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On row upon row of shelves in libraries like this one | 0:00:28 | 0:00:32 | |
in the heart of the House of Commons, there are books | 0:00:32 | 0:00:34 | |
on philosophy, society and politics. | 0:00:34 | 0:00:37 | |
But there are only a very few authors who have managed to combine | 0:00:37 | 0:00:40 | |
all three disciplines and seen their ideas adopted | 0:00:40 | 0:00:44 | |
and sometimes put into practice. | 0:00:44 | 0:00:45 | |
Working as a political journalist at a time when politics is | 0:00:45 | 0:00:48 | |
viewed with such scepticism, we asked some famous faces to | 0:00:48 | 0:00:52 | |
choose those political thinkers they think really are worth celebrating. | 0:00:52 | 0:00:57 | |
In this programme, we're going to look at those who have laid | 0:00:57 | 0:00:59 | |
the very foundation stones of our British political system. | 0:00:59 | 0:01:02 | |
We're actually going to start in a different library, | 0:01:02 | 0:01:05 | |
locked in on some very old manuscripts. | 0:01:05 | 0:01:07 | |
John Locke, whose portrait is behind me, | 0:01:24 | 0:01:26 | |
was an early Fellow of the Royal Society. | 0:01:26 | 0:01:29 | |
He joined in 1668, before Isaac Newton did. | 0:01:29 | 0:01:33 | |
Here in the library of the Royal Society in Pall Mall, I have | 0:01:33 | 0:01:36 | |
in front of me letters that Locke wrote back to the Royal Society. | 0:01:36 | 0:01:40 | |
One here from Montpellier, 1678, | 0:01:40 | 0:01:43 | |
Observations Of The Moon, that he just thought would be interesting. | 0:01:43 | 0:01:47 | |
Here, in Paris, a letter written back, Observations | 0:01:47 | 0:01:50 | |
On A Medical Quirk, a boy who appeared to have been growing horns. | 0:01:50 | 0:01:54 | |
Here, a constitution for part of colonial America. | 0:01:54 | 0:01:58 | |
Things like this became | 0:01:58 | 0:01:59 | |
the foundation for the American Constitution. | 0:01:59 | 0:02:02 | |
This is a man with varied interests and interesting things to say. | 0:02:02 | 0:02:06 | |
Today we'd call him a polymath. | 0:02:06 | 0:02:08 | |
But I am off to meet a Labour MP who thinks his philosophies | 0:02:08 | 0:02:11 | |
of politics are what make him really relevant and relevant to today. | 0:02:11 | 0:02:16 | |
So let's start at the very beginning. | 0:02:16 | 0:02:18 | |
Lisa, we have come to a nursery, which might seem a bit odd, | 0:02:24 | 0:02:27 | |
but of course it is one of Locke's big theories, the tabula rasa, | 0:02:27 | 0:02:30 | |
that we are all born a blank slate and accumulate knowledge. | 0:02:30 | 0:02:34 | |
But when you were learning about Locke, what was it that excited you? | 0:02:34 | 0:02:37 | |
That theory made a huge splash at the time, but actually what | 0:02:37 | 0:02:41 | |
excited me was the theory of equality that Locke puts forward. | 0:02:41 | 0:02:44 | |
We are in this nursery, surrounded by children, | 0:02:44 | 0:02:47 | |
all of them with very different characteristics. | 0:02:47 | 0:02:49 | |
But what Locke argued was that, for the purposes of political | 0:02:49 | 0:02:53 | |
representation, none of those differences matter, we are all equal. | 0:02:53 | 0:02:57 | |
So when I first picked up these books at university | 0:02:57 | 0:02:59 | |
and found this radical idea in the middle of what is really quite | 0:02:59 | 0:03:02 | |
an establishment figure in his thought, I thought | 0:03:02 | 0:03:05 | |
this is a guy who is really worth reading. | 0:03:05 | 0:03:08 | |
Those radical ideas get him into trouble with the establishment. | 0:03:08 | 0:03:12 | |
I want to take you to the scene of what may or may not have | 0:03:12 | 0:03:14 | |
been a plot he was involved in but certainly causes problems for him. | 0:03:14 | 0:03:18 | |
Brilliant, let's go. | 0:03:18 | 0:03:19 | |
Lisa, this is Rye House. | 0:03:25 | 0:03:27 | |
Well, it is just the gatehouse now, the rest of it is gone. | 0:03:27 | 0:03:30 | |
But in 1683 Locke is implicated in a plot to kill Charles II, | 0:03:30 | 0:03:37 | |
who is King, and his brother James, who will become King, | 0:03:37 | 0:03:40 | |
will become James II. Locke has to flee, to the Netherlands. | 0:03:40 | 0:03:43 | |
He doesn't come back to Britain until the Glorious Revolution | 0:03:43 | 0:03:48 | |
and William is installed on the throne, William of Orange. | 0:03:48 | 0:03:51 | |
It seems to me that Locke is adapting to those people | 0:03:51 | 0:03:54 | |
who are in power | 0:03:54 | 0:03:55 | |
cos they happen to believe the sort of things that he believes. | 0:03:55 | 0:03:58 | |
Actually, Giles, I think | 0:03:58 | 0:03:59 | |
you are looking at this the wrong way round, | 0:03:59 | 0:04:01 | |
because Locke was writing for those | 0:04:01 | 0:04:03 | |
people in positions of power, people who had the ability to change things. | 0:04:03 | 0:04:07 | |
At times this makes his philosophy seem inconsistent, | 0:04:07 | 0:04:11 | |
perhaps even a bit incoherent when you take it as a whole. | 0:04:11 | 0:04:15 | |
The really exciting thing about Locke is that he wasn't just a thinker, | 0:04:15 | 0:04:18 | |
he was also a doer. | 0:04:18 | 0:04:19 | |
He lives through these tremendous times, huge religious turmoil | 0:04:19 | 0:04:23 | |
and this battle for power between King and Parliament. | 0:04:23 | 0:04:27 | |
His argument about the limits of power on the Sovereign changed | 0:04:27 | 0:04:31 | |
what was to happen next. | 0:04:31 | 0:04:33 | |
Dr Elizabeth Frazer of Oxford University is clear, | 0:04:33 | 0:04:36 | |
not only does Locke affect what happens next here | 0:04:36 | 0:04:39 | |
but abroad too, by making a simple argument. | 0:04:39 | 0:04:43 | |
Locke is the great theorist of anti-patriarchy. | 0:04:43 | 0:04:47 | |
He set out to argue that patriarchalist theory, | 0:04:47 | 0:04:51 | |
which was very common in the 17th century, | 0:04:51 | 0:04:54 | |
the idea that political power is the power of the father | 0:04:54 | 0:04:59 | |
over his sons, it is the power of the husband over his wife | 0:04:59 | 0:05:03 | |
and that is what the King's power is. | 0:05:03 | 0:05:06 | |
He set out to show that that is false. | 0:05:06 | 0:05:09 | |
So, Lisa, this is All Saints, High Laver in Essex, | 0:05:15 | 0:05:18 | |
where Locke worshipped for the last 13 years of his life. | 0:05:18 | 0:05:20 | |
He lived in the area and he is buried in the churchyard. | 0:05:20 | 0:05:23 | |
But church is quite important to one of his principal philosophies, | 0:05:23 | 0:05:27 | |
the separation of powers between church, | 0:05:27 | 0:05:30 | |
government - in the form of the King - and the judiciary. | 0:05:30 | 0:05:33 | |
The important thing about Locke was that he was | 0:05:33 | 0:05:35 | |
concerned with the limits of government power. | 0:05:35 | 0:05:37 | |
Instead of seeing the monarchy as ruling by divine right | 0:05:37 | 0:05:41 | |
handed down to them by God, he saw power as resting with the people. | 0:05:41 | 0:05:46 | |
It was this idea that paved the way for the American War | 0:05:46 | 0:05:49 | |
of Independence and for the French Revolution. | 0:05:49 | 0:05:52 | |
If you look at the American Constitution, you can | 0:05:52 | 0:05:54 | |
see Locke written into every line of that document. | 0:05:54 | 0:05:59 | |
It is surprising, really, that this most | 0:05:59 | 0:06:01 | |
conservative of philosophers should end up pushing forward ideas that | 0:06:01 | 0:06:06 | |
were tremendously radical and would have such a revolutionary impact. | 0:06:06 | 0:06:10 | |
Speaking about the church, he is very interested in religion, | 0:06:10 | 0:06:13 | |
isn't he? | 0:06:13 | 0:06:14 | |
That's right, he writes this profound defence of religious toleration. | 0:06:14 | 0:06:18 | |
Locke might have been doing that for political reasons | 0:06:18 | 0:06:21 | |
but the impact was to launch the first sustained | 0:06:21 | 0:06:24 | |
campaign for religious freedom from inside the Church of England. | 0:06:24 | 0:06:28 | |
Let's see if we can go and find his grave which is in the churchyard. | 0:06:28 | 0:06:31 | |
I think, if I am right... Yep, there he is. | 0:06:33 | 0:06:39 | |
There we go. | 0:06:39 | 0:06:41 | |
The plaque here was actually put together by the American | 0:06:41 | 0:06:45 | |
and British Commonwealth Association. | 0:06:45 | 0:06:47 | |
So clearly, they understand the importance that he | 0:06:47 | 0:06:50 | |
has in the American political system, | 0:06:50 | 0:06:53 | |
but what relevance has John Locke got to us today? | 0:06:53 | 0:06:56 | |
I think he is hugely relevant today. | 0:06:56 | 0:06:57 | |
His defence of toleration, which was aimed at religion but set out broad | 0:06:57 | 0:07:03 | |
principles which matter so much with the far right sweeping Europe. | 0:07:03 | 0:07:08 | |
But there is something more than that, Giles, | 0:07:08 | 0:07:10 | |
that I think he will really be remembered for. | 0:07:10 | 0:07:12 | |
He set out the foundation of Western democracy, | 0:07:12 | 0:07:14 | |
this idea that government only derives its legitimacy | 0:07:14 | 0:07:18 | |
from the will of the people. | 0:07:18 | 0:07:20 | |
With trust in politicians at an all-time low and people really | 0:07:20 | 0:07:23 | |
dissatisfied with politics as a whole, | 0:07:23 | 0:07:26 | |
we could do so much worse than to revisit | 0:07:26 | 0:07:28 | |
the writings of a man from the 17th century to find answers | 0:07:28 | 0:07:32 | |
to some of the really challenging problems that we face today. | 0:07:32 | 0:07:36 | |
50-odd years after Locke died, Edmund Burke arrived in London. | 0:07:45 | 0:07:52 | |
It's fair to say the 18th-century political philosopher | 0:08:03 | 0:08:06 | |
Edmund Burke, who lived in this street, wouldn't recognise it today. | 0:08:06 | 0:08:09 | |
It is in the heart of London's Chinatown. | 0:08:09 | 0:08:12 | |
But he would recognise the British political system as it is today | 0:08:12 | 0:08:16 | |
because, according to a Conservative MP and his biographer, | 0:08:16 | 0:08:20 | |
he is the man who shaped it. | 0:08:20 | 0:08:22 | |
Burke didn't start out in politics | 0:08:25 | 0:08:26 | |
but studied law at the Middle Temple, mainly to please his father. | 0:08:26 | 0:08:30 | |
Jesse, how are you? Good to see you. | 0:08:32 | 0:08:34 | |
So we are here in this magnificent Middle Temple Hall, which is | 0:08:34 | 0:08:39 | |
where Burke lands and arrives in London studying law. | 0:08:39 | 0:08:42 | |
Why do you like Burke? | 0:08:42 | 0:08:44 | |
I love Burke because he is a wonderful writer, | 0:08:44 | 0:08:46 | |
he is an extraordinary political thinker | 0:08:46 | 0:08:49 | |
and he is a terrific campaigner against social injustice. | 0:08:49 | 0:08:52 | |
In short, he kind of writes the textbook | 0:08:52 | 0:08:54 | |
for what a really good MP should be. | 0:08:54 | 0:08:56 | |
He is also, of course, the first Conservative, if you like. | 0:08:56 | 0:08:58 | |
Yes, he is. | 0:08:58 | 0:08:59 | |
He is the first man who really moulds Conservatism into a coherent | 0:08:59 | 0:09:03 | |
-body of thought. -He studies here, he studies law, like lots of MPs. | 0:09:03 | 0:09:07 | |
But he doesn't really like it. | 0:09:07 | 0:09:09 | |
No, he loves the law but he is not keen at all on the Middle Temple. | 0:09:09 | 0:09:13 | |
He seems to have found it a very narrow, dry education. | 0:09:13 | 0:09:16 | |
He has got a lovely simile here where he says, | 0:09:16 | 0:09:18 | |
"He that lives in a college, after his mind is sufficiently stocked | 0:09:18 | 0:09:21 | |
"with learning, is like a man, who having built, | 0:09:21 | 0:09:24 | |
"rigged and victualled a ship, should lock her up in a dry dock." | 0:09:24 | 0:09:27 | |
I think he felt locked up in a dry dock himself | 0:09:27 | 0:09:30 | |
while he was in the Middle Temple. | 0:09:30 | 0:09:31 | |
He is very keen to get out into London | 0:09:31 | 0:09:34 | |
and explore an expanding London, but he finds some important friends. | 0:09:34 | 0:09:37 | |
Yes, London is going through a phenomenal artistic, | 0:09:37 | 0:09:40 | |
cultural and indeed sexual revolution. | 0:09:40 | 0:09:41 | |
He is very keen to get out and explore. | 0:09:41 | 0:09:43 | |
-Why don't we go and see one of the houses? -Excellent idea. | 0:09:43 | 0:09:47 | |
Ah, so Dr Johnson's Withdrawing Room. | 0:09:56 | 0:09:59 | |
What has Johnson got to do with Burke? | 0:09:59 | 0:10:02 | |
Johnson is Burke's ticket to the centre of literary London | 0:10:02 | 0:10:06 | |
and it is an amazing moment where Britain is kind of exploding | 0:10:06 | 0:10:09 | |
with talent and thought. | 0:10:09 | 0:10:10 | |
You've got Adam Smith revolutionising economics, | 0:10:10 | 0:10:13 | |
you've got David Hume in philosophy, | 0:10:13 | 0:10:14 | |
you've got Johnson himself in every branch of literature | 0:10:14 | 0:10:18 | |
and then Burke is determined to leave his own imprint on politics. | 0:10:18 | 0:10:21 | |
So what does he come up with? | 0:10:21 | 0:10:23 | |
He comes up with the first theory of representative government | 0:10:23 | 0:10:26 | |
and of party politics and of the duties of an MP. | 0:10:26 | 0:10:29 | |
What is extraordinary is he doesn't just talk about it, | 0:10:29 | 0:10:32 | |
he really puts it into practice himself. | 0:10:32 | 0:10:34 | |
There is a great moment where he says to his constituents, | 0:10:34 | 0:10:36 | |
"I am not going to kiss your boots, | 0:10:36 | 0:10:38 | |
"what really matters is that I act on your behalf according | 0:10:38 | 0:10:43 | |
"to my best judgment and not simply on your instructions." And that | 0:10:43 | 0:10:46 | |
has become the kind of great doctrine of the way an MP thinks today. | 0:10:46 | 0:10:49 | |
But doctrines fall when compromised | 0:10:49 | 0:10:52 | |
and Burke treats two different revolutions in two different ways. | 0:10:52 | 0:10:55 | |
At the time, Burke was horribly criticised by people who felt | 0:10:55 | 0:11:00 | |
very let down by him | 0:11:00 | 0:11:03 | |
because he had a reputation of being a reformer, | 0:11:03 | 0:11:06 | |
as being progressive and his reaction to the French Revolution | 0:11:06 | 0:11:11 | |
was simply reactionary. Very, very extreme. | 0:11:11 | 0:11:15 | |
He went from one extreme to the other and people were shocked. | 0:11:15 | 0:11:18 | |
We have come to Brooks's Club, just in the heart of St James's. | 0:11:18 | 0:11:23 | |
Burke becomes a member here, he is very pleased about that. | 0:11:23 | 0:11:25 | |
But I have a confusion. | 0:11:25 | 0:11:27 | |
Burke is in favour of the American Revolution | 0:11:27 | 0:11:30 | |
but not in favour of the French Revolution. | 0:11:30 | 0:11:32 | |
Burke becomes a member of Brooks's in 1782, he is | 0:11:32 | 0:11:34 | |
an Irishman from the wrong side of the tracks so he's absolutely | 0:11:34 | 0:11:37 | |
thrilled by that and by the social acceptance that it means to him. | 0:11:37 | 0:11:41 | |
Now, what is so fascinating about it is that Brooks's is the home | 0:11:41 | 0:11:45 | |
of the reformers, the Whigs. | 0:11:45 | 0:11:48 | |
Burke really believes in reform and not revolution | 0:11:48 | 0:11:50 | |
and the reason why he supported the American colonists is | 0:11:50 | 0:11:53 | |
because he thinks their way of life needs to be | 0:11:53 | 0:11:55 | |
preserved against Crown imperial power. | 0:11:55 | 0:11:59 | |
The reason he is against the French Revolution is | 0:11:59 | 0:12:01 | |
because he thinks society is being overturned by a violent upheaval | 0:12:01 | 0:12:04 | |
and that is what he opposes so strongly. | 0:12:04 | 0:12:06 | |
Reform is important because we don't have a revolution. | 0:12:06 | 0:12:09 | |
No, in Britain we don't have a revolution. | 0:12:09 | 0:12:11 | |
We come close to one in the 1810s and '20s but we never have it. | 0:12:11 | 0:12:14 | |
We have the Great Reform Act in 1832 and then the Second Reform Act | 0:12:14 | 0:12:18 | |
in 1867. | 0:12:18 | 0:12:20 | |
Those are the two great steps towards modern parliamentary democracy. | 0:12:20 | 0:12:25 | |
Speaking of that, let's go to the heart of modern parliamentary democracy | 0:12:25 | 0:12:28 | |
and find out what his relevance is today. | 0:12:28 | 0:12:30 | |
We started in a magnificent hall. | 0:12:38 | 0:12:40 | |
We are ending in one - this is Westminster Great Hall. | 0:12:40 | 0:12:43 | |
Why have you brought us here, why Burke? | 0:12:43 | 0:12:46 | |
Well, it is a very important place for Burke | 0:12:46 | 0:12:48 | |
because it is in this building that Burke drags back the Governor General | 0:12:48 | 0:12:52 | |
of India, Warren Hastings, in the mid-1780s. | 0:12:52 | 0:12:54 | |
They have been filling their boots in the East India Company | 0:12:54 | 0:12:57 | |
and he is determined to put them on trial for public accountability. | 0:12:57 | 0:13:01 | |
What relevance does Burke have to what happens in the chamber today? | 0:13:01 | 0:13:04 | |
It is really Burke who is driving the line between a state intervention | 0:13:04 | 0:13:08 | |
we can't afford and cutting markets loose in a way that damages society. | 0:13:08 | 0:13:12 | |
So it is through Burke we understand social renewal. | 0:13:12 | 0:13:15 | |
Without him, we really can't understand modern politics at all. | 0:13:15 | 0:13:19 | |
If you have Burke then you really also have to have Thomas Paine. | 0:13:25 | 0:13:29 | |
You know, there can't be that many political philosophers that | 0:13:41 | 0:13:45 | |
end up with a beer named after them. | 0:13:45 | 0:13:47 | |
But they like Tom Paine here in Lewes, | 0:13:47 | 0:13:49 | |
largely because he lived here, alongside New York and Paris. | 0:13:49 | 0:13:53 | |
But the local MP likes him, not just because he was a resident, | 0:13:53 | 0:13:57 | |
but because Paine's heady mix of reason, | 0:13:57 | 0:14:00 | |
rights and justice is very much to his political taste. | 0:14:00 | 0:14:04 | |
Paine was sent to Lewes as a customs and excise man | 0:14:05 | 0:14:09 | |
so it seems apt to meet outside the house he made his own | 0:14:09 | 0:14:12 | |
for six years, whilst Norman Baker explains Paine's appeal. | 0:14:12 | 0:14:17 | |
I admire Thomas Paine tremendously. He stood for what he believed in, | 0:14:17 | 0:14:20 | |
he wasn't prepared to bend with the prevailing wind. | 0:14:20 | 0:14:22 | |
He stood for rights, for justice. | 0:14:22 | 0:14:24 | |
As he put it himself, simple facts, plain arguments and common sense. | 0:14:24 | 0:14:27 | |
He was a citizen of the world, an absolutely inspirational concept | 0:14:27 | 0:14:30 | |
for people who want to be free of nation states. | 0:14:30 | 0:14:34 | |
His theory is a theory of rights | 0:14:34 | 0:14:37 | |
and the theory of rights that he bequeathed to us is basically | 0:14:37 | 0:14:40 | |
the one that we now have in our human rights institutions. | 0:14:40 | 0:14:44 | |
Lewes may look chocolate-box pretty | 0:14:44 | 0:14:48 | |
but it's always had a character that made town and man a perfect match. | 0:14:48 | 0:14:51 | |
Lewes has always been rather a bolshie place, | 0:14:51 | 0:14:54 | |
which I rather like about it. | 0:14:54 | 0:14:56 | |
It has always been prepared to challenge the establishment. | 0:14:56 | 0:14:58 | |
Go back to the Battle of Lewes in 1264, which led to the first time | 0:14:58 | 0:15:02 | |
the power of the King was checked and the first parliament established. | 0:15:02 | 0:15:05 | |
You've got bonfire celebrations here in Lewes. | 0:15:05 | 0:15:07 | |
Tom Paine suited Lewes and Lewes suited Tom Paine. | 0:15:07 | 0:15:10 | |
With almost Lewesian logic, Thomas Paine, | 0:15:11 | 0:15:14 | |
our great political thinker, thinks politics has a very limited role. | 0:15:14 | 0:15:19 | |
For Paine, politics and government has one role only | 0:15:19 | 0:15:23 | |
and that is to uphold the rights of individuals. | 0:15:23 | 0:15:26 | |
It has got no business anywhere else. | 0:15:26 | 0:15:29 | |
So here we are at this fantastic bowling green, which has been | 0:15:29 | 0:15:33 | |
here for centuries. Unique to Lewes. | 0:15:33 | 0:15:35 | |
And of course, Tom Paine himself was a member, | 0:15:35 | 0:15:37 | |
would have bowled from here. | 0:15:37 | 0:15:38 | |
-Right, OK. On this very spot? -It could even be this very spot. | 0:15:38 | 0:15:42 | |
Go on, then, give it a go. | 0:15:42 | 0:15:43 | |
What do you think Paine is telling us in his works? | 0:15:45 | 0:15:49 | |
I think he is saying that we should base what we do on freethinking, | 0:15:49 | 0:15:53 | |
on reason and respect the individual and not be hemmed in | 0:15:53 | 0:15:57 | |
by the tramlines of established orthodoxy which applied... | 0:15:57 | 0:16:00 | |
That's an excellent shot! | 0:16:00 | 0:16:03 | |
And does he get into trouble for saying all of this? | 0:16:03 | 0:16:06 | |
Yes, because most people would bend and go with the flow. He didn't. | 0:16:06 | 0:16:11 | |
Despite an immense contribution to the French Revolution | 0:16:11 | 0:16:13 | |
and to the US Constitution, he ended up a pauper. | 0:16:13 | 0:16:16 | |
-Just six people at his burial. -Think you won that one. | 0:16:16 | 0:16:19 | |
-I think that is bang on. -It is bang on! | 0:16:21 | 0:16:23 | |
His ideas inspired revolution and a constitution in America and later | 0:16:25 | 0:16:30 | |
in France, where he was so involved he was even elected to the assembly. | 0:16:30 | 0:16:34 | |
But relentless focus on rights does have its drawbacks. | 0:16:34 | 0:16:39 | |
By the rights of man, he definitely meant the rights of MEN. | 0:16:39 | 0:16:42 | |
Women's rights and feminist rights have been a problem | 0:16:42 | 0:16:46 | |
theoretically and politically ever since. | 0:16:46 | 0:16:49 | |
There is also just a more general problem with | 0:16:49 | 0:16:52 | |
the idea of rights which is that it treats us as individuals, | 0:16:52 | 0:16:56 | |
it can be seen to put us into competition with one another, | 0:16:56 | 0:16:59 | |
it can be seen to lead to a litigious society, and Paine is | 0:16:59 | 0:17:04 | |
accused of having ignored community, the relationships between us. | 0:17:04 | 0:17:11 | |
But in the town pub where Paine drank and debated, there is | 0:17:13 | 0:17:16 | |
an argument that his thinking still resonates today. | 0:17:16 | 0:17:19 | |
Actually, it is of huge relevance because he was very modern | 0:17:19 | 0:17:22 | |
for his time, which perhaps was an oddity then. | 0:17:22 | 0:17:24 | |
But what he is talking about is very relevant today. | 0:17:24 | 0:17:27 | |
He didn't like governments, he called them a necessary evil at best, | 0:17:27 | 0:17:30 | |
intolerable at worst. | 0:17:30 | 0:17:31 | |
He wanted to make sure the balance between the state | 0:17:31 | 0:17:33 | |
and individual was framed towards the individual, which is a very | 0:17:33 | 0:17:36 | |
modern way of looking at things. | 0:17:36 | 0:17:38 | |
He was very suspicious of unelected bodies, the House of Lords, | 0:17:38 | 0:17:41 | |
the monarchy. | 0:17:41 | 0:17:42 | |
We're still wrestling with the House of Lords now, aren't we? | 0:17:42 | 0:17:45 | |
-Here's to Tom Paine. -Cheers. | 0:17:45 | 0:17:46 | |
From Paine's Rights Of Man, | 0:17:51 | 0:17:52 | |
we turn to Mary Wollstonecraft's rights of women. | 0:17:52 | 0:17:56 | |
It is unusual, isn't it? | 0:18:02 | 0:18:03 | |
A very modern, daubed-on-a-wall style portrait | 0:18:03 | 0:18:07 | |
of an 18th-century philosopher. | 0:18:07 | 0:18:09 | |
But this is Mary Wollstonecraft, a campaigner for women's rights, | 0:18:09 | 0:18:14 | |
equality and education, who was well ahead of her time. | 0:18:14 | 0:18:17 | |
I am here in London to meet an MP who was a fan of hers long before | 0:18:17 | 0:18:22 | |
her party made her a spokesperson on just those kinds of issues. | 0:18:22 | 0:18:26 | |
For someone who questioned | 0:18:29 | 0:18:31 | |
so much about the norms of the society they lived in, it is odd | 0:18:31 | 0:18:34 | |
we should start her story in a church that she regularly attended. | 0:18:34 | 0:18:39 | |
So, Gloria, here we are in the pew she sat in, in the church she | 0:18:39 | 0:18:43 | |
worshipped in, that boasts itself it is the birthplace of feminism. | 0:18:43 | 0:18:47 | |
I guess it is a bit of a no-brainer, | 0:18:47 | 0:18:49 | |
but why do you like Mary Wollstonecraft? | 0:18:49 | 0:18:52 | |
I remember first reading about Mary Wollstonecraft | 0:18:52 | 0:18:55 | |
when I was an undergraduate at university. | 0:18:55 | 0:18:57 | |
She was the first feminist, the first person to say, | 0:18:57 | 0:19:01 | |
"Actually, no, women are not inferior to men." | 0:19:01 | 0:19:04 | |
And remember, she was saying this at a time, in a century, | 0:19:04 | 0:19:08 | |
where political thinking, political writing, philosophy, | 0:19:08 | 0:19:11 | |
totally dominated by men. | 0:19:11 | 0:19:13 | |
She was a pioneer in a man's world. | 0:19:13 | 0:19:16 | |
You know, I work in politics | 0:19:16 | 0:19:17 | |
so I know about what it is like to speak out in a man's world. | 0:19:17 | 0:19:21 | |
Thank you, Mary Wollstonecraft, you started us off. | 0:19:21 | 0:19:24 | |
She is a very important philosopher of education | 0:19:24 | 0:19:28 | |
and if we think of the field that we now know as cultural studies, | 0:19:28 | 0:19:33 | |
opening up that question of the relationship between culture, | 0:19:33 | 0:19:37 | |
society and state, it is all there in her book. | 0:19:37 | 0:19:40 | |
Gloria, I brought you to London's oldest brick terrace | 0:19:40 | 0:19:43 | |
but there is a reason. | 0:19:43 | 0:19:44 | |
At the time Mary Wollstonecraft is living in Newington Green, | 0:19:44 | 0:19:48 | |
this is the home of the minister of the church where we were at, | 0:19:48 | 0:19:51 | |
Richard Price. | 0:19:51 | 0:19:52 | |
But he also hosts loads of | 0:19:52 | 0:19:53 | |
great Enlightenment thinkers at this house. | 0:19:53 | 0:19:56 | |
Of course, Mary Wollstonecraft writes her seminal work, | 0:19:56 | 0:19:59 | |
the Vindication Of The Rights Of Woman, | 0:19:59 | 0:20:01 | |
just a year after Thomas Paine has written his Rights Of Man. | 0:20:01 | 0:20:05 | |
And he was talking about the rights of men. | 0:20:05 | 0:20:08 | |
As you say, this was the Enlightenment. | 0:20:08 | 0:20:11 | |
An age where thinkers were turning their back on religion, | 0:20:11 | 0:20:15 | |
tradition, folklore and saying, | 0:20:15 | 0:20:17 | |
"Actually, where it's at is science, it's reason, it's logic." | 0:20:17 | 0:20:21 | |
Mary Wollstonecraft's point was that, if reason is where it's at, | 0:20:21 | 0:20:26 | |
how can women be confined to their traditional roles? | 0:20:26 | 0:20:28 | |
They should be able to use their talents in the same way as men. | 0:20:28 | 0:20:32 | |
However, they're not, because they're not educated, and she said, | 0:20:32 | 0:20:36 | |
"I want them to be taught to think." | 0:20:36 | 0:20:39 | |
On that, she practised what she preached. | 0:20:39 | 0:20:42 | |
It was just around here that she set up a girls' school. | 0:20:45 | 0:20:51 | |
There is a plaque just over there which commemorates it. | 0:20:51 | 0:20:55 | |
It was during her time at the school where she writes her first book. | 0:20:55 | 0:21:00 | |
Ah, yes, Thoughts On The Education Of Daughters. | 0:21:00 | 0:21:02 | |
Yes, which peculiarly was a kind of guide to female manners. | 0:21:02 | 0:21:07 | |
Nonetheless, she earned £10, she was very pleased about this. | 0:21:07 | 0:21:11 | |
In fact, in letters which have been published subsequently, | 0:21:11 | 0:21:14 | |
there is a letter to her sister which she wrote a year after, | 0:21:14 | 0:21:17 | |
saying, "I hope you have not forgot I am an author." | 0:21:17 | 0:21:21 | |
Whatever Mary thought of herself, | 0:21:21 | 0:21:23 | |
what others have thought of her has changed over time. | 0:21:23 | 0:21:27 | |
She was vilified as a feminist. | 0:21:27 | 0:21:30 | |
She was then sainted as a figure of the radical Romantic movement. | 0:21:30 | 0:21:37 | |
She was understood to be the founder of liberal feminism with her | 0:21:37 | 0:21:41 | |
emphasis on rights. | 0:21:41 | 0:21:43 | |
I now think we are coming to a point where scholars and historians | 0:21:43 | 0:21:49 | |
are able to get to grips with the complexity of her work. | 0:21:49 | 0:21:52 | |
Gloria, this is the memorial to Mary Wollstonecraft. | 0:21:52 | 0:21:56 | |
She is not actually buried here. | 0:21:56 | 0:21:57 | |
She dies tragically young, 38, | 0:21:57 | 0:21:59 | |
11 days after giving birth to Mary Shelley, the author of Frankenstein. | 0:21:59 | 0:22:04 | |
But what seems to be really sad about her is her reputation | 0:22:04 | 0:22:07 | |
gets buried with her. | 0:22:07 | 0:22:08 | |
Her reputation was trashed as some kind of immoral fanatic. | 0:22:08 | 0:22:12 | |
That is because of the decisions she made in her personal life. | 0:22:12 | 0:22:15 | |
She had an affair with a married man and she knew he was married. | 0:22:15 | 0:22:18 | |
She had a child out of wedlock, which was big news in those days. | 0:22:18 | 0:22:23 | |
Those things were kind of used by some, many in fact, | 0:22:23 | 0:22:26 | |
as a stick to beat her with. | 0:22:26 | 0:22:28 | |
That attitude seems to last for almost a century. | 0:22:28 | 0:22:31 | |
It is relatively recently that academics have gone back | 0:22:31 | 0:22:33 | |
and said, "Hang on, let's just go and look at what she was saying." | 0:22:33 | 0:22:36 | |
The issues in her personal life, which she wrote about too, | 0:22:36 | 0:22:39 | |
are still the challenges that we talk about as women today - | 0:22:39 | 0:22:42 | |
earning a living, having a career, falling in love, raising children. | 0:22:42 | 0:22:48 | |
Still the very same challenges we face today. | 0:22:48 | 0:22:50 | |
And that makes her pretty special. | 0:22:50 | 0:22:52 | |
She knew she was special, she knew she was exceptional. | 0:22:52 | 0:22:55 | |
In fact, she once said, "I was not born to walk in the beaten track." | 0:22:55 | 0:22:59 | |
She wasn't short on self-confidence. | 0:22:59 | 0:23:01 | |
That's very true! | 0:23:01 | 0:23:03 | |
So far our thinkers have been pre-19th century, | 0:23:06 | 0:23:10 | |
but not so JS Mill. | 0:23:10 | 0:23:12 | |
One of the biggest political debates of our time is | 0:23:20 | 0:23:23 | |
freedom of speech, what are we at liberty to say and think? | 0:23:23 | 0:23:28 | |
In the context of that debate, | 0:23:28 | 0:23:29 | |
I have come to Kensington Square to talk to a commentator | 0:23:29 | 0:23:33 | |
and journalist about why he thinks now is the right time to | 0:23:33 | 0:23:37 | |
visit the works and thoughts of the philosopher who lived here, JS Mill. | 0:23:37 | 0:23:42 | |
-Morning, Toby. -Good morning. -Foul morning, but this is Mill's house. | 0:23:45 | 0:23:50 | |
Why do you like Mill so much? | 0:23:50 | 0:23:51 | |
JS Mill was the first political philosopher I read, | 0:23:51 | 0:23:54 | |
aged 17, as part of preparing for my Oxford interview. | 0:23:54 | 0:23:59 | |
I was a punk anarchist at the time and Mill very clearly articulates | 0:23:59 | 0:24:04 | |
these principles which circumscribe the limits of state action. | 0:24:04 | 0:24:10 | |
As a teenage anarchist, I found that really appealing. | 0:24:10 | 0:24:13 | |
That's you as a teenager being educated, but of course | 0:24:13 | 0:24:16 | |
Mill's education is very important as well. | 0:24:16 | 0:24:19 | |
Yes, Mill had a very unusual education. He was taught Greek | 0:24:19 | 0:24:24 | |
at the age of three, was reading Plato in the original aged 10. | 0:24:24 | 0:24:28 | |
His father, who home-schooled him, James Mill, | 0:24:28 | 0:24:31 | |
was a disciple of Jeremy Bentham, the founder of utilitarianism. | 0:24:31 | 0:24:36 | |
James Mill also co-founded University College London. | 0:24:36 | 0:24:40 | |
Mill completed his education by attending lectures | 0:24:40 | 0:24:43 | |
as a teenager at UCL. | 0:24:43 | 0:24:45 | |
At least that's inside, so let's go there now. | 0:24:45 | 0:24:48 | |
JS Mill's theory of freedom is cogent and powerful and readable. | 0:24:50 | 0:24:56 | |
He was courageous, | 0:24:56 | 0:24:58 | |
he stood up for the rights of women in a hostile environment. | 0:24:58 | 0:25:02 | |
He changed himself, getting over an unhappy childhood. | 0:25:02 | 0:25:08 | |
And here's why he's really important today, | 0:25:08 | 0:25:11 | |
he did that by educating himself, or re-educating himself. | 0:25:11 | 0:25:16 | |
For him, education is absolutely central to life. | 0:25:16 | 0:25:21 | |
Toby, you mentioned Jeremy Bentham, and there he is, that really is him. | 0:25:22 | 0:25:26 | |
His skeleton, at least. | 0:25:26 | 0:25:27 | |
They had to remove his head because it was a bit gruesome, | 0:25:27 | 0:25:29 | |
and put the waxwork on. But he is the founder of utilitarianism. | 0:25:29 | 0:25:34 | |
Mill's father is a disciple of his but JS Mill has | 0:25:34 | 0:25:37 | |
a sort of crisis about it. Tell me what happens. | 0:25:37 | 0:25:39 | |
At the age of 20, Mill had what he described as a nervous breakdown. | 0:25:39 | 0:25:44 | |
He'd had this difficult experience | 0:25:44 | 0:25:46 | |
in his childhood of being brought up in a household in which | 0:25:46 | 0:25:49 | |
his father and all his father's intellectual companions were | 0:25:49 | 0:25:52 | |
completely beholden to this man. | 0:25:52 | 0:25:54 | |
I think one of the reasons Mill devoted his life to resisting | 0:25:54 | 0:25:59 | |
intellectual oppression in all its forms was because of | 0:25:59 | 0:26:03 | |
the intellectually oppressive atmosphere in his childhood home. | 0:26:03 | 0:26:06 | |
So that of course is Bentham, | 0:26:06 | 0:26:08 | |
let's go and have a look at JS Mill himself. | 0:26:08 | 0:26:11 | |
This is Temple Gardens, along the Embankment. | 0:26:15 | 0:26:19 | |
It has to be said, you have to have a good look around. | 0:26:19 | 0:26:22 | |
There are loads of statues, it takes some finding. | 0:26:22 | 0:26:25 | |
But there he is, JS Mill. | 0:26:27 | 0:26:29 | |
They have put up a statue to him, but what is his great claim to fame? | 0:26:29 | 0:26:33 | |
Well, he wrote a number of celebrated essays on subjects | 0:26:33 | 0:26:37 | |
like utilitarianism and representative democracy. | 0:26:37 | 0:26:40 | |
He was an MP. He was the first MP, I think, to call for votes for women. | 0:26:40 | 0:26:45 | |
But his great claim to fame is his essay entitled On Liberty, | 0:26:45 | 0:26:50 | |
in which he articulates what has become known as the harm principle, | 0:26:50 | 0:26:53 | |
which has become one of the touchstones of libertarianism. | 0:26:53 | 0:26:58 | |
The principle is that the only justification for restraining | 0:26:58 | 0:27:03 | |
an individual, for the state interfering in an individual's life | 0:27:03 | 0:27:07 | |
and preventing him from doing something against his will, | 0:27:07 | 0:27:10 | |
is to prevent harm to others. | 0:27:10 | 0:27:12 | |
Over his own mind and body, the individual should be sovereign. | 0:27:12 | 0:27:17 | |
Mill wasn't just a philosopher but also an MP, | 0:27:18 | 0:27:21 | |
though he wasn't as radical a politician as he was a thinker. | 0:27:21 | 0:27:24 | |
For Mill, politics is just as it is. | 0:27:25 | 0:27:29 | |
He accepts the politics of his time, which is striking in someone | 0:27:29 | 0:27:34 | |
who is so unconventional | 0:27:34 | 0:27:35 | |
and who refuses to be hidebound by the values of his day. | 0:27:35 | 0:27:39 | |
So, Toby, he is a Victorian political thinker. | 0:27:39 | 0:27:42 | |
Does he have any relevance to us today? | 0:27:42 | 0:27:45 | |
One of the points that Mill made most forcefully is that democracy | 0:27:45 | 0:27:50 | |
and liberty don't always go hand in hand. | 0:27:50 | 0:27:52 | |
Indeed, they are often in conflict. | 0:27:52 | 0:27:55 | |
There ought to be certain carefully defined spheres | 0:27:55 | 0:27:59 | |
into which the state shouldn't be able to intrude. | 0:27:59 | 0:28:04 | |
And part of that sphere should obviously be free speech. | 0:28:04 | 0:28:07 | |
The harm principle is quite useful when it comes to delineating | 0:28:08 | 0:28:14 | |
the limits of what the state's power should be. | 0:28:14 | 0:28:18 | |
When it comes to, for instance, | 0:28:18 | 0:28:19 | |
whether we should ban Page 3 or prohibit | 0:28:19 | 0:28:22 | |
the expression of misogynistic points of view on Twitter, | 0:28:22 | 0:28:26 | |
we should ask ourselves, will banning | 0:28:26 | 0:28:28 | |
and prohibiting that behaviour cause more harm than allowing it? | 0:28:28 | 0:28:32 | |
I think Mill's answer is that yes, in almost every case it is. | 0:28:32 | 0:28:36 | |
I think it is important to remind Parliament of that, | 0:28:36 | 0:28:39 | |
particularly now. | 0:28:39 | 0:28:41 | |
Speaking of freedom of speech, | 0:28:41 | 0:28:42 | |
I feel free to say, thank God it has stopped raining! | 0:28:42 | 0:28:46 | |
Next time, we will look at those who built on these foundations | 0:28:48 | 0:28:51 | |
to make a modern contribution to our political world. | 0:28:51 | 0:28:55 |