Live from Parliament Free Speech

INTLRNSZ Quick sell fee with Big Ben, I'm not an idiot, I will tweet

that right now we are live from Westminster. We have come right to

the heart of Government on the day that mains at the has said that many

young people regard the Conservative Party as aliens from another plan

yet. To ask why do so few young people vote join us now live on BBC

Three from parliament. I'm not Not voting out of cap -- apathy, but

indifference. Young people should engage. I I think young people

should vote and we need new ideas. I don't vote because there is a

majority in the area I live and the vote would be lost. It's OK, I have

made it, I'm here, I'm Rick Edwards and we're at Central Hall, Charles I

was tried her and some what more recently Nelson Mandela and Bill

Clinton have spoken here. There can't be a better place to debate

the issues that matter to young people. We have 150 of them packed

in here tonight for Free Speech parliament.

This is the first live-ever transmission from Westminster

Central Hall, it is a chance to connect with Westminster and

democracy. Our audience are here to do just that, we want you to do at

home the same. We are live and I want you to shape the debate. So get

on-line right now with Facebook Twitter and the BBC.

S The Power Bar responds immediately to what you want it to do. Use the

harsh tack yes or no, followed by the first name of a panellist, each

time you agree or disagree with them. And here is our panel, whose

first job in just one sentence is to tell us who they are and why they

are here. I'm Owen Jones and I'm a panellist and author, and I look 12

years old. I'm here to talk about how young people can organise and

fight for their future. I'm Deborah Meaden, business woman, and investor

on Dragons' Den and older than Owen. I'm here to be a voice for -- for

the people. I'm Jacob RhysMogg and a Tory and not an alien. I'm Stella

Ceasy a Labour Party MP from London. I'm here because people like you are

the future and we have to make sure we are working with you to make

Britain a better place. That is the panel for this evening. Let's get

going. It is time to start a revolution, or so says Russell Brand

and singer Morrisey has stepped in to support him today. They claim

that not voting is the first step. And only around half of all

18-24-year-olds are registered to vote. Revolutionary or not

interested. Here are some opinions. There is not much point in

registering because I'm not planning on voting. No young people will do

what they are saying in parliament, so we need to be letting our voice

out in different ways. It is more important than ticking a box every

five years. I think more young people should

vote like me. When young people don't vote their voices are not

heard. We need more involvement in how the political system works. If

we start voting politicians will pay more attention. If you don't vote

nothing will change. I believe having the right to vote is a

privilege, so many people have died for our rights to vote. The problem

is I don't trust the politicians and their manifestos. Next time I vote I

will spoil my ballot. I'm exercising my right to vote but I'm saying

nobody represents me. I didn't realise you had to register to vote,

between university, work and paying the rent I didn't get round to it.

Voting should be more accessible. I'm not surprised that the turnout

for voting is so low amongst young people.

We have a question from Rhys, what do you want to ask? I is it worth

voting. Jacob is it worth voting? Yes it is, because that will Decide

which Government is in power. If you look at how elections have gone, in

1997, classic example, the Conservatives after 18 years in

power lost to an overwhelming Labour majority because people felt it was

time for a change. In 2010, not quite as big a change. But again one

Government goes and another comes in. Does it make any difference? Yes

it does. The things I would do and the things Stella would do are

different. I believe in a whole different set of things which I hope

to try to persuade you of. I'm very concerned about this level of

apathy, because if people don't get involved and become disinterested

then it will be very hard to change things and you will simply have a

small group of politicians running the show with very little

accountability. So do vote and why not stand, put your views forward

rather than just taking mine or Stellas or anybody else's. Logic,

what do you think about voting? Personally the one thing I did take

from Jacob is I agree you should stand yourself if you think there is

something wrong with the system. Ultimately myself I have never

voted, I have never voted because I feel there are fundamental flaws

within the system itself. The term "democracy" is used very loosely,

the definition of a democracy is we're all eligible citizens,

participating equally. If we are unable to get the vote from every

citizen in the UK we can't claim a democracy. On top of this we also

have a Royal Family who we are unable to democratically vote in or

out of power, they have the most power, we all know out of everybody

to get the Government, they are more powerful than the Government

ultimately I don't see a democratic country so I don't see there are

people there to lead us the people. So for that reason I don't vote.

What is the alternative, how would you chan things? To change things I

think the first step is for politicians to get the people on

their side. To make the people actually like them, as people, to

take a liking to them. To agree with their policies. So when things like

Mark Duggan gets killed, these injustices that affect the people

directly and the people are affected by this, because it is the police

that are carrying out the injustices. When these things

happen, this is the point when politicians need to make their

voices very, very heard and make sure justice is passed out. That way

I would vote for you. Do you believe in revolution like Russell Brand?

Not an aggressive and physical revolution, I think the mind set of

the UK population needs to change. That will be of great benefit to us

all. Remember we are live if you want to get in touch you can on

Twitter and on Facebook. Who here is very much in favour of voting? It is

important for the young people to realise they have to exercise their

right, even spoiling your ballot is better than not saying. Both sides

of Government you need to say your want your opinion and to be heard.

Whether or not you agree with any party is a different thing. Like

Logic and Jacob said if you really disagree that strongly get out Stan

yourself. But by not voting and sitting at home you are not sending

out a positive message in my way. Who is not for voting? I I have

voted once, the only reason I voted was a negative reason, I was a

single person who was benefitting from the current party in post. And

the changes the other party would put me in a financial burden,

because of my children I voted. It didn't go my way so I kind of

thought no-one else represents what I believe in at the moment so I take

it upon myself in my job and in my life to get my point across and my

voice heard in a different way rather than actually vote. You won't

vote now? Not until there is someone actually I believe represents what

I'm about and understands the situations that maybe I'm coming

from or other young people that I will work with. Until there is

someone that really represents where they are coming from and

understanding the barriers and issues they are facing I'm not

willing to vote. How would you respond to that? I'm really worried

by what you say, what you are talking about is exactly what

politics for me is about. I got involved in politics not because I

wanted to change Governments but lives. The decisions we can make

sheer and at a local level change people's lives. Actually what we

need is for everyone to be part of that conversation. When you say look

I was part of it and then I'm going to drop out of it, we won't hear

your voice. The decisions that are made are by the people in the room

who do take part. It does really trouble me that people feel. I agree

there are lots of problems with our political system right now, it is

not a process thing but a culture thing, it is an understanding about

how change happens. If we don't change that we won't hear your

voice. Equally your concerns won't be represented. I'm worried by what

you say, we all miss out as a result. How would you change things.

How would you enfranchise this lady? Part of this is about the culture of

politics. The people understanding how they can make change happen.

What role like myself and Jacob. We have different opinions and contrast

in what we want to do. But the idea that 650 people alone in Westminster

have all the ideas and energy to change the country, doesn't accord

with reality. We need to get you more involved. That is about the

process we use. I call this place Hogwarts gone wrong, because the way

in which it is structured doesn't meet with the way you want us to be

involved in your lives. We want to change the culture that says just

because you want to compromise or more people wanted a different

position it didn't make a difference. I wish there was a

different way of doing this. I maybe when I was in difficult situations

at the time, I thought I would go and see my local MP and maybe talk

to them. I I felt I had strength to do so, they didn't want to listen. I

was someone that wanted to help myself and wanted to go to work and

didn't rely on benefits, within I asked for the meeting and

appointment, I gave them the chance to open their ears but didn't. Why

would I rely on the system again. If you agree or disagree with anything

being said or have any solutions let Tina know? Please do, this one from

Steve who agrees with your point made in the audience. This has come

in from Luke: What is the point of voting no, matter who is in charge

people always disagree with the Government. And this one to Stella

and Jacob from Alex who says: The current make up of MPs is nowhere

near representative of the people, privileged and out-of-touch, what do

you think? Deborah, are MPs privileged and out-of-touch?

Out-of-touch, yes. I think actually I have spent very little time in

these walls, but whenever I do I think have you actually stepped

outside of this and talked to people. And the lives that they are

living beyond these walls. I have heard people convince themselves

that they know an awful lot about how people feel and I think well I

walk around my every day life and they are not reflecting what you are

saying. I think they are definitely out-of-touch. But the whole thing

about voting for me is that voting is the end product of the thing that

you need to do first and the thing you need to do first is engage with

people. This is what we are talking about. Engaging with people so they

actually get what matters. Now, not voting is a problem for me, because

it is like having that silent argument where you don't tell your

partner why you're not speaking to them any more, you just go quiet.

Nothing happens. What I think is the utopia is telling, it is not waiting

for the Government to tell us what they are going to do, it is not

hearing what they are going to do and saying no I don't like it, it is

sending loud and clear messages, saying this is what is important to

us and you need to reflect it, because if you don't somebody else

gets my vote. And do you know, these guys, MPs spend their life trying to

find out what it is that matters to you, trying to win your votes. And I

think there is this disconnect between people trying to get their

message across and the people who believe that they are hearing a

message. But it is not necessarily your message. What's the root cause

of this disconnect if one does exist, Owen? The point about the

make-up of parliament is really important. We need a parliament that

looks like the people it represents, that means more women, more people

from ethnic minority backgrounds, it means more people who worked in

supermarket, call centres, who know what it is like to struct well a

bill, and understand what it is like to be stuck on a social housing

waiting list. It is more profound than that. This is plea, I won't get

on my knees but I will being people watching to think this through. We

live in the 7th richest country on the face of the earth and half a

million people are now dependant on food banks even as the wealth of the

top 1,000 people booms like it has never boomed before. The people in

this audience and the people watching face this future, go to

university and they will be saddled with decades of debt. Even if they

graduate they will face a job they would have gotten without

university. They will struggle to get an affordable home, where half a

million people are stuck on social housing waiting lists. They will end

up with many jobs where they will slog their guts out and come home

with a pay pack et that doesn't let them -- packet that doesn't allow

them to support their families. And this is my plea, the way we get

change in this country isn't by waiting for the people at the top to

give things to us out of the goodwill and generosity of their

hearts, if you like, but by people organising from below. All the

things we have in this country, everything we take for granted was

given to us because people got out there and organised and struggled.

That included the vote. We say as a cliche people died for the vote,

they died for it because people with power tried to stop them getting the

vote because they knew how powerful it was. Not just voting it means

organising, protesting, it means like the likes of UK Uncut, who

occupy businesses and shops of owners who weren't paying tax, the

?25 billion we lose because people won't pay taxes. My plea is this,

whatever you do, whatever it is, even if you don't think voting is

the way forward, don't leave politics to politician, organise,

stand in the best traditions of this country, ancestors who got all the

things we take for granted, and don't let your future be taken away

from you by people who are making you pay for a crisis at the moment

you didn't actually have anything to do with. LINEBREAK APPLAUSE

Beautifully impassioned, I wish you had done it on your knees! Time to

look at the panel. Instant judgment, are you ready to find out what the

audience thought so far. Let's power up the Power Bar tonight. And

Deborah, you are connecting with the audience at home the most at the

moment, Stella you are a close second and Jane could be you have

got a bit of catching -- Jacob you have a bit of catching up to do. P

Here in the blue jumper? You can stand up if you like, you don't have

to. It is weird claim I I just wanted to ask, considering in

Scotland next year there will be the independence referendum and

16-year-olds are allowed to vote, do you think by lowering the voting age

to 16 more young people will be empowered to vote. Jacob do you

think it will engage young people more if the voting age was lowered?

If I was 16 I would have voted because I'm interested in politics

all my life. I don't think that is the real problem, I don't think it

is the voting age, it is failure to persuade people that voting will

really change things. That is what has come up in this discussion. But

I would just like to add, here in this room we have talked about

people dying for the vote. Emily Davidson the sufficient fret get hid

in a cupboard yards from here and died under the king's horse getting

votes for women. People were tried for their life in this room to get

freedoms for British society. It is not just talk to say people died for

the right to vote, it is real and immediate in this room. Gentleman

here with the white shirt and blue jumper, only blue jumpers tonight.

Up you get! I I was going to say in terms of the question about getting

young people at 16 to vote, I was going to ask are you not accepting

that because of the involving 1. 5 young people in our democracy. We

are spending too much time on voting, voting is one aspect of

being a citizen which you should do, democracy doesn't stop at the ballot

box, there is many other things we should get involved in. I don't know

if you said it earlier about young people being interested in politics,

of course they are interested in politics because they are interested

in issues that affect them. That doesn't make sense. I know young

people aren't interested in politics in the broader sense, not

necessarily becoming a politician, but through social media campaigns,

on-line and social action, they are interested in politics and the

problem is more of them need to stand up and politicians to come to

young people. You only see politicians when it is time for

votes. So 2015 is when I start seeing people knocking on my door,

until then nobody comes again. The disconnect is massive. I agree with

you, I have been a passionate campaigner of votes at 16, not

because it will get more young people to vote, because I think it

is the right thing to do. I he a social action background. What I

take issue with, when we talk about out-of-touch, what is out-of-touch

is the way we make decisions in this country. This is not a customer

complaints desk. It is where we all come together to decide the world we

want to create. That is not just going to start with voting, it is

about participation and what all of us can do to support each other to

achieve our potential. So the only thing we are doing is voting every

four years, we are missing a trick, you have so much to give to Britain

if we don't find ways of working with you in your communities to

support each other. 16 is just the start of the conversation, a broader

conversation about the role all of us can play. I resent the idea if we

could find 650 perfect people that would be job done. It is much harder

than that, it doesn't mean we shouldn't try to get there. We have

to find answers as well as actions. There are lots of angry

anti-establishment messages coming in. This is one we can bring out.

They are saying there is a problem with the panel we have here tonight.

Do we not fitter those ones out. This gentleman here? I personally I

think we should be looking at electoral reform once again, I don't

think "first past the post" don't do justice, we should look at

proportional voting systems, more people and more significant parts of

society are represented when we do go to vote. You look angry, Sir? I

I'm happy i think it is interesting, no offence but... Here we go. But we

have a panel of two professional career politician, a celebrity, a

multi-millionaire business leader and someone from the mainstream

media, no offence Owen you are the exception that proves the rule. I

think, you know where is the UK Uncut, the occupied movement where

are the communities mobilising against fracking at the moment.

There is a danger we present politics as something that happens

with experts in a far away place. Politics has always been about the

little people we are not, can I finish, I'm sorry I am going to

finish what I'm saying, because there is a danger that we go to the

same people who cause the ecological, social and economic

collapse to find the solutions and that's not going to work. In the

three decades that I have been on this planet no party in this

building has presented a serious challenge to neo-liberalism, cuts,

the widening gap between rich and poor, and unjust foreign policy.

What can people here do about it, they have to get creative. They can

vote every four years, Jacob you said maybe stand for parliament,

maybe you have a few million quid you can lend me to do that. Plaits.

-- LINEBREAK APPLAUSE LINEBREAK -- LINEBREAKAPPLAUSE LINEBREAK

APPLAUSE. I find that really difficult,

because I hate being put in a box where they say I have millions of

pounds. I didn't always have millions of pounds. Putting me or

anybody into that box doesn't mean they care or worry about the same

things. If I didn't care I wouldn't be sitting here, I would be sitting

in a nice warm place at home. It is a very dangerous thing. I'm not

talking about me or dangerous place. It is not fair to put people in

boxes because there are many different people here from different

backgrounds and everybody can have their own particular things they

really worry about, that is dangerous thing you said. I I'm

sorry you are upset I'm more worried about the people in this audience

who can't afford to access the decision makers in both of your

parties. Because they didn't afford millions of pounds to get democracy,

democracy is a sick animal. Like yourself I'm sure we have been on

many demonstrations, I was taken by my parents on the march against the

poll tax when I was five-year-olds I started chant, it was my proudest

political moment probably. The point about that march against the poll

tax, that demonstration, if you like and the movement against the poll

tax, people didn't wait to vote, they got out there and protested.

Millions of people refused to pay the poll tax, including my own

parents. Because of that it got rid of the poll tax and got rid of

Margaret Thatcher and kick her out of Number Ten. The point there is

don't just leave it to the professional politicians if you

like, don't just leave it to the political elite, protest and

politics is something you can all get involved in. I think you have a

responsibility to do that. Whatever your political views are, actually,

because I can't emphasise how difficult your futures are going to

be unless you get out there and start organising and protesting and

forcing the people at the top, forcing them to hear you. That is

the only way we ever get change Should sex at 15 be legal? The

politicians have said no, but an expert in public health said it is

time to lower the age of consent to make it eatsier to get sexual health

advice on the NHS. The professor says we have to accept that one

third of young people had sex at 15. Did you? It is OK, you can admit it.

Any of you, come on? A few of you. I was expecting a third, obviously.

Abbey, where is Abbey? You have got a question. Was David Cameron right

to reject calls to lower the age of consent to 15. Was he right to

reject those calls? I have a young daughter, who if I can't persuade

her to go to a convant the age of consent for her should go up to

about 50! But I appreciate that can't be public policy. I think it

is very difficult, the issue about the age of consent is that sexual

intercourse may lead to a baby. What you have to ask yourself is will the

parent be able to look after a child? And if you feel comfortable

with that, then at 15, then you could say that would be a reasonable

able of consent, if you think 15 is too young, then I think you should

say that the age of consent should remain higher. Although I quite

accept that very often babies don't result, they sometimes do. And you

have got to think of that life that may be created and the

responsibility that the parents would then have to that child.

Stella you are grimacing. This is why I got involved in the campaign

earlier this year to make sure sex and relationship education was

statutory in all schools. What worries me is one in three girls say

they have been sexually harassed in school. We teach young people about

all sorts of issues but not about consent, equality and respect. What

worried me about the health aspect saying people weren't able to access

information. That is not true. You want to talk about decisions we are

making as a society, the decision to make sure young people are thought

about the mechanics and the principles of respect and equality,

it worries me when we have these debate, teen pregnancy is an issue

but making sure everybody is confident about their bodies. One of

the things about the age of consent, a lot of people in the survey said

it was helpful for them being able to say no, at this point I don't

want to do that. When we are seeing young girls under that kind of

pressure, I'm keen to give them as much power and control over their

bodies as possible. LINEBREAK APPLAUSE

I will come to the rest of the panel. This had a huge response.

LAUSE If they are young and ready then they are more likely to go and

find protection, because it could be humiliating for them otherwise. The

lady below you. Sorry but your view there kind of sums up what I think,

sex is such a taboo subject and everyone is so scared of it, because

we are not educated about it. Saying people shouldn't have sex because

you are going to have babies is so ridiculous, the amount of

contraception is out there for girls, that is so absurd. We need it

to be an open subject to talk about. There is so much help for girls out

there, and boys too. By saying oh no hush, hush you will get pregnant.

How backwards is that. Sex is a natural thing, and it is something

that people should not be afraid about asking about and getting help

for. The gentleman here? We spend too much money sorting out the

problem of sex, such as chlamydia and all of this, we need to pump

more money in to the sexual education, start at year 6, not year

9. There is too much waiting until they are older, people are getting

sexually active when they are 12, having it at 15, that's when they

are starting to get the education. You need it before. I had when I was

11. That is the age limit that you have got to go to get the prevention

and to educate them at the contraceptive measures. Give them,

let them be aware that condoms are available. Get them earlier. The

lady with the hair? Why are we educating young girls about

contraception, we should be educating them into getting a career

and a future for themselves. That is absolutely ridiculous. Not mutually

exclusive. It is ridiculous, girls at 15 what on earth are they doing

having sex, I am 17 I haven't had sex and I'm proud to say it, do you

know why, because I want to better myself. We live in a country where

girls have so much opportunity they can better themselves. I came from

Thailand the other day, I stopped in Saudi Arabia, women can't even

drive, we are allowed to do so many things. Go out there, get an

education, get a proper job and educate our own selves to do better

with ourselves. No, no, no. Girls at the age of 15 they are still babies.

I have quite a few friends that have had babies at the age of 14 and 15,

they are babies, how can a baby educate a baby that is wrong.

This lady here? I have been a peer educator in sexual health for the

past two years, I think we are getting this conversation completely

wrong. Within I go to schools and colleges and youth clubs and

prevention clubs and I talk to young people about sex, the first thing I

tell them is I'm here to give you the correct information to make your

own decision. We shouldn't be talking about the decision they are

making we should be talking about giving them the correct information

to make those decisions. Sex education needs to be part of the

curriculum. Not just education, about relationships, about emotional

health and all of that, it needs to be part of the curriculum. We give

people information to make their own decisions the thing about sex and

the baby that is ridiculous. I like to say I think ultimately you have

to ask yourself what's the aim in lowering the consent, do we want

more younger people to have sex at a younger age. Because if it is it is

kind of backwards logic to me, because then you end up lowering the

driving limit, you end up lowering the alcohol limit just to balance

things out. It doesn't make sense to me. So keep it at 18, 21! ! Owen you

are a father? 21, blimey. At the end of the day people will have sex when

they are ready to have sex. Whatever the law says. I think if it was a

situation at the moment where 15-year-olds were being criminal --

criminalised for having sex with each other I would support it, but

it isn't happening. If people were prevented from getting education and

condoms then would want it. I have to challenge the audience. In the

United States when they have got rid of sex education in various states

and promoted abstinence instead, guess what happened, teenage

pregnancies and STIs went up. Because people weren't getting the

education they need. You have to be pragmatic about it. You said you

weren't ready, but that is your choice, if we deprive other people

of the education that they need so that they can make an informed

choice, people will still have sex, but they willened up maybe not

having safe sex, they will maybe put their own health at risk. Maybe they

will end up pregnant. You have to be pragmatic about it. If we don't

promote sex education we will have more children having children and

higher STIs. You can educate people about sex without lowering the age

of consent. I don't support it, we have come out of these horrendous

child abuse scandals recently. I'm a bit frustrated the conversation has

shifted, one of the good things that came out of that horrible Jimmy

Savile scandals is people were actually coming forward and sharing

their experiences. One of the big problems we face, and this is a

discussion we need to have is people who are abused as children often

can't come forward, they are often not believed, there is a very small

proportion of people who do come forward. We need to support them. I

think that's where the conversation should be. Not in terms of lowering

the age of consent, supporting people to come forward who have been

abused as children and that's a debate we need to be talking about.

I just think most age conditions are arbitary, you know there is no

evidence that, it is not fact should it be 16, 17, 15, I completely agree

with the rest of the panel. The issue for me isn't about 16, 15 or

17, it is preparing young people, young people, young men to

understand or to be able to make their own choices about when they

want to have sex, when they are ready to have sex. Honestly it is

not my business whether it is 14 or 21, as long as those people can make

those choices and they are prepared to make those choices. I do,

however, if you forced me to say how did I feel about the age of 16

whether it should be 16 or 15. I would say it should be 16. That is

because I think there is a level of protection. I think sometimes it

might help those young people to say no, no, no. It is not right yet. So

if I was forced to I would say that. It is not about that, it is about

education. This lady here? Hello. I just wanted

to, again reinforce the education thing. And I think what you guys are

all alluded to is the fact it is about education and it is not just

about the sex part, it is about the relationships. I currently work

with, I'm trying to work with young women my age 18, 19 who have been

through domestic violence relationships and ended up with two

kids. The thing is there is just not enough education about how to teach

young kids how to be productive adults. It is not just about the

mechanics of the contraception, and even the contraception, there isn't

enough education about that in my opinion. I mean do many people know

that there is a male contraceptive pill. Right now we are using

bulletproof vests rather than getting rid of the gun. It is kind

of ridiculous as it stands. Great analogy. It is overly focussed on

young women, it is not just about the sex. That is why I'm passionate

about getting sex and relationships. Right now we will teach them about

compound interest and composting but the Government refuses to put

consent the cirriculum for girls and boys. One in three young women

saying they are sexually harassed in school, that prevents them getting

an education. It is like saying that you can't access the information

until you are 16. You have a legal right to advice and you should

exercise that right and you can make your choices. A lot of big ideas in

here, we have to move on. What are people saying at home. An emotive

response. The power bar. We reset it at the

end of the voting debate. Deborah you were in the lead, Stella a close

second and you are still in the lead, Stella close behind. Well

done. Girl power! Let's change the subject again, latest unemployment

figures show the numbers of jobless 16-24-year-olds fell by 9,000 over

the summer. When we asked you to post the questions you wanted to put

our politicians on our social media sites, the issue of unemployment

came up again and again. Here are some of Westminster and Holyrood's

finest answering your questions. There is some sign of what we have

done, massive expansion of youth contracts, and apprenticeship, work

places, it is starting to make an impression. My own view is that one

of the things that we have failed to do so far is simplify the system. I

speak to so many young people where they go on to college or school or

university. They have so many different choices and so many

different schemes and budget lines and acronyms. It is a sort of

spaghetti junction of options. Day one of me as Prime Minister, I seek

to mobilise every business in this country behind getting young people

back to work. We said if you were in Government now we would be taxing

the bankers' bonuses and saying to every young person unemployed for

more than a year we will guarantee you a job with the minimum wage with

proper training. I think the first thing I would do is stop the

rhetoric from this Government that makes it sound as if it is their

fault as if they are sitting around want ago life on benefits. It is not

just the case of not having a job and income, it is about not having

hope. We would massively invest in apprenticeship, a massive investment

in jobs per se, we don't agree with the austerity programme. We think at

a time of economic difficulty that is the time when the Government does

need to invest. We have got the only, in Scotland, youth you

Employment Minister in Europe. We have the only person where it is her

responsibility, youth employment. We will guarantee every 16-19-year-old

if they are not in education, training or a job to be offered

training place. As a result youth unemployment in Scotland has fallen

25% in the last year. Since the last general election, 1. 4 million new

jobs have been created in the private sector. What the Government

has to do is create the tax regime to incentivise companies to invest

and take people on. A vibrant economy is the cure to youth

unemployment. OK we have a question from Steve. Where is Steve? What do

you want to ask? With the amounts of NEETS, young people not in education

or employment increasing, but think our education system is allowing

young people who are lazy to stay lazy and not look for work. Are we

allowing young people to stay lazy who are lazy? I don't know if you

can apply that is As a general question. I spent my life living in

rural areas and London. It is very hard for young people to find work.

I don't divide them into whether they are on long-term been fits, it

doesn't matter, we are failing to get young people into work. That

starts with education. That means that people are being led to the

wrong place or being offered the right opportunities in the right

types of jobs, they are not ready to take up jobs. In my rural

communities they are taught to do things, they are on apprenticeships

with no hope of a job at the end of it. That has to be completely wrong.

To me, I park the benefits issue. I actually think most young people

don't get up in the morning thinking, well actually maybe I got

up in the morning Iing this I don't want to d -- morning thinking I

don't want to do anything. Most young people want a career, they

actually do want to work f they find themselves trapped in benefits that

is our fault, not their fault. I think ultimately the problem with

employment is that people work 9-5 all the hours God sends, and

basically just making enough money to cover their bills. So it is not

an incentive for people to go out searching to try to get a 9-5 job 40

hours a week, when I'm only able to barely live. So there has to be some

kind of adjustment on that side to where, if people do go out and spend

all the hours working they actually get to live a fairly luxurious life,

because they put the hours in. So whatever your trade I think. There

is more to work than money. And I know, please don't criticise me for

saying that. Please don't, I'm a millionaire of course I would say

that. The truth is that you feel better when you are doing something,

you are achieving something, and actually if you go out and start

doing something where you are not earning enough money, before you

know it you take your next step. I started with no money and I started

earning tuppence but I went out and I did it, I felt better. That is my

point. It is not just about the money. Particularly when you are

young. You have got to start on a path that says I'm going to make my

life for myself. And not just wait for it to happen. Of course I

understand totally, a lot of people do have that principle. But if for

years and years you continue to go out there and work for work's sake

and there is no savings, there is no way for me to feed my children,

there is no way, I can't send my children to university, there is

still problems I face, it doesn't make sense. I'm talking about young

people at the start of their career, if you are working you feel better.

Just in terms it of the question, I'm sick to death of unemployed

people generally being blamed, sorry, for a massive unemployment

crisis that Government after Government are responsible for. We

have got a million young people now who are out of work. We have a

situation in this country where the majority of people in poverty are

people in work, this idea that work is almost the route of poverty and

it is not true. The reason it is a scandal, we have 66 young people

chasing every single vacancy in retail and shops, where is the Sun

and Daily Mail hunting down these young people sending CV after CV and

no response. The reason it is a scandal is if you are young and

unemployed you are more likely to be unemployed in later life and have

lower wages. That is why we need for example a house building programme

to sort out the housing crisis but also create lots of jobs. We need to

learn from other countries like Germany, where they have taken on

the environmental cries by creating hundreds of thousands of renewable

energy jobs, which are jobs that people have dignity, they are

skilled and paid a decent wage. The argument needs to be not just

kicking young people, and the debate about how to kick young people

harder and take state support away from them. The argument is how to

create skills to take on the housing and environmental crisis,

politicians are failing to do that. You say politicians are failing to

do that the on-line community are giving a kicking

A lot of hands. In the green jumper? Yes, you were saying about young

people working and it makes them feel better working, that's not true

not necessarily. If you are put into a job where you don't enjoy it, you

are only doing it to pay for yourself to go enough to pay for

your travel as a young person. We don't get much pay. Some of my

friends earn ?4. 95 an hour, it is OK but it is only enough to pay for

a certain amount. You want to get into, some people want to finish

school and get straight into the working environment to pay, like, I

wish just to go into work and get enough to pay for myself to actually

get good things, be able to get a car, instead of going on Transport

for London. It is a question of trying to fund that to make wages

higher. I think firstly I think that, I work with a charity and we

get a lot of young people who have degrees, masters degrees, who don't

know how to write a decent CV. I think employment skills used to be

put into a curriculum at an earlier age. To come back to Deborah's

point, at the end of the day the definition of slavery is working all

day and only enough to feed and clothe yourself. Why are young

people being forced into slave labour jobs? I completely agree with

Owen. I work for UK Youth Climate Coalition, we are looking at green

jobs, there is so many brilliant opportunities. This Government

incentivised solar panels and we saw a brilliant boom, we saw young

people being put into apprenticeships and people getting

sustainable skills, and yet that investment has been cut, green jobs

are now taboo in this current Government. We're seeing an

opportunity for investment and for something sustainable in a long

period of growth it will be completely removed and ignored.

Myself, I do agree what Deborah was saying about how some people enjoy

the work they are doing. For myself, I have always been involved in youth

work, I decided even though I'm not getting paid for it I will do it

because I enjoy it. Through that, once I finish I set up my own

charity, I set up a homeless shelter in Brixton. I did that myself, not

getting paid, even though everyone is talking about money, money,

money, I think may main thing is if it is something you enjoy you will

do, and you might get rewards afterwards. Your main first protocol

do what you want to do first and not always jump for money and see how

you can get this and that. You should be paid for it properly. I

want to commend what you have done. Take this as another counter point

quickly, because we have so many people working for poverty wages, it

actually costs the taxpayer, because we end up lining the bosses pockets

with tax credits. Most people on benefits are people in work, we are

doing that because people like yourself are slogging your guts out

and not getting paid possibly. We need to address that because it

costs us all. There is clearly a problem with youth unemployment in

this country, as there is a problem with unemployment, and nearly 2. 5

million people in Britain are out of work. I do believe that those people

want to be on benefits. I think the overwhelming majority, young or old,

want jobs, want to be looking after themselves, and their families. What

can Government do about it? What Government can do is set out the

framework for the economy. . They can can try to make sure the economy

is stable and make sure businesses are there and it is easy to take

people on. That is where Government policy should be directed. The other

thing we have to do is recognise we are in a highly competitive world

against places like India and China that weren't competing with us 20 or

30 years ago, to compete with them we need a better educated work force

that is able to take on high-paid, high-value jobs. I don't want to

compete with India on shoe manufacturing. Because that's not

going to be where the money is. That will not provide a standard of

living for British people that will be acceptable. So we need knowledge

jobs and those will come if the Government is successful with

Michael Gov, he's reforms are put in. And we need a tax system that

allows people to employ people. This is where there are strong

differences between myself and Jacob about what you can do about it. I

share his analysis that the future is about competing in a global

economy. Owen is right there are 66 young people chasing every single

job, that is really hard going. One of the things that really concerns

me, we talk about a million young people being unemployed. Some of

those young people have been out of work for more than two years, in

fact we have seen a three-foaled increase of young people out of work

for two years. It is a difference being out of work for a few weeks or

months than two years. Your skills are out of date, employers ask for

gaps in your CVs. There is so much more Government could do, that is

the challenge. That is the potential n that global economy unless we get

young people to achieve what they can achieve we won't be able to

compete. It is not just about the tax and regulatory regime, it is

about the things like the Future Jobs Fund, guarnteeing jobs to make

sure those young people have the skills to compete. It is about

quality apprenticeships, we have talked about that, over the last

year the ones created are going to over-25-year-old, we are cutting off

potential before it has an opportunity to achieve what it can

do. Deborah I agree with you, work has to be about passion and

commitment. I'm here because I'm passionate, but I also recognise

that prices have risen twice as fast assuages in the last couple of

years. That gap for people, that too much money at the end of the month.

Deborah listen, what matters to these young people is if they can't

take opportunity, in my local community we have a youth

unemployment black spot. The gentleman is talking about travel,

you are earn ?1 a week as an apprentice but ?35 a week for your

travelcard, you can see why where the money is going. We have to help

them get on the first step of the rung. And if not we will have a load

generation of potential. You completely misunderstanding, my

point is benefits, if it was a choice about doing nothing and

staying on he benefits or going out and working, even if it is not the

wage you want, I believe you have got to work. You two can talk

afterwards, we have to find out what people at home are saying. Lots of

comments coming in: APPLAUSE Tax cuts, tax avoidance for

the rich, corporations and low wages for the rest of us. Deborah and

Stella neck and neck on the debate. Overall tonight Deborah you have won

the final Power of 2013, you have the final 20 seconds to have your

say. I wasn't expecting to win. Can I just tell you how invigourating it

is to sit here and how wonderful it is to sit here and see how engaged

all of these people in this room are, because this is exactly what

needs to drive politics. Coming from you, not waiting for the politicians

to tell you, you to tell the politicians. It is very

invigourating, thank you. That is almost it, thank you very much for

our invigourating audience, our panel, to parliament, and you at

home for sending in your comments. The debate continues on-line as

ever. This is the last Free Speech of 2013, we will be back next year.

In the meantime we will lead you with Britain's leading politicians

telling us what free speech means to them. It is about the ability to

change things and in a democracy. We debate about freedom of speech and

whether you can say one thing or another, and whether expressing one

view to the offence of another person should be allowed or not, but

we just don't appreciate how amazing it is that we can express ourselves

freely. Free speech means saying what you want even if it offends

people. It is an opportunity, a programme like this is one of the

few opportunities in the conventional media, newspapers and

television where there is that opportunity. Free speech means to me

that everyone can feel confident in saying what they think and believe.

In particular it means when you are in a group of people who you know

don't agree with you having the courage still to say what you think

and what you believe.