09/02/2012 Hearts and Minds


09/02/2012

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Hello. Welcome to the programme. Coming up this week. Money, money,

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money. Should we be pushing for tax raising powers or are we petter off

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taking handouts? Could the Queen of shops bring colour back to our

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politics as well as our high streets. And long to reign over us.

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Why so Foo rally to the monarchist cause.

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There's fundamental disagreement in Stormont on how to rescue our

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economy. Sinn Fein say we'd be in a stronger position if we could raise

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our own taxes. The Finance Minister says self-financing would endanger

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our public services. Why is the DUP afraid of some financial

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independence? We are not afraid of financial independence. We are

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continuing to actively pursue the devolution much Corporation Tax

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powers. We've already secured the devolution of our passenger duty to

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secure long haul direct flights in and out of Belfast. We are against

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the wholesale movement of tax raising powers from Stormont to

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Westminster. It may be attractive to look at fuel druety and say

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let's take the power for that to Northern Ireland so we could set it

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at a lower level. The consequence of that would mean we'd have to

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take the hit of any reduction. That's called Government. Taking

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important decisions? It comes as a consequence to our public services.

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If you reduced fuel duty by 10%. That would be 90 million pounds

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worth of deficit. That's a lot of public Sir Viss you'd have to cut

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away at. It isn't something that's a cost-free option. It may be

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attractive to look at on superficial level but comes with

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those consequences. We are not at a stage sufficiently that we've

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developed our economy where it could be something we are easily

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able to make up elsewhere. Paul, Sinn Fein are living in a dream

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world? Some of this comes from a question I supposed this week in

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the Assembly. Asked him if he has had any conversation with the

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exchequer with regards to having more fiscal power for the executive

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to take power of. He said he doesn't want any more because he's

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a unionist. Sammy Wilson's always farb eerbious. My point is I doptd'

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think business out there will accept that argument, because

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you're unionist you don't want more fiscal powers. That has to be put

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away. We need to move forward and govern for ourselves, take the

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responsibility what we can do. That's some of the big issues with

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regard to some of the fax-free powers. We could govern ourselves

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much better. This is the same Government, the Tory-led Government

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who put �4 billion of cuts for this four year period. If we had our own

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tax free powers we could work that out and take some of the hits off

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society where we could implement our powers with better use. We get

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�8 billion of sub vention every year from Westminster. That's money

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we don't raise our selves. We haven't got the capacity to race

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that -- raise that ourselves. The people of Northern Ireland would be

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in a Shabby situation if we had that power. We cant aafford that.

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Mark is in our Foyle studios. SDLP is in favour of tax raising powers.

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We'd find it very difficult to keep the same standard of living and

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public service as we do now? That's why we have to be selective,

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strategic and about how we amass tax raising powers. We were add vo

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Kateing areas of fiscal discretion. No other party was interested at

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that stage. Sinn Fein keep talking about tax raising powers as a way

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of getting round the �4 billion hit on the budget. Where are they

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saying they'd raise pz 4 billion out of our hard-pressed economy?

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Which business sector would be targeted? Would they massively

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increase income tax. We already have lower wages than other parts

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of these islands. Sinn Fein are somewhat incoherent on this. It is

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attractive to say you want tax varying powers when it comes to

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making a dipbs to sectors of the economy. We've tried to help

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sectors in the past given things like the climate change levy,

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aggregates levy, air airport duty etsz. It is one thing to have tax

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Vaiying powers to shelter parts of the economy. It is another to say

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we want on a wide ranging bases, raise rapidly more money out of an

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already tight economy. That's where Sinn Fein don't make sense. They

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haven't told us what tax, what amount, who they will be hitting,

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how they would hit it. Let's put some of those points to the panel?

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Surely some of the arguments Mark's putting forward and Simon put

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forward is they are afraid to govern them sells. People put uls

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into the position... That's not an answer to the question. Where's the

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money going to come from? What we are saying is let's see what tax

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money is paid out every year here. We cannot get that answer. The

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British exchequer won't give us that answer. We could pay more

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taxes here than we're given back in? Do you really think... I don't

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know where you'll get that from. are not getting them figures. Let's

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press for them figures. With the the Finance Minister has a duty for

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iend out what they are. If you get those figures and they showed we

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give back to the exchequer much less than we got from it, would

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that supper your plans? How would it? It would work in our favour. We

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are saying if we are paying more tax money out on a yearly basis we

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could govern and have much more money for ourselves. I sit on the

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committee where we had three experts in taking about things.

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They are saying we've Ben fit the from the Barnet forpbl la up to now.

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We are at tipping point. In years ahead that money will reduce more.

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I skrnt' heard the Finance Minister or anyone for that matter state

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those facts. We need to get to those issues. We'll have less money

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to spend on businesses on the economy and building our economy.

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That's what we need to do. It is clear to me and the three experts

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who were at that committee, to reed the minutes of that meeting. I wish

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we were raising more in tax revenue than we were taking in from

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Westminster. We wouldn't go through the economic turmoil we are in

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Northern Ireland if that was the case. The truth is there is �8

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billion of sub vention coming in each and every year. We are not

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alone in regions of the UK, it is only London and the south-east who

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pay for themselves. I aspire to it. We should all aspire to all of us

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paying more of our way. That's what the executive Si trying to do to

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bridge that gap that there is in terms of productivity in Northern

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Ireland. We are a long way away from the position Paul thinks we

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are in. What I fear is not governing for ourselves, what I

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fear is if we go down the foolish route Paul's outlining, the

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consequence for people in Northern Ireland, the consequence for public

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services in Northern Ireland will be severe. I don't fear taking

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control of our own distinny. shouldn't dismiss the scale of the

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sub vention. As far as Paul saying he's not heard anyone else talking

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about the Barnet formula, many years ago I warned people that

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formula would come to a point where there would be a squeeze and we

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needed to address it as a region. We'll realise that will open up

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around us in the context of Scotland. That's why we need to be

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thinking about what fiscal discretion we want. We have to be

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sensible. We can't say give all tax raising powers. The people who

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would happily let the us raise all our taxes would be the people in

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the south of England. If we are going to have fiscal powers we need

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to use them to the benefit of our economy and our people. If we are

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left having to raise the tax bills on every worker and firm that won't

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help us back into competitiveness. People won't say that's a great bit

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of self-Government up' agreed. Make us let competitive than our people

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in this island. We need to be sensible. He's saying about tax

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raisinging powers. We are talking about takes fearing you Poers.

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Let's pose the questions to the British exchequer, how much money

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is coming out of here every year to the British exchequer? That's a

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question... You've asked that question already on the programme.

:09:55.:10:05.
:10:05.:10:06.

Ask Paul Paul then... It is not all about tax raising. Mark, I want to

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raise another subject in this forum. The SDLP are concerned about the

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effect of the welfare benefit reforms in Northern Ireland. You

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accept the need for reform? course there's always need for

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reform and adjustment in a system to make sure benefits get to people

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who need them. Changes need to be made anyway to better support

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cancer patients for instance. Many of these reforms of going in the

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opposite direction. The one bit of headline reform many parties agree

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with is the idea, the concept of a universal credit. In particular, if

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that can improve the experience people have had with working tax

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credits, that would be an improvement. In principle that's

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the target of these reforms. We don't have all the details yet. The

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actual regulations that will apply and have effect on people, we still

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don't V the Government's pushing this bill through in Westminster

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and are expecting Stormont to pass a karaoke version when we don't

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have the detailed regulations. Alastair McDonald accused the

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executive of not being prepared for these reforms. Do you accept that?

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Not the case. Nelson McCausland's in regular contact with the

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Minister. Some of his contact is almost daily. This is something

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which is taken very seriously. There's an executive sub-committee

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on welfare reform. Everybody would embrace welfare reform that simple

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fist the system, that ensures there is not a culture where it is

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easier... And pay special atense to the needs of Northern Ireland?

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and do what we can with the system with have to ensure some of the

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most negative affects are not hitting our people so severely.

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Gentlemen, thank you. Is it just me or is politics here

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getting more colourless, tame and boring? Everyone's on message

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wearing smart suits, towing their party lines saying what they are

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supposed to say. I Ronically, as though we have a five-party

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executive and seven parties in the in the Assembly. Politics in

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Northern Ireland is more uniform than ever. Where's the passion,

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fervour? Where are the people who chose for themselves not followed?

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This is the city which produced radical Protestant nationalists.

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Dynamic men and women who dared to dream differently? Where the

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political free-thinkers? Who don't slot into the preordained boxes.

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Where the Catholic Unionists protestant republicans. Even a few

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would liven things up a bit. Instead we get the grey sludge of

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conformity. Our politician are increasingly looking and sound the

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same. This is a political culture where our single Green Party

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representative is the close close est thing Stormont has to a -- an

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anarchist. We have the spuds and Alliance Party to break up the

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tribal set-up but they'll never set your heart on fire. They are more

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like a comforting blanket of mashed potato, pleasant and wholesome and

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you might want to go to sleep afterwards. On the rare occasions

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when people do anything remoatly sur Rexry someone has been naughty.

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When David McNarry got too expanseive about his talks with the

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DUP, Ulster Unionists leader Tom Elliott slapped him down. It is not

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just the DUP where discipline are valued more highly than personal

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initiative and imagination. There's a collective fear of breaking the

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rules. Those of us with a hangering for more political flafr have to be

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content with small, random of colour. Like Nelson McCausland

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inviting Mary Portas to give advice on our ailing high streets. I love

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the thought of an encounter between Nelson and Portas who likes to wear

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dominate rix boots and is described as the glamorous half of a lesbian

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couple. We've been talking about Ian Paisley this week. That's a man

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you could never accuse of being dull or boring. Yet it was only

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when he announced his rabble rousing ways and went quietly into

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Government with Sinn Fein this place set down it a fragile he can

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lib rum. It seems one dimensional dumbness is the price we are paying

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for peace -- dullness. Not fooming idea logs. It is boring but, I

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We talked last week about the SuperPacs, the groups funneling

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tens of millions of dollars in anonymous donations into the US

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presidential campaigns. Before we tut tut about the undermining of

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democracy, we should remember Northern Ireland is the only part

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of the British Isles where the identity of political donors is

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kept secret. But there are mounting demands from voters for the

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The vast majority of people surveyed in Northern Ireland would

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like to see donations to political parties made public. There is still

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a degree of concern of possible intimidation or fear of reprisals.

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I believe this is still a veil that political parties hide behind.

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there's nothing to hide, let's have it out in the open. Now, you may

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know what your political party stands for, but what you don't know

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is who is funding them. Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK

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where those who donate or loan money to political parties are

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allowed to remain anonymous. There are mixed views about this among

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the parties, but those who want their donors to remain confidential

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say that's because naming them could put them in danger.

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Information on donors to political parties is collected by the

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Electoral Commission. If a political party receives �7,500

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paid to the central party or �1500 to a branch of the party, they make

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a return to the Electoral Commission on a quarterly basis. We

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would ensure that the donation received was from a per missible

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source. The commission commission also surveys the public.

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The latest findings show voters want access to that information.

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The vast majority of people surveyed in Northern Ireland would

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like to see donations and loans to political parties made public. The

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figure currently is 62% would like to see that. We only have 4% of the

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people surveyed in 2011 of the view thra -- that information about who

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donates should remain confidential. So we carry -- carried out our own

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survey. Some things are fundamental. Information is one of them. This

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stuff about security is a red herring. I don't think the security

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risk would be a significant factor and it might be an excuse that is

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being given. I don't believe that's a valid reason. If they really

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wanted to donate they wo. If their politics are strong enough and they

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have the money, I think they would do it. If they're being voted in by

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the public, the public has the right to know who is funning the

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partiesment Where do the parties stand? Sinn Fein wants an ebd to

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keeping donations to political parties secret. On its website it

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publishes the amount donated to the party, but not the donors. Alliance

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also believes donations to parties or public representatives should be

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publicly declared. But the SDLP is worried about the safety of donors,

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especially in the light of disdepartment -- dissident

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activities. The U ever P agrees. They believe the information could

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be of use to terrorists. The DUP says there is still a trifpbg for

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donors being identified with a political party.

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It's less draink Russ now than -- dangerous than ten, 15 years ago.

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There is still a degree of concern, perhaps a perception more than

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reality of possible intimidation or fear of reprisals. We're told every

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day that this is a new Northern Ireland, that we have a news -- new

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dispensation F we have, why are we clinging to relics in terms of

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suppressing transparency from the past? The TUV is not the only party

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sceptical that there is a security risk. That is an old argument

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that's no longer valid. The Green Party is so convinced, it's

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publishing the names of donors on the website We think it's a key

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element of democracy that the people who go out to vote know who

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is funding their political parties and how they're being funded to

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make an informed choice. What other parties may say is that the Greens

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are unlikely to be the victims of a terrorist-style attack that some of

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the other parties might face, that's why they need the

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confidentiality. If we can take soldiers off the streets and reduce

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policing numbers and if people can stand for election safely, surely

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we can have transparency in donations. There's a recognition

:19:59.:20:06.

that the lack of transparency can undermine politics. It's

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significant donation that's may be made by people who could be viewed

:20:10.:20:14.

as having an altierior motive and making the donation. That's what we

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all have to guard against. Some of us have systematically guarded

:20:19.:20:23.

against it, but that's not enough any more. We need to be clear, if

:20:23.:20:27.

money comes in, be it significant or otherwise, people need to know

:20:27.:20:33.

where it's coming from and how much it is. Sinn Fein tell us their MLAs

:20:33.:20:37.

only take an industrial wage. I know from questions asked there's

:20:37.:20:42.

no MLA paid officially just an industrial wage. They're all paid a

:20:42.:20:46.

full salary. If they say that they then give it to the party, that

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could be a donation which would be registerable and the public should

:20:50.:20:53.

be able to see that against the records of the Electoral Commission.

:20:53.:20:57.

This issue isn't the responsibility of Stormont. It's down to the

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coalition Government at Westminster. Secretary of State Owen Patterson

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believes more information could be released without compromising donor

:21:07.:21:11.

safety. He says he's committed to providing full transparency around

:21:11.:21:14.

political donors in Northern Ireland in the long-term.

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The current legislation expires in February of next year and any

:21:19.:21:23.

change will mean new legislation. As there's already a heavy work

:21:23.:21:26.

load at Westminster, even if there's agreement on change, it

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could be a while yet. Julia Paul reporting. This week

:21:33.:21:39.

brought the 60th anniversary of the accession of Queen Elizabeth II to

:21:39.:21:42.

the throne. The British nation is preparing for the Diamond Jubilee

:21:42.:21:46.

and with Prince William and his bride the darlings of the media,

:21:46.:21:51.

the future of the monarchy seems secure. With me now to analyse the

:21:51.:21:59.

endure of the monarchy is Jeffrey Donaldson and in London in London

:21:59.:22:08.

Graeme Smith. They've been banging the drum for 30 years but making

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little impact. In this year, do you feel like giving up? Republic was

:22:12.:22:16.

formed in '93, but in terms of actually being an active

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campaigning group it's been going for five or six years. It was

:22:21.:22:25.

relaunched as a campaigning pressure group. Last year, when the

:22:25.:22:29.

media were getting into a bit of a frenzy around the Royal Wedding,

:22:29.:22:32.

our supporter numbers rocketed. From the day that the wedding was

:22:32.:22:37.

announced through to the day of the wedding itself, we saw an increase

:22:37.:22:43.

of more than 100% of our supporters. We now have over 20,000 supporters

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UK-wide. That is now growing again as we build up to the Jubilee.

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the polls show overwhelming support for the monarchy. One done last

:22:53.:22:58.

year looking even to the accession of King Charles only 13% of people

:22:58.:23:03.

said they'd prefer to see the monarchy go than have King Charles.

:23:03.:23:07.

That poll was hugely misleading. A poll one week before the wedding

:23:07.:23:13.

from ICM showed 26% of the population thought we'd be better

:23:13.:23:17.

off without the monarchy. The bulk of people that were polled around

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that time also said that they weren't interested in the wedding.

:23:22.:23:26.

So whilst most people still given a choice would say well, let's keep

:23:26.:23:32.

what we've got, it isn't the same sort of love for the monarchy that

:23:32.:23:38.

you would have seen 30 years ago. Do you agree that there is a swell

:23:38.:23:41.

of republicanism in the country at large? I don't think there is.

:23:41.:23:47.

Support for the monarchy is holding very strong. When you consider that

:23:47.:23:52.

even Alex Salmond who wants to make Scotland independent wants to

:23:52.:23:56.

retain the monarchy, and the link, even in the event of independent

:23:56.:24:00.

Scotland, it shows how popular the monarchy is across the United

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Kingdom. Thomas Payne called it an exceedingly ridiculous composition.

:24:06.:24:11.

If you were starting today you wouldn't invent a monarchy would

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you? It's part of our history, that's the case. Whether or not we

:24:14.:24:18.

would invent it today is not really the Irish you. People are happy

:24:18.:24:22.

with the settled situation, our constitutional status. The monarchy

:24:22.:24:26.

has served us well. The United Kingdom has enjoyed centuries of

:24:26.:24:30.

stability, when all around the world we've seen a lot of

:24:30.:24:35.

instability, revolutions, coup d'etat and so on. I think we can be

:24:35.:24:38.

thankful that our head of state contributes to the stability that

:24:38.:24:43.

the United Kingdom enjoys. How do you counter that Graeme Smith?

:24:43.:24:48.

doesn't contribute to the stability. The monarchies in Europe have

:24:48.:24:54.

survived in stable countries. It's not that the monarchies have caused

:24:54.:24:59.

it, they've allowed the monarchies to survive. This is a fundamental

:24:59.:25:05.

part of our set up and our constitution. Our constitution is

:25:05.:25:08.

profoundly undemocratic. The British people have little input in

:25:08.:25:12.

the way our politics is managed, other than every five years we get

:25:12.:25:17.

a vote for less than half of our Parliament. And in between those

:25:17.:25:21.

elections, our Government is enormously powerful in terms of

:25:21.:25:24.

domestic politics and that power comes from the Crown. It's much

:25:24.:25:28.

more than just the institution, it's to do with our entire

:25:28.:25:33.

political system. We want a system where we are genuinely democratic,

:25:33.:25:37.

where the people have a genuine say in politics, right from top all the

:25:37.:25:42.

way down to the bottom. It is fundamentally anti-democratic, the

:25:42.:25:47.

notion of monarchy. That's a nonsense. If it was anti-democratic,

:25:47.:25:51.

why would the people tolerate it? The people, by their own will, want

:25:51.:25:56.

to retain the monarchy. That is the situation. The people... It is

:25:56.:25:59.

anti-democratic institution by definition. You don't vote for the

:25:59.:26:02.

king or Queen. It's not when it's the will of the people. Democracy

:26:02.:26:06.

is about the exercise of the will of the people. Let me challenge

:26:06.:26:10.

this notion that somehow republics are stable. Look at every single

:26:10.:26:14.

conflict in the world today, tell me how many of those conflicts are

:26:14.:26:17.

in countries where there's a monarchy and how many are in

:26:17.:26:23.

countries like Afghanistan, where there is conflict. Afghanistan is

:26:23.:26:28.

not... I didn't interrupt you. let you come back. Don't worry.

:26:28.:26:32.

Graham is more interested in targetting ten to 15-year-olds who

:26:32.:26:35.

want to enter a cookery competition as part of the Diamond Jubilee and

:26:36.:26:40.

he says it's against the law for a school to allow its children to

:26:40.:26:44.

enter a cookery competition because it's not republican. This is the

:26:44.:26:49.

kind of nonsense that republic are coming out with. So weak is the

:26:49.:26:54.

argument they're targetting school children. Republicanism is about

:26:54.:26:59.

being democratic and having a system founded on the idea that, of

:26:59.:27:03.

the sovereignty of the people. the republic of Syria, for example.

:27:03.:27:09.

No, precisely. Syria is not a republic. It's a dictatorship.

:27:09.:27:16.

a republic. It's got a President. So is Afghanistan. The United

:27:17.:27:21.

States is a republic. We're getting the picture that republics are very

:27:21.:27:26.

often are in unstable situations. Not necessarily. I'm asking Steve a

:27:26.:27:30.

simple question. Show me one monarchy with instability?

:27:30.:27:34.

you're going to keep on interrupting me and being rather

:27:34.:27:37.

obtuse to put it bluntly, we're not going to get very far. A republic

:27:37.:27:43.

is a country which is founded on democratic values. Syria is a

:27:43.:27:47.

dictatorship. It is a monarchy, because it is, the fact that they

:27:47.:27:53.

call themselves President, they are a hereditary dictatorship. It is as

:27:53.:27:59.

our country used to be 300 years ago. Nepal was a monarchy and

:27:59.:28:02.

suffered huge amounts of internal strife and they are now a republic.

:28:02.:28:06.

There are much fewer monarchies in the world and therefore clearly

:28:07.:28:13.

there are going to be more non- monarchy countries that have

:28:13.:28:15.

political problems. Europe went through wars and revolutions as a

:28:16.:28:21.

direct results of failure of monarchy on this continent. It is a

:28:21.:28:26.

non-argument to suggest that monarchy is more stable than

:28:26.:28:30.

republics. It is complete nonsense. What would your prognosis be for

:28:30.:28:35.

the end of the monarchy? What can you foresee? Look into your

:28:35.:28:39.

republic's crystal bass. A lot of the support that exists for the

:28:39.:28:43.

monarchy is tied up with the Queen herself. She's coming to the end of

:28:43.:28:47.

her life and reign. That's a natural fact of the way this thing

:28:47.:28:51.

works. We're going to run out of time. I want to ask you, do you

:28:51.:28:57.

think the end of the Queen's reign will be in some way a presage the

:28:57.:29:01.

end of the monarchy? Absolutely not. There is no evidence of that. I

:29:01.:29:05.

think the monarchy will be here for a long time to come. It adds real

:29:05.:29:09.

value it our nation and people Cherish it. We have to leave it

:29:09.:29:13.

there. Thank you very much. That's where we have to leave it. We'll be

:29:13.:29:21.

back next week at the usual times. I hope you'll join us. Goodbye.

:29:21.:29:26.

Where due get your license a lucky pick? Some carry on this week, the

:29:26.:29:31.

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