :54:30. | |
ask police officers now, which leader of which political party do | :54:31. | :54:33. | |
they see as their enemy, they will say it is Theresa May, not Jeremy | :54:34. | :54:44. | |
Corbyn. One more question. After the aftermath of the attacks in | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
Manchester and Westminster, how you deal with this spike in hate crime, | :54:49. | :54:55. | |
a 50% rise, which we haven't talked about at all, which is a deep | :54:56. | :54:59. | |
concern to the Muslim community? This is a thing which needs to be | :55:00. | :55:04. | |
dealt with with great sensitivity and figure. How do you go forward? I | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
would like to hear from the Minister and Diane in particular on what | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
their views are. I have been very clear about this. I was after we saw | :55:14. | :55:19. | |
a spike after the vote last year. I made this point with fellow | :55:20. | :55:22. | |
ministers in Brussels. Any hate crime of any type is completely an | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
acceptable and we all have a part to play in making sure we are very | :55:28. | :55:32. | |
clear about that. We have some of the toughest laws in the world | :55:33. | :55:35. | |
around this and we have to make sure we work with communities to ensure | :55:36. | :55:39. | |
people are clear how an acceptable that is. It is important that they | :55:40. | :55:45. | |
led by and are working with those communities. The spike in hate crime | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
is very concerning an dipped substantially concerns the Muslim | :55:51. | :55:57. | |
community. We had a large Hasidic Jewish community in the country and | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
they too have experienced a rise in hate crime since the Brexit vote. In | :56:02. | :56:08. | |
Hackney. Their figures, for the amount of hate crime they are | :56:09. | :56:11. | |
experiencing, is actually higher than the Metropolitan Police's | :56:12. | :56:18. | |
official figures. I think that when it comes to hate crime, all of us, | :56:19. | :56:22. | |
politicians and journalists, have to be very careful about the rhetoric | :56:23. | :56:29. | |
we use. If we use the rhetoric which takes to the conclusion that certain | :56:30. | :56:32. | |
communities are the enemy within, that does not help to lower the | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
tension. I think there is a policing Di mentioned to combating hate | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
crime, but there is also a dimension about the narrative that politicians | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
and journalists and commentators use. My communities in Hackney, they | :56:48. | :56:57. | |
are very frightened by this rise in hate crime. They are worried that | :56:58. | :57:00. | |
politicians are not doing all they can to have a more temperate | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
discussion on these issues, including immigration. I agree with | :57:06. | :57:11. | |
Diana on this in terms of the rhetoric that politicians use. I | :57:12. | :57:14. | |
referred in my opening remarks about this phrase that the Conservative | :57:15. | :57:20. | |
government are using about making the UK a hostile place for illegal | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
immigrants. When you have fans driving around telling people to go | :57:25. | :57:27. | |
home, that has an impact on those who are here legally as well as | :57:28. | :57:34. | |
those who are here illegally. We saw a significant increase in hate crime | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
following the Brexit vote. Inappropriate use of words by | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
politicians give permission almost two people to turn their prejudice | :57:43. | :57:48. | |
into discrimination against people. It is interesting that Brendan says | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
all hate crime is an acceptable, but only certain hate crime is actually | :57:54. | :58:00. | |
called an aggravated offence. You can get four times the centres for | :58:01. | :58:06. | |
religious or race hatred than you can against a disabled person. I | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
would challenge that as well. At the bottom line is that yes, we have | :58:11. | :58:17. | |
seen over the last six or seven years of decline, up until recently, | :58:18. | :58:21. | |
in what I would call traditional crime. Online fraud cyber crime is | :58:22. | :58:28. | |
now, according to the latest crime survey, almost 50% of the crime that | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
people experience in this country. But recently we have seen an | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
increase in traditional crime, particularly hate crime and knife | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
crime, and including an increase in homicides. That should be a red | :58:43. | :58:47. | |
light to all the political parties that police cuts have gone too far. | :58:48. | :58:52. | |
We need to turn that around and we need the best in community policing, | :58:53. | :58:58. | |
more visible police officers on the street to reassure minority | :58:59. | :59:01. | |
communities, to deter the racist, and to address head-on this pub | :59:02. | :59:08. | |
which I am very glad you raised. That brings us into the area of | :59:09. | :59:13. | |
policing, we will move on from security and talk about that. I | :59:14. | :59:17. | |
think the terrorism Operation Herne asked week highlighted something | :59:18. | :59:20. | |
that had not gained much traction with the public, the issue of cuts. | :59:21. | :59:28. | |
Once you see Army officers guarding venues and areas of significant | :59:29. | :59:33. | |
interest in London, that brings that to the fore. A researcher here has a | :59:34. | :59:40. | |
rest in that we can start the discussion with. Hi. My question | :59:41. | :59:56. | |
is... I know a good few police officers and former police officers | :59:57. | :00:01. | |
and they have all said to me that the guest disaster that has ever | :00:02. | :00:07. | |
been faced is that Tory government's cuts on the police force. All you | :00:08. | :00:11. | |
have to do is look at the Police Federation response to previous Home | :00:12. | :00:19. | |
Secretary is and there are more than 20,000 cuts. If you count the | :00:20. | :00:24. | |
civilian forces as well it is 30 6000. And there are the defence cuts | :00:25. | :00:34. | |
to the military. It is not fit for purpose, it needs more investing | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
money in it and you are the guys that... Why are you building | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
destroyers that can't operate in warm waters? The aircraft carriers, | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
where are the planes? ... We might focus on the issue of | :00:49. | :00:59. | |
police officers specifically, and given that the Conservatives have | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
overseen the austerities regime that has resulted in a lot of 36,000 | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
officers and staff, and the police are now having further cuts. Can | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
they cope with the lack of manpower, that reduced manpower? That was a | :01:14. | :01:20. | |
prediction, but that is a matter for the commission and the mayor. I have | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
to say, in terms of where we are, I appreciate the point you're making. | :01:27. | :01:29. | |
We can't live in a vacuum of pretending that we didn't have a | :01:30. | :01:35. | |
horrendous economic in 2010, and from 2010 through 2015, we did have | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
to make some very, very difficult decisions that affected a whole | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
range of areas including local government which I was working in | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
for a while and obviously in police where we had to reduce the funding. | :01:46. | :01:52. | |
We inherited a 152 billion deficit, we have it down to just over 50, but | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
there is a long way to go. To pretend there is this magic money | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
tree is fantasyland. In terms of the policing, the counter-terrorism side | :02:03. | :02:08. | |
has been increasing since 2010 and will increase much more through to | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
2020 going forward. On the police itself, we protected the spending | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
going forward, so for example this year there is not a single police | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
force outside of one that should see anything other than a slight | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
increase or an increase overall in their funding. What they use their | :02:29. | :02:36. | |
reserves for, that is a matter for the PCC and the Chief Constable, but | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
they have had money there, they have had surpluses, and how they use that | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
as a matter for them, and that is why you see a number of the PCC is | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
and Chief constables are recruiting police officers, but just to clarify | :02:49. | :02:55. | |
a point, the ONS is including for the second quarter of this cyber | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
crime and fraud being included, which is good because we stuck to | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
get a real picture and understanding of what is happening. But there are | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
two parts, the crime survey on the reporting of recording of crime, and | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
what is very clear is that crime in this country has fallen by a third | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
since 2010, that is a good thing, including violent crime, and that is | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
thanks to the great work the police are doing where they are very | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
focused on getting crime down and reporting and recording is going up | :03:25. | :03:26. | |
because people have more confidence to come forward, not just recording | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
factors have got better and police are getting better at it, the new | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
commission in London at line they have changed their processes again | :03:36. | :03:37. | |
for knife crime to better assess what the spike is, but more people | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
having confidence to come forward as a good thing, but crime is falling | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
and has fallen since 2010, and we have now protected police funding | :03:47. | :03:53. | |
going forward. I will expect Brian will want to pick up on that. The | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
interesting debate about crime rates rising is the difference between the | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
crime survey Ning Ding and Wales and the public's perception of crime, | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
and real ONS statistics which are showing what police constables have | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
described to me which is very disturbing spikes in knife crime and | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
violent crime, and there doesn't seem to be a great amount of ideas | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
about exactly where it is coming from and why it is happening. People | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
point to cuts, there are other factors as well and I don't know | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
whether Brian wants to pick up on some of those issues. The Liberal | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
Democrats were part of the coalition with the Tories that cut police | :04:28. | :04:30. | |
budgets, and I own that, I accept that. And the evidence showed that | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
in terms of what I call traditional crime, not online crime or cyber | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
crime, it wasn't recorded, so we didn't know what was happening to | :04:42. | :04:44. | |
that, but on the face of it, it looked like those cuts were | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
reasonable against the crime picture. Now we have a fuller crime | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
picture. As I said in my opening remarks, the latest crime survey | :04:54. | :04:56. | |
shows almost half of crime that people experience is cyber crime or | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
online fraud which doesn't normally get reported to the police at all. | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
When my Bag card was cloned and used in Bangkok, my bag just pay the | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
money back, I never bothered the police with it, it was never | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
recorded. But the other important thing is, Liberal Democrats know | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
when to stop, and the Conservatives don't. Violent crime is increasing, | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
hate crime is increasing, knife crime is increasing, there is an | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
epidemic of young people dying on the streets of London, and yet the | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
Metropolitan Police, who have had ?800 million cut from their budget | :05:36. | :05:41. | |
are facing another ?200 million cut between now and the end of what | :05:42. | :05:48. | |
would have been if this Parliament had run its full course. That is ?1 | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
billion cuts in policing. And against a trend of an increase in | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
violent crime, that is complete madness. Diane, you have spoken | :05:59. | :06:05. | |
about this issue and concern about policing numbers. Where will the | :06:06. | :06:11. | |
money come from to get extra police officers on the streets, and why is | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
that so important? Let me just touch on something which Brandon said, | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
which is that crime is dropping. I'm surprised you can sit here in the | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
centre of London and sound that complacent, because we know in | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
London, homicides, knife crime and gun crime are rising. What I have | :06:30. | :06:36. | |
said is factually correct. Violent crime is down by nearly 400,000 | :06:37. | :06:44. | |
cases since 2010, so it is correct. Within those overall figures, we in | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
London know, and other metropolitan centres... But don't misrepresent | :06:49. | :06:54. | |
what I said. Within those overall figures we have seen a rise in gun | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
crime, I think it is 42%, and knife crime, 24%, and that is a great | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
concern to people. On the question of the need for more police, it goes | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
back to the discussion we had about counter-terrorism. We want to have | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
10,000 more police officers. We think they have got an important | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
role to play in relation to engaging with communities and being a conduit | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
for information and conduct and working with communities, and what | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
you have to remember about the police is the role of the police and | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
the pressures on the police are changing. If you look at the figures | :07:29. | :07:34. | |
and show the amount of time that police officers spend on what you | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
might call thief taking has dropped. A lot of their time now is spent on | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
issues arising from Tory cuts and more broadly in local government. It | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
is dealing with mental health issues, dealing with domestic | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
violence. With the cuts in local authorities and the NHS, in many | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
cases, the police have become the public sector service of last | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
resort, and that puts them under pressure. So we think there should | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
be more police. We are conscious as Brandon has conceded that we have | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
20,000 fewer police officers then we had in 2010 when Theresa May's watch | :08:13. | :08:19. | |
started. We want to start to remedy that with 10,000 more, and we will | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
pay for it as we have said by reversing the Tory cuts in capital | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
gains tax which will raise 2.75 billion. My understanding is that | :08:29. | :08:41. | |
you won't be spending 300 million until 2020/2021, and they did | :08:42. | :08:43. | |
include the first year training costs and equipment costs which add | :08:44. | :08:50. | |
an extra 20,000 on to the ?30,000 pay bill, and therefore | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
unfortunately, not only are you promising 10,000 officers only in | :08:55. | :08:57. | |
the last year of the Parliament and not before, but also that you do not | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
have enough money in the budget to actually train and equip them. We | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
are planning to recruit... You will know better than I, you can't | :09:08. | :09:10. | |
recruit 10,000 officers in 12 months. We are saying that over a | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
period for five years, we will have recruited 10,000 further officers. | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
That is exactly what I have just said, yes. But what I am saying to | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
you, what I reminded you of is that we will be finding the money to pay | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
for those officers, and any related costs, from the 2.75 billion. We are | :09:29. | :09:39. | |
putting 1.2 billion into this, and Labour are putting 771 million over | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
the course of the next Parliament. You already had a chance to have a | :09:46. | :09:52. | |
go at each other last night! For me, the Greens, politics is about | :09:53. | :09:55. | |
priorities, and if you want to pave your public services, and arguably | :09:56. | :09:58. | |
police is one of them, you need to be able to pave that properly, and | :09:59. | :10:06. | |
we have seen cuts in particularly community support officers, they | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
were popular in terms of neighbourhood policing, and they | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
were a conduit for people to be able to talk to communicate, for school | :10:13. | :10:15. | |
children and youths to be able to talk to those officers and tell them | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
about who is taking knives into school and all the rest of it. But | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
we mustn't confuse correlation with causation, but there are a series of | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
correlations in terms of work capability assessments, the bedroom | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
tax, there is a correlation between those individuals on the sharp end | :10:34. | :10:35. | |
of that, rising inequality across society, greater disgruntlement, and | :10:36. | :10:43. | |
greater crime. So we need to be aware that if we want to do anything | :10:44. | :10:46. | |
about the mantra tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime, we | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
need to investigate and explore and try to make sure that we are not | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
doing things in society which increase inequality and therefore | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
increase the proponent of crime for that reason, and at the same time we | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
must of course increase police numbers, but we need to get a stage | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
where we should be able to reduce police and others there isn't so | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
much crime because we are living in a happy more egalitarian society. | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
The police are facing increasingly complex issues, so the idea that | :11:19. | :11:26. | |
vulnerability, child sex abuse, the idea that you might go to somehow | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
reduced numbers and tackle those issues is something that I would say | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
is quite a big concern for senior police officers. And picking up the | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
gaps that have been created in other public services, for example there | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
is not enough mental health provision, so people are going into | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
crisis and are a danger to themselves and the public more often | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
than has been in the past, and it is the police you have to deal with | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
that as well as the crime issues. Coming back to a few other points, I | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
won't get into how many times over the corporation tax thing has been | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
spent by Labour on various different things. I am agreeing with Brian, | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
the numbers just don't add up in terms of the salaries, training, | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
recruitment. But in terms of policing, the whole world of | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
policing is changing, because crime is changing, we are seeing cyber | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
crime growing, and some of the reforms we have done, we have seen | :12:20. | :12:22. | |
the National Crime Agency taking a lead on some of these things and | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
working with volunteers who have expertise. But we have to be clear | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
about what the numbers are. In London, the Metropolitan Police is | :12:32. | :12:34. | |
the best funded police force in the country by a substantial margin, | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
over ?200 a head, yet the best performing police force, which is | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
Durham, is one of the lower funded, which proves in terms of how police | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
forces operate it is not just about how much money they have got. You | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
are not comparing like with like at all. It is about how police forces | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
spend their money, and that is one of the key points in the report. It | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
is also why we are seeing traditional crime falling, cyber | :13:02. | :13:08. | |
crime and fraud being a new part on that, and police forces across the | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
country are currently sitting on ?1.8 billion of reserves, not | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
capital reserves, that is an increase of 400 million in just the | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
last few years, so the police forces are funded, there is no police force | :13:20. | :13:28. | |
in this country that is at full efficiency. So if we could get the | :13:29. | :13:36. | |
forces to full efficiency, all that time, the police to have the | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
expertise to track down and chase, organised crime, all of these things | :13:41. | :13:43. | |
that are not following traditional policing methods. I very recently | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
was on a visit to one of the units in the north-west, and I tweeted, | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
because I a bit of a fan of Twitter, that I'm going to visit it, and I | :13:56. | :14:01. | |
got criticism from a constituent that I was not in my own | :14:02. | :14:04. | |
constituency and I was visiting a place in the north-west, and when I | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
got there, they were showing me a case that they were working on that | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
involve my part of the world, but it was online work that these police | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
officers were working on, not up working the streets but on a | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
computer tracking down child sexual abuse cases. The expertise that we | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
need is changing, and I very much support the point that Theresa May | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
made as Home Secretary which is that I trust the police to run policing. | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
The NPC C and police constables working with their PC sees are the | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
experts who know how to spend the money in the way that they need to | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
spend it. Tom Winsor is the last person I would want to miss quote, | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
but he did raise a significant red flag a few months ago in his State | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
of policing report where he has always been somebody who talks about | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
efficiency and the ability, the room for more efficiency, but even he is | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
saying that he is quite concerned that police forces can't cope any | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
more. I have been clear about this. I have spoken to Tom Winsor directly | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
about this, and he made it very clear, that publication was | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
misrepresented. I am happy to put this on the record so he can back me | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
up, there is no police force that has found full efficiency, and his | :15:22. | :15:24. | |
comment about how the police are spending the money they have got | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
rather than how much they have got. And did he not also say that he was | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
very concerned about the death of community policing in that report? | :15:33. | :15:35. | |
And what he is referring to is how some police forces do their | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
neighbourhood policing, not the finances they have to do with it. | :15:41. | :15:43. | |
Going back to the issue of the spike in knife crime, the primer still was | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
very keen when she was Home Secretary to have curbs in stop and | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
search, when you talk to police officers they have very real | :15:51. | :15:53. | |
concerns that part of the spike in knife crime is due to what they see | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
as an inability to carry out stop and search, and there isn't | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
necessarily empirical evidence to all of this, but it is felt on the | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
street, and in certain communities, such as Hackney, people are calling | :16:08. | :16:10. | |
for more stop and search to stop the issue, and I wonder if we will see a | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
softening on that particular police tactic? There is obviously an issue | :16:15. | :16:27. | |
where we need to look at what is creating that spike, whether it is a | :16:28. | :16:30. | |
spike or where there is momentum there. What Theresa May did, we've | :16:31. | :16:40. | |
got to make sure we've got police service that is representative of | :16:41. | :16:42. | |
its community and that we do not have a situation where stop and | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
search can be abused. The police need to be aware and use it | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
appropriately, and if they are aware, they should use it | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
appropriately. It is absolutely essential that the police focused | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
the tactic of stop and search on the minerals. In order to do that, they | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
need the intelligence from the community. These people who are | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
carrying knives, certainly the hard of those people, carry it around to | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
increase their status on the streets, they use their knives, they | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
threaten people with it, the community know who these people are, | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
they don't have enough trust and confidence so they can | :17:27. | :17:28. | |
confidentially pass that information on to the police so the lease can | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
effectively target stop and search on those criminals. I was the police | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
commander who had Brixton under my command. You had said duration is | :17:39. | :17:46. | |
where Bob Ariz just happened and the police put out a description, an | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
18-year-old wearing a hooding and trainers, which covered half the | :17:52. | :17:54. | |
population of Britain at that time, we need to get far more intelligent | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
about where, did they have an earring, did they have a nose ring, | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
what trousers were they wearing? They might jackets but they won't | :18:03. | :18:09. | |
swap trousers because it is too embarrassing to do it imply big -- | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
in public. What trainers did they have on? Because they want swap | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
trainers. You have to get more intelligence about this and increase | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
it -- it's perfect goodness. There was a move to increase them broad | :18:26. | :18:31. | |
base of people that come into the police service and some people have | :18:32. | :18:34. | |
talked about increasing the amount of academically trained people to | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
become police officers and that will result, they are consulting on it at | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
the moment, in the nation to parachuting people in without police | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
X areas who would essentially become police constables. It is not usually | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
popular in the police service. Just on the question of stop and search, | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
the Labour Party supports evidence -based stop and search. If there is | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
an evidence base for it, of course we supported. But nothing has caused | :19:06. | :19:08. | |
more tensions between the police and the community than random, | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
non-evidence -based stop and searches which actually didn't pick | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
up... It picked up a relatively tiny number of infringements of the law. | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
Evidence -based stop and search is one thing, random stop and searches | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
another. On the issue of police recruitment, we are facing a very | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
different world, in racing -- invitation to police and | :19:38. | :19:40. | |
counterterrorism, and maybe we need to look again at the recruitment of | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
police. But what I would say any steps that are taken to, for | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
instance, bring people indirectly without having been on the beat, any | :19:52. | :19:59. | |
steps taken should only be taken in consultation with the Police | :20:00. | :20:01. | |
Federation and other organisations that represent the police. Published | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
people would learn from history. We had a system decades ago which was | :20:08. | :20:15. | |
quickly abandoned because it did not work, in terms of leadership in the | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
police service. I have a situation when I was a chief inspector of | :20:21. | :20:23. | |
Prisons to wait two officers had life changing injuries, they were | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
shot by an escaped prisoner. We got a health nurse in to do a debrief | :20:29. | :20:34. | |
with the officers, she was shouted out of the room because the officer | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
said, you have no idea what the dangers are that we face on the | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
street, you don't know how we feel, how can you come here and empathise | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
with us? What is a Chief Constable who has never walked the heat, who | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
has never X earrings to the things working in all weathers, in all | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
hours, how was that Chief Constable going to relate to their officers? | :20:58. | :21:03. | |
Of course, if we are getting into far more technical crimes, whether | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
online fraud, which can be very complex, we should bring in experts | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
to help officers to do that. But there is a complete ignoring of the | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
police culture. There is a huge divide, even more than in industry, | :21:18. | :21:24. | |
between workers and managers in the police service because the workers | :21:25. | :21:27. | |
are out there facing danger in all weathers, they and night, and | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
managers are in air-conditioned offices doing mainly nine to five. | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
To increase their divide by bringing in people at the top who have no | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
experience of policing at all is to ignore the very important culture in | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
the police service. Is the concern from your department that there is | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
not enough professionalism in policing? Where is this move coming | :21:52. | :22:01. | |
from? The London Metropolitan Police started the scheme of police | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
constables which has been phenomenally successful, that | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
started from police officers in the Met police. And the Met police is | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
one of the best organisations that has diversify it -- diversify to. At | :22:16. | :22:24. | |
the higher levels, we have been very clear that we do want to see more | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
professionalisation. One is around professionalisation of the police, | :22:31. | :22:38. | |
we wanted to be sector led, which is the right way to do do it. Also, it | :22:39. | :22:45. | |
is giving the police ability to recognise their skills and powers if | :22:46. | :22:48. | |
they choose to leave the police later in their careers and go | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
outside. We left at the moment in this country, you look around at | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
certain senior officers, Ian Hopkins in Manchester being an obvious one, | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
we've got some superb leaders around this treat, and I want the police to | :23:06. | :23:12. | |
continue to have the best of the rest, operationally and | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
organisationally. I think it is the right time to look at what we do as | :23:16. | :23:22. | |
we move forward, around how we continue to move forward, to make | :23:23. | :23:25. | |
sure it does have the best people in it, people and powered who can come | :23:26. | :23:33. | |
into benefit the police. If you look at what the Met police have outlined | :23:34. | :23:41. | |
this week, they make sure they do have a training programme and that | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
they do get spray rinse of being the police of this on the street. We are | :23:46. | :23:48. | |
looking at a big organisation, we have management issues, to do with | :23:49. | :24:01. | |
logistics. We've just heard from Brian, first-hand experience with | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
great insight but the kind of cultural tensions that result when | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
you bring people into an organisation when they haven't gone | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
through the ranks. I found it very dispiriting when the operational | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
commander on the day of the domain is shooting, if you told me she was | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
going to be the Met Commissioner today, I would have said there | :24:25. | :24:30. | |
wasn't a cat in hell's chance. We had quite a few resolutions | :24:31. | :24:36. | |
imploring the force to learn the lessons of that day, but how was it | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
a lesson to promote someone to that degree when they were instrumental | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
in what happened on the day in terms of an innocent person being shot in | :24:45. | :24:50. | |
the Stockwell underground. I'm not one to defend... Diane, you are here | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
to defend things you have said in the past but one of the things you | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
said about institutionalised racialism, I think that holds, that | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
is not something we can deny. We need people at the top of the police | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
force who are already working there who need to find a pathway to | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
promotion. We have heard that people feel they are locked because there | :25:14. | :25:20. | |
are peaks there. We need to seem there are people on the recruitment | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
panels who are sufficiently diverse so that we can avoid that | :25:25. | :25:30. | |
unconscious bias. The sure, we can improve the confidence in policing. | :25:31. | :25:36. | |
I'd do get stopped unfortunately and I think I hold an argument with | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
police officers. I was coming through the Eurostar not so long ago | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
and I was apprehended by six immigration officers and two police | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
officers, would you like to see things? I said you've got no good | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
grounds or give me good justification other than the one of | :25:56. | :26:03. | |
racist bias to profiling, and I won three. I think all of those | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
individuals who are less argued to able to argue their case and we've | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
got to avoid race-based stop and search and profiling. I've really | :26:15. | :26:21. | |
have to challenge, I'm afraid, the comments you have made about | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
Cressida Dick. Cressida Dick, Doug policy that she had to work with | :26:27. | :26:33. | |
which I was trained in at the time, to be a senior designated officer to | :26:34. | :26:39. | |
ask officers to go and shoot a suicide bomber was defective. There | :26:40. | :26:46. | |
was a whole series of areas in the course of that particular operation | :26:47. | :26:54. | |
which... Can I come back on that. You have questioned whether or not | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
Cressida Dick should be Commissioner of the Met and I think you are being | :26:59. | :27:05. | |
and feta her, bearing in mind the cards that she was dealt on that | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
day. She didn't mean stop to shoot to kill. We are a long way down the | :27:10. | :27:18. | |
line, I'm going to have to wrap things up shortly and I will be in | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
trouble because I didn't even get to cyber security. A very sizzling | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
answer from you, have we dropped the ball on cyber security? Nope we'll | :27:28. | :27:36. | |
have a duty, as individuals, organisations, to be aware of what | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
we can do to protect ourselves. But there are literally hundreds of | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
countries, mass organisations that were affected, but we do need to be | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
clear, cyber crime is changing and shifting. 80% of all cyber crime can | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
be avoided we keep our own software up-to-date. Diane. Yes, we have | :27:54. | :28:02. | |
dropped the ball. It is one thing to talk about our individual | :28:03. | :28:04. | |
responsibilities, it is another thing to do but the government | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
responsibilities to institutions as big and vulnerable as the NHS. There | :28:10. | :28:15. | |
are some evidence that there were resource restraints, why be NHS as | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
an institution did not take the steps, did not take the steps to | :28:21. | :28:27. | |
protect itself from the disastrous cyber crime that it begs a bit. We | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
have seen a whole series of failed IT projects. If the equipment and | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
the infrastructure isn't fit for purpose, it needs to be dealt with, | :28:39. | :28:41. | |
preferably not through subcontracting but having top | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
in-house capability that is properly financed. It will be difficult with | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
increased Margie to keep track of it, not terms of meta data and civil | :28:51. | :28:58. | |
libertarian concern is, but in terms of keeping track of the technologies | :28:59. | :29:04. | |
that we do use, in terms of encryption software, if that falls | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
into the wrong hands, if you blah leaving briefcases and trains, we | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
need to make sure we have the mechanism to deal with that. The | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
police service equipped to deal with such a complex issue? There is part | :29:19. | :29:24. | |
of GCHQ that has a responsible T to ensure that people like the NHS are | :29:25. | :29:31. | |
protected. The dilemma is the story was that the American security | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
services saw a vulnerability in the operating software, captain to | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
themselves because they wanted to exploit it in terms of keeping | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
surveillance on people, and that information escaped into the public | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
domain and that was used by criminals. Of course the security | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
services has to be able to exploit weaknesses in operating systems but | :29:56. | :29:58. | |
if they decide to do that, they should also develop an antidote, if | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
you like to that folder ability so that if it into the wrong hands, | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
they need to patch that problem. And that will allow the security | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
services have reached they need in order to combat terrorism and it | :30:13. | :30:18. | |
keeps our public infrastructure, the NHS, safe from cyber attack. That is | :30:19. | :30:26. | |
all we have got time for. Thank you to all the panellists. | :30:27. | :30:31. |