26/04/2012 Hearts and Minds

Hello and welcome to Hearts And Minds. Coming up on the programme:

Protecting the innocent - is the Executive doing enought to make

sure children don't suffer through welfare reform?

Protecting the past - are we vandalising our architectural

heritage? The inmates left, but the officers

stayed - cleaning up the "mess" of prison reform.

And should we be able to sack our MPs mid-term if they're dishonest,

The government's welfare reform is designed to make the system less

complex and for -- and to make it pay for people to go to work. The

children's Commission is urging the Executive to make special provision

to protect children. With me are Patricia Lewsley-Mooney. The

You your recent report talks about the reforms hitting 6,500 children.

He says, you have just made that up. I think it is important to note

that this report, while the minister will admit there is a

broad range of issues with regards welfare reform, this report has

been as comprehensive as it possibly can. The issue was we went

to the department and we asked for the data that they had. As a result,

the minister's department told us that there were 1300 families, with

five children or more, who would be affected by this benefits cap. That

is where you get the 6,500. In fact, it could be more than that because

some children -- some families have more than five children. They are

not making it up. It is clear if you look at the report, there is no

inclusion of data, of tables, or figures, of explanation. It's

simply makes clear claims, which we believe are unfounded. The trees of

the matter is that under welfare reform, and particularly the core

element of Universal Credit, 10,000 children in Northern Ireland will

be taken out of poverty. Those are the figures we have got from the

Department for Work and Pensions in London. They say in Northern

Ireland it will be 10,000 children taken out of poverty. That is an

important aspect of the figures and it is not mentioned in the report.

Do you accept that? It is dependent on whether the parents get a job.

The issue is, when we here early on this week that we have now hit the

double-dip recession, that the opportunity for many of those to

get employment is going to be much more difficult. The statistics that

we have given, and these numbers, have come from the information that

we got from the department. Where do you get 10,000 from? Is it an

aspirational figure? No, indeed. There is a modelling system that

the Department for Work and Pensions has developed which allows

you to calculate the changes that there will be within welfare reform.

There are good elements within welfare reform. There are less but

the developments. There are elements we have problems with. We

need to look at the thing in totality. This report is partial,

it is flawed, it doesn't have a strong basis. If we are going to

have the debate about welfare reform, and the conversation over

the next number of months, it is important it is based on facts and

figures that we can stand over. We are keen to engage with a wide

range of stakeholders. We are already doing that through our

stakeholders forum. We have the Executive sub-committee on welfare

reform. The suggestion that children have not been visible in

those conversations is simply nonsense. Are you saying not

visible, or not visible enough? am saying they have not been

visible. We wrote to the Minister saying, had he taken the children

into consideration under his assessment? He wrote back and said

there because the department did not have the data. -- he said no.

We said we would do the research. We were trying to find out where

the gaps were, the critical issues that would impact on these children

were talking about tonight. And he welcomed that. He has seen the

reports before they were published, we have asked for a meeting with

the minister, which we will have, and we will discuss this further. I

would not be doing my job properly if I wasn't speaking up for

children and young people in Northern Ireland, and identifying

critical areas that I believe the minister and the Executive and the

committee of social development don't take into consideration.

want to come back on a couple of things. We are still negotiating

with the Department for Work and Pensions and the Treasury around a

number of these issues. Until we get the final figures from a

Majesty's Revenue & Customs, it will be impossible to work out the

total impact in Northern Ireland for welfare reform. The issue

around the 6,500, I don't see the basis for that. There is no

explanation in the report. We only received the report a couple of

days ago. My officials are going through it. Whatever there is that

is helpful, we could take out of it. Some of the comments, the word

horror, that was used in the press release by the commissioner, I

think that is alarmist, unhelpful, and creates concerns that don't

contribute to a constructive discussion. You are accusing the

Children's Commissioner of being alarmist? You could put it that way

for. When I have met parents who are alarmed at the prospect of what

is going to happen to them, when I have met the parents who are

working, who are on low incomes, and the impact that these cuts are

going to have on their families, I don't believe I am alarmist. I have

to say, I was myself alarmed this afternoon at the seminar that we

had to launch these two reports, that we have food banks set up

across community and voluntary organisations in Belfast that are

actually giving out as we talk. What do you want the minister to do

that he is not going to do? I would like to see the bill, and I welcome

that the Bill is now going to go through the house and it is going

to go to the committee, through the scrutiny, and that you use some of

the information that we have given you. What must the Executive do?

They must ensure they protect the most vulnerable in our society.

how? To ensure that this doesn't impact any worse than it already

well did on the other people and the children that we know this is

With all respect, those comments are simply back to us. -- vacuous.

The Executive sub-committee is working closely with the Social

Security Agency, the Department for Work and Pensions and others to

make sure we bring forward maximum flexible possibilities to mitigate

against but a notable events that there will be in Northern Ireland -

- against detriment to balk -- We have already announced that it

will be taken forward by full scrutiny, which I think shows how

the commission is out of touch with the facts on this issue. You are

not just alarmist but also out of touch? I welcome the fact that has

now been made public. It was made public quite some time ago.

welcome the fact it is going to happen. I am saying that we wanted

to take some of the issues that we have raised in these reports and

consider them, which you have agreed that you will. The question

is not raising issues, the question is how you find solutions. What I

find missing are realistic solutions. It says you should be

working with mortgage lenders to help people with housing benefit

reductions, if they have to move to a cheaper area. You should be

dealing directly with mortgage lenders. He should be working to

bring down the cost of rents from private landlords. But that's

something you are going to do? -- is that something question of

Will be possibly one of the effects of those changes. But it is

impossible to go in and say to particular landlords, you're going

to charge this rent, that rent. There are number of suggestions in

the report that are impossible, because they are matters reserved,

matters for Westminster. HMRC issues for example. There are other

suggestions which we are already doing. I am disappointed by the

report. It was an opportunity that I think those who prepare the

report... How far are you prepared to go? We are supposed to have

parity with other areas of the United Kingdom but there is a thing

called stretched parity. To what extent do you think you can do that

to protect children? We have asked all the political parties in the

Executive, through the sub- committee, to bring forward

suggestions of areas where there might be flexibility. That will not

be any breach of parity. It will be operational flexibility. We have

identified four or five areas that have been talked about already, in

regard to single payments, direct payment to landlords as opposed to

payments to the individual. The issues around monthly payments and

so on. I have discussed those in detail with Iain Duncan Smith, with

David Freud, with the officials at Westminster. Those things are being

worked on already. Some of the ideas in this report are bizarre.

Your party voted against excluding child benefit from the benefit cap,

will that help children? benefit cap is �26,000. If you take

that as a gross pay, roughly �35,000. In many ways, it is a

reasonable income. There are many folk working full-time in Northern

Ireland earning a lot less. don't think your vote will damage

children in any way? The benefit cap is one that my party voted for

in Westminster. I find a lot of support for it in Northern Ireland.

The average wage is 23,000. Have you got more work to do? We all

have more work to do and I want to work with the minister and the

department to ensure that the most vulnerable in Northern Ireland...

Prison is the major institution here that missed reform in the Good

Friday Agreement - a costly mistake. Repeated inquiries in recent years

- accelerated when prisoners killed themselves - have shown up a system

that's shambolic, expensive and probably discriminating - careless

towards the most vulnerable, women and the young, non-English-speakers.

But the effort to replace the old order of mainly Protestant, male

officers with a smaller staff, better mixed, has met tough

resistance. A service that came through the fire - 29 violent

deaths in the Troubles, republicans responsible for all but two

officers killed by the UVF - was never going to volunteer lay-offs

in peace-time. A governor of Maghaberry left after five months,

the Prisons Ombudsman, Pauline McCabe, finding it probable that

details of his car were planted by a prison officer in a republican's

cell "to encourage the governor to Dissident protests about strip

searches arrived into an already fractious, uncoordinated overhaul.

Now a Director of Prison Services, appointed just over a year ago, has

left again. No loss, says veteran head of the Prison Officers'

Association, Finlay Spratt. "Long battles of attrition", says a

despairing official report. Mr Spratt instead sees "a mess" that's

"dismantled" the service. You'd never have guessed there are

sizeable payoffs. DUP voices, mainly concerned about local

employment, are gearing up to block plans to close Magilligan and

replace it nearer Maghaberry. Yet the prisons have more staff than

inmates. To put it bluntly, the problem is that warders stayed, and

prisoners left. Early release freed many who committed terrible crimes

after a very few years. It's two- and-a-half times more expensive to

house a prisoner than elsewhere in the UK. The years of soldiers on

guard and rings of steel had a huge cost in financial and human terms.

Everyone knows the photographs of the Nissen huts of Long Kesh;

tanned prisoners in their own self- governing communities: burly

loyalists, smiling long-haired republicans, the twists provided by

later events - little Denis Donaldson alongside the tall, young

Bobby Sands. No work, no cells, no lockup; bravado and escapes - and

the misery of hunger-strikes. Prisoners and their extended

families provided an engine of continuing violence, the numbers

huge on both sides. The social damage is unquantifiable, and

lasting. On the plus side, some inside seized the chance of

education. In republican and some loyalist areas, being an ex-

prisoner still has status. Northern Ireland's prison population

multiplied by four from the late 1960s to almost 3,000 in 1978. That

shrank to less than 1,000 as peace took hold, then rose again to

today's 1,400-odd. But we still have a smaller proportion of the

population locked up than anywhere nearby except Scandinavia; half

that of England and Wales. Prison Officers in Britain, and elsewhere,

fight off inquiries and reforms. No wonder there are problems here -

the shame is that even suicide and scandal hasn't forced a thorough

Conservationists have been reeling at the announcement by the

Environment Minister that the Athletic Stores building in Belfast

is to be demolished. The building is a former linen warehouse - part

of Belfast's history that features extensively in the new Titanic

exhibition. So if Government wants to encourage tourists to come and

learn about our past, shouldn't we be preserving it? Julia Paul

In case you hadn't heard, Belfast is the place to be. This month, the

City's Welcome Centre has recorded its most successful two weeks ever.

Well, it is the kind of weather that most tourists seem to

experience when they come to Belfast, but it is clear that this

new �97 million centre is already becoming a tourist attraction.

Inside, its exhibitions chart the history of Belfast, from the linen

mills to shipbuilding. But the risk of being relentlessly negative,

what about the Belfast buildings that were actually a part of that

history? Just down from the titanic building is the Holland and wolf

drawing office, where Thomas Andrews designed the Titanic.

Although the public can now visit, Here we are at the centre of the

universe as far as the Titanic is concerned. But what you see around

you is a lot of new build. Very little of the original maritime

heritage exists, but people who come here come because they are

captivated by the image of industrial island, industrial

Belfast of the early 1900s. I don't think there will be disappointed,

but when they come here, they expect to see more. The department

of enterprise, trade and investment said that the Titanic Foundation is

working on a development plan, but because the drawing offices are

listed, it could take up to seven years. But buildings like this

warehouse, now home to the athletics stores are not so lucky.

Although it is in a conservation area, the minister for the

Environment has given the go-ahead to demolish it. He says it is

dangerous and too expensive to keep the facade. Given the fact there

are derelict sites on that street, given there are many properties for

sale on that street, and given the precarious state of this building,

it is in my view quite so evident that there would have been no or

little interest in the purchase of that property. In those

circumstances, I could not believe that property to go into further

dereliction. It is a fate that has befallen many historical buildings

left empty. The Ulster architectural Heritage Society says

many of our buildings are being lost every year. This picture is

from 1951. The buildings marked in red have all been demolished. We

asked the society to take us on a tour of Belfast's historic

buildings, many of which are lying empty. This factory became the

linen warehouse. It is a building by James Hamilton. It is one of the

keep warehouses within this linen Conservation Area. A spokesman for

the owners says it is part of a three-phase development plan and

they are looking for investors. They had the warehouse will be

turned into a boutique hotel. building featured on our first

Buildings at Risk register. It is still what here festering. Next up,

the College Square East building, built in 1907. It is now up for

sale. Many architects were trained here. It is a baroque building and

a key landmark. The building is empty because the Belfast

Metropolitan College has moved to a new site in the Titanic Quarter.

is like Queens University turning its back on its main building.

college plays an important role in creating a new work force and

moving to the Titanic Quarter is part of that. The college says the

new building is significantly increasing the quality and standard

of this estate. Meanwhile, the Ulster architectural Society says

it is not just Belfast's landmark buildings that need protecting.

These houses were seen to beat two of -- seen as being two a penny.

The policy has been to demolish the streets. These houses are now

listed and are being or renovated by the local housing association.

Tour over, it is back to the athletics stores where the society

is challenging the decision to demolish. It says the department

needs to lead by example. I have been set in the lead in this. If

you put �1.5 million into the Titanic dark, if you'd bought in

�400,000 to save a church, if you increase heritage grants, in my

view, they are examples of leadership. To Murrow, all those

interested in the built environment will make for a conference. Their

challenge is to find ways of preserving and developing it

Northern Ireland's historical buildings.

The reputation of MPs has taken a battering in recent years with

expensive -- expenses scandals,... What about changing the law to

allow us to sack our politicians mid-term? Mark Durkan, the

government wants to make it it would be MPs who would decide when

and where a member should be brought to account. What is wrong

with that? That is just leaving the club to run itself. The fact is,

all the main parties going into the election on the back of the

expenses scandal or pledged themselves to recall to put powers

in the hands of voters because everybody said after the expenses

scandal, you cannot have a club running itself, running it the way

they want it to be run. Now, they are saint Maybe someone could be

recalled. The power is not with the electorate, it is with a hand-

picked group of MPs. Douglas Carswell, MPs deserve protection

from random people in the constituencies same, I don't like

the way they did that, Seles recall them. Since when did those who we

elect to make the law need protection? Many of your fee was

will have jobs and will be hired on the basis that when they get the

job, they would do something. Unfortunately, politicians seem to

be hired by the voters to do a job and not do it, or do it badly, or

two things that are wrong, break their word and the voter cannot do

anything about it. In seven out of 10 seats in Britain, we have in

effect have a one-party Fife done. It denies a choice over the person

that people want to represent them. If we had a recall, of course you

were there to see some vexatious attempts to get people out. The

voters are not stupid. They will be able to differentiate between a

genuine criticism of a particular individual and eight vexatious the

tent to remove someone who won an election fair and square. We saw an

example of this in Winchester in 1997. The Conservatives sanctioned

a recall. The voters went to the polling station again and the

incumbent Lee Byrne -- encumbered There has been an issue about

policies that are changed when they are in power. They call it flip

flopping. Should there be something done about it? People should be

conscious that they are beholden to their electorate. I don't believe

you would get all sorts of traditions coming in were people

change, particularly if policies were explained correctly. Also, you

would want people to be protected in terms of conscious voting. I

don't believe it would be widely abused, but if it does make MPs

more conscience of their mandate and responsibility, that is good.

It would strengthen Parliament. So given the electorate more power

could eventually give MPs more power. We should say this is really

about MPs who are found to have been guilty of serious wrongdoing,

not flipped flopping on policy issues. We should not be tried to

draw the distinction. Again, it is for people to decide who they want

to represent them in the legislature or. At the moment, the

government's plans leave it to the grandees in Westminster. Frankly, I

would rather take my chances with the voters in my constituency. They

know me, they would know the context of any judgment that needed

to be made and if you leave it to a committee of brandies to decide

what constitutes serious wrong doing... It is the standards and

privileges committee that many people say do a good job. Well, I

would rather face the judgment of the people who put me in the job

than the first players rather than a committee of people who perhaps

might just be be holding to internal considerations within the

Westminster village. But one of the reasons people do not trust

politicians is that when we are chasing votes, we promise things

that we do not intend to carry out. If we had a recall mechanism

hanging over us, we would think very carefully as individuals will

we draw up aware election address, a personal contract with the voters

if you like, we would ask ourselves and searching questions about the

policies we make as individuals before we stand for election. If

that happens, voters from all parties could have more trust in

those representing them. Could this be a extended to the regional

assemblies? In the context of Northern Ireland, it would be hard

because of the multi- Seat constituency. There would be a

higher risk of abuse. What would you do? False a by-election? --

force. We have multi- Seat constituencies and it would be

difficult to apply the basics of recall. When do you think this is

going to happen? When we do that is the it brought in? I'm disappointed.

After the expenses scandal, all three parties promise this, but we

left the small print to the Westminster insiders. They are

coming up with the recall mechanism without the actual recall in it. I

think it is going to happen, but I don't think this administration

what make real recall happen. you to both of you. And that is why

we must leave it. We will be back next week at the usual time.