03/05/2012 Hearts and Minds

Hello and welcome to the programme. Coming up this week, the

politicians have their say on the latest revelations about clerical

sex abuse and the role of Cardinal Brady in dealing with it. Is the

continuing scandal hastening the day when women come to the fore in

all aspects of Catholicism? How the recession is driving more families

to charity food banks. And luring home the Irish diaspora, but what

about the Prods? The controversy engulfing the

Catholic primate Cardinal Shaun Payne if to the political turn to

them both sides of the border. -- Cardle Sean Brady. The Irish Prime

Minister said anyone who did not deal with the extent of child sex

abuse should not hold a position of authority and Alastair Macdonald

has said bluntly the cardinal should go. He is with me now. Mr

McDonnell, why is it so clear cut for you? It is not so clear cut, I

cannot recall saying he should go, I don't know where that came from.

I have made some blunt comments. The issue is Brendan Smyth was a

very evil man and had an appalling track record and ruined a lot of

lives and is still running lives. Let me stop you, you said there

Cardinal Brady in 2010 met the criteria. You think he should

resign. That is right, it is up to him to possess his position.

have said he should resign. It is up to him to reassess his position.

I am not running or managing the Catholic Church or anywhere else.

By a politician, a practising Catholic, the father of four young

children, I am acutely sensitive to the issues raised by this programme

last night. I have talked to a lot of people today and a lot of people

are distressed and concerned. It is not an issue for stunts or gimmicks

or demands for resignation, it is an issue that has to be taken

deadly seriously. Lives have been ruined. There are victims to have

been severely hurt. The point I was making is that Brendan Smyth, as a

result of the mishandling of events in 1975, Brendan Smyth was allowed

to continue for a number of years. A lot of the blame has to rest with

the order that he was involved in and some of them should be coming

forward. A want to make it clear, using the criteria set by the

cardinal himself two years ago have been met, you think it is time he

went? In my opinion and -- under the opinion of a lot of people, the

criteria he said, that he would resign if they were met, and people

feel they have been met. I'm glad we have cleared that up. Martina

Anderson, for Sinn Fein, Martin McGuinness called for his

resignation two years ago but fell short of that today, he said he

should consider his position. Why hasn't he gone further? I think

Martin McGuinness's position has been clear. He says he should

consider the wisdom of his position, which was the position laid out

yesterday, that he should resign and I would agree. I think the

criteria that he said for resignation has been fulfilled and

I don't think there are any space in this society for anyone to

conceal child sex abuse, in fact conceal child rape. Jonathan Del

and buyers junior ministers have been involved in engaging with

victims and survivors of historical institutional abuse and we have

heard harrowing, heart-wrenching stories from those victims about

what happened to them and their childhood. The Cardinal has spoken

of his sense of betrayal that this happened, that this continued to

happen. He has been praised within the Church for the ceaseless work

he has done in recent years to make sure it did not happen again. What

purpose would be served by his resignation? Well, I believe that

his reputation will -- I believe the his reputation will damage done

to him personally because of what has happened and what has been

revealed. When we look at the courage Brendan Boland, a 14-year-

old child, and let's not forget in the middle of this a child who

actually went to a priest in the first instance and that priest took

that child to his father and did the right thing by doing that and I

was absolutely paint when I listen to that programme, that documentary

-- paint, as I believe are many Catholics, of which I am one. And I

know many good priests in our society who are also hurting as a

result of the reputation. Do you not think the Cardinal is hurting?

Absolutely, he must be, and therefore because of that I believe

he should do as Martin McGuinness has suggested he should do, he

should reconsider and look at the wisdom of the position that he

adopted. There is a lot of pain and hurt in the Catholic tradition

because of what happened. Jonathan Bell from the DUP has here now. We

were talking about political stunts, your party has been said to have a

political stunt bike getting your party to write to the Chief

Constable to ask him to pursue a possible criminal case against the

cardinal. Why? I think this is a major issue today, not only in

Northern Ireland but also in the Republic of Ireland, right across

the UK news of an issue of the next magnitude and significance. What,

as somebody who has worked with children who have been sexually

abused for 21 years and my professional life, I have seen the

after-effects of sexual abuse in the self-harm, in the young people

who sell the beast that ties with drugs and alcohol, in broken

relationships and this failure to sustain jobs and the long life term

trauma and the life sentence but it gives to children. What it has

raised to date is a concern that was first raised by the SDLP on

Good morning Ulster this morning, which is that we have clear

legislation from 1967 which states very clearly that if you are aware

of a criminal offence of which child sexual abuse and child rape

is clearly one of the most significant criminal offences, it

is your duty to pass it on to a constable and for that to be

properly investigated. Failure to do so is a criminal offence. Father

Smyth had not been convicted of criminal offence in 1975. If you

are aware of a criminal offence having occurred, child sexual abuse

is unlawful, it is illegal. If you are aware it has occurred then it

is your duty to pass that on to the police for investigation and is is

now for the police to go where the evidence leads them. Nobody is

above the law. We are all equal to the law. The message must go out

very clearly that anybody, in whatever walk of life, if they are

aware of child sexual abuse it is their duty to pass that on to the

police, to have it investigated as a joint protocol investigation and

failure to do so is a major error. We do not have a monopoly on rights.

I spent years as a GP, I am fully aware that with many children who

had been abused and helped support them and get them on their feet and

get their life together. This is a very serious, sober issue. We don't

need to dramatise it. It is not dramatising it, to ask

the justice committee of the Assembly. It was a stunt, quite

frankly understand by that. The point is this. I am sorry if you

think it's a stunned. He is pointing out the criminal law of

1967, it is the duty of every person who believes an offence has

been committed to give the information to a constable.

accept that. Why is it a stunt? There are ways of dealing with

these things, there are issues dealt with every day. It is about

publicity, today. This issue is very sober, very sensible, needs to

be fashionably dealt with and children need to be protected at

all costs. -- rationally dealt with. If there has been a crime, it will

be dealt with in due course. Calmly and rationally. But let's not

convict anybody here. On speculation. We have to be rational

here. All of us including Cardinal Brady are subject to the law. I

think we have to do that and we cannot jump to conclusions. Asking

the police to investigate is not jumping to conclusions. Do you

believe it is a political stump? stunt will stop I don't believe the

committee has the responsibility to refer anything to the PSNI, it is a

scrutinising committee, and defeat was to embark upon that kind of

journey I think the committee would be doing little else but hearing

cases on having the referred. I think the way we managed it today

and the Executive, there was a discussion, a wind going to the

details, but we had a discussion with the justice Mr and the him to

be giving whatever consideration he has to give and Jonathan and I know

the her tanned the pain that is out there in our community and in our

society and you know, I just think we need to be very sensitive to

that this evening. What purpose do you think would be served by the

resignation of the cardinal? think, I'm not going to go down

there, but my concern is this, that a lot of people because Cardinal

Sean Brady is a very decent man, an honourable man, I spent a good deal

to date said -- with a Protestant man who said he was a very

honourable man and there was a problem two years ago, he was given

the benefit of the doubt. The difficulty is now a lot of

committed, genuine practising Catholics are now feeling in

despair and frustrated that this bite. It is a difficult... Is there

a danger it becomes a witch-hunt and it is hard to find a

replacement cardinal who had not in some way been involved in some way

in dealing with some kind of child sex abuse? I agree with you

entirely and we have to move very cautiously and slowly. It is not a

question of jumping to conclusions. All I am telling you is all day

today I was meeting with people who are genuine, honest, sincere people,

and they are in despair and they feel bewildered and betrayed that

this demon has come back to haunt us again. People at the end of the

day, the issue is not about me and not about any of us in this studio,

it is about children who need protection. Is this an issue that

should be left to the Catholic Church? Yes, I am a Protestant,

member of a Protestant church, and it is for the Roman Catholic Church

to decide what was be the central focus, the children. So why go

there just is committee involved? What we are looking at his is clear

from the 1967 legislation, anybody aware of any criminal offence and I

have said anybody and any criminal offence, has a duty to pass that on

because when information is not passed on often it can lead to

children being multiplies abused so it is time for the police to look

at the evidence and go where it Are we facing into a Catholic

Spring? It's possible. Last Sunday 200 people picketed the home of the

Papal Nuncio to Ireland. That wouldn't have been particularly

surprising given the scale of animosity against the institutional

church but this protest was organised by priests. We haven't

seen anything like that before. And in the next few days, priests will

convene a conference in Dublin to discuss setting up an assembly of

the Catholics of Ireland. They are not asking the permission of

bishops this time. The revolutionary ardour, if that is

what it is, is driven by several things. There is the humiliation of

priests like Brian Darcy and others who have aired their personal

opinions. Priests, it seems aren't supposed to have personal opinions.

The Association of Catholic Priests has conducted its own survey to ask

the Catholics of Ireland what they really believe and they have worked

out that it differs greatly from what Rome teaches in relation to

the ordination of women and the celibate priesthood. Well, the

straight-laced faithful say, the word of God isn't up for debate.

You don't take a vote on it, the truth never changes. That's Rome's

line. More incessantly than ever the Pope is saying, you are in or

you are out, you buy the whole package or you can go and accept

that you are a Protestant and be done with it. And there is

animosity growing in the country with even priests writing blog

entries raking up Benedict's Nazi past in the Hitler Youth Movement,

accusing him of a blitzkreig against the liberals in the church.

This is all heavy stuff. But what can it lead to? Well, one

possibility is that the priests will be cowed as they have been

before, that the scale of the challenge before them will prove to

be too great. They can protest nicely, call their pickets vigils

and plead with the Pope to be gentle with them, or they can

assert firmly that they will break this church in two again rather

than have it crush them. Their problem is that priests who accept

further humiliation will be no use to anyone. We have the perfect

reminder at the head of the church of what happens when a priest only

does what he is told. Sean Brady is an example to every priest of the

pathetic outcome of a slavish obedience and the denial of reason

and conscience. The other possibility is that priests who

simply can't stomach the church in its present form will just leave.

That is what most of them do already. And then what? Then we run

so low on priests that we hardly ever see them. Local churches will

be run by lay committees which means by women. They will lead

eucharistic services and the available priest will drop by once

a month. And the link to Rome by which the pure message is conveyed

intact to a docile and penitent people will be broken anyway. Go

into a Catholic church on a Saturday night or a Sunday morning

in Belfast or Galway or Derry or Cork in ten years from now and you

can be sure that the person at the front delivering the homily and

blessing the babies will be a woman. There are already more women than

men studying theology in Ireland. So the Irish Spring may fail and

Rome may run out of priests on the ground because it couldn't get

enough men as spineless as Sean Brady to do its bidding. But still

thousands will still call themselves Catholic and go to

church, and the utterly changed church that they dream of will be

The thoughts of Malachi O'Doherty. The recession is driving more and

more people into poverty and among the hardest hit are households with

people in work. The latest research from the Rowntree Foundation shows

that now half of the 120,000 children deemed to be in poverty

live with a working parent. And for those families, the price of food

You cannot help but notice the cost of food has rocketed, many people

complaining the weekly shopping seems to cost twice as much as

three years ago. What you may not realise is an increasing number of

families in Northern Ireland, even families in work, are struggling to

feed their children, having to rely on food donations. There are people

in need of food and we have to respond. People who are in the past

were in position to subscribe and to mate are actually coming to as

seeking help and assistance. -- and to donate. It is an indictment of

the welfare system that the safety net has broken down to that extent.

These might look like the shelves of a supermarket warehouse, but

this is a church in Newtownards. The food bank is run by the

thriving life, taking donations from the public and distributing

them. The Trust organises food banks in the UK and Bulgaria. Here

in Northern Ireland, volunteers say they have been bowled over by the

demand. We have been running out for just over six months, starting

at Christmas, initially thinking that, the food stores here would

see us through to February comfortably and were astonished to

find it only lasted a few weeks. Since that, the increase in the

uptake has been phenomenal. We're going through what you see in the

store in one month. And what you say is a ton of food, literally,

and no longer going to people just the Newtownards. We have had people

in Bangor, right through to the out rut -- right through to the about

relying area, seeing an overwhelming need out there. This

scheme is supported by a local network of businesses, churches and

volunteers, now having around 90 operations, increasing from six.

could be the likes of me or you coming in, it could be anybody, we

have had people who have lost their business, through no fault of their

own. One minute people have money, the next minute having nothing.

Those people may not be able to get benefits on a certain period of

time, so from that point of view, and even just a simple as being

made redundant and put you on the breadline that day. -- can put you.

And there are many charities arranging food donations. The

Society of St Vincent the Paul is the largest charity on the Ireland

of Ireland. In 2010, in Northern Ireland, it spent more than

�360,000 on food hampers. You may have heard recently older people

saying, you have a choice of heat what eating. More and more young

families face the same crisis. -- a choice of heating or eating. It is

a balancing act for many. When you come into the summer months, what

is your priority? Is it heat or food? During those months, we would

see that the need for food is essential. This year, there has

been a 14% increase in calls, many from people never helped before.

are talking, obviously, of people struggling on benefits, people

struggling on low incomes, and people who are employed, those who

have been employed and an now unemployed or put on short time.

People struggling because of pay freezes, yet the cost of living

continues to increase. People reluctant to come to us, but

ultimately, find they have no alternatives. Food donations may be

something associated with down and out, but many families getting this

help have an adult working. A new report from the Joseph Rowntree

Foundation has found that poverty in working households in Northern

Ireland has increased since 2009. Those monitoring poverty say it is

an indictment of the welfare system. What people doing, doing in-depth

interviews with families, discovering that people are

juggling resources and between adults and children. Juggling with

then family networks. If you do not have those networks, if you were

socially isolated or your family moved abroad, what do people do?

People go hungry, beg for food, or quoted food banks, which are

beginning to be more common in Northern Ireland. Back in

Newtownards, a work is continuing to pack up food parcels. But while

all these volunteers were happy to speak to us, the people benefiting

from the service would not appear on camera. It is an indication of

just how embarrassing many find it to admit they cannot afford enough

food. Julia Paul reporting. On the face

of it, encouraging people with Irish roots to return to the auld

sod seems like a good idea, a useful stimulus to tourism in these

hard times, the idea behind, an initiative -- the idea behind The

Gathering, an initiative supported by the Irish Government, tourist

bodies and the public and private sectors. But it ran foul of

Unionists in the Assembly, one calling it a Mother Ireland concept.

Here is a clip of the promotional One of your party colleagues made

the comment about Mother Ireland and leprechauns and colleges -- and

cottages. You would have had to look hard to see traditional images

of Irish Times? It looked at me like a vibrant Irish Republic.

think he spoke about how historically images seem to be

about Dublin rather than Northern Ireland. Thankfully, tourism has

been better at marketing Northern Ireland, which is good as we have a

fantastic production. So why not throw your weight behind The

Gathering? This has been an understanding. The idea came from

the Irish Government, from the Clinton global initiative, which we

were told about 24 hours before it was released. We were not involved.

This is simply, we were not asked to be involved. But you were asked.

There was a motion. If it is about all of Ireland, that is a good

video, but not one image from Northern Ireland. Yes, and the fact

is, just the correct some points, I understand the Irish Government

wrote to Northern Ireland to ask for involvement, which would have

allowed the promotions and video clips to include the North of

Ireland and in particular aspects of it which the Tourism Minister

wanted to promote. Next year, we have some games... Why not do that

anyway? I am sure people would have done it, but there would have been

a row if the Northern Ireland were not asked. Northern Ireland were

asked, the Minister was asked, to lend her support and participate in

activities. The motion on Monday was very clearly in the billing the

Unionist parties to support this initiative, to call in the Minister

to join with the Irish Government in appealing to the 70 million

people worldwide who claimed I Irish heritage. Whether or not the

Minister was asked, she said she was not in twisted in supporting it.

Obviously, tourism Ireland promotes tourism across the whole Ireland of

Ireland. We want to make sure our Ireland stands out. I do not think

we need to call on the back of anybody. This is a fantastic year

for tourism. We have had thousands of people going to the Titanic

centre, Entries for the giants Causeway visitors' centre.

interest. But any money spent his arm bonus for Ireland. Why risk

some people being alienated to the point of not coming north? We are

not alienating anybody. Anybody coming for The Gathering is great.

Do you still want to be officially part of it? The Gathering is not

just about tourism, but also about the economy, getting more jobs to

the Republic of Ireland. The Republic of Ireland are our

competitors and it would be better for jobs in my constituency. That

would be rather than the Republic of Ireland. We have to recognise

the competitive element. The tenure of the debate was entirely

different. It was very clear that the backbenchers in the DUP in

particular do not like anything that old rotten North and South

links. That is not true. -- that will strengthen links between North

and South. There are many people unemployed and we need to help.

There was discussion about the SDLP pushing an All Ireland agenda. Was

that the tenure of the debate? is the political ideology of the

SDLP. We have no problems with working with Tourism Ireland. We

have additional funding to make sure we have a standard product,

but must remember, in Northern Ireland, this year and next year,

what the Londonderry city of culture and other events, we have

massive potential. We do not have to go on the back of anyone. If we

benefit from The Gathering, that is great, but let us not undersell

ourselves. If nationalists on Derry City Council had taken the same

attitude to the bed for Derry to be the UK City of counter -- UK City

of Culture, where would we be? Peter Robinson has said how he

wants to end a them and us culture, building a Shared Future under

reconciled future. This has turned into a big row there was no need

for, because of small-mindedness within the DUP. Most people

elsewhere in the world do not know or care much about Northern Ireland

and the Republic, so why risk confusing potential visitors?

are not risking confusing visitors. Tourism Ireland promotes Ireland

outside of Ireland. There was talk about taking out the specific

identity of Northern Ireland. That will just confuse people. We have a

remarkable product in Northern Ireland and want to sell Northern

Ireland to get more tourists. If people get confused, people will

automatically go to Dublin, so we are trying to say we have fantastic

products in Northern Ireland, a unique product. People recognise

that Titanic brand, second only to Coca-Cola, I think. So why aren't

you or urging organisers of The Gathering to have another event to

embrace the Ulster and Scots culture? There are opportunities to

do that and we will raise that with the Irish Government, but it has

not been a good start, with the Minister refusing to get involved

and the debate a loud to debate the potential of The Gathering, which

descended into a row that was unnecessary. Thank you both indeed.

That is where we leave it. We are back next week at the usual time.

Goodbye. A mile and visible? Some carry on

this week. -- Anne invisible? And was the phone hacking anything to

do what Rupert Murdoch? Absolutely not. And what about the Catholic?