16/02/2012 Hearts and Minds


16/02/2012

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Hello and welcome to the programme. Coming up this week - as a leading

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Catholic Grammar says no surrender on selection, we ask the Education

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Minister where we go from here. A US dating agency thinks our men are

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ugly. They should see our economy! And - why are we still waiting for

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the Cohesion and Sharing Plan to build a more integrated society?

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The open revolt by one of Belfast's leading Catholic Grammars against

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the ending of selection is a kick in teeth for the Church hierarchy

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and for the Education Minister, who has used the Church's opposition to

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testing to lend weight to his own position. So where does this leave

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us? John O'Dowd is here. It's a bit of a kick in the teeth? Certainly

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not for me. I want them to support their own policy of academic

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selection. There is either one sector or several. I would like to

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think I'm dealing with one, but it's a classic example and it

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deserves further study. St Dominic's is selective and 15% of

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the pupils are on free school meals. St Rose's nearly 60% of the pupils

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have free school meals. If there isn't a better argument for taking

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down the wall -- They say they work together closely and say they

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they've shared resources. I would like to know how the young children

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and the pupils, have they gained anything? I've no doubt that St

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Dominic's is an excellent education centre and St Rose's, but the

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question I have to ask is why do I need both? Why do I need a school

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separated by a wall and we talk a lot in society about removing walls.

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Why not remove the wall between education? The simple answer, pair

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rants want it. The parents want access to excellent education and I

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don't disparage any parent for doing that, but what the Church is

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saying and the unions and many, many educationalists are saying,

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that can be achieved without the need for selection. Parents don't

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believe you. It's not a case of belief. It is. It's about choice.

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They are saying they like selection. Pair reapbts like access to good

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schools. Certain -- parents like access to good schools. Certainly

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schools are placing barriers. St Dominic's places a barrier to their

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school. It has been proven time and again that you don't need academic

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selection to provide excellent education. Is St Dominic's Board of

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Governors telling society that their staff and school can't teach

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all-ability children? The Bishop is saying it's up to the church to

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persuade parents that selection is a thing of the past. That has

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clearly been a complete failure. The parents think this is very

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immediate. The Church has to give leadership and the Church failed in

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the most recent report they published. Not only did they let

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down many, many people and we have seen the reaction. You mentioned

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they didn't give any kind of timetable for putting an end to

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selection. The time is over on selection. People want to see

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action. That includes parents. Parents who want to have children

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and excellent education. I'm promoting that. Those in the

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Catholic sector are facing a majority of job losses and closures.

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None of this is a factor in the selective sector. This isn't about

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me looking outside to look. I'm not looking at the Alliance or the

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Catholic Church to support the position, I'm looking for them to

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support their own position, because the time is over. That's the

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problem, the hierarchy are saying we must do away and the schools are

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saying, no, we don't want to. The council has fallen somewhere

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between the two? That's a question you need to put to the Catholic

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hierarchy. What I'm saying is I'm worried about the schools and I'm

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using St Dominic's as an example. Why do I need two schools separated

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by a wall when on one side only 15% of the population are on free

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school meals and can gain access and on the other side, 60% are on

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free school meals and can gain access. I want to ensure that all

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young people have excellent education. Isn't it market forces

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at work here? Exactly. The schools that are using selection are

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attracting more people? Whether they are A students, B or C or D,

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they are filling their desks and there's no way they'll close. It's

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market forces. This is not about education. This is about marketing.

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Marketing of a school of a product, suggesting that because they offer

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a test that they provide some form -- It seems to be working very well.

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Because they present this case of different systems than the school

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down the road who does not offer tests. All schools teach the

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curriculum and as we move to the new framework, which will become

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law and 2013 onwards, all schools have to offer the same range of

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subjects, so academic selection in the past was irrelevant and in the

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future it becomes less so than it ever was. Schools using selection,

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the majority of cases, this is a marketing exercise. Where do you

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take it from here? We haven't moved anywhere on selection for years now

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and this isn't going to help you move in your direction. It's not a

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case of helping me move in my direction. Society has played a

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leading role in many changes and it's time for us to show leadership

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on this. It's time for civic society, the churches, unions,

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educationalists all to come out and say it's now the time. They are

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doing that? The church is saying it and still nothing changesment

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Saying it is not enough -- -- still no change. Saying is not enough.

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The bodies with responsibility -- What does that mean in terms?

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explain. The bodies with responsibility in education, such

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as the bishops need to move and put their policy into action. I would

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like to see the unions being louder and coming out and help lead the

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way in regards to this. hierarchy cannot force Catholic

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schools to abandon selection? Either we have a Catholic sector or

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a multitude. That is a question the Church has to answer, because at

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the moment reading my local papers and the newspapers it would appear

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we have a multitude of sectors. The union movement -- The opinion is --

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Let me finish. The unions can offer leadership. The sector out there

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not only in the Catholic sector but in the control sector, who are

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ignored, it's time they stepped up and made their voices heard.

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Academic selection is not necessary for excellence. I'm in favour of

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excellence and let's work towards that. I still don't see that you

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have told me anything concrete that these people can do. There must be

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a political solution? I think civic society giving leadership will lead

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to a solution. Civic society has a role in society and it would be

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arrogant of me to say I will tell those bodies what to do. The

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Alliance and the SDLP and the Church and unions, I'm not

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appealing for me to support Sinn Fein policies, but go back and read

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your own policies and come out and support us. The council said in

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2009 it wanted it phased out by 2012, ready for the entitlement

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curriculum in 2013, but in the recent report there is no mention

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of a deadline. Hence, a failure in leadership. Parents are stepping

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back to look to see how this is going. As I said earlier, parents

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want the best for their individual children and I would not deny

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anyone that. I want to see a system that is excellent, but those

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involved in education, the Catholic Church, has to give leadership and

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others too. Those from socially deprived communities are not

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accessing grammar schools. Why? That question has never been

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sufficiently answered by those who are promoting academic selection.

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Those who are opposed point to the testing system as a barrier to

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further, higher education, so let's remove it. Let's have a more equal

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society and let people move through education. A wall running through a

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school, it's not acceptable. A wall running through any society is not

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acceptable. You have appealed to civic society. Is that an admission

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that you can do nothing? On my own I don't believe so. Or as a member

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of the executive? I believe that politics is often lead by society

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and society has to take a lead. Politicians have set positions. We

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all know what my position is and the DUP. The other parties are

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somewhat reluctant to come out and stand by their positions, but it is

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opposed, and siem saying let's show leadership and come out and -- I'm

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saying, let's show leadership and come out and we need to say enough

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is enough. On another issue, minister, these carving up of the

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department of employment and learning, are we any nearer to

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learning about that? The department -- it will no longer exist in a

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number of months. There are continuing discussions as to how we

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separate the functions into the appropriate departments for the

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benefit of society. Do you think that will be well resolved?

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believe it can be. You'll end up with the universities? I will end

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up with what I end up with. I believe further, higher education

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and the universities have a place within the Department of Education.

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However, if that does not work out to be that case, then I don't think

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that is an insurmountable problem. There are a number of theories.

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Discussions or on-going, but I believe at the end we'll come to an

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agreement which is for the benefit of the improvement. Thank you very

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much. It's official! You're looking at one of the world's ugliest men!

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According to an American dating website for beautiful people, Irish

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men are the ugliest in the world. But the good news for this divided

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community is that our breathtaking lack of good looks crosses all

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religious and cultural barriers. Protestant and Catholic, Unionist

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and Nationalist, North and South, the men of Ireland stand united in

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their sheer ugliness. Apparently our problem is what our wives and

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girlfriends have been telling us for years - we just don't make the

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effort. While the poll-topping boys from Brazil submit a picture to the

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agency taken after a morning spent in the local beauty salon, tanned,

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toned, exfoliated and generally buffed up, Irish men send in a

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picture taken in the pub on their mate's phone, a little the worse

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for wear, proudly holding up a pint of stout and grinning with a mouth

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full of cheeseburger! Every woman's dream. Looking even uglier than

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Ulster's men, however, is Ulster's future. It's a case of another day,

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another closure here with shops shutting down, companies collapsing

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and the public sector haemorrhaging jobs. Among this week's casualties

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were employees of a locally based call centre, which announced it

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would be paying off 250 of its staff. Right now unemployment

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appears to be our main growth industry. While unemployment is

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growing, property prices continue to fall. And it's not just the

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private housing market. The Castle Court Centre in Belfast was sold

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this week for what is thought to be about half it's market value before

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the crash. As if the future isn't bleak enough, the proposed

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alterations to the benefits system are expected to impact large

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numbers of families here. According to the Northern Ireland

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Conservative website, we are addicted to benefits in this

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province and that has to change. So what with one thing and another,

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conditions appear to be building for a perfect storm. However,

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Stormont, often criticised for its inertia in the past, has responded

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to the situation by embarking upon what amounts to a massive public

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works initiative. Admittedly, most of the money was already allocated

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and much of the preliminary planning already in place, but

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nevertheless the announcement on Tuesday of a �600 million road-

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building and construction scheme is welcome news. The plans include the

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upgrading of sections of the A5 and the A8 and the long-awaited

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improvement to one of the most congested roads in the province,

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the notorious A2 from Belfast to Carrickfergus. Included in the plan

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is about �90 million to be spent on hospitals in Omagh, Londonderry and

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Dundonald. In total, the scheme is expected to provide up to 3,000

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jobs in the construction industry. They couldn't come at a better time.

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Good night. The thoughts of Lindsay Allen. Cohesion, sharing and

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integration - that's the formal title of the strategy for creating

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a brave new conflict-free society in Northern ireland. But the

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initials CSI could stand for confusion, suspicion and indecision,

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given how long we're having to wait for any concrete results from the

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years of thinking and consulting that have gone into it. We were

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promised a robust high-level action plan by last December, but it seems

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as far away as ever. In a moment I'll be asking my guests where it

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all went wrong, but first Julia Paul has been assessing the state

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It was in 2003 when the question was asked about how community

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relations in Northern Ireland could be -- improved. There was support

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for living in a shed society. Subsequently, in 2005, the shared

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future document was published by the then Northern Ireland minister,

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John. He despised -- devised an action plan for education, housing

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and law and order. 2007 in 2007, a shared future was shelved. The

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strategy was known as the CSI strategy. It was due to be

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delivered instalment in 2008. It has promised for harrowing that

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year. By November, there was still no sign of it. I would like to

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dispel the notion that there was a lack of urgency. We recognise the

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importance of bringing the cohesion plan forward. Just a little bit

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more time is required. We were still waiting by the summer of 2009.

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Sir Hugh Orde's parting shot was saying that the delay in publishing

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the strategy was leaving a vacuum to perpetuate the divisions of the

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past. The First Minister declared... It remains one of the top policy

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priorities. Then, Sinn Fein published its own document, to the

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fury of the DUP who shelved it. Good relations are built on the

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foundation of a quality, and it cannot be built on any inequality.

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It is confusing for many people as to why the DUP would not sign up to

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it the policy of agreement that is going to tackle high crime. It is

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going to tackle sectarianism. whole concept of a shed and better

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future is based on three key principles. They were identified as

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equity, diversity and interdependence. It is about

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recognises -- recognising diversity in our society. We also have to

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have some sense of social cohesion and sharing into dependence -- into

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dependence. What Sinn Fein has done is to give the great priority into

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one of the strands, and to downgrade the the other two.

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think groups in our sexual -- sector would like to see it, and

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baking clearly bring their experience to bear. They can co-

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operate and collaborate with government to achieve the outcome

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that everyone is looking for. I think these things are linked.

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Progress on the strategy is the key demand of the Alliance Party. In

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2010, Alliance leader David Ford declared the justice ministry.

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Finally, in July 2010, a draft was published of the suicide document.

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A consultation was launched on that. In May of last year, all of the

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parties were invited to nominate MLAs took form a working group to

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look at the strategy. They have been meeting on an almost weekly

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basis. To date, no formal policy has yet been agreed. We have been

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at this for seven or eight years, and that really is too long, so we

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have to show progress and we have to show the outside world but we've

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can resolve it. We in Northern Ireland are really interested in a

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much better future. It is now 20th February 12, and we are still

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waiting. We did it in fights people to -- invite people to join this

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debate, but we weren't able to get everyone. Six or seven years we

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have been waiting for this. Everyone is responsible for this

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delay? It is a failure of politics in this region. Reconciliation

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would be the foundation stone that we would build in the north,

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because reconciliation means prosperity. Reconciliation means

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peace and a new society. It what part of failure to you a bit too?

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think the collective failure has been to understand the vast

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majority outside the Stormont bubble, who want reconciliation. We

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should share the blame for the fact that parties, and particularly the

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two large parties, do not seem to share that reconciliation needs to

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be at the heart of government. have seen Peter Robinson go to GA

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matches. Martin McGuinness is going to Windsor Park. They are being

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defined by actions and not words. You are talking about political

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failure of leadership. That tells you something that Peter Robinson

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is trying to test a measure of reconciliation by what he is going

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to do, when the vast majority of society have moved on from where he

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is decades ago. How can you criticise the ship on one hand...

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am not sure how much leadership we have seen from those parties. The

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alliance party's key policies have been integrated with education and

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the display of flags and emblems, and we have seen delivery of --

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delivery from the Minister of Justice, and our Minister of

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Employment has looked at the teacher training system, so we are

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leading change on this issue, so we have set out our League -- clear

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priorities. You have all parties going along to these meetings, and

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it does not seem to budge an inch. What is going wrong? I think we

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need to seek the other parties stepping up to the plate on this

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issue. We have seen just a product of -- gesture politics. What are

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the whole DUP? We have set out our policies. You cannot be too

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discreet. We will not settle for anything less than clear delivery

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on the issues. Flags, for example, that is a stumbling block. What is

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the problem? Every year, we seek flags displayed in a way that our

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seen to be causing intimidation. We need to agree a framework on West.

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I know what the pros -- problem is. I don't know why they can't resolve

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this. Why is it that such a stumbling block? Then these to be a

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regulatory framework. Can you tell ask why they are not agreeing?

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work of the committee is incompetence, but I can say this

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much. I think flags are eight touchstone issue for many people in

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our society. I think many people dislike the fact that flags are

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used to mark out territory, and they are used by people with a

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sinister outlook. The interesting thing, and the Test of whether we

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are able to work, is whether it is able to face up to the need,

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whether it is courageous on things like housing. 90 % of all social

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housing has been segregated. You would think that the government

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would want to lead the way, but it needs to be able to face up to

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society's needs. They need to deal with things like victims.

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Government at the highest level... Yes, they are going to turn up to

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see the Queen, but... They'd don't think that suicide should dwell on

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Many consultation responses put forward constructive ideas.

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document said that the CSI should not spend as much time on the past.

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Of course, we have to put together policies on a shared future, but we

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need a comprehensive mechanism. do we have to have this aura of

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confidentiality and secrecy about this committee? Why can't we know

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what is going on and cook is causing the stumbling blocks?

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is no 60 on where the Alliance Party stand on this issue. It is a

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massive priority. The cost of division has been set at �1 billion.

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The discussions have been bound by confidentiality. The specifics of

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the working group are contained in the working group. We need to

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discuss this issue in public. We want to see it discussed. That is a

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question that you need to have with the two parties you don't want to

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have a public debate. We can address this incompetence, but we

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need to talk that it in public. He would have thought where we are

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with our peace process is that this is a debate that we should be happy

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Enrique -- happening. We want to agree every what -- involve

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everyone in our society, rather than block it away in a corner room

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instalment. It is not a question we can answer, but I hope where be get

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to the point where we get agreement, I do hope that we are able to put

0:26:020:26:08

that out for further debate. big parties agree -- accuse the

0:26:080:26:18
0:26:180:26:26

SDLP of point scoring, is that delaying things again? I can't see

0:26:260:26:33

how holding Ministers to account is point-scoring. Stormont is

0:26:330:26:40

beginning to behave like is unaccountable. It is the job of the

0:26:400:26:45

ministers to do it. It looks like they are being disloyal to society.

0:26:450:26:52

What we need is an open culture, where people can debate it openly,

0:26:520:26:56

and we should be debating reconciliation. On reconciliation,

0:26:560:27:01

we build the new society, we build a better future. Is this so

0:27:010:27:11
0:27:110:27:18

important anyway? It talks about so many strategies. With all that

0:27:180:27:28
0:27:280:27:28

going on, who needs CSI?! We need a robust document to deal with key

0:27:280:27:33

issues, peace walls, flags. These are important issues to society.

0:27:340:27:39

They affect our economy and social interaction. This is a priority

0:27:390:27:46

issue. The Community Relations Council did all that. It was set up

0:27:460:27:50

and it wasn't given the powers it should have been given. They have

0:27:500:27:55

spent the last three years trying to demolish it. What we do need is

0:27:550:28:00

a very robust independent body, they can call it as it is when it

0:28:000:28:06

comes to government's response to sectarianism. Wendy you think there

0:28:060:28:13

will be a resolution? We will try and get it as soon as possible.

0:28:130:28:20

Give me a date. A I hope is soon, but the news to be right. We will

0:28:200:28:30
0:28:300:28:41

be back next week. -- I hope it is I need a really good discussion

0:28:410:28:51
0:28:510:28:52

about politics. The big question is do taxi fares need to be increased?

0:28:520:29:02
0:29:020:29:05

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