01/11/2017 Politics Scotland

On today's programme -

sexual harassment and

exploitation in politics.

We'll be hearing demands

for action from Holyrood.

Trade unions is required and any

such review should consider the

procedures used to report and record

incidents and the culture of

Parliament more generally, given for

example the running of Parliament is

currently overseen by all male

groups of MSPs.

currently overseen by all

male groups of MSPs.

And in Westminster today,

a direct appeal to Prime

Minister Theresa May.

Three years ago, I brought evidence

to her, in this House, that whips

has used information about sexual

abuse, to demand loyalty from MPs.

On three occasions, I asked her to

act and on three occasion, she did

not.

As the scandal continues to grip

Westminster I will be live in London

speaking to our Scottish MPs.

speaking to our Scottish MPs.

Good afternoon, and a warm autumnal

welcome to the show.

Joining me throughout today's

programme is a former director

of the Scottish Conservative Party

and now PR executive with

Moray, there is something obviously

this sexual harassment affair, is

now spread, it started with Harvey

Weinstein, British Parliament,

Scottish Parliament, no doubt other

businesses, one puzzle is, we were

all supposed to be aware of these

issue for about the past 0 year, is

it that do you think, that no-one is

taking this seriously until now? And

why?

-- 30 years. I think people

have taken it seriously it has been

different in different parts of the

country. The corporate world has got

its act together in this regard and

most business, behave in exceedingly

professional manners and are way set

up for people to complain that are

seen as easy to do and without any

prejudice against them. I think in

institutions like Parliament, for

example, where the reporting lines

are different. You don't have a

hierarchy, researches report direct

to MPs an are employed direct by MPs

rather than being employed by the

Parliamentary estate for example.

There are strange set ups in there.

In that environment...

More than

strange, I mean the specific

allegation that Lisa Nandy is

making, is that the whips, this case

Conservative whips were although it

is not necessarily, it, but they use

in stuff they know who has been

accused of what sexual misdemeanors

and they can say if someone is

thinking of rebel, rebel if you

like, we will leak this.

We have

known for a long time whips have

operated in that way. There was a

programme 195 where one of the whips

described how they went about doing

their work and used nuggets of

information on people to control

them. I would like to think it

doesn't work quite so much much in

that way, in terms of harassment or

illegal behaviour but whips use that

pressure against people. The parties

have to look at, look at themselves

ops that front. I think one of the

more interesting things that is

coming out. The gate has been opened

and people are feeling more free to

tell about what has happened to

them. That can only be a good thing,

one of the things that William Hague

said today that was very true, I

thought, is social media, although

it may, many of us may hate it for

many reasons in terms of it gives

access to anyone to say what they

want. What it is is allowing people

to be more powerful and broadcast

that. The point William Hague was

making, is that is a much more

powerful thing that for example any

procedural or legal changes that are

made.

Sure, but you are saying you

hope, you don't know that the whips

don't use this kind of thing, they

certainly were then, weren't they, I

can't see any obvious reason why

things would have changed?

Think

people's attitudes have changed over

the last 20 year, particularly over

the last five to ten year, I do

believe that is the case, I think it

is less likely for that type of

behaviour to happen in a whip's or

any other type of office.

The

allegation isn't the whips are doing

it, the allegation is they...

Use

the information.

It might be sexual

harassment, it might be the fact

that you have had an affair and you

are married and they say well, all

right, all right mate, if you vote

against us we will tell your husband

or your wife.

Yes, who knows if that

behaviour goes on. I would like to

think it doesn't, but clearly, there

is accusations out there that it is.

Now.

Now.

Scotland's political parties have

endorsed a zero tolerance approach

to sexual harassment

in the Scottish Parliament

and wider society.

It follows a meeting

of party leaders with

Holyrood's Presiding Officer,

Ken McIntosh yesterday.

Earlier, the Deputy First Minister

had told MSPs that men's behaviour

and conduct must change,

if the sexual harassment and abuse

of women is to end.

I would like to explain first of all

why Iam answering this question when

it would normally fall to the

equalities secretary. It is the

conduct and behaviour men that needs

to change if we are the to end the

sexual harassment and abuse of

women, whether that be in their

workplace or social life or home,

therefore, as the most senior male

minister in the Scottish Government,

I wanted to answer this question and

to make sure, that it is up to men

to make these changes, and men must

examine their own behaviour. Sexual

haars wherement or abuse in the

world place or anywhere else is

completely unacceptable and must

stop, just as the underlying

attitudes and inequalities that

perpetuate it must also stop. What

is more, our own institution is not

immune from this issue, and I want

to take this to encourage anyone who

has experienced Parasment to report

it. Yesterday we sought to work I a

cross all party to make Parliament

as a workplace, a place where there

is zero tolerance of such behaviour,

I I therefore welcome the meeting

with party leaders taking place

later today to discuss what more we

can do to tackle these behaviours

and attitudes within this

Parliament. No-one, staff or member

of the Scottish Parliament, woman or

man, should have to ever put up with

haars wherement or abuse, I am sure

this Parliament and all parties are

use nitted round the importance of

making sexual harassment a thing of

the past, and that we will work

together to achieve that.

I thank

him for his reply and welcome the

tone and the stance that has been

taken. Can ask him what further

discussions this will be had across

all of the political parties, at

Holyrood to ensure there are

vigorous mesh yeses in place,

consistent across Scottish politics

to ensure a zero tolerance approach

in relation to such behaviour?

Presiding officer, this is an issue

in which all parties will have a

very close and strong interest and

it is right that across the chamber

we unite to send a strong message

that there is no place in Scottish

politics or this Parliament or in

our constituency office for any form

of harassment or abuse, there has to

be a change of culture, so that it

is not the onus is not on

individuals to be raising complaints

or expressing their concernings but

individuals are not exposed to the

circumstances that may give rise to

those complaint.

Can I ask how the

Government will support women and

men and how do we get organisations

to take sexual haars wherement

seriously including local

authorities?

There must be a

combination between good procedures

that are in place, which enable

individuals to feel confident about

reporting any behaviour about which

they are concerned is, but equally

there must be a relentless approach

taken forward by all of us to make

sure that this behaviour is not

behaviour that take place within our

society.

Unless we understand how difficult

it is for women to come forward with

complaint, for fear they will not be

believed or supported and recognises

this is a cultural problem, we will

never fully resolve this. Does the

Deputy First Minister agree that

nothing short of an int review, but

does he agree a review informed by

women's organisation and trade

unions is required and any such

review should consider the

procedures used to report and record

incidents and the churl of

Parliament given for example the run

of Parliament is currently overseen

by all male groups of MSPs?

I do. I

think it would be a good idea, if in

the world that all of us take

forward in this that, we work

closely with the organisations in

Scotland that have served our

country extremely well, in

supporting women in coming forward

to raise their concern, whether that

is Women's Aid or Rape Crisis

Scotland, or the organisations like

engender close the gap. There is

tremendous range of organisations

who serve our country extremely well

in that respect.

Can I ask if he

agreed one of the most important

things we can achieve in terms of

that long emterse change is ensuring

every child in every school receives

the highest standard of sexual

relationship education, including a

thorough and comprehensive approach

to discussing consent, and bodily

autonomy, appropriate at every age.

Isn't this one of the most important

thing we can do to positively

influence the behaviour an attitudes

of boys and young men, as well as

ensuring that no child grows up

under the expectation that abusive,

harassing or entitled behaviour is a

normal part of life they should put

up with?

I agree with Patrick Harvie

on the issue of the importance of

education around the question of

consent, and most, more importantly,

for there, the whole question of

consent to be respected fully within

our society.

I acknowledge the complex nature of

addressing the problem and

discussion this afternoon, but also

I welcome the cross-party for new

steps to make complaint process

clear and fair, we need to take

steps to make sure those working in

this place, where ever they are

based, no unequivocally they will be

represented and kept safe, but the

deputy First Minister agree that

harassment is worse where there are

big discrepancies of power. MSP

staff have the right to complain or

direct to the ethical Standards

Commissioner, staff have told me

this morning, however, that the root

to ethical standard commissioner is

not clearly set out in the Code of

Conduct, nor the standards

legislation, nor indeed in contracts

of employment, given that contacting

party business managers, one of whom

is a government minister maybe a

daunting prospects for staff, will

the Scottish Government support

taking steps to make sure that MSP

staff can and should approach the

ethical Standards Commissioners

directly where appropriate and

necessary?

I think certainly in the

work the permanent secretary will be

taking forward on behalf of the

Scottish Government, we will look to

Lesley Evans to ensure that the

steps and the approaches that we

have in place, properly take account

of the sentiments that Mr McArthur

has raised today.

Let us go over

live to the Garden Lobby.

Our line-up of MSPs today includes

Maree Todd from the SNP,

Rachael Hamilton from

the Conservatives,

Rhoda Grant from Labour

and John Finnie from the Greens.

I wonderful, Moray Macdonald may

have put his fingers on something a

few minutes ago when he said part of

the problem when it comes to staff

working for members of particle and

the Scottish Parliament is they are

employed directly by the MPs an MSPs

they work for so you are in an

invidious position, if you, your

boss does something inappropriate

and you are an employee of that

boss, then understandably you, you

are either prepared to accept you

will lose your job or you won't do

anything?

I don't think that is

case, if there was a assistance

available to MSP staff they could

then seek early intervention if they

were uncomfortable of behaviours

that could lead to a resolution of

that. That would work, we have to

get away from point where women feel

their job or their career is at

stake, if they complaint, that is

what has brought silence for so long

and now there is a chance to change

this.

The point is, the point is

this is a stwruc churl problem of

the way staff are employed by MP,

everyone thinks that women should be

in a position where they can

complain, it is one thing to do that

if you work for a large company and

there is an HR department. If you

are a reSerber -- researches

employed by an MP or MSP that is a

different situation.

It is a

different situation, but the

Parliament and the Parliament in

Scot where my knowledge comes from

does supply services for MSP staff

and gives them assistance where that

is required so I think it wouldn't

be a huge step for them to advise

them in this matter and give them

the help and support they need to

deal with those situation, because

if we leaf it to the member, the

member of staff going to the member,

that is not going to work, if that

member is already abusing their

position.

Rachel Hamilton, what in

your view are we dealing with here,

the impression one would have got

over the past few days is that the

Scottish Parliament is rife with

sexual harassment, if not sexual

assault. Is that the case, or are we

talking about a few isolated

incidents?

Well, I mean we take this

issue of sexual haars wherement very

seriously and so far, there seems to

be only isolated cases of

accusations an these accusations

clearly have to be investigated and

investigated seriously and

professionally. What we have done

within the Scottish Conservative

Party is to actually allocate a

member of staff who is training

specifically for other members of

staff to go to, with any issues they

might have, and your point there

about the MSPs, employing their own

staff, it is like that in a business

situation as well, yes, we don't

have an HR department but we do have

a go to person within the Scottish

Conservative Party.

Maree Todd, your party is already

investigating a couple of incidents.

What's your view of the extent of

this?

I think it's impossible to

know what the extent of this is.

What is possible to see very clearly

is that there is strong leadership

on this issue within Parliament, and

with all the parties across the

board within Scottish parliament. My

own party has put in place some

internal procedures so members of

the party can seek help from

somebody from outside the party

should they have something to

report. Or a concern to raise. The

parliament is also doing something

similar, so there is somebody

independent of the MSPs, so that

situation of having to go to your

boss about a problem with that boss

should not arise in future. This is

something everybody is taken very

seriously.

The trouble is, please

don't take this question personally,

it's not your responsibility, but

everyone has been taking this very

seriously in British society for 30

years. And yet, because of what

happens in a case in Hollywood, in

America, suddenly all these

allegations are coming out in places

like Holyrood and Westminster. It's

not new, the idea that men, some

men, behave badly, and that needs

clamping down on. If you asked a

politician from any party in the

1980s, they would say, of course,

that's intolerable.

I agree, it's

not new, but the difference is that

it is being handled differently

nowadays. If you had raised a

concern back in 1960s or 70s, or

even the 80s come you might have

been told, that's just the way it

is. That's not the case now, and

everybody takes it very seriously

and is keen to encourage people to

come forward with concerns. And they

will be dealt with.

John Finnie,

what's your take on that? I imagine

that most of the public will think,

the new Scottish parliament was

created in 1999, it was going to be

open and transparent. Surely there

was never a situation in the new

Scottish parliament where this thing

could go on, and people felt that if

they reported it, they would be told

to shut up.

Anyone who reports an

incident needs in the first instance

someone to go to. Your initial

question identified the challenge

here. I am an employer of three

people, and I have a human resource

Department to support me. Their job

is to support me and not my staff so

there is a gap in process there.

This is also a culture,

environmental and gender issue. My

former career in the police service,

you had a situation where a uniform

discipline service there, you still

needed mechanisms whereby people

could come forward and legitimately

make complaints. Long term it is

cultural, as Patrick Harvie in the

clip said, this needs to be

education, sexual education and

needs to be about the issue of

consent. And most of all about

respect.

You are saying there is an

issue to do with the way employment

works. With members of staff of an

MSP. What's the solution to that?

Others have talked about how there

has to be a third-party ombudsman or

third party you can go to if you are

concerned about how you have been

treated. I'm not sure how that gets

round the problem. If I was a young

female member of staff working for

an MSP who I feel has behaved

inappropriately, I might know there

is a third person I can go to, but I

would also feel that if I went to do

that, my career is pretty much over.

And doesn't that sum up the pressure

that young women are under and

shouldn't be under? We need a

culture where young women can come

forward. There has been talk of a

confidential helpline. That could

play a part. Sometime it's not

individual incidents that gets

things done, it's a series that are

disclosed, patterns of behaviour.

Fundamentally this is about respect.

It is gender-based and men are still

continuing to be disrespectful to

women, and that is the fundamental

problem.

Rhoda Grant, do you think

there is a need to pin this town a

little bit? You will have got the

impression of the last few days that

this is rife in both Holyrood and

Westminster. But there are a lot of

allegations going around at the

moment and a lot of broadbrush

statements like sexual harassment is

rife, all over the place and that

type of thing. Some of this needs to

be backed up with specifics.

Is very

difficult to back it up with

specifics because of the nature of

it. Holyrood, Westminster, every

other organisation represents what's

going on in day to day life. We have

inequality in society. We have tried

to deal with that. Statistics out

today show the pay gap, for

instance, is really difficult to

deal with. Until we get equality,

this will go on, and it is a

minority, I stress a menorah to your

bank, abuse their power over women.

-- a minority of men.

There is

another side to this, all sorts of

allegations are being made at the

moment. Dominic Raab, the

Conservative MP, for example. There

is an unsigned document going around

document which names him, accuses

him of sexual harassment. He says he

didn't do it, but the point he is

making is, his career could be

potentially damaged by documents

that have not been signed by anyone.

While we want people to feel free to

come forward, at the same time we

don't just want allegations going

out against named individuals with

nothing to back them up.

Indeed not,

which is why we need it properly

investigated with a goat to

organisation that will do that, to

ensure people have a safe place to

make those allegations. That

anonymous allegations are going out

there tells you that even in this

maelstrom of opinion and allegation,

people still don't feel safe in

calling people out for bad

behaviour. Obviously in there, there

can be malicious allegations. That's

why we need to open it up, make sure

it's properly investigated, and

those responsible are held to

account.

Rachael Hamilton, I'm not

sure I understand when it comes to

the details. Picking up what John

Finnie said, let's say I am a member

of female staff, I'm employed by a

member of the Scottish parliament

and I feel he has behaved

inappropriately towards me. There is

somebody I can report it to, but I'm

thinking, I don't care, that as soon

as it comes out, that I have

reported him, one way or another my

career is over. I'm not sure

anything is being done that gets

around that problem.

I think we need

to have faith in the third-party

support we are offering.

The point I

am making, and I think the point

John Finnie was making is that

nobody is questioning the third

party would be genuine, the point is

that structurally I am still in a

situation where if I am that young

woman, I might think that third

party is genuine, but as soon as

this comes out, and as soon as they

go to him and say allegations have

been made against you, then that's

me finished.

I can imagine if

somebody was being accused after

being insinuated in a sexual

harassment allegation, I am sure

that person would get an inordinate

amount of support. And therefore

feel they wouldn't just have to do

suddenly leave their job or not feel

they can stay within their job.

Rhoda Grant made the point that we

have to look at the investigation

point of view.

I'm sorry, Rachael

Hamilton, that you say, I'm sure

they wouldn't, but what you are

saying wouldn't happen is precisely

what women in Parliament, and we

have a succession of extremely

well-known actresses coming out and

saying that they felt they were in

precisely that position. So why

should young inexperienced members

of the Scottish Parliament staff be

in a different position?

You are

suggesting, I think, that that

individual would be supported to

take the allegation through. They

absolutely would. The Scottish

parliament would get involved.

Perhaps they would be illegal

involvement. It's ridiculous to

suggest that person would feel so

threatened they would have to leave

their job. If they brought an

allegation against somebody such as

an MSP who employed them.

OK, but

married Todd, in that case, if this

is the way the system functions,

it's difficult to know why there can

possibly be a problem in the first

place. Clearly something is not

working here.

I think there is a

difference between what happens in

the law and what happens in culture.

There is legal protection for people

in their jobs, and you can't just be

spuriously sacked because you make

an accusation against your employer,

so anybody coming forward would have

that legal protection. But you are

right, there is a cultural issue for

a young person to speak out against

their employer. There is a cultural

issue for a woman to speak out

against sexual harassment. Women

have a lifetime of cultural

programming to undo when they speak

up about these things.

We are

running out of time. Can I ask all

of you, starting with married Todd,

have you ever been the victim of

anything like this, or have you been

told of people who are?

I think

that's a completely inappropriate

question. We are trying to create an

environment where it's perfectly

possible for women to come forward

and speak about these issues. That's

about as appropriate as me asking

you whether you ever harassed

anyone.

Rachael Hamilton, do you

agree with that? I also ask, have

you been told that this is going on?

I haven't been told. I am a business

person. We have an HR facility

within the business we own. I treat

my staff with respect, and I hope

that if they have any issues

whatsoever with any other members in

the parliament, that they would come

to me and speak to me or go to a

person who is impartial and a

trained individual.

I am trying to

get a sense of... Not how serious,

because it is very serious, but

Rhoda Grant, have you been

experiencing this, or have been told

about it?

We wouldn't be having this

kind of conversation in the media

just now. The ways some of the

conversations surrounding this is

about women, it's not, it's actually

about men's bad behaviour, and men

having to change their attitudes. If

people were aware of that then they

would call them to account. But the

way it happens, people abuse their

power, pick on people who will not

speak out and therefore go under the

radar and perpetrate that kind of

abuse. Now we have the chance to do

something about it.

The reason I'm

asking you this question, I'm not

trying to pry into privacy or

anything, married Todd, I asked the

same thing of Shona Robinson at the

weekend and she was more than happy

to answer it, but part of the

problem with this is that people

have said, I have heard that, rather

than, it's happens to me, or I have

known friends and colleagues who

have suffered this. That's part of

the problem with this, Rhoda Grant.

The trouble is, it goes on

throughout society. If you tell me

it doesn't happen at the BBC, then

that's wrong. But has anybody told

you about it, does anybody come to

you? We have to change the way

society views it. By asking people

to put their head above the parapet,

that's not the way to do that.

Maree

Todd Testa I want to agree with

Rhoda Grant. -- Maree Todd?

Simply

because I haven't experienced sexual

harassment since I came to work it,

that doesn't mean it doesn't go on.

And had you been told by friends and

colleagues that they had, that's the

point?

Clearly there are allegations

within the public domain and we need

to create an environment where

people feel supported to come

forward and talk about those issues

and gain help with them.

John

Finnie, have you heard stories of

this sort of thing going on?

I am

not aware of specific allegations.

If I was aware of them, depending on

the nature of them, I would

certainly encourage the individual

to report certain matters to the

police and support the individual in

gaining support perhaps outwith the

building here. This entirely is a

gender based issue, it's about the

abuse of power. We need to have a

situation where the appreciation

that allegations puts the focus on

the complainer is not the way to

proceed with this. There can be

repeat victimisation, and that can

take the form of inactivity by

persons that are told, or a failure

to address the issue properly. I

think we need a culture first and

foremost where people are prepared

to come forward and they know they

will be supported.

We will have to

leave it there. Thank you all very

much indeed for joining us today.

Moray Macdonald, it looks like your

point about the nature of employment

contracts here, you might have hit

on something.

I think there is

something in that. I felt the four

of them were floundering a little

bit every time you were asking the

questions, and they kept referring

to that third party. You are right

to some extent, there needs to be an

independent party where staff, MSPs,

or those employed in Parliament can

go to. Most businesses have that. My

business has an alert line you can

call operated by a exterior company

that can do that to make sure you

get your concerns across. But I

think there is a fundamental power

play there. I'm not sure how you fix

it, but it is a problem.

One of the good things is there is a

MSP who a complaint stand up against

them they are probably out op their

ear now, I suspect that a positive

thing. Things will be be dealt with

more quickly but the relationship

between MSPs and staff to me feels

wrong, I am someone who has been

employed in that situation.

I can

understand Moray Macdonald saying I

don't care what happens to me, if it

is not unrebellion, part of the

problem is everyone, all the

politicians are telling us this is a

terribly serious problem which they

are taking terribly seriously, I

don't mean those four know that

these incidents are happening, but

the point is is there is a lot that,

it is just happening, well what is

happening? Happening? I don't know,

or I don't want to answer that. We

are effort will, we don't know

whether this is a serious a problem

as the politicians are saying is or

not?

I don't think we will know

until people come out and, and speak

about what has happened, if not

publicly to the authorities and it

is dealt with. I think the issue we

have, is in the way our Parliament,

our media operate, it is a

environment where people work late

together by nature of the job, they

work closely together. They are in

drinking environment, things happen.

One of the issues is we probably

aren't wear of the worst examples of

the things that are really bad

because they are enden away, people

don't want the talk about them.

Do

you mean if there are serious sexual

assault.

Rape, whatever, we are not

hearing at them. We need to make

sure they are dealt with. What we

hear is tittle-tattle, I'm aware

that MSP is having a relationship

with someone or someone is at a

party, none of those things are

necessarily wrong as long as they

are being done in a consensual way,

but that, I hear, often, about some,

someone is, was seen as a party

snogging someone, that type of thing

and there is nothing wrong with

that, but that is what people tend

to talk an the most. What we need to

focus on is Serbs you cases.

We will

have to move on. That is what is

confusing, listening to how the four

of them answered that last question,

what they were wear of. If you were

a member of the public at home would

you conclude that there is a serious

issue here, which we should be

concerned about as matter of

serious, as a priority, or would you

conclude, well, there may be is an

issue and there may be, maybe they

should set up an inquiry?

There a

serious issue across society, we

need to make sure that women or

anyone who is harassed or sexually

assaulted needs to find a way to

reported where they are protected. I

don't think it matters where, where

that is.

Were you convinced by the

trir arguments there?

I am not

really. The problem is your

politicians in the public eye and

everyone you see is being analysed

through a certain political lens

someone might have. The trouble is

any tittle-tattle stuff will be used

against people in a we that is not

helpful to anyone.

-- a way.

We will be back with you

later P

Now, it's that time in the programme

when we randomly drop in on a bit

of live action from the main chamber

of the Scottish Parliament.

Members on both sides testify house

have been concerned about

allegations of haar rarsment and

mistreatment here in Westminster.

The demands a response and is why

the leader of the house has been

meeting with her counterparts and we

are hopeful all sides can work

together to resolve this. I have

written to all party leader,

inviting them the a meeting next

week so we can discuss an

independent grievance procedure for

all those works in Parliament. We

have a duty to ensure that everyone

coming here to contribute to public

life, is treated with respect.

Mr Speaker, this morning I had

meetings with colleagues in addition

to my duties in this House, I will

have further such meetings.

On the

question of the sex harassment

allegation that the Prime Minister

rightly referred to, to put on the

record I am happy to meet with the

Prime Minister and all party leaders

to discuss this, we immediate better

protections for all this in House,

this House must involve workplace

trade unions in that, but it is also

incumbent on all parties to have

robust procedures in place to

protect and support victim of sexual

abuse and harassment.

Mr Speaker, in

2010, the Labour Government

intervened through HMRC to shut down

an Isle of Man scheme used to import

yachts into the European Union.

And

thus avoid tax. A similar scheme has

been exposed erelating to import of

business jets into the Isle of Man.

So can the Prime Minister assure the

House that HMRC investigates these

new allegations diligently?

He talks

about tax avoidance, I can assure

him where cases are referred to HMRC

in relation to tax avoidance they

take those seriously, do look into

those measures seriously, we have

taken action over the last few year,

since 2010 when we fist came in, and

we have secured almost £160 billion

in additional compliance revenue,

since 2010, through a number of

measures we have taken to ensure

that we clamp-down on tax evasion

and say I do vans.

The reality is

that new research shows that working

single parents could lose an average

of £1350 a year, because of the cuts

to work allowances. Mr Speaker,

Universal Credit is fast becoming

Theresa May's poll tax.

The Prime Minister has a habit of

U-turn, whether she U-turn one more

time and fix the problems with

Universal Credit.

I have underlined

the principle that lies behind it

which believe is a very important

one, and that is why when when he

look at the support that is given to

people, it isn't just about the

support they receive in financial

terms, it is also about the support

they receive to help them to get

into the workplace, to ensure that

they can actually meet the

requirements of getting into the

workplace and when they are in the

workplace they can keep more of the

money they earn. I think that is an

important principle, we will

continue to roll out Universal

Credit. Looking carefully at the

implementation of Universal Credit

as we do so because we doing this in

a careful way over a period of time,

but the important principle is that

Universal Credit is a simpler system

but ensures that people keep more as

they earn more.

I would like to

thank the Prime Minister for

hopering words about the horrific

revelations this week, but can I say

to her, that three years ago, I

brought evidence to her, in this

House, that whips had used

information about sexual abuse to

demand loyalty from MPs. I brought

that information to her in the House

and I warned her at the time that

unless real action was taken, we

risked repeating those injustices

again today. On three occasion, I

asked her to act and on three

occasions, she did not, so can I ask

her, in this of all weeks, for the

fourth time, will she finally take

concrete action to tackle this?

I will of course look back at the

questions that the honourable lady

has said she raised with me in to

House. I assume she raised with me

when I was Home Secretary, we, I

will say to her that I am very

clear, that the Whips office, I hope

this goes for all Whips offices

across the House, should make clear

to people, that where there are any

sexual abuse allegations that could

be of a criminal nature that people

should go to the police, it is not

appropriate for these to be dealt

with by Whips office, those should

Gou to the police, that continues to

be the case, as I sayly look at the

questions she raised with me, but I

am very clear, that we will take

action against those where there are

allegations, that we see, and the

evidence is there, that there has

been misconduct, but, can I just say

to the honourable lady, I hope we

will all send a message from the

House today, that we want people in

this place, to be able to feel

confident to bring forward cases,

and we need to ensure, we need to

ensure that those cases, no, we need

to ensure those cases are dealt

with, in a way that people can have

confidence on both sides, that they

will be properly investigated. That

means, and I want to see a good

process within this Parliament, so

people feel they do not have to go

to a party political process, in

order to have their allegations

cannered.

Is that potentially serious, if Lisa

nan didid raise questions when he

was Home Secretary and Theresa May

didn't do anything about it Ant

couldn't remember being asked

It is

clear she couldn't remember the

questions being asked and she was

Home Secretary for six or seven

years, so I find it strange she

wouldn't remember those questions if

they were put in the way they will

is a nan disays they were, and I

haven't seen the questions since

then, but the point Lisa nan

diraises is an important one. There

is footage going back to 1995 of

whips discussing a whip a former

Tory whip discussing how they

managed members and use nuggets of

information to control them. That

clip specifically, sex abuse was

talked about. That when I saw it, I

was horrified.

That, as a complete

outsider that would be my, we heard

or MSPs talking about how they

wanted a system where there were

third party, people could go to, yet

here we have a Labour MP, saying

several years ago I asked the Home

Secretary, gave some examples and

asked her to do something about it

and nothing happened. A lot of

people will think having third

parties isn't going to do much good.

No, and the trouble is at the end of

the day with this we will be relying

on the behaviour of people whether,

and how a whip behaves is going to

be up to the moral compass of that

person, and what we have to hope is

in society whether it be through

education or training or through...

That we realise how, how to behave

in that type of environment.

All

right. Sorry about that unexpected

bit of music we gave you there. Let

us go back to Westminster with our

political correspondent Andrew kerb.

Back to Westminster

now with our political

correspondent, Andrew Kerr.

This scandal is gripping the houses

of Parliament here, we are not

talking about Brexit, we are

focussing on something different.

One commentator said this is a storm

that is about to break, over at

Westminster, some people have been

saying it could be bigger than the

expenses scandal. I am joined here

on College Green by four members of

Parliament from Scotland. From the

Conservatives we Labour the SNP and

the Scottish Liberal Democrats. Good

afternoon to you. Thank you for

joining me. Let us turn to PMQs and

the announcement that Theresa May at

the begin of the session, just about

this new body that might have power

over the whole of Westminster,

everyone working in the Palace over

there, what more information do you

have on that? How might it work?

It

is important we have an independent

body, this is obviously an issue

that affects cross-party, affecting

everybody from employee,

researchers, and everyone, we need

to have than independent advice and

support there, so and Theresa May

was also very clear she was going to

have a cross-party meeting with all

leaders as well, because I think

this is an issue everybody needs to

work together. Nobody across

Parliament, you know, they all want

to see this resolved or see a way

forward. That is what the Prime

Minister set out to do.

Would the be

a body with teeth do you think?

It

has to be, I think, especially as a

female coming into politics, I want

to ensure we continue to encourage

more females and more young people

into the Parliament, and I don't

want it to get tarnished with a

particular image, so I think it is

really important we take a hard line

on these particular issue,

especially the ones that are very

saddening, a lot of these particular

cases that have come forward with,

we need to address them.

We have

heard allegations about Conservative

minister, which they deny, what is

the mood in the Conservative Party

at the moment, following these

allegations?

I think it is not just

the Conservative Party, we need to

make to that clear, it is a

cross-party issue, I don't believe

that Holyrood is immune to this. As

said before, all parties need to

work together, to ensure we look out

for the staff we employ who work so

hard on our behalf and that a lot of

us couldn't do without.

I want to

stay on this Parliamentary body,

Theresa May denoun -- announced in

the chamber, how do you it there

behave, because of course Labour

facing Sarah serious allegations

too, about covering up an alleged

rape?

I think the first thing is

this is a serious matter for all of

us, I think it is also not just a

serious matter for women, despite

the fact we have an all women panel

here today, I think any environment,

any workplace, whether that is

Parliament or a private sector,

public sector, needs to have a clear

set of guidelines and rules that

people feel safe in the workplace,

and that includes harassment and

bullying, today we are talking about

sexual harassment, but that takes

many different tomorrow forms and we

need to recognise that, as someone

who worked in industry and had to

investigate these kind of issues it

is important we have an openness and

transparent I about the policy we

have, which is why Labour has

updated and published its policy,

think all parties right now, while

whatever the outcomes are here, we

need to be open and transparent

about what we are doing now, so I

would be encouraging all parties to

make clear now what their policies

are so if there are current issue,

that people are feeling concerned is

about now, then they know they have

a recourse, they don't have to wait

for what might happen. Think that is

important. I think it is about speed

of response, it is about sensitivity

of response and it is about making

sure we investigate these

allegations very serious allegation

thoroughly.

With your background in HR and human

resources, companies have procedures

they can follow, but working in this

place where the employer is the MP,

it makes it very difficult and often

people don't want to go to the party

itself to complain because they are

worried about their future career.

It's a very different place with

that element of power.

Harassment in

a organisation is about power. It's

about the culture you create, it's

about education. In organisations

where I work before you would have

regular education sessions. We

assume everybody knows how to act

and behave. These episodes show that

even today people don't,

unfortunately. We need to calibrate

people around what are the relevant

standards of conduct and behaviour,

no matter where you work. In society

we need to understand and respect

there are boundaries and that

educate people so they understand

how to adhere to those in the

workplace.

Jeremy Corbyn said he

would join cross-party talks. Kirsty

Blackman, from the SNP. The SNP have

issues in this area with two

parliamentarians being investigated

for alleged sexual harassment in the

party just now. Looking at this

place, we have talked about how this

new body overseeing this place might

work, how do you think it will work?

I think some of the comments that

have been made already are really

important. One of the issues we have

is not just that this behaviour is

happening, but that the reporting

procedures are not working and

people are not being taken seriously

and concerns are not being

investigated properly. It's really

important that this body being set

up games the confidence of people,

make sure that it properly

investigates and takes issues

forward. -- gains the confidence. We

need to have all the party leaders

in talking, coming together, and

agreeing to go forward on a joint

basis makes a lot of sense and it's

a sensible way to go. But we have

been clear, and all the parties have

been clear, that there is zero

tolerance on this. Anything brought

forward will be investigated

sensitively and properly. We cannot

condone this kind of behaviour.

The

Scottish parliament had the

cross-party meeting yesterday. Why

do you think Westminster waited

until next week?

I'm not sure why,

perhaps it's how business has worked

in the Commons this week. It seems

to me that the Prime Minister is

getting the backing for this planned

to have a third-party body, if you

like. It seems that across the house

people are getting behind that and

saying it's the way forward. One of

the things the SNP has done is send

out something to every member to

say, this is how to report it, and

this is the internal process. Much

like the Labour Party, this is how

you go about reporting things. And

that's to somebody a step removed

from the SNP, so they can be assured

of a level of anonymity, should they

desire it, and a proper

investigation. However the person

who has been harassed, how they want

to take it forward is our paramount.

How do you assess the scale of the

sexual harassment problem at

Westminster, having been here the

last few months?

It's very difficult

because you don't know what people

might not be bringing forward. Its

excellence now that the Prime

Minister has said she wants an

independent body, but it's also

important the party stud abrogate

responsibility and say, there is an

independent body. -- the parties do

not abrogate responsibility. That

would not be good enough. I don't

think it's enough to say that now

there is an independent body they

can wash their hands of it. The

parties need to take responsibility

for people who are their staff,

their volunteers, there MPs and

MSPs. We need to make sure that we

are behaving, and we are looking

after our own people and if they

have a complaint there is a body for

them to go to. But fixing this

problem starts with us, it starts

with the people in Parliament.

When

you talk about looking after our own

people, quite often people just want

to look after the party and the

party interests often come first.

People might put their interests

secondary to the party interests

because here there is that feeling

of power. That is a difficult

relationship, that perhaps you don't

have in other organisations.

As we

are seeing, the relationship of

power is the one that you get in all

sorts of walks of life. You have to

be very careful. It's not just about

sexual harassment, it's bullying,

harassment of all sorts. We have to

get away from the culture of

thinking about the party and think

about the individuals. We have, as

the other parties have, a robust

structure in place. We want people

to report things if they feel they

have been inappropriately treated.

And most importantly, if it is

illegal, if it is a criminal

offence, it goes to the police.

I

want to carry on talking about the

culture of this place. I want to

paint that picture of how it is

different to other organisations.

Lisa Nandy said at Prime Minister's

Questions, she had put points to

Theresa May, about the whips, about

the black books they hold of MPs.

Theresa May seemed at a loss and

could not remember Lisa Nandy asking

that question.

Since it has been

clarified, Lisa Nandy was referring

back to the child-abuse scandal a

few years ago. It was slightly

different, and is not as relevant to

these sexual harassment...

It is

still there, isn't it, that Theresa

May did not address the point

directly and perhaps has done

nothing about the whips and their

alleged black books.

I have actually

seen her response and she did and so

the question. In terms of the black

books, I don't think anybody would

hope any whips office has that

particular process in place. The

Prime Minister made that very clear

in the chamber today.

It's probably

the same for Labour as well, a

powerful party controlling its MPs

through that kind of information. Do

you know if the whips here in that

place still use black books tickle

worse people with that kind of

information?

I can't comment on

that. I have not seen evidence of

that.

You must be to the whips all

the time.

I do, but I come back to

the earlier point about the culture

and environment we want to create.

-- you must speak to the whips all

the time.

The Labour Party to pay

policy out to affiliate members

earlier this year and we try to

mirror what we have seen in other

sectors of industry. We have to

recognise the starting point here is

that we are way behind what is good

practice anywhere else. And we need

to stop looking back and say what

has happened, and now focus and

investigate where things are brought

to our attention and do that in an

appropriate way.

You are the shadow

Scottish secretary, you must know

how the party operates?

I can

certainly talk about the culture and

environment in a Scottish team,

which is a positive one. We conduct

ourselves in that manner. I have not

seen or experienced any of the

situations described here, but that

doesn't mean to say they are not

happening. What we have to do

understand and accept is that if

they are happening, we all have to

ensure a duty of care to ourselves

and staff and we have robust

policies in place to deal with that.

What about the SNP's culture when it

comes to the whips? You have a far

bigger number of people than you had

ten years ago.

I think the whips

using indiscretions to blackmail

people is not a way anybody should

be running anything. Going forward,

certainly it has in the past, Labour

and Tory whips have behaved that

way, but all parties need to be

committing to not doing that. If it

is extramarital sex, that's one

thing, but if it is somebody who is

known for harassing young

researchers, for example, that's a

totally different thing, and it

should be reported and investigated

properly and should never be used as

blackmail material.

What about the

Lib Dem culture? Your party is long

established in there. How does it

operates?

As I said earlier, we have

a robust formula that he came up

with quite recently. We have

reviewed it all. What we want, as

has been said, a duty of care.

And

in terms of the whips and how they

operate?

The way they operate is

probably similar to everyone else.

Like others, I am not aware of a

black book with indiscretions in it.

I have never even heard it mentioned

until today. Possibly because it has

not been an issue. I am not aware of

that, and I would hope the whips in

all the parties would be operating

in a way that is acceptable, and as

you have said, if somebody does

something which is inappropriate,

then they should be spoken to. If

they do something which is

potentially a criminal offence, they

should be reported to the police. I

don't think anyone would want to

compromise on that in any way.

Thank

you to all my guests. Gordon, we

will have to leave it there. Here we

are in 2017 speaking about something

like this. Perhaps many people are

wondering why something like this

hasn't been tackled a long time ago.

STUDIO: Thanks, Andrew. Moray

Macdonald is still with me. The

thing about this is, as Andrew says,

why wasn't this tackled a long time

ago, but the fact is that we are

only just now all talking about this

because of problems that happened to

some producer in Hollywood. That's

what seems bizarre.

It is, and that

kicked off because somebody was

brave enough and was able to come

forward and tackle him. The reality

is that in any situation it's about

power. Harvey Weinstein has power

over a lot of people who want to be

actors, and he could easily destroy

their career. Or in some cases

destroy one of their husband's

careers because she wasn't doing

what he wanted her to do. Power

exists everywhere, it clearly exists

in Parliament. I have seen

relationships of power working here

and in New Zealand Parliament as

well when I worked there. The

reality is that people who have

power have to be the people who know

how to behave responsibly.

People

will ask, will this ever really

change. In the mid-19 90s we would

have been sitting here having this

discussion and we could have talked

to a lot of politicians and they

were all would have said, sexually

inappropriate behaviour in

Parliament or anywhere or any other

business is out of order. We have

policies in place, and our companies

and parliaments... But here we are

20 or 30 years later having the same

conversation. When everyone says it

is now, and this is in no way what

you said with your employment

contracts, if the key thing is power

relationships, does it really make a

difference if we talk about third

parties?

I am not convinced at all

that any procedural or legal changes

or third-party procedures put in

place will make a jot of difference.

They might make it easier for people

to report things, or make it clearer

to report. But they do not change

the fundamentals of how power

relationships work. In politics or

any other business. We need to make

sure that people in power know how

to behave properly.

We could have

gone back 30 years and have the same

conversation and really would have

said it's very important that from

now on everybody knows how to behave

properly. Everybody would say,

that's absolutely right and nothing

happens.

There is nothing you can do

to legislate against there being bad

people. There will be for ever more

bad people. Our job is to make sure

there are as few bad people as

possible and for people to shout

out. The times and people would

stand by idly and not report

somebody who is being harassed,

particularly in the business world,

that time has gone. I think in a

corporate world...

Clearly not in

Hollywood. And if you believe this,

clearly not in Parliament either.

They are behind.

That's all we've got time for today.

My colleague Brian Taylor is back

tomorrow on BBC2 at midday

with First Minister's Questions

and I'll be back at the weekend

with Sunday Politics Scotland.

Until then, cheerio.