19/01/2012 Hearts and Minds


19/01/2012

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Hello and welcome to the programme. Coming up. The Justice Minister and

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the fix that kept him in office, but lost his party its second

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minute Sterry. How ex-prisoners are helping schoolchildren learn about

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citizenship and conflict. Why Tom Elliott thinks Scottish

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independence is a bigger threat to the union than the IRA.

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For the Alliance leader David Ford, the uncertainty is over. It has

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been agreed that his party will hold on to the justice ministry for

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the duration of this Assembly. It came at a price, the abolition of

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the did Department of Education, meaning that they lost a seat at

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the table. Mr Ford, you went from describing the merging malicious

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and bad government, to excepting this deal it that keeps you in

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Kenya, but losing Stephen Farry his job? You have got it wrong. The

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Alliance Party have not accepted anything. The deal is there, but it

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has not gone through. Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness have

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set out what they want to happen. We have made it clear. They can see

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what happens, but they cannot make other people participate. You are

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not going to stay in the justice ministry? Let us pedal back. The

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key issue is last May we had an Assembly election and the people of

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Northern Ireland voted for Alliance, gave us an extra seat and

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significantly more votes and an entitlement to one of him

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ministerial post. The First Minister and Deputy First Minister

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at proposed affix to abolish our right to that. You have one post,

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the Justice Ministry? It is all fix isn't it? I know what is

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interesting for you. It is a complicated issue. Our entitlement

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is to the ministerial post which is awarded on the mathematical

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proportionality. The offer of the Minister of Justice, which has not

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actually been formally offered to us, they talk about a cross-

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community vote. You're interrupting a game! I am getting impatient.

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Have explaining the key facts between the gift, as they seem to

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regard it and what the people of Northern Ireland said we were

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entitled to. If they can fix the system to take out our entitlement

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of one of the 10 posts, why should I possibly believe any assurances

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that they will leave me in post, but all they have to do is a simple

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vote in the Assembly? That is why we believe it is absolutely

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essential that at Justice Minister or elected on a cross-community

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vote must have ten-year. They agree with that? What we have not yet got

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is the assurance that the only way that can be guaranteed, legislation

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in Westminster, will be provided. That is essential. There is no

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doubt of that? Do think there is any possibility within the next few

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months that we will have you not still in the justice ministry and

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the D T L will have gone. The it is significant doubt whether

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legislative protection will be provided. I do not think the

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Secretary of State appreciates the seriousness of the situation. The

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decision on whether the Lions party will participate will be taken by

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their counsel. I am not sure if I could go whether I wanted to, to

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say they chucked out Stephen Farry last week, so we can rely on the

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promise that I will remain in my post. You said to Owen Paterson

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will you agree to extend protection for the Justice Ministry and he

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said no? The position is that the Deputy First Minister and First

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Minister said they would seek legislation and the Secretary of

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State is saying there is a difficulty about the timing.

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the principal? As I understand, the House of Commons is almost as bad

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as the Assembly, I notice yesterday that the order paper it did not

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have anything at all on legislation except at Ten Minute Rule Bill,

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which be no means nothing. They're not actually doing any real work in

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the House of Commons, so I cannot accept the Secretary of State

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saying there isn't time to do it. If protection were to be extended,

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you would except the prolongation of your tenure in the justice

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ministry and also you would accept the fact that the D L is going to

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go. That is going to happen? prove that they can they abolish it,

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proves the need for protection. If there was a guarantee for

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protection in Westminster legislation, then I would have

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something to put to the Alliance Party. A why not just throw the

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whole thing open? There isn't sufficient cross-community

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confidence. Do you believe that is still the case? A do you think

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outside Stormont people would object to having Alban Maginness as

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the Minister? If Alban Maginness got a cross-community vote in the

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Assembly, then obviously he could be Justice Minister. The reality is

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that last May he did not get support. There were three

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candidates and I was the fourth candidate. There would not have

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been an alliance Justice Minister if anyone had been acceptable from

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any of the other parties. You do not think anything has changed

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since then? Not from what I hear from other politicians. Did you

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taking a job cannot contribute to the continuing sectarianism of

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politics? If you said you would not take it, it would have been thrown

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open? Hire and earth to do is the suggestion that some are elected on

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a cross-community vote, attracting support from across the house, with

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the background of the Alliance Party have, how on earth is that

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sectarian icing it? The SDLP have argued that they are entitled to

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the justice ministry as the next pick, so why not just throw it

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open? They don't have the next pick! We are entitled to the next

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pick. If the abolish d e l, we are entitled to one of the 10

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departments that remains. About the sectarianism, if the DUP and Sinn

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Fein reckon that there is no one else who can take the cross-

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community vote, you are accepting their analysis. Why not just throw

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the whole thing open again? Why not say the you want Northern Ireland

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to show it is mature enough to let someone on their skills not the

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party they are from? That has the opportunity the Assembly had. They

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could collect someone on the basis of the skills they had. They were

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three people nominated on the first occasion and for people nominated

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on the second occasion. I was the only person who gain sufficient

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confidence. Justice was so complicated, so worrying, we could

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not do it at all in the Good Friday Agreement. I am wondering if this

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guy would not fall in if it was thrown open? You would need to ask

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other people from other parties. I do not believe that there is

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necessary sufficient support for that. I also have said in response

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to this and Andrew's agreement that we should have a vote in the

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Assembly that validates the entire Executive. We should not have

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people nominated by parties, we should show it is a partnership and

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nature that people are working together by having a vote to

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endorse the entire Executive. We have a proposal to endorse the

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Ministry of Justice, but not the entire it Executive. We should be

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seeking something more than a carve Up in which parties pick a

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department and establish something like a real working coalition. As

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soon mean that there is protection offered by legislation and Alliance

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keeps the job, would you stay as Justice Minister until 2015? Until

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2015 is a long period, but you are already begging the question as to

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whether the necessary protection is in place. Let us sing it is. If you

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are assuming protection is in place,... Let us us in it is.

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would certainly like to continue to be the Justice Minister, because I

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am seen work which I initiated coming back and the opportunity to

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carry that forward. I am not a mortal and I'm not all wise and

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all-seeing. I have colleagues who are capable of the ministers.

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Stephen Farry was sacked and he was a good minister to. We were

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supposed to have a robust action plan by the end of last year. There

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is no sign of that and we understand there are working party

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stuck in negotiations, absolutely going nowhere, do you feel were led

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up the garden path? We will have to see. You can be sure that what I

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have been doing has been to do a considerable amount of work on

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advancing the cohesive sharing strategy. We now have in the

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Programme for Government specific commitments about building

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relationships that will enable people to feel it be known. -- no

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longer need peace walls. That is a significant step forward. You will

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be you will be launching a report that we show that five balls have

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been built since 2008. I will be scene tomorrow that since I came

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into office as Minister of Justice, there has not been any building of

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new walls. There has not been any increase in in height, there has

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not been any enhancement. Whatever work has been done since 2008, was

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done between 2008 and 2010. there was work done in the context

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of direct rule ministers before I came into office. I have

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specifically refused to extend peace walls and you have seen,

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under my watch, but we have seen at gate open in Alexandra Park and you

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have reported yourself... More have gone up since 2008. It isn't my

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reports. It isn't on my watch. You have reported DUP in the last three

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years, there had been at least five new walls. In the 21 months that I

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have had responsibility, the work that has been done has been about

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building relationships, opening barriers and about getting away

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with that concept. Except that that is the reality of the current

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position. David Ford says he does not do hops,

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so his threat to walk out of the Executive is puff. Let us ignore

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the fact that alliance is only losing and ministry to undo the

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extra ministry again through the last six. Let us also glide over

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the fact that it brings the Executive more into line with the

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Good Friday Agreement, delivered at properly represent a mix of

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ministers and as cross-community and legislative backing. Let us

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ignore all that, because Mr Ford isn't actually complaining about it,

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but not much anyway. He is complaining that the structure of

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the Stormont Department has not been reformed in one go, preferably

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down to alliances favoured number of eight. Scrapping only one, which

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happens to have an Alliance Party minister, looks malicious, reckons

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Mr Ford. He isn't alone. The SDLP as puffed something similar with

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Alex Attwood calling it a missed opportunity to rearrange all the

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departments and fix the policing and just meant -- justice fudge.

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Net so says it should only have been abolished in terms of an

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independent review. What we have here is the old peace process

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principle of nothing is agrees until everything is agreed. However,

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as we saw in the peace process -- says that men of the was agreed for

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years. A green nothing until you have agreed everything is all very

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well when you are a green a grand political settlement, but anything

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else is asking for deadlock. This is especially true with

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administrative reform as we have seen that the plan for reducing the

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number of councils. Trying to reduce the number of Stormont

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departments are ones would be no different. It is far better to go

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step by step and the absurdity of Mr for's complaint is that he is

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objecting to with a step towards his own goal. Alliance says it

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wants... That is the point, the only go part way and other parts of

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the administrative jigsaw can be added later. It is bizarre to see

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this peace process mindset of nothing about everything carried

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over into the mundane business of everyday government, even to the

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extent of a party led the Lions party attempting to play a crisis

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in the peace process card. The all- party coalition encourages this,

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but there is unfinished business hanging over the department will

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issue. Does David Ford really think he can huff and puff and blow the

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house down? He may be making a fuss for internal consumption. Stephen

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Farry has been sacrificed to keep Kent in the justice ministry. How

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does he think this perfection of petulance plays with Alliance

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voters. It is good to see Stormont or at least Sinn Fein and the DUP

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realise that something can be agreed. Politics is the art of the

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possible and instalment of all places, a small step will always be

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more possible than a giant leap. The Alliance Party says it is in

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the Assembly to bring this The thoughts of Newton Emerson..

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While the political parties are having a hard time coming up with

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an agreed way on dealing with the past, some people are just getting

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on with it. Julia Paul begins her report at a school where pupils are

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learning about citizenship...from former paramilitary prisoners.

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While the political parties are Teachers introduce former

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parliamentary prisoners. They're not feel a sense of remorse? They

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may know why have done bad things to them. These men were the same

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age as these young people when they became involved in the conflict.

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you could sit down with one of your victims with all cameras of, what

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we do say to them? If you worked for me, and it does not matter what

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context, and you do not feel sorry, there is something wrong with you.

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If you could, would you go back to when you join the parlour minuted

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grip and change that decision? -- paramilitary group.

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Some are the fathers themselves. They believe that telling these

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young people about their experiences as a way of making sure

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that history is not repeating itself. I think if we ignore at our

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past, there is a tendency to come back to haunt us. The whole purpose

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of this project and the key principle is not to glorify it

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armed conflict or to justify it. This is what helps us get through

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to young people. We're going out and telling people about this. Even

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former enemies, basically hating each other, going out there and

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killing and hurting each other, now we are not. This project, from

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prison to peace, is a joint initiative between the Community

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Foundation of Northern Ireland and the School of Education at Queen's

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University. Queen's believes the project gives pupils a different

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perspective on the conflict. There are opportunities for them to learn

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about the history but it is quite a sanitised and top down narrative

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that the 11, often in history. What this gives is another perspective

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on that, another complex understanding of the conflict.

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think it is really beneficial to here their views of what the

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Troubles were like rather than just what we hear from books. Although

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we share lives with people of different backgrounds, at least we

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get to come and see what part of our history was. It is good to hear

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from both sides of it so it is beneficial for me, so whenever I go

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home, I can think. I am against paramilitaries. Taking ex-prisoners

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and to schools and even using the experience is to teach young people

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is clearly controversial. The Community Foundation says the time

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is right. Given that there has not been an effective system to address

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the issues of the past, we have to start taking baby step somewhere to

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try to create the atmosphere where people can start to ask questions.

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You might expect this integrated school to embrace the project but

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how many other schools, and in particular single denomination

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institutions, have taken this up? You're talking about a dozen

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schools and total actively engaging in the programme at the moment. The

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programme is really only now being run out in schools because last

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year was primarily about training. Teaching new generations of young

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people about the conflict is of course one way of dealing with the

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past. What about the people who lived through it? At the group,

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healing through remembering, they have come up with another idea, of

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an exhibition of objects relating to the Troubles which will visit

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different areas within the community to bring people they

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gather to talk. They have given us a loan of the

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items and we have arranged them here. Postcards, prison art, and of

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course, the iconic been led. Things that where a very day that a

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different because of the conflict. -- bin lid. When we were looking at

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the idea of a museum and the difficulties over whether there

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should be a museum, we carried out an audit. We did this in tandem

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with Queen's University and we discover 79 collections was over to

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London 50,000 items. The museum already exists - it is just that we

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do not have access to it. How do these items help people? It is

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interesting because for people who were there and remember it, the

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immediate we look at it and talk about stories and incidents and how

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different things are. For the generation after coming along, it

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does not mean anything. The understand an everyday item like a

:20:07.:20:13.

bus ticket and can see why it is different. It gives everybody a

:20:13.:20:20.

basis from which to begin the discussion. You can see ordinary

:20:20.:20:22.

people from all walks of life beginning to discuss and debate

:20:22.:20:26.

this issue and once again, the community are ahead of the

:20:26.:20:32.

politicians when it comes to this. The former or peer P M la Don

:20:32.:20:39.

Purvis is the chair of it. They need to talk the community and

:20:39.:20:44.

listen to the community. The best the 10th that was made was through

:20:44.:20:48.

the Consultative Group for the past and their report. We need to get it

:20:48.:20:58.
:20:58.:20:59.

out. We need to start again and say, how do we deal with this?

:20:59.:21:02.

The Ulster Unionist leader Tom Elliott didn't mince his words in

:21:02.:21:05.

his contribution to the debate on Scottish independence. He said it

:21:05.:21:08.

was a bigger threat than the IRA was to the Union. He's here to

:21:08.:21:11.

defend that position, and we're joined from Westminster by the

:21:11.:21:16.

Scottish Nationalist MP Angus Brendan MacNeil. Harsh words, many

:21:16.:21:24.

would say. Do you stand by them? need to recognise that I recognise

:21:24.:21:27.

that Alex Salmond was bringing forward these proposals and a

:21:27.:21:33.

peaceful and democratic manner. I accept that. At this present time,

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I see those proposals as a bigger threat to the union than the IRA as

:21:38.:21:43.

at present. I suppose one of the points Tom Elliott made was asking

:21:43.:21:47.

you to look at the sacrifices, as he would put it, that Unionists

:21:48.:21:52.

went through through 30 years have I any violence to maintain the

:21:52.:21:56.

Union. It gives you some idea of how valuable it is to them? Up I

:21:56.:22:04.

want to move away from that sort of rhetoric. We are a peaceful civic

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movement and to add up Alex Salmond and the eye area in one breath is

:22:09.:22:15.

ludicrous. I was encouraged by the moderation of Mr Elliott's earlier

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tone. What we're talking about is moving powers from Westminster to

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Holyrood. Making Scotland a country like nor where Denmark that can

:22:24.:22:30.

take part in the world. In the last 60 years, 140 other states have

:22:30.:22:34.

joined the United Nations and Scotland should be one of them.

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say it is the job but Unionists to articulate the case for keeping the

:22:37.:22:43.

unions. Here you are, persuade him. I think he will be well aware of

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mind and many other Unionists concerns about the break-up of the

:22:46.:22:51.

Union. I think we do well as part of the family of the United Kingdom.

:22:51.:22:56.

We met up a good family. We have a lot to offer and Scotland has a lot

:22:56.:23:01.

to offer the union as does Northern Ireland. I think together, we can

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be a much more prosperous society. I have to say, I think if you look

:23:08.:23:14.

at the figures, it costs the UK Exchequer �1,600 per person for

:23:14.:23:20.

every man, woman and child in Scotland. I have to ask, which

:23:20.:23:24.

union is he talking about? And I am not clear which she is talking

:23:24.:23:34.
:23:34.:23:34.

about. From which here? We are within the United Kingdom that

:23:34.:23:38.

works well within the European Union. I think Scotland has a lot

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to offer full stop which union? general terms, everyone acceded to

:23:47.:23:53.

the union in different centuries. Let us take it from 2012. There was

:23:54.:23:58.

the Union of 17 07 between Scotland and England. We will be ending that

:23:58.:24:02.

union when the move powers from Westminster to Holyrood. The union

:24:02.:24:07.

of 16 or three of the crowns, we will be keeping that union and the

:24:07.:24:09.

Queen of the remaining head of state in Scotland as he does

:24:09.:24:15.

elsewhere. From the 16 of the perspective, I am a unionist.

:24:15.:24:20.

cannot be a unionist if you want to divide the unions. I want to retain

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the union of the crowns. Per Scotland has a huge questions to

:24:25.:24:29.

answer and I have not heard any of them. What will they do with the

:24:29.:24:33.

EU? Will they keep the pound sterling. There are a lot of

:24:33.:24:36.

questions and I think they are a much more viable entity as the

:24:36.:24:46.
:24:46.:24:46.

United Kingdom. There are multiple unions and I would like him to say

:24:46.:24:51.

which he means. If he is a unionist, he must be speaking of one union at

:24:51.:24:56.

some point in time and I think that should be established. I think it's

:24:56.:25:00.

quite clear, I do not know what that the union is about -- argument

:25:00.:25:06.

is about. We are speaking of the union that has operated in the

:25:06.:25:10.

European Union for the last couple of decades. It is the Union of

:25:10.:25:15.

today. We are speaking about it since the accession to the European

:25:15.:25:19.

Union in the 1970s. You're splitting hairs. We all know what

:25:19.:25:24.

we're talking about. I am a unionist in 16 or three terms but

:25:25.:25:28.

not and 70 No 7 terms and they want to establish what end of Unionist

:25:28.:25:35.

he is full stop shall we use the 17 07 their permission? You want a

:25:35.:25:45.
:25:45.:25:46.

breakaway from political control from London. It is quite simple.

:25:46.:25:49.

You have been criticised from the Republic is well with people saying

:25:49.:25:54.

that for all its problems, it it is a much better place to be than

:25:54.:25:58.

Northern Ireland. I do not accept that and I have to say that if you

:25:59.:26:03.

look at the last century, large numbers migrated from the Republic

:26:03.:26:07.

because there was not the work or the opportunities there for them

:26:07.:26:11.

that there is in the United Kingdom. Many of them migrated to many of

:26:11.:26:14.

the cities in the United Kingdom and some of them in Scotland. I

:26:15.:26:19.

think they have gone for better opportunities. I do not want

:26:19.:26:22.

Scotland to become a small independent state that is reliant

:26:22.:26:25.

and has to export their young people instead of holding on to

:26:25.:26:33.

them. Is that what you're offering? We do not have to be ruled from the

:26:33.:26:37.

house at number three on the state. We can all govern ourselves with an

:26:37.:26:40.

our own houses and get on well with their neighbours and that is what

:26:40.:26:44.

will happen. The Republic of Ireland is one example and I would

:26:44.:26:47.

argue that the Republic of Ireland would be far smaller today had it

:26:47.:26:51.

stayed in the unions. Their successful countries like Norway

:26:51.:26:57.

with a smaller population than Scotland and a similar geography.

:26:57.:27:01.

In the world league, it is number one of everything including GT pipa

:27:01.:27:05.

cap above. The Republic of Ireland as high up in those terms than

:27:05.:27:08.

United Kingdom. We can stay together as a family in much the

:27:08.:27:13.

same way that the Scandinavian countries did. They are known as

:27:13.:27:19.

the Scandinavian Mafia. They represent 25 million people and

:27:19.:27:24.

work together. Rather than looking for fears, I think he should be

:27:24.:27:29.

looking for the opportunities of friendliness and reaching out.

:27:29.:27:32.

do you understand why you're striving for independence makes him

:27:32.:27:41.

so nervous? Politics in Northern Ireland might be about totems and

:27:41.:27:44.

we're a bit practical and sensible stuff and we are renowned for being

:27:44.:27:48.

like that as a people. That is why we are moving towards independence,

:27:48.:27:53.

on that basis of sense and practicality. It would be good for

:27:53.:27:59.

not just this generation but generations become. The nearly done.

:27:59.:28:04.

I must ask about your press assessor, David Trimble, who says

:28:04.:28:09.

you acted stupidly in turning down a merger with the Tories. He is a

:28:09.:28:13.

member of the Tory party now and is entitled to his views. I do not

:28:13.:28:19.

agree with him and I think my party would totally back me in not

:28:19.:28:24.

disbanding the Ulster Unionists. The opportunity to take over the

:28:24.:28:28.

Tories. What I said was I am not disbanding the Ulster Unionist

:28:28.:28:32.

Party and that is what I was asked to do. You would rather he kept his

:28:32.:28:36.

nose out of it? It is his decision and he is now a member of the

:28:36.:28:41.

Conservative Party so he is entitled to his opinion.

:28:41.:28:46.

Thank you both. We must leave it there. Back next week at the usual

:28:46.:28:56.
:28:56.:29:01.

Some carry on this week. Even in recession, ways to make money.

:29:01.:29:07.

Teachers are being bribed, sorry, paid to leave early. They have been

:29:07.:29:17.
:29:17.:29:18.

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