Browse content similar to 26/01/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the programme. Coming up this week: | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
Does the Shadow Secretary think the coalition's policies are bearing | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
fruit in Northern Ireland? Can the UUP continue to reject the | :00:30. | :00:36. | |
loving overtures from the DUP? And despite opposition in the Lords, | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
will strong public support allow the Government to brush off the | :00:39. | :00:49. | |
:00:49. | :00:50. | ||
The Shadow Secretary of State is in town for a regular update and | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
Vernon Coaker is with me for his first visit to the programme since | :00:53. | :01:03. | |
:01:03. | :01:06. | ||
his accession last autumn. It would seem in these days of | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
devolution and the like that your job would be one of the most | :01:10. | :01:16. | |
interesting. Since I have taken office I have gone out of my way to | :01:16. | :01:25. | |
come to Northern Ireland to speak to people. There are still a lot of | :01:25. | :01:31. | |
decisions that are made in London at about tax and spend and welfare. | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
I want to be an informed voice for Northern Ireland in London, but I | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
have to do that by coming here. Finance Minister has been painting | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
a rosy picture of the Northern Ireland economy. We have good | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
direct foreign investment and have not lost all the jobs people said | :01:48. | :01:57. | |
we would lose and the public sector. Everything seems to be pretty good. | :01:57. | :02:04. | |
There is a lot of grounds for hope. What would you change? Well, last | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
year I went to a conference about the Northern Ireland tourist | :02:07. | :02:13. | |
industry. Things were looking good, but we need to look at the issues | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
that concern people because there will be some job losses, the | :02:18. | :02:25. | |
welfare reform policies will take money from Northern Ireland. There | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
are issues. So, Sammy Wilson seen the work through rose-tinted | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
glasses? And not at all. He wants to paint a picture of Northern | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
Ireland that is positive. Alongside that we have to raise issues about | :02:38. | :02:48. | |
:02:48. | :02:49. | ||
welfare, problems that face families with children with | :02:49. | :02:58. | |
disabilities. We are seeing money taken our of capital. The coalition | :02:58. | :03:05. | |
would say because of the financial situation at the Labour government | :03:05. | :03:13. | |
landed us in, but what would you change? The overall strategy of the | :03:13. | :03:22. | |
government is to cut too far and too quickly. There are issues and | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
there are difficulties. One of the things we have set as a positive | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
step forward is we could have a plan for jobs and growth. One of | :03:30. | :03:37. | |
the ways of doing that is to have a temporary cut in VAT to bring | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
investment projects, to have National Insurance holidays for | :03:40. | :03:47. | |
small businesses and to do other things like creating schemes for | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
the young unemployed. A lot of things can be done to help. The as | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
well be done on a national level? Of course. The VAT rate is | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
something set at Westminster. That is an example of the decisions | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
taken in London that in pack Northern Ireland. Would you give | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
Northern Ireland more? Certainly in Northern Ireland would have done | :04:08. | :04:14. | |
better under the economic strategy had we been in government. We said | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
the deficit is being reduced to quickly. The consequence of that is | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
Northern Ireland will lose �4 billion over the next few years. | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
But what you have given us? would have been a matter of looking | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
at the box, but what I am saying is that clearly Northern Ireland would | :04:30. | :04:35. | |
have done better under a Labour government. If you should win the | :04:35. | :04:42. | |
election in 2015, you would increase the Northern Ireland block | :04:42. | :04:50. | |
grant? When we get to 2015, during the run-up to the election, or we | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
will need to look at what is happening. We do not know where we | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
will be in three years' time. people say we are enduring the | :04:57. | :05:03. | |
worst crisis for generations. Many would say it cannot get worse, so | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
it it even now you are say you would have given Northern Ireland | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
more money, surely you can say that in a few years you will give us | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
more money? Be could get worse. Unemployment is rising, businesses | :05:16. | :05:22. | |
are closing. It could get worse. is easy to sit in Opposition and | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
say, we will give you more. What we have done is to say there are | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
choices the government makes that impacts the UK and Northern Ireland | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
economy. They make the choice to raise VAT and not tax the bankers | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
in the way we would have done. Even in an austerity budget, you can | :05:42. | :05:52. | |
:05:52. | :05:57. | ||
make choices that are fair to everyone. Will the private sector | :05:57. | :06:03. | |
proper job lost and the public sector? Well, the impact it is | :06:03. | :06:09. | |
having to pretend that what the government is doing his a strategy | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
for jobs and growth when clearly all we are seeing is a decline in | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
growth, as we have seen in the UK... At but not so bad in Northern | :06:19. | :06:27. | |
Ireland. Manufacturing output is growing up -- going up. There have | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
been good figures in Northern Ireland and it is something to be | :06:30. | :06:38. | |
pleased about. However, one in five young people are out of work. | :06:38. | :06:46. | |
not the same in the UK? More or less. We need to do something to | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
help the young people and that is where some of the difficulty arises | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
with the government's welfare reforms. Given the Cup thats in | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
Westminster, is the Executive going the right way? By the Assembly are | :07:00. | :07:07. | |
trying to do is in that sense act as a shield, to do the best they | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
can. My job is to be a voice for Northern Ireland to support them | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
and protect the interests of Northern Ireland and its people. | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
The secretary of state a win Patterson is concentrating on | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
legacy issues, have to do with the past. What is your big idea? | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
secretary of state was given a way forward when the Assembly said what | :07:29. | :07:34. | |
they wanted him to do was to facilitate all party talks on try | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
to find a way forward. They did not asking to find a solution, they | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
asked him to facilitate talks which would allow... Are thought he asked | :07:43. | :07:52. | |
them? Well, maybe, but they asked him to facilitate talks. He has | :07:52. | :07:59. | |
written to them on a bilateral basis asking for individual talks. | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
Do you have an idea? I would have facilitated all party talks and I | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
would have looked to see what the role of the victims and survivors | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
would have been in that process. you think it is possible to come up | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
with the way that will satisfy all those conflicting interests? So in | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
that fantastic progress made in the last few years in Northern Ireland. | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
People many years ago may have said that progress would have been | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
impossible. In the end, people look at difficult issues and they come | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
to conclusions to find a way forward. It is possible, but it | :08:32. | :08:39. | |
would be difficult. But you don't have a single big idea? The | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
Secretary of State is talking about eight documentary archive. A I do | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
not want to come up with a good idea and say, this is what you | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
should do. It is a matter for the people of Northern Ireland to do | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
that. What is important is the Secretary of State having been | :08:55. | :09:02. | |
asked to facilitate talks, it I were him, I would be facilitating | :09:02. | :09:09. | |
those talks. What of your party colleagues Peter Hain is in trouble | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
with the Lord Chief Justice at the comments he made in his | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
autobiography over the appointment of a senior judge. Do you think | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
Peter Hain is in very deep water? What Peter Hain said is a matter | :09:19. | :09:25. | |
for him. We all respect the independence of the judiciary and | :09:25. | :09:32. | |
respect the work they do. Is he out of order? Well, Peter Hain... | :09:32. | :09:38. | |
he out of order? He has made his comments. I don't know what | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
happened, but I know the independence of the judiciary is an | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
important matter of principle for us all and I have great confidence | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
in it. And you don't want to get involved? I do not know what | :09:51. | :09:59. | |
happens... You thought he was off his rocker! All I know is that the | :09:59. | :10:05. | |
Northern Ireland judiciary is a proud part of the system and its | :10:05. | :10:15. | |
:10:15. | :10:19. | ||
independence must be maintained. Well, here we are. A couple of | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
weeks away from St Valentine's Day and the air is already thick with | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
the whoosh and thud of Cupid's arrows and the penning of anonymous | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
sweet nothings. Peter Robinson has taken a blunter, more public | :10:28. | :10:30. | |
approach, sending his card courtesy of a television interview: | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
"Oh Tom, recall our former glories. So let's have a snog, now you've | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
dumped the Tories." OK, it's not up there with Byron | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
and Shakespeare, but the sentiment is the same. And he's taken the | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
precaution of sending it in a Leap Year, which is a good thing, since | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
it usually takes the UUP about four years to make up its mind about any | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
invitation. The problem with the UUP is that it | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
is very difficult to keep up with the plot. First it was a fling with | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
the Conservatives. Then an up- market menage a trois with the | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
Conservatives and DUP at Hatfield House, with a bit of Orange slap | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
and tickle below stairs. Then back to the Conservatives, before the | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
suggestion of a wife-swapping session with the SDLP on the | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
Opposition benches. Then "yes" to the Conservatives, | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
followed by a final "no" and now a raising of the skirt and fluttering | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
of the eyelashes at the DUP. It's a wonderfully bizarre soap-opera with | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
props tumbling and key members of the cast struggling to remember | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
with whom they are having their latest affair. | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
Meanwhile the local Conservatives are doing their best to convince us | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
that they are relevant again. Not an easy thing when you have no | :11:22. | :11:24. | |
elected representatives and less obvious appeal than the Hunchback | :11:24. | :11:29. | |
Of Notre Dame at a swingers party. Having been here for 23 years, they | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
have become like one of those 'noticed only from the corner of | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
your eye' trolley patients you don't quite see in Casualty or | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
Holby. No matter how many times the crash team is called, or how many | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
volts are pumped into the body, you always know that a sheet will be | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
pulled over the face as they are wheeled into the morgue against the | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
background noise of a flat-lining heart detector. | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
Apparently, they are re-launching themselves again in early spring as | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
the 'Utterly Butterly, I Can't Believe It's Not The Same Old | :11:53. | :11:55. | |
Conservative Party' Party, chock-a- block with UUP defectors who didn't | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
manage to get selected or elected under their old colours. | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
You have to admire their chutzpah. Weeks ago Central Office was | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
planning to disband them altogether and fold them into a new | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
organisation in which they would be swamped by the UUP. Yet they now | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
have to pretend that a solo run was what they wanted all along. | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
Maybe David Trimble was right. If Tom Elliott had done a Mr Del Monte | :12:18. | :12:20. | |
and said yes, then the NI Conservatives would have vanished | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
overnight and not been missed until a sacrificial candidate was | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
required for West Belfast or Foyle. Mind you, being accused of | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
political stupidity by David Trimble is a bit like being accused | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
of pomposity by David Ford. Anyway, both the UUP and the newly | :12:34. | :12:36. | |
self-styled Northern Irish Conservatives face huge hurdles if | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
they are to survive. They are less like real teams or even subs on the | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
electoral benches and more like spectators in the stands. And even | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
at that, I'm not convinced that either of them any longer | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
understands the game being played, let alone the rules. | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
There is a non-voting, pro-Union constituency out there that could | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
be tapped into. I suspect, however, that the UUP and Conservatives, | :12:57. | :12:59. | |
singly and collectively, have left it too late and made too many | :13:00. | :13:02. | |
mistakes to make the necessary impact on it. Leaving this question | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
- who will re-engage the growing numbers of politically and | :13:05. | :13:15. | |
:13:15. | :13:16. | ||
electorally disinterested? thought of Alex Kane. We have | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
already heard how Peter Hain's or Prost -- autobiography has got him | :13:21. | :13:27. | |
into hot water, but it does give insight into the peace process and | :13:27. | :13:37. | |
:13:37. | :13:38. | ||
about the politicians he had to In 2005 the peace process was | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
faltering and the job of Secretary of State was back to being seen as | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
a poisoned chalice. What sort of tactics did you have to use to put | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
pressure on the party's to try and get them to work together? It was | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
very difficult. People had been used to saying no on both sides. | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
The public were saying, why should they continue to get these expenses | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
and have their salaries paid? I deployed that argument. The water | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
charges and some of the other reforms I introduced, I did them | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
because I believed that why should my constituents in Wales or for | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
that matter residents in Scotland or England their water charges but | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
Northern Ireland residents not? Introducing that, I was well aware, | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
and deliberately used it as a tactic to say, the solution is in | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
your hands. You get your politicians into government and | :14:26. | :14:33. | |
they can abolish them. Two years later the tactics have paid off. On | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
7th May, 2007, the world came to watch as the assembly finally | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
returned to Stormont. But did Peter Hain get the credit he deserved? | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
Others had worked very hard over the years, especially Tony Blair | :14:45. | :14:52. | |
and Bertie Ahern. It's for others to judge. Many thought I didn't but | :14:52. | :14:57. | |
I'm not... It's not for me to say really. All I know was what people | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
closely involved, including journalists and observers at the | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
time said to me and said elsewhere that they don't think it would have | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
been achieved on that timescale, had I not been in the job at the | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
time. I felt it was the one thing that I'd done in government that I | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
felt most proud of. But they have been no settlement without the | :15:18. | :15:26. | |
politicians here. So what were they like to work with? In his book, | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
Outside In, Peter Hain describes Ian Paisley as a real gentleman | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
with old-fashioned manners. Mark Durkan was a talented leader with | :15:34. | :15:39. | |
an enviable facility for phrase- making. In meetings, Gerry Adams | :15:39. | :15:45. | |
and Martin McGuinness sometimes played good cop bad cop. And David | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
Ford was pernickety and quick to take offence. The real show in town | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
was Sinn Fein and the DUP. There was resentment about that from the | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
Alliance Party also much the same kind of crumbling came from the | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
SDLP, because they too were like the Ulster Unionists, on the | :16:00. | :16:05. | |
margins of the big picture. You've described Ian Paisley as an old- | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
fashioned gentleman. Yet that you doesn't chime with the many people | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
who think he holds some responsibility for the Troubles. | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
understand the point but dealing with him on a one-to-one basis was | :16:16. | :16:23. | |
a joy. He's a lovely man to talk to. Where they are times when you found | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
him difficult to work with? course I found him difficult to | :16:26. | :16:33. | |
work with. Partly because he was a prisoner of both his own past and | :16:33. | :16:39. | |
important elements in the DUP who didn't want him. All were very | :16:39. | :16:45. | |
reluctant. He was at times very slow and then at times very | :16:45. | :16:51. | |
courageous and fast. In the end, he left over his party to the anxiety | :16:51. | :16:56. | |
and nervousness and opposition and criticism of some of the DUP banks, | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
to make this courageous leap. I don't think anybody else in | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
Unionism could have done that. it wasn't just the Unionists that | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
have to be brought to the table. What effect did the northern bank | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
robbery and the murder of Robert McCartney have on your dealings | :17:12. | :17:18. | |
with Sinn Fein? I remember saying to Gerry Adams wants, referring to | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
the northern bank robbery, he dismissed it and said the IRA and | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
Sinn Fein had nothing to do with that. The kind of jocularly chided | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
me for saying, you were falsely accused of a bank theft once, this | :17:32. | :17:42. | |
:17:42. | :17:43. | ||
was a bizarre 1975 bank theft that the South African security services | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
said. He and I knew those cases were very different. Did you find | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
it hard to trust Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, given the | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
general belief of the IRA's involvement in those two issues? | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
Well, they once said to me, we never trust anyone, Secretary of | :18:00. | :18:05. | |
State, we never trust any British politician. I understand that. If | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
you can build a trust where if you shake hands on an agreement, | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
however difficult it has been, they know that you will deliver and you | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
know that they will deliver. It's that kind of trust. I didn't find | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
any problem with Martin McGuinness or Gerry Adams. On the contrary, | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
they kept their word. It was this image that went around the world | :18:23. | :18:28. | |
and signalled the peace deal in 2007. But Peter Hain says even the | :18:28. | :18:34. | |
picture wasn't easy to achieve. sums up the difficult politics of | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
Northern Ireland. Ian Paisley would not sit on the same side of the | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
table next to Gerry Adams. Gerry Adams wanted to. We wanted be | :18:41. | :18:46. | |
historic picture, which we got, of the two of them together. So we had | :18:46. | :18:52. | |
an arrangement whereby a table was diamond shaped so that Ian Paisley | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
was on the left-hand side facing them, and Gerry Adams was on the | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
right-hand side of it. All the world they were sitting next to | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
each other and were photographed as such but Ian Paisley's principles | :19:05. | :19:11. | |
were protected and so were Gerry Adams'. The intimate thoughts of | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
the former Secretary of State, Peter Hain. The Government's | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
proposed welfare reforms have provoked the fiercest debate. At | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
one end of the spectrum we have disgusted of Surbiton, who thinks | :19:21. | :19:23. | |
every benefit claimant is it cheap and should be punished. At the | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
other, the beating heart offering visions of homeless children around | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
the country. Hearts and Minds is only for enlightened, rational | :19:31. | :19:39. | |
debate, so let's have some with Les Allamby and Graham Gudgin. Les | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
Allamby, the government does seem to feel it has widespread public | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
support for these reforms. It seems to be able to laugh off the | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
criticisms from the Lords and from others. Do you think that's the | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
case? I think they've got some popular support but I think that is | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
popular support based on a gross misconception. That is the notion | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
that somehow a very large numbers of people get a great deal of money | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
on benefit. If you look at the Cap, 60 % of the people affected by the | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
cap live in London. That's because of high housing costs. In order for | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
this cacti have some impact in Northern Ireland, you are going to | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
have to have a very considerable number of children, possibly be a | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
carer and getting carers benefits. Perhaps they should say nothing | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
because they are pretty much going to be OK. The housing cost side | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
will mean the impact will be far less prevalent than London and the | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
south-east. But we have larger families and larger families can | :20:33. | :20:41. | |
have an impact on the cap. David Cameron, I saw him almost playing | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
to the gallery about, well, you wouldn't expect people to get | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
�26,000 on benefit. If you had a number of children, if you had a | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
reasonably high housing costs and if you were a carer looking after | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
your elderly relative, you could find yourself caught by this cap. | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
It doesn't seem to me when you are saving the state money elsewhere | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
that you should be caught by a benefit cap. The vast majority of | :21:03. | :21:09. | |
people don't... Are not better off on benefit than they would be in | :21:09. | :21:15. | |
work. Graham Gudgin, is it just headlined seeking, this cap? | :21:15. | :21:21. | |
probably is politics, it's mainly about London and some other areas | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
in the south-east where rents are very high. The real question there | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
is, it's not a question for Robben Island at all, but the real | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
question is - should you be encouraging or subsidising low | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
income people to live in central London? The government has done | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
this for generations by building council houses there. It seems to | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
me a pretty reprobate step to say, look, anyone unloading comes won't | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
be able to live there. What they're going to have to do is the 20 miles | :21:50. | :21:56. | |
out and commute into to a cleaning job at 6am. As do many middle | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
income families who can't afford to live in the centre of London. | :21:59. | :22:05. | |
do. Do come back to your original question, there is a very strong | :22:05. | :22:11. | |
groundswell of support for reforms to welfare. I think there are so | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
many unfairnesses and disincentives to work in the current system. The | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
new system is trying to iron a lot of that out. I think it will help. | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
It's not such a big revolution as all that in my view, but it's very | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
much a move in the right direction to have a... How do you think this | :22:28. | :22:36. | |
will affect Northern Ireland? People don't work on this. -- | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
people have done work on this. It will even out in the way that some | :22:39. | :22:44. | |
people will get more money on benefits and others will get less. | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
On the way in which it will hit Northern Ireland is the disability | :22:49. | :22:50. | |
living allowance, will be have extraordinary large numbers of | :22:50. | :22:55. | |
households claiming that benefit. It's like the disability capital of | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
the UK for some reason. It's very interesting to speculate on why | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
that is. But the government is quite keen that's a separate issue | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
in cutting down the number of beneficiaries there. 185,500 | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
claimants of delay in Northern Ireland. Your figures show that. | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
I'm not as sanguine as Graham is about the impact in terms of | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
somehow been evening out and very reasonable. What these changes will | :23:22. | :23:27. | |
do is effectively take about 500 to 600 million out of the economy in | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
terms of benefit cuts. One thing we know about benefit claimants is by | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
and large they spend virtually all their money in the local economy. | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
For example, a single person on jobseeker's allowance gets �67.50. | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
He or she spent that money in the local economy. This is the economic | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
issue as well... Would it get more people into work? It would generate | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
more money for the economy. idea that people are better off in | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
work than out of work, again you need to unpacked back slightly. Yes, | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
generally speaking people are better off in work, both | :24:01. | :24:03. | |
financially and for their well- being. However, we have working | :24:03. | :24:09. | |
poor as well as workless poor. It's important we realise that. With | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
lone-parent, and the research suggests again that while lone | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
parents are better off in work financially, there is a cost of | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
that in terms of how your well- being is, the time you spend in | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
work, what time you have to get up and the morning, there would you | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
have to do. There is a lost them as well. It's not as straightforward | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
as have the same work is good and workless is bad. Do you think in | :24:28. | :24:35. | |
principle that reform is required? Yes. But if we look back, Universal | :24:35. | :24:40. | |
Credit is potentially quite a good concept. It came from a dynamic | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
benefits modelling which the Centre for Social Justice suspend -- | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
suggested spending 4 billion on in order to spend to save, and it | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
would pay for itself. The government is prepared to spend 2 | :24:50. | :24:55. | |
billion. The problem is we've cut the idea, it's been cut in terms of | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
trying to do it on the cheap. Their bald the simplification that this | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
was designed to do, the work incentives this was designed to | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
have are actually being impacted by saving money. Given we are taking | :25:07. | :25:14. | |
22 billion out of the UK economy from changes before this government, | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
we should have spent the money that dynamic benefits suggested to have | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
on a proper system. You spoke about disincentives to work, but if there | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
aren't any job than what is the point of these reforms? | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
something the Labour government should have done during the good | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
times. The coalition are having to do it under present conditions and | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
it really is the worst time to do it. Beyond that, I think we should | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
have a contract in society and go back what to -- go back to what we | :25:43. | :25:45. | |
had before. All parties agree that we should have full employment, | :25:45. | :25:50. | |
there should be jobs for everybody and there we can put pressure on | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
the social security system. Lords have been making much of the | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
impact of these reforms, the potential impact on children and | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
children in poverty. Do you think that is justified? Absolutely. One | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
of the paradoxes about his coalition government's set of | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
reforms is the Conservative Party is the party of the family and yet | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
we have frozen child benefit for three years, we have made cuts to | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
support and child care for exactly the families who may have steam | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
coming out of their ears after what I've said. In reality, that group | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
of people have been hit badly. If you have a second child you are | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
losing the Sure Start Maternity Grant. The Health and pregnancy | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
Grant is going. Much of the attack is on families, particularly on | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
families on low to middle incomes. It seems to be very strange, the | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
set of targets seem to be strained. We all appear to be in this | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
together as a result of the economic mess we are in. Why the | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
focus is on families and particularly families with young | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
children is beyond me. Child benefit is one of the big | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
controversies. What do you think is going to end up having their? | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
have been in a silly position for a long time, that we give child | :26:58. | :27:03. | |
benefits to very affluent families. This is just recycling money. The | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
ticket of them in tax and give it back in child benefit. Then there | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
are civil servants having jobs in between come administering all of | :27:09. | :27:14. | |
this. There's a lot of sorting out to be done. I do rather agree with | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
lairs. If you look at the Scandinavian countries that have | :27:17. | :27:22. | |
spent a lot more on social security than we do even in the UK, even | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
more than in Northern Ireland, a lot of that is going on child | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
benefit and child care. That is a good investment for society. We | :27:30. | :27:36. | |
should be doing more of it. Let me make the case for child benefit | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
being a universal benefit. I'd be in favour of a more progressive tax | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
system, a more sensible way of bringing in money that was fairer. | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
But the virtue of child benefit being universal is it's very simple, | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
it's paid to mothers. The interesting bit about this new | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
Universal Credit benefit that replaces the tax credit is almost | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
certainly it can be paid to either partner, it will probably end up in | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
the wallet rather than the purse. That is a regressive step back to | :28:02. | :28:04. | |
the 80s when all the research showed there were problems with | :28:04. | :28:09. | |
that in terms of where money is managed. It is managed by women, | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
and the benefits look like they're going to be back being paid to men. | :28:13. | :28:18. | |
That is where we must look at this time around. We will be back at the | :28:18. | :28:25. | |
usual time next week. I hope you will join us. Goodbye. What am I, | :28:25. | :28:30. | |
invisible? Some carry on this week. People are confused. Basically, you | :28:30. | :28:36. | |
put your application in, you take your application out. In out in | :28:36. | :28:41. | |
about you shake it all about. That's what it's all about! Some | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
people don't like Derry be in the UK City of Culture. Particularly | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
upset of the Real IRA, especially the Londonderry branch. Yes, | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
Londonderry dissidents want Londonderry to be the UK's City of | :28:53. | :28:58. |