Rent Britain Free Speech


Rent Britain

Live debate from Goldsmiths, University of London. An audience of young people quiz a panel including Labour MP David Lammy on topics such as the availability of good housing.


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This is Free Speech, we're live and it is the only show where you can

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express your opinions on the issues you care about right now on BBC

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Three. I still can't get work.

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You make your own luck in this world.

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We can't lose an entire generation. We have got people talking about

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statistics. Businesses are the life-blood of

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the economy. APPLAUSE

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Yes, this is Free Speech. Welcome. I'm Rick Edwards and tonight we are

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at Goldsmiths University of London. We're going to be hearing what this

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lot have to say and what you have got to say too. Just tell, Tina

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Daheley. Yes. APPLAUSE

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Thank you, Rick. I am here to listen to your opinions and bring

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them to the heart of our discussion live right here in the studio. So,

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get your laptops, tablets and phones ready. Get online now with

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the BBC Facebook or Twitter. Here are the addresses you need. One

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really easy way to be part of the debate is by the power bar which

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should have popped up behind me. It will respond in real-time to what

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you think of the panel's point of view. So just use hashtag yes or

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hashtag no followed by the name of the panellist each time you agree

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or disagree. And here is our panel, whose job is

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to tell us who they are and what they are doing here. Let's start

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with you, please, Raheem Kassam. I'm Raheem Kassam. I guess I am

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here because I'm tired of politicians telling us what to do.

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APPLAUSE David. My name is David Lammy and I

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am the MP for Tottenham and I am here because I think young people

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in Britain are getting a raw deal. Charlotte.

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I'm Charlotte Leslie. I'm the MP for Bristol North West and I am

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here because if you want to change things in in life you need to get

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in and get involved. My name is Sara Pascoe. I am a

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comedian and actor and I am here to learn more about what you guys

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think about stuff. That's our panel.

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APPLAUSE OK, let's get started. We are

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talking about rent Britain and here in London, rents are increasing

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eight times faster than wages and young people can expect to life at

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home until they are 43 before they can afford to buy. What has been

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your experiences of renting in London, guys? Yes. Rent in London

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is ridiculous. It is reclick clusly high and for me, -- ridiculously

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high and for me, I have to go out of London to get a nice house and

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the quality of the house in London is shabby.

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You feel you are going to have to leave. Anyone else struggling with

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rent? It is not feasible to own or rent your own property. I'm still

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living with my family and in terms of rent, it is very high for young

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people to go and rent or purchase a property.

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Yes. I've lived on my own since I was 15 and I'm 27 now and I have

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only moved to London and it is extortionate for a room, let alone

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like trying to get my own house or anything.

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Too much. Yes? I feel, I rent in London and I had no idea where to

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go, how to find a house, whether I was getting a good deal or a bad

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deal and the fact that I have a roof over my head now is a miracle.

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That's what I have to say. OK. The gentleman at the back here.

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I live in Brighton and I find it hard to find a place to live. It is

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the commuter prices. People in London, condition afford to --

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can't afford to live in London. They will buy up the houses there.

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I'm finding it hard myself even living in Brighton.

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Louise, what's your experience? I recognise you from TV. Well, you

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would think that, but one of the things that's really important to

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think about is, we have all established that most of us will be

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renting until we are in our mid-40s, unless you have rich parents.

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Something that has been addressed is the red tape and the paperwork

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that self-employed people have to go. I have moved this year and I

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had to go through the same checks and paperwork and stress just to

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rent a property that my friends have done who have bought.

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Obviously, if I my own property to rent out, I would want to make sure

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it was protected, but to be honest, I felt like a criminal. I have

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never felt more guilty in the six weeks these checks were performed

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on me. Here is my DNA, what more do you want from me? I just want to

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rent a property. APPLAUSE

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The housing charity, Shelter, say phone calls are up 40% in the last

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year, dealing with people struggling with housing. Who eltion

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-- who else had rent problems? is a mainly a lot of young people

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have to rent via Gumtree, I faced landlords giving me a legal rent

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and turning up three days later and three weeks later, saying, "I want

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it for my brother. I want it for my sister." You go to the police and

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the paperwork is not value valid and when you ask them, they will

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say, "It is Gumtree." That's criminal for a lot of young people

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who will never see housing and never own the House of Their own.

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The lady here? I think you are stigmatised because you have to fit

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into a certain trat gee in order to -- certain category in order to

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rent. As a a student that doesn't come under the criteria of having a

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full-time job where you look stable. Even though you have the means to

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pay for it, but because you don't look like the right person on paper,

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even if you have the money then you are looked at a certain way as a

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student, that you are not going to look after the property.

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That's interesting. When we posted about this on Facebook and Twitter,

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we got a huge response and we have spoken to Cat and Dean who have

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different experiences of how they I'm Dean. I am an apprentice motor

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trader. Working on a building site makes me think think more about

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houses. I live with my mum at the moment. I want to get on to the

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housing ladder because I want to have stability when I'm older.

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My name is Cat, I have been squatting for 12 years. I am a poet.

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Most of the buildings that people squat in or long-term empty

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properties. I found renting isolating. Some of my friends were

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squatting and I decided to go and live with them because I didn't

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know when my job was finished and if I would be able to pay the rent.

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House prices are way too high for people of my age. It makes me think

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that I won't get on to the housing ladder unless I had help from

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somebody else. When you are a renting, the landlord can kick you

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out whenever they want. I am planning to buy with my mum.

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I get to live in places that I otherwise wouldn't get to live in.

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There is around about 15 to 20 people who live here. It can be

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stressful at times, it is not for everybody, but it is better than

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trying to find �600 a month. If whoever owns the property is not in

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a position to use it, then they should pass it over to the

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Government to be used for social housing. I think that would bring

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down the prices for everybody else. I was was thinking your squat

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looked nice. We didn't have water at the time. We had to collect the

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water. You have a question. What is it?

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you can't afford to live in London, should you move out?

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OK. Let's go down to our panel. I will start with you ra you Raheen,

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you will have 30 seconds and I am going to time it. Go! I have lived

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in London all my life, but I don't figure it is a right that I get to

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live in London. If my financial situation continues the way it is,

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I will have to think of moving further out or outside London. When

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I grad graduated, I moved down the road here and I got a really cheap,

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box room. I don't believe we should be looking to cram ourselves this

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London. We have got wonderful cities in this country and

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employers are putting jobs there and we should be looking elsewhere

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in this country. Very good time wise. Very good.

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APPLAUSE David. I think quite a lot of young

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people have to live in London because this is where the jobs are.

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The point is... APPLAUSE

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And there is no choice so the point is that we have got to have fair

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rents because people are renting houses that are actually horrible

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and flats that are horrible and they are paying over the odds so we

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need some kind of rent control or fair fair rents like in Germany. We

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have to build more houses. We have got to regulate landlords and

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regulate letting agents who are charging extortionate fees for just

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turning up. APPLAUSE

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Is regulation something that would help? Is rent control something

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that would help? Yes, the guy at the back here. It is a good idea,

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but how would you go about regulating or legislating it? How

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much money would that cost in getting the jobs, it might create

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jobs having people do this, but how much money would it cost to

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regulate? I would like to see it done because then I I could afford

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to get a place of my own, perhaps, but I don't think it would be cost

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effective. Yes, the gentleman here.

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I am doing an apprenticeship in an estate agents. Rent ago property is

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a business, it is d renting a property is a business, it is about

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making money. Houses in London are highly sought after, if the demand

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is increasing, surely the price will increase as well.

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It makes sense. Let's speak to Cat. I believe housing is a Hythe, it is

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about -- it is a human right. It is about homes.

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If you agree or disagree with anything that you are hearing or

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that has just been said, let Tina know.

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Yes, please get in touch. James, you would probably get on with

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Raheem who says, "stop winging about rent. The State can't solve

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anything." What if you can't afford not to live in London? Is it

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discrimination on income grounds? Charlotte? If we didn't have enough

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housing, the price wouldn't be so high. We are doing really well, but

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it is tricky and we are loosening up planning regulations so we can

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do more: You are not doing well?It is a massive problem. Regulation

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sounds lies, but if you have a -- regular regulation sounds nice. I

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think helping first-time buyers on to the housing market is good. But

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I mean, I think we have had experiences of living in shoe boxes

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in in London and it is grim, our parents generation had it good and

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we are suffering because of a baby boom generation. It is not anyone's

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fault, but a baby boom generation to sapped up the property.

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Sara, how do you feel about housing in London? I will tell you about me,

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but so I grew up in Essex and I I moved out at 18 and I lived in

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Leytonstone and I went to university and lived in in halls. I

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never really questioned whether that was right, it is scwust what I

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had -- just what I had to do. Now I live in Tooting. It is a fantastic

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area that's really cheap if you don't mind being on the overground.

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Tooting is up and coming. I don't think I over pay my rent for what I

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have got in terms of London, but again, I don't question because it

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is London that I deserve anymore than that. I just, I am grateful to

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be here and also, housing outside of the city, if you said to me, it

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would be half the rent and you would be in Nottingham. I wouldn't

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go. I would rather be here. This is where I have grown-up and it is

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about maybe, the creative ways of working out out what are we going

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to do about that? Some people don't want to live with strangers and

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houses have to be, not have mice and have running water and it is

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hork when people -- horrible when people are suffering because of the

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place they are living in. You say you can't imaginically

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produce produce Magically houses, we can build them.

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Let's fire up the power bar. David, you are in the lead so far.

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really struggling, giving up the hope of ever being able to buy their

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own home here. Fundamentally, this is an issue of lack of supply. We

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are not building enough homes. We haven't been for many years. Until

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we sort that out, prices will continue to go up. We need to get

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building in London. Who else thinks we need to get building in London?

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Where is Rob? I think this is an argument for uncontrolled mass

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immigration. We should be looking after British youths. There is a

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shortage of houses, especially in London. It is about supply and

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demand. We have a big demand at the moment. In January, it could get.

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There is a potential for it to get a lot. We need to ensure the supply is

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there for the British youths before we open the borders to Eastern

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Europeans. OK. Josh? How would you respond to that? It is true, from a

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Lib Dem perspective, we do need to build more social housing. If you

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look at local authorities, the Lib Dems have a much better record than

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the Tories and Labour on building social housing. The percentage of

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the housing stock goes up under Lib Dem councils. We need to look at

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other ways to make sure low earners can access this housing. I welcome

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the fact that Lib Dem policy like low erring income tax for basic

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ratepayers is ensuring over 20 million people is getting a �700 tax

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cut. That allows them to keep the money they have worked really hard

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:16:20.:16:21.

to earn. Little things like that can help people. OK. I'm speaking up for

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people at home! Chris, he says, "I will be moving to London in

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September for uni. Half my money will be going on my room! It is

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ridiculous!" Who else feels like they are spending over 50% of their

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income on rent at the moment? I am. As a student, I'm paying a lot

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more for my rent in comparison, it is over 30% of what I'm getting. In

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terms of students - because the Government knows what we are

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entitled to - our rent should be cheaper. Yes? I would like to talk

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about the same thing Chris raised at home. I moved here from my first

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year and the halls costs are ridiculous. I'm fortunate that I

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managed to get a job and cover some of that. A lot of people are finding

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it very difficult to move to London and pay so much for rent. OK. The

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lady at the back? Maybe the answer is to raise the rent in London? And

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raise the wage in London. That can't be the answer! Sorry, you were

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saying...? To raise the wage in London. Just in London? OK. This

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gentleman here? We have seen a worrying demographic shift in

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London. Poor people are being priced out. It is like a class-based city

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and it is only for Conservative voters and the Conservative Party

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are only too willing to cut housing benefit to make this happen because

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there are so many constituencies in London. David Lammy, I would be

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worried about what the Conservatives are doing. You have to fight against

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it and help poor people in this country. Are you worried, David?

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Well, I spent most of the last week speaking out against the housing

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benefit cap. In a sense, people are receiving that housing benefit

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because of high rents. The money is going to landlords. The fair rents

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that I argued for are happening in Germany where rents are linked to

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inflation, index-related and where there are much longer tenancies.

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Your landlord can come and take your rent up every two months at the

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moment. In Germany, people have five-year tenancies so they can plan

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over a year, two, three, four, five, they know how much the rent is going

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up. We need that system over here. One quarter of housing benefit

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claimants are in employment. Tina? James is making this point. "We need

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to build more houses. How about some new towns in the London commuter

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area?" This person, "Building more houses would create more jobs and

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homes but potential future problems." "Public transport is a

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key issue. Moving outside of London means paying large amounts on

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travel." If you want your point of view read out, you have to make it

:19:33.:19:43.
:19:43.:19:48.

first. Get in touch. Head to Facebook.com/BBCFreeSpeech. Now we

:19:48.:19:51.

are going to move on to the minimum wage. The Business Secretary has

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announced it is going up. Good news. But how good? Anyone here that works

:19:58.:20:01.

or has worked for minimum wage? A few of you have. Do you know how

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much it is going to go up to in October? Not enough is maybe right!

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12 pence for over 21s, 3 pence if you are an apprentice. Yvonne has a

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question. My question is why can't minimum wage be abolished

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altogether? We should be paid according to service. Let's go to

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David. I will do the 30 seconds on the clock for you. 30 seconds to

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respond. The Labour Party fought hard to get a National Minimum Wage.

:20:37.:20:42.

People were being exploited and ripped off, paid 50p, �1 an hour

:20:42.:20:47.

before that. We should defend it. We now need to move on to having a

:20:47.:20:55.

living wage. This is not the time... Ten seconds? This is not the time to

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go backwards. Frankly, those that think that somehow this has been

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inflationary are wrong. The National Minimum Wage is being copied around

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the world. Stop. Thank you, David. Raheem? Do you agree? No. I don't

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care what the Labour Party fought for. I don't care what any political

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party fought for. This is an issue about people. The minimum wage - it

:21:17.:21:24.

is a false economy. It pushes up pricing and it makes employers cut

:21:24.:21:26.

the number of people they can employ. When I was working in a

:21:26.:21:29.

retail store at university, they raised the minimum wage. What did my

:21:29.:21:32.

employer do? He cut half the staff in the shop and the prices went up.

:21:33.:21:36.

The punters couldn't afford the products and the business had to

:21:36.:21:40.

slash further. It does not make sense to have a minimum wage. It is

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discriminatory. It tells you that you cannot decide for yourself what

:21:44.:21:48.

your services are worth. This is you, this is your labour, you decide

:21:48.:21:51.

what it is worth and you go out there and market yourself. A

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Government telling you what to do is so patronising. David? He is arguing

:21:58.:22:02.

to go back to the 18th Century when working-class people were exploited

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in this country. Two opposing views. Is that getting people going?

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Paul says, "Abolished - all it's done is push prices up for

:22:17.:22:27.
:22:27.:22:28.

everyone." Sara? I find discussing it really scary. I think that it's

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the vulnerable people that would suffer at this. The only thing I do

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think that could happen is if there was a sliding scale within

:22:36.:22:40.

businesses, so some people's minimum wage - if you were a successful

:22:41.:22:44.

nightclub, your minimum wage would be less than a country pub where you

:22:44.:22:48.

have two members of staff and you serve six people all evening. It

:22:48.:22:51.

doesn't go any lower than it is now. All that happens is that really

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vulnerable people, the people that clean, the people that work in bars,

:22:55.:23:00.

they will end up working 14 or 15-hour shifts to make the same

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money that is disgraceful now. I find it discussing it really -- I

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find discussing it really worrying. This gentleman? Bankers have

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exploited all of us in the last few years, so we should have a National

:23:18.:23:23.

Maximum Wage in my opinion. Interesting. This gentleman? Living

:23:23.:23:28.

wage has been introduced in the City Council of Leicester. My opinion

:23:28.:23:33.

about the minimum wage, it should be kept. There ought to be a balance so

:23:33.:23:37.

that people don't get fired from their jobs. There's a possibility of

:23:37.:23:43.

being a balance between jobs, taxes, housing benefit, pretty much

:23:43.:23:49.

everything should be a balance so that you move forward, the business

:23:49.:23:53.

can grow. But the economy is more stable. Is it possible to maintain

:23:53.:23:57.

that balance, Charlotte? I think the word is "balance". When I was

:23:57.:24:01.

working on a minimum wage and I was mopping up pub floors, if someone

:24:01.:24:06.

had said, "Do you want a rise in the minimum wage?" I would have said,

:24:06.:24:10.

"Yes, please." It is always a balance. You do have to protect

:24:10.:24:14.

people. There are some ruthless employers out there. You don't want

:24:14.:24:17.

a living wage that is so high that people have to let people go. It is

:24:17.:24:24.

a balance. Sometimes, it is a difficult one. I think raising it -

:24:24.:24:27.

inflation is rising, living standards are getting higher.

:24:27.:24:31.

Raising it is probably the right thing to do. OK. This gentleman

:24:31.:24:37.

here? You would like to talk about discrimination, but the people on

:24:37.:24:45.

unpaid internships are being discriminated where we don't pay

:24:45.:24:50.

them anything for working. If there was no minimum wage, those people

:24:50.:24:53.

could be employed at a level that their skills are worth. At the

:24:53.:24:58.

moment, they are getting nothing. David? I think there is an issue

:24:58.:25:02.

with internships. It depends on - there is a difference between

:25:02.:25:07.

probably a 15 or 16-year-old spending a couple of weeks working,

:25:07.:25:11.

an 18-year-old, someone who is at university doing a sabbatical year,

:25:11.:25:16.

so you have to look in a lot of detail as to what the internship is,

:25:16.:25:20.

and whether it is work experience, voluntary, or a job, but graduates

:25:20.:25:25.

should be paid for a job of work. The reason this happens - I'm asking

:25:25.:25:28.

because I don't understand - internships, if you are not paid, is

:25:28.:25:35.

that because they are seen as education and not work? They can be

:25:35.:25:39.

voluntary. It is such a grey area. There is no guarantee after you have

:25:39.:25:48.

worked for free that you get that job? No.It is like acting! You are

:25:48.:25:52.

the youngest member of the Corporation of London. What is your

:25:52.:25:56.

feeling about minimum wages? I think abolishing minimum wage would lead

:25:56.:26:00.

to exploitation. I think the whole argument here is finding a balance

:26:00.:26:04.

between the two. In order to find the balance, we need to discuss the

:26:04.:26:07.

main issue which is getting our young people back into employment in

:26:07.:26:15.

the first place to pay them a wage. Is there anyone here who feels the

:26:15.:26:22.

minimum wage has no particular effect? Yes? Obviously, it has an

:26:22.:26:30.

affect on people. I believe that when you go to work, you know, the

:26:30.:26:35.

way the minimum wage sort of restricts people and puts you in a

:26:35.:26:39.

category. Nurses get paid for instance ridiculously less than the

:26:40.:26:44.

banking elite and the people who control our country. And how the

:26:44.:26:49.

workers have to pay for people like David Cameron's rent and your rent,

:26:49.:26:55.

Sir. And the money comes, it seems it is twisted in the way the

:26:55.:26:58.

capitalist system, how it is working, it means a lot of people,

:26:58.:27:03.

in a rich country like Britain, are living in poverty and can't eat and

:27:03.:27:06.

can't afford to survive. Something is going incredibly wrong here, you

:27:06.:27:09.

know. People are going to the storehouse and not being able to

:27:09.:27:16.

eat. The Queen has �27 trillion, she is Queen of England, and people are

:27:16.:27:24.

starving on the streets. Yes? think, essentially, all this the

:27:24.:27:28.

increases in the minimum wage are just lip service. If you are upping

:27:28.:27:36.

it by 13p, that doesn't address the issue. The majority of jobs that are

:27:36.:27:40.

available are quite temporary. It doesn't matter if you are adding 13p

:27:40.:27:45.

extra an hour to somebody who is only able to get 20 hours a week.

:27:45.:27:48.

This is affecting the people who are struggling to find whatever work

:27:48.:27:56.

there is. OK. Yes? The question was should the minimum wage be

:27:56.:28:03.

abolished? When I was 17, I had two job offers. One offered to pay me

:28:03.:28:10.

the minimum wage. It was quite obvious which one to go for - I went

:28:10.:28:17.

for the �6.19. That makes a big difference. By abolishing it, you

:28:17.:28:22.

allow employers to give ridiculous amount, like �3, 50p an hour, even.

:28:22.:28:28.

It is a good idea to keep it as it is. Who feels like you are going to

:28:28.:28:32.

get taken advantage of the you abolish the minimum wage? If you are

:28:32.:28:35.

do the same job as someone that is older than you, but you get paid a

:28:35.:28:40.

different amount, you are doing the same job, so why should you get paid

:28:40.:28:49.

less? You think - you don't value experience in that respect?

:28:49.:28:52.

should be the same age. All ages should get paid the same amount.

:28:52.:28:57.

Yes? I agree. As a younger person, you are a lot fitter, you have more

:28:57.:29:02.

energy, you are a lot more able to do more things so it is unfair to

:29:02.:29:06.

pay a young person less and an older person more when they are least

:29:06.:29:13.

likely to be pro active. OK. This lady? The minimum wage is necessary.

:29:13.:29:16.

It brings an element of equality so nobody will get exploited. The

:29:16.:29:21.

Government are too corrupt. They need to bring some support to young

:29:21.:29:27.

people here who are struggling. The cost-of-living is going up. Salaries

:29:27.:29:33.

and incomes are going up so slowly that people are struggling. People

:29:33.:29:36.

will turn to crime and they will moan again when the next riots

:29:36.:29:40.

happen. People are hungry. Tina, are the people online echoing what we

:29:40.:29:50.
:29:50.:29:58.

Lots of people using the word exploitation.

:29:58.:30:08.
:30:08.:30:13.

And then this one says, "We need a maximum wage."

:30:13.:30:15.

APPLAUSE It is a good time to get a power

:30:15.:30:18.

bar update to see if anything has changed. Raheem, you have slipped

:30:18.:30:21.

back a bit. It was probably your comments about the minimum wage.

:30:21.:30:28.

You can influence the tower bar. Get on -- power bar. Get on Twitter.

:30:28.:30:38.
:30:38.:30:38.

If you agree with Raheem, it is: For David, it is:

:30:38.:30:48.

For Charlotte, it is. For Sara, it is:

:30:48.:30:51.

Make your voice heard on Free Speech.

:30:51.:30:56.

Tuition fees and debt is a huge issue for many of you. Figures show

:30:56.:31:01.

that 19% of graduates will be unemployed and and 36% will be in

:31:01.:31:06.

low skilled jobs. This is what Suli Brakes has to say.

:31:06.:31:10.

So you want to get a degree? Why?

:31:10.:31:15.

Let me tell whau society will tell -- you what society will tell you.

:31:15.:31:18.

It increases your chances of getting a job. Your life will be

:31:18.:31:24.

less stressful. Education is the key. Now let me tell you what your

:31:24.:31:28.

parents will tell you. Make me proud. Increases your chances of

:31:28.:31:31.

getting a job. Provides you with an opportunity to be successfulment

:31:31.:31:37.

your life will be less stressful. Education is the key. Now, let's

:31:37.:31:47.

look at the statistics. Stephen Jobs, net worth �7 billion. RIP.

:31:47.:31:54.

Richard Bronson, net worth �4.2 billion. Oprah Winfrey, net worth

:31:54.:32:01.

�2.7 billion. Stephen Spielberg and and Bill Gates, looking at these

:32:01.:32:10.

individuals, what is your conclusion? Neither of them have

:32:10.:32:15.

graduated from a higher learning It is interesting stuff. Cherry,

:32:15.:32:21.

you have got a question. Because of the increase in tuition fees and a

:32:21.:32:26.

shortage of graduate jobs, do you think it is better to go into

:32:26.:32:30.

apprenticeships? 30 second for Charlotte, starting now?

:32:30.:32:34.

sensible thing to do is to go into a degree or an apprenticeship if it

:32:34.:32:38.

is the right thing for you. We have been dishonest with young people

:32:38.:32:45.

about what their degree is going to lead them to. A lot of employers

:32:45.:32:48.

say they would be better off doing the real thing and not writing

:32:48.:32:53.

about it. And And doing an apprenticeship is just as good as

:32:53.:32:58.

doing an academic course and when we get that right, people get their

:32:58.:33:02.

futures right. David, what do you think about

:33:02.:33:06.

apprenticeships and their value? There is a lot of hype about

:33:06.:33:11.

apprenticeships, but you have got to look behind it. The majority of

:33:11.:33:15.

apprenticeships are in retail and admin. They are not actually in

:33:15.:33:19.

quality professions and technical skills that people want. I worked

:33:19.:33:27.

in McDonald's. I worked at Kentucky Fried Chicken. Please don't call

:33:27.:33:31.

that an apprenticeship. So there is a lot of changes that need to be

:33:31.:33:34.

made for apprenticeships. The majority of the increase in

:33:34.:33:38.

apprenticeships is over 35s. It is not actually young people doing

:33:38.:33:42.

those jobs. The work programme is not working, the youth contract is

:33:42.:33:47.

not working. Young people in this country are unemployed. The hype

:33:47.:33:50.

about apprenticeships is is spin. Of course, university is worth it,

:33:50.:33:54.

but you have to look closely at the university and the course. That is

:33:54.:34:02.

the truth and for some people, �9,000 for some of those courses is

:34:02.:34:12.
:34:12.:34:38.

not worth it. APPLAUSE

:34:38.:34:41.

As a disabled person, I find even though I have got the academic

:34:41.:34:44.

criter criteria to go to the best university in London, I feel my

:34:44.:34:46.

disability has limited my access to those universities because the

:34:46.:34:48.

funding and the loans that I get from universities are not enough

:34:48.:34:51.

and I am having to go to other sources and beg them, plead, for

:34:51.:34:54.

money just so I can go to those universities, just so I can access

:34:54.:34:57.

what I need to and it is so much stress and I have reached points

:34:57.:35:00.

where I thought, "It is not worth it." I think it maybe better for me

:35:00.:35:02.

to go in an internship because it is stress-free.

:35:02.:35:04.

Who else feels the cost of university is so great? I believe

:35:04.:35:06.

that it is crucial to go into higher education, to maximise your

:35:07.:35:09.

chances of being successful. But when the political party promises

:35:09.:35:12.

to lower or keep the twu wirks fee -- tuition fees low, and they don't,

:35:12.:35:14.

who can we trust with our futures? Who feels that university, you

:35:14.:35:19.

don't need it? Is there anyone here? To be honest, I think what

:35:19.:35:23.

the topics we are talking about is on survival and I think it is

:35:23.:35:26.

important that people they should go to university and learn how to,

:35:26.:35:30.

you know, not even go to university, but they should learn how to

:35:30.:35:35.

survive and grow their own food. There wouldn't be a problem if

:35:35.:35:37.

everyone was growing food in their own back garden. That is not being

:35:37.:35:44.

advertised. You get McDonald's, MSG, but that's going to kill you. All

:35:44.:35:48.

the big corporations are trying to poison us when we should be trying

:35:48.:35:52.

to grow our own food and survive of our own backs.

:35:52.:36:02.
:36:02.:36:04.

They are not deliberately trying to poison us, I don't think.

:36:04.:36:13.

They are trying to kill us. We can have a great chat afterwards.

:36:13.:36:16.

I disagree with what the gentleman said over there saying that

:36:16.:36:19.

education or higher education equals success. I think there is a

:36:19.:36:25.

big smoke screen and we have been indock trind from young. I come

:36:25.:36:29.

from a very academic background and I love education and it was the

:36:29.:36:32.

next thing. You had to do university. I never stopped to

:36:32.:36:37.

assess my own life and see what career I want to do and I really do,

:36:37.:36:39.

in hindsight respect the young students that stepped out of

:36:39.:36:44.

college and really looked at their own life and thought thought, "No,

:36:44.:36:47.

I don't want to go to university yet." This they want to go to

:36:47.:36:52.

university and become a doctor, go for it. However, real life skills

:36:52.:36:56.

to network or what not or speak to people and communicate and learn

:36:56.:36:59.

from each other, it is something you can learn from every day life.

:36:59.:37:04.

You don't need a letter to say, "I have got a degree and I can survive

:37:04.:37:09.

with it.". This gentleman. You mentioned you were doing an

:37:09.:37:19.

apprenticeship at an estate agent. Do you feel you messed up? I just

:37:19.:37:25.

cancelled a contract in a football club. Me personally, I feel that

:37:25.:37:30.

experience is far more valuable than any qualification because it

:37:30.:37:33.

is proving that you can do the job well.

:37:33.:37:37.

Yes? What I found worrying and sad about what everyone is saying

:37:37.:37:42.

tonight, we are not talking about dreams or aspirations, everyone is

:37:42.:37:45.

talking about survival. Whilst, I don't agree with this lovely lad

:37:45.:37:49.

here, it is about survival. We are not talking about in ten years, I

:37:49.:37:54.

want to be earning X and I want to have my own business and own a

:37:54.:37:59.

property, it is about how we get through the next six months and I

:37:59.:38:01.

feel this generation is being robbed.

:38:01.:38:07.

Yes. I don't study the big big things, but I did musical theatre

:38:07.:38:11.

and for me, it is about taking a gamble and I didn't do, I did

:38:11.:38:16.

college, but I didn't want to pay nine grand. You will you need is

:38:16.:38:20.

one lucky break and I have had a few over the years, but it is not

:38:20.:38:23.

about going into further education and about the right time, the right

:38:23.:38:26.

place. I would say it is about what is

:38:26.:38:29.

right for you and parents and schools need to give young people a

:38:29.:38:34.

dose of reality, this talk about it you get a degree, you will get a

:38:34.:38:40.

good job, it is not guaranteed. I don't have a degree, I am the only

:38:40.:38:45.

person person in my family. I have been working since I was 16 and I

:38:45.:38:50.

have had my own business, I am doing OK, like work wise. I am in a

:38:50.:38:54.

senior position with no degree and they are saying my experience is

:38:54.:38:57.

invaluable. That's the most valuable thing to an employer. Let

:38:57.:39:01.

people know that a degree is not going to get you through that

:39:01.:39:05.

doorment you need to do what is right for you. Don't be pressured

:39:05.:39:08.

by your parents or peers. Find yourself and do what is right for

:39:08.:39:12.

you. . Yes, sir in the glasses? From the

:39:12.:39:16.

other side, it has become fashionable to bash degrees. There

:39:16.:39:22.

are a lot of people that want to go and out and carry on learning and

:39:22.:39:25.

carry on educating themselves and there is nothing wrong with going

:39:25.:39:31.

to an apprenticeship. I don't know why why suddenly people are up in

:39:31.:39:35.

arms about degrees. The gentleman here.

:39:35.:39:39.

When people decided that 50% of young people have to go to

:39:39.:39:43.

university, it made everything else much less valuable. Yes, some

:39:43.:39:48.

degrees are important, doctors, you need that quality of education, but

:39:48.:39:52.

apprenticeships should be the main way. Our secondary education system

:39:52.:39:55.

is flawed. Because it says you must be academic or you have failed.

:39:55.:39:59.

Technical schools and colleges are the way we need to focus because

:39:59.:40:09.
:40:09.:40:09.

some people aren't academic and that doesn't make them bad people.

:40:09.:40:14.

A degree is not for everyone. It was damaging when the Tony Blair

:40:14.:40:17.

Government said 50% of all youngsters should be going to

:40:17.:40:20.

universities. I went to university. I fell pressure to go to university

:40:20.:40:23.

from my parents, from the school and I wasn't a particularly, you

:40:23.:40:27.

know, the type of person who would be good at hitting the books. I

:40:27.:40:30.

feel like I lost out in that time. I have just started a company

:40:30.:40:36.

myself trying to be self-employed on how to file tax returns on how

:40:36.:40:40.

to do company accounts. Learning real life, real world skills. It

:40:40.:40:44.

wasn't for me and I bet you, it is not for a lot of people. We are

:40:44.:40:47.

trying to pressure so many people to go to university when they don't

:40:47.:40:53.

want to, they are not cut out for it and we do better if we taught

:40:53.:40:56.

them the skills to go out in the workplace and become the Richard

:40:56.:41:01.

Branson's of the world. You went to university, Sara?

:41:02.:41:08.

I am a terrible example to young people. I worked for two years. I

:41:08.:41:12.

had no money. I was working in Nottingham for �100 and I was so

:41:12.:41:22.
:41:22.:41:26.

far over my overdraft, the only way was to go to university. I did an

:41:26.:41:30.

English degree and it was the first generation, I had a single parent

:41:30.:41:34.

family from Romford and Dagenham and I never thought I would earn

:41:34.:41:38.

over 0 grand and they -- 20 grand and they said if you earn over 20

:41:39.:41:45.

grand and after ten years it goes away and I was like "brilliant." I

:41:45.:41:51.

know it is a lot more now, but do you know what? I earn, I only

:41:51.:41:56.

started paying off my student student loan and that degree is no

:41:56.:42:01.

use for any job unless you want to be an English teacher. It smashed

:42:01.:42:06.

my mind open. It made me want to learn about things and be part of

:42:06.:42:09.

the community and that's why I am proud to pay for it.

:42:09.:42:19.
:42:19.:42:23.

An interesting prospective. Tina? Steve Steve Jobs and and Alan

:42:23.:42:28.

Sugar succeeded. How can you expect young people to survive on �2 an

:42:28.:42:33.

hour, pay them a minimum age and bring in a living wage as well.

:42:33.:42:37.

Damien says, "Go to university and read a degree if it makes you happy

:42:38.:42:43.

and if it is what you want to do." It is about making you happy. Good

:42:43.:42:47.

time to have a look at the power bar to see if anything changed.

:42:47.:42:50.

David, you are still in the lead. Very popular. At home with the

:42:50.:42:56.

online audience, but Sara is close behind you!

:42:56.:42:59.

Oh, yes, David. The FA announced this afternoon

:42:59.:43:03.

that Luis Suarez has received a ten match ban for biting Branislav

:43:03.:43:13.
:43:13.:43:15.

Ivanovic on the arm. It is a longer ban than he received for racially

:43:15.:43:25.
:43:25.:43:30.

abusing patries Patrice Evra. boyfriend says I talk about

:43:30.:43:33.

football like a Daly Mail talks about immigration. Just repeating

:43:33.:43:39.

things I have heard, passionately, but with no knowledge! My thing on

:43:39.:43:45.

this, I have got an A-level in law and so I think, so I read something

:43:45.:43:49.

like this in the papers and it says a man bit another man and that

:43:49.:43:52.

should be, people should be protected whether they are at work.

:43:52.:43:58.

I do stand-up and if someone heckles me, I am not allowed to hit

:43:58.:44:02.

them. People complain about the amount of matches he is doing, he

:44:02.:44:06.

should go to prison. Sorry Liverpool FC.

:44:06.:44:10.

I don't think prison is on the cards. Raheem? Ten matches is a

:44:10.:44:17.

short amount of time. He has got form. He was banned by the Dutch FA

:44:17.:44:22.

for doing the same thing. He is not a great role model. The FA has a

:44:22.:44:25.

responsibility to make sure this guy is a role model for young

:44:25.:44:29.

people. I don't want to see people biting each other in the playground.

:44:29.:44:34.

This guy should be made to clean up the stadium after each after each

:44:34.:44:39.

of the ten games that he is not allowed to play in. He needs to

:44:39.:44:44.

learn that he can't behave like an animal on the pitch and get away.

:44:44.:44:51.

He needs to feel like this hits him in the pocket. He should be given

:44:51.:44:54.

therapy. If he was a bus driver and he bit someone, you don't like your

:44:54.:44:57.

help. Someone needs to help you you.

:44:57.:45:01.

He is going to do anger management classes, I believe.

:45:01.:45:08.

You played football, what's your I think it is passion that hasn't

:45:08.:45:14.

been controlled properly. It shows his passion in want to go win, but

:45:14.:45:24.
:45:24.:45:36.

he has to be punish whether he is a millions of lives. We are not

:45:36.:45:40.

talking about that. What we are talking about at the moment is

:45:40.:45:45.

Suarez. You, at the back? You would get fired for biting someone in any

:45:45.:45:52.

other job. It is just about you bit somebody at work - fire him! Yes?

:45:52.:45:58.

The way the FA has dealt with it has been the worst part. Giving a lower

:45:58.:46:06.

ban than for racism. It seems like they are saying, "Say no to rabies!"

:46:06.:46:10.

Catchy(!) Yes? It is because the FA know they can get away with it. The

:46:10.:46:16.

more, the higher company you work for, the more money you earn. It

:46:16.:46:21.

seems like it is less regulated for what you can do. If they can get

:46:21.:46:27.

away with banning him for ten matches, they will do that. If it

:46:27.:46:30.

swuz someone, not in a higher company, the consequences would be

:46:30.:46:35.

tough. Are we furious because he earns so much money? Is that the

:46:35.:46:39.

thing? I think, like the gentleman there said, we shouldn't be talking

:46:39.:46:48.

about it. We are.I know. We are. So let's move on. My point is...

:46:48.:46:54.

Footballers are role models for young people - they are not. We

:46:54.:46:57.

shouldn't expect that footballers have a moral obligation to behave on

:46:57.:47:00.

the pitch because children are watching them. They are playing and,

:47:00.:47:05.

in the heat of the moment, they might bite someone. What he did, the

:47:05.:47:09.

punishment he got for it, we should be questioning why the Football

:47:09.:47:12.

Association take less of a stance on racism and more of a stance on

:47:12.:47:19.

someone biting. That is ludicrous. Yes, the hand up there? Whether it

:47:19.:47:27.

is racism or biting, footballers are role models. If they are -

:47:27.:47:31.

five-year-olds will imitate the behaviour. They won't.They will!

:47:32.:47:35.

Children imitate behaviour more than you will believe. It is wrong to say

:47:35.:47:44.

that they won't. Yes, Sir? When you say about Luis Suarez - nurses get

:47:44.:47:47.

paid �120,000 in two years, he gets that in a week! They save lives for

:47:47.:47:54.

16 hours a day. Yes, OK. You are cross about that. Charlotte? Look,

:47:54.:48:03.

he was at work. All I know is if I bit David Cameron at work... A big

:48:03.:48:13.
:48:13.:48:14.

if! If I do... There is a point about people being beyond blame. We

:48:14.:48:19.

have seen bankers, the head of the NHS. They are big people and seem to

:48:19.:48:23.

be beyond blame. He needs to face the consequences. Your life is not

:48:23.:48:28.

in a great way if you are biting someone. Being a high-profile

:48:28.:48:31.

footballer has to be a stress and a strain. He needs to be taken off the

:48:31.:48:39.

pitch, for the other players' sake as well! Yes, the gentleman there?

:48:39.:48:46.

You have precedent in law. When the Merseyside Police turn round and go,

:48:46.:48:52.

"There is no case to argue." When somebody in the street bites

:48:52.:48:57.

someone, "You can't prosecute me, you didn't prosecute Luis Suarez,

:48:57.:49:04.

I'm innocent, too!" David? A club like Liverpool should be about

:49:04.:49:08.

community, about hard work, about reputation. I think it is a shame

:49:08.:49:15.

that we have got to a place where big football clubs put money - and

:49:15.:49:19.

that's what Luis Suarez represents - before a decency that football used

:49:19.:49:25.

to be about. In the end, I think the public are reacting against a group

:49:25.:49:28.

of people and footballers are included, they are hugely

:49:28.:49:35.

privileged, lots of money, and they are above the law when everybody

:49:35.:49:38.

else can't make racist statements and can't go around biting people.

:49:38.:49:45.

Tina? Why are we talking about Suarez? We put this on the Newsbeat

:49:45.:49:49.

Facebook page and it got a huge response. Jamie said, "I want to

:49:49.:49:54.

know why UK law doesn't apply to football pitches. Assault and racism

:49:54.:49:59.

need to be stopped." Adam, "Should have been banned from the Premier

:49:59.:50:07.

League. They should be given the punishment we get." "It's a

:50:07.:50:12.

ludicrous ban. I have seen a lot worse on a football pitch. He shows

:50:12.:50:18.

passion, unlike so many others." The Power Bar update. Sara, you have

:50:18.:50:28.
:50:28.:50:29.

caught up with David. Neck-and-neck. Very good. The death of Lady

:50:29.:50:35.

Thatcher provoked a huge response from young and old with many

:50:35.:50:38.

conflicting opinions about her legacy. The Free Speech audience

:50:38.:50:43.

have had their say too. Here are a few thoughts to start you off.

:50:43.:50:53.
:50:53.:50:55.

Strong minded. Patriotic. Short-sighted. The Iron Lady.Strong

:50:55.:51:04.

lady. U-turn, if you want to. female Prime Minister. Shift of the

:51:04.:51:09.

political spectrum. Communities destroyed by unemployment. Lack of

:51:09.:51:19.
:51:19.:51:19.

social housing. Get rich quick.The Lady is not for turning. Unlucky.

:51:19.:51:28.

Lucky. Very lucky. Does it matter? It's happened. Lucky.Move on. Her

:51:28.:51:34.

legacy remains. We have a question from Josh? Was it right to celebrate

:51:34.:51:39.

the death of Thatcher? "Yes" or "no"? Celebrate the death of

:51:39.:51:44.

someone? No, that is never right. I think you can politically disagree

:51:44.:51:49.

with someone. David and I politically disagree on a lot of

:51:49.:51:55.

things. I would like to think when either of us pass away the other one

:51:55.:51:59.

won't dance on the grave! You have had two very strong opinions come

:51:59.:52:03.

out on either side. People aren't looking at the facts. People aren't

:52:03.:52:06.

looking at the facts that the Labour Government before her closed more

:52:06.:52:09.

mining pits than she did in 11 years. They closed more in five

:52:09.:52:15.

years. There are a lot of myths out there. I implore people before we

:52:15.:52:18.

make these judgments, just go out and read about it for yourselves.

:52:18.:52:22.

Read some things you don't necessarily think you will agree

:52:22.:52:29.

with and test yourself and say, "Did I know that about what she did?" See

:52:29.:52:36.

exactly what she stood for in the world. Please, no matter who it is,

:52:36.:52:40.

when Chavez died, a lot of people were celebrating. Don't celebrate

:52:40.:52:45.

someone's death. David? If you were growing up in an inner city area, as

:52:45.:52:50.

I was, if you saw riots, if you were a miner, if you were fighting

:52:50.:52:53.

against apartheid, this is not a woman you feel like you want to

:52:53.:52:56.

celebrate. I don't think you should celebrate someone's death. You have

:52:56.:53:03.

to ask who is the person that created a culture, a consumerism, a

:53:03.:53:12.

lack of decency? Where did that begin? In the' 80s. Charlotte?

:53:12.:53:16.

let other people tell you what to think. Let's remember - I wasn't

:53:16.:53:22.

born in the '70s. Rats, bodies uncollected, three-day weeks, the

:53:22.:53:26.

"Winter of Discontent" was a bad place. Heath was responsible for

:53:26.:53:31.

that. The mining community was not sustainable. It had been closing.

:53:31.:53:35.

Thatcher switched off the liep support machine. That is not to

:53:35.:53:41.

undermine the -- the life-support machine. That is not to under mine

:53:41.:53:50.

that - it is a complex legacy. It's made me read a lot more about

:53:50.:53:53.

what's happened under Thatcher's Government. It brings us together,

:53:53.:53:56.

whether we agree or disagree. We now talk about what we do. That is what

:53:56.:54:02.

I think. A quick show of hands. Who feels like Thatcher had a positive

:54:02.:54:12.
:54:12.:54:12.

legacy? Who thinks negative? Interesting. Any specific thoughts?

:54:12.:54:22.

With Thatcher, a lot of her legacy - she brought the country forward into

:54:22.:54:25.

a time that other places in the world had got to before us. We

:54:25.:54:29.

cannot forget a lot of the divisive politics that she stood for and

:54:29.:54:34.

whilst a lot of the things would have happened without her, we cannot

:54:34.:54:39.

forget that millions of people were unemployed and she wasn't perfect,

:54:39.:54:43.

but she wasn't evil at the same time. You should never celebrate

:54:43.:54:47.

someone's death. Tina, a final look at the Power Bar? It's been

:54:47.:54:52.

interesting. Charlotte, you slipped ahead of David, now you have slipped

:54:52.:54:59.

back. Overall tonight, David, you are the winner. Congratulations.

:54:59.:55:06.

That means you get to have the final say. You have 15 seconds. That's on

:55:06.:55:13.

this debate. David?For this debate, it keeps changing. We have worked

:55:13.:55:19.

out the maths behind it. David is the winner! It is not a fix. David?

:55:19.:55:23.

Look, I think, as I said, young people are getting a raw deal in

:55:23.:55:29.

this country. Unemployment, tuition fees, and the discussion we have had

:55:29.:55:33.

about the minimum wage. For those reasons, you have to be politically

:55:33.:55:36.

engaged. You have to stand up to the Coalition Government. You have to

:55:36.:55:41.

pressure my party to continue to do better, basically. This country

:55:41.:55:44.

needs a proper politics that addresses the issues of our time. We

:55:44.:55:49.

have been debating the 1980s. We are living with the legacy of the 1980s.

:55:49.:55:52.

We need to move forward together and this programme has demonstrated

:55:52.:56:02.
:56:02.:56:03.

that. That is almost it. Thank you to our audience. Our panel and to

:56:03.:56:09.

you at home for sending in all of your comments. The debate will

:56:09.:56:12.

continue online every day of every week of every month of the year.

:56:12.:56:18.

Join us next time. We will be live on May 22nd at 8.00pm. We will leave

:56:18.:56:25.

you with some more thoughts on education from Suli Brakes. This one

:56:25.:56:33.

is for my generation. Picture their future, accept destiny on Facebook.

:56:33.:56:38.

This one has my failures and drop-outs. Shop assistants and

:56:38.:56:43.

cleaners and cashiers, my self-employed entrepreneurs, the

:56:43.:56:47.

How easy is it for young people to get decent housing? This is just one of the big stories in the live debate show presented by Rick Edwards from Goldsmiths, University of London, with an audience of 120 people aged 18-28. Rick hears the opinions of the studio audience on the big stories of the day, with Tina Daheley from Radio 1's Newsbeat relaying Twitter, Facebook and website messages from viewers at home. David Lammy, Labour MP for Tottenham, is among those on the panel of distinguished commentators.


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