08/01/2014 Politics Scotland

Hello and welcome to the first Politics Scotland of 2014. Coming up

on the programme: From a former First Minister, a call for a

temporary truce in the referendum campaign during the Commonwealth

Games. This is too important for Scotland.

It is too important for all the athletes who have been competing

It's the Scottish Government's "meal deal" - we'll look at the plans to

give primaries one to three free school lunches.

And here, as flooding continues, there are growing concerns that more

should be done to help those affected by the deluge.

And welcome to the first edition of the programme. Thinking about the

referendum, the First Minister Jack McConnell has been talking about the

Commonwealth Games. He says that he does not want the people involved in

the Keynes to be distracted or concerned.

These games are important for Scotland and Glasgow. It is an

amazing opportunity to promote the city and the country, and it

happened just before the referendum. I think it is really

important that everyone involved, the organisers and the investors,

the athletes, the singers and others who will take part in the cultural

programme, that they can be confident that everything they do

will not be exploited by one side or the other. I think it will be really

great for Scotland. Both sides would agree that there will be a truce and

then the referendum campaign can take place. How worried are you that

the games could be hijacked by politicians?

I think the danger is that the games become as coal. We know the history

of politics and sport in Scotland. -- political. The games had been

devastated by a political boycott. They did have an impact on

Edinburgh. We don't want anything to overshadow the sporting and the

economic potential of these games for Glasgow and for Scotland. So I

hope that both sides will see the sense in saying that, for that

limited period in 2014, given that we have had a referendum campaign

four years, it will be appropriate to stand aside and the games will

run the show. Do you think that you can get

agreement between both sides to do this?

I would be shocked if anybody at either side of the debate would not

be willing to take this pledge. I really hope that, given the

Commonwealth Games from the inception, when I watched the

campaign to secure the games for Glasgow, and the new City Council

took over, we have run this as a cross-party operation. I hope that

everyone will see sense in making sure that, for the games period

itself, that the games continue. It is too important for Glasgow or for

the athletes who were competing to be overshadowed by politics during

that fortnight in July and August. The former First Minister Lord

McConnell. But Alex Salmond has denied that politics will overshadow

the games. He says that the games have been created for all parties,

and there is no reason to believe that that would not continue. The

Commonwealth Games will be a huge successful Scotland.

It is right that people listen to politics, but the idea that politics

will overshadow the events is not right. The games will continue

through, we will see it on the cross-party basis.

We are now joined by our political commentator Hamish Macdonel. Good

afternoon and welcome to you. Very good to hear what has been said,

very interesting what Lord McConnell has said. Why is he concerned?

I think he is a Labour person who is worried, like a lot of labour, that

you have the SNP in charge and the First Minister in charge, and the

Commonwealth Games are in Glasgow and the First Minister will be

handing out medals and there will be SNP ministers everywhere, and to

Labour worried that this could push the SNP's course. They think that

there could be grandstanding during the games. They say that they should

get in their early. It is wishful thinking.

Do you think it is possible that he is coming to this in a nonpartisan

way? No, I don't. It is nice to see Jack

McConnell back, we do not see him very often, but he is a former

Labour First Minister and he has fought the SNP and nationalism or

his life. He is seeing this from a unionist and Labour perspective. All

he can see is a First Minister who is going to take advantage from a

Scottish Commonwealth Games. Lord McConnell said that he would be

shocked if there was no agreement about this, but hearing from the

current First Minister, he said that what Lord McConnell was suggesting

was nonsensical. Yes, I think it is. If you look at

it from above, there is no way that the debate over Scotland's future

can be stopped. It can't be suspended for the Commonwealth

Games. There is a president with the death of Princess Diana, but that

was an exceptional circumstance. For a sporting event, you cannot stop

the campaign. I do not agree that this will affect the medallists or

the athletes. They will be just competing. With the politicians

outside the stadium is, it does not have to influence what happens in

the stadiums. How much coverage of the referendum

do you think there will be in the Scottish media during the

Commonwealth Games? Do you think that they will not cover the

referendum, whilst they covered the sport?

Yes, I think there is a sense that there will be in the media something

great that is different to cover. But we will only be a couple of

months away from the referendum, and it will be in the papers and on the

television, because the politicians will be out and they will be

campaigning. It will keep on going on, the debate will go on. It'll be

nice to have something else on the papers at that time.

Lord McConnell made an interesting point about sport and politics in

Scotland mixing badly, in 1986 touring the Commonwealth Games, it

was pretty disastrous for those games, because of the boycott, half

the teams did not turn up. Yes, the circumstances were very

different. It was the UK Government and Margaret Thatcher's approach to

South Africa, and many people boycotted the Commonwealth Games,

which led to a major loss of revenue and sponsorship. The Commonwealth

Games were much reduced as a result and they made a big loss. We're not

looking at that in that situation, and there's that was a sudden

boycott ahead of the games, which we cannot see. I think the Commonwealth

Games here will be very difficult -- different. Although there is a

history of politicisation of the Commonwealth Games in Scotland, the

situation is very different. Some are very busy year for

Scotland. Looking ahead to this afternoon's business, we will get a

statement about winter resilience from the Environment Minister. This

will look at flooding, we have had a bad winter. But the Scottish

Government making this statement, keen to be on top of the weather,

considering what happens. This is a case of lessons having

been learnt. If we think of the winter of 2010, there was huge

problems and traffic on the roads. The then transport Minister was seen

to not have done a very good job. He lost his job as a result. Ever since

then, the Scottish Government has been very keen to keep on top of

anything to do with whether. They would not like to lose a second

minute stuff. -- politician. We have seen statements on the weather,

despite the weather not being as bad as it is in England.

It is not like the conditions in America. We have been seeing the

polar vortex that in the Arctic Circle in North America. Paul

Wheelhouse will be making a statement soon, looking at some of

the challenging whether that we have had soon. We will head to the

chamber now. He is just being introduced. We will listen to him

speak. The severe winter weather across

Scotland during the festive period. We should acknowledge the tremendous

work done by the emergency services during the past two weeks. As I have

seen myself, there is no good reason to be hit by flood damage. It is

leased to disruption. However, looking at these scenarios over the

winter period was very difficult for families and businesses, and the

emergency services dealing with the consequences. Although small in

number, we think of all of those whose Christmas period was adversely

affected by disrupted travel or flooding. Credit must go to the

hundreds of staff across police, ambulance, evacuation and other key

organisations, who sacrificed their Christmas to help others. The

organisation had already been active earlier in the year, working with

power companies and local authorities at -- looking at the

weather conditions earlier in the month. Responders were given an

early warning the week before Christmas of a potential severe

weather warning. This meant that all the organisations could be on alert

and could warn people of what was expected, what people could do to

protect themselves and watch the action that the authorities were

doing. The Scottish Government's resilience was reacted and the

emergency committee copped people through to the Christmas period --

helped people. There was close involvement from the First Minister.

The quarter nested effort, with a sharing of detailed information

helped to ensure that local authorities and services and the

people they represented. -- coordinated effort. This included

the use of the defences in Oban and the deployment of Dumfries and

Galloway services, which provided flood protection equipment to

properties in the area. No one in this chamber would ever expect

Scotland to be immune from terrible weather, and what we have

experienced this year is not unprecedented, but is unusual. The

Met office's staff have done a survey, suggesting that December

2013 was one of the most stormy months in Scotland. Temperatures

were above average. For Scotland and for the UK, this was the mildest

December since 1988. But it was also the wettest December since 1910,

with many areas seeing twice the average rainfall, to give saturated

land not being able to drain. There were 540 millimetres of rain in

December, 240% of the average. 18 of those days saw more than 20

millimetres of rain. We will no longer -- no doubt have even more

rain later. We will continue to monitor the situation, and work with

partners to respond accordingly over the next few weeks. A widespread

flood risk was present throughout the festive period, and in some

areas this was continuous since mid-December. There was seven flood

alert still in place, despite the improved weather over the last few

days. Most of the weather was in line with normal expectations, but

there were lots of rain without brakes, not giving the ground chance

to recover. This was combined with tidal surges, very strong winds.

Some smaller catchments are responsive to these events. I saw

this when I visited an area as a regional member. Escher saw some of

the worst flooding in recent memory. -- Ayrshire. And Islands experienced

the damaging flood surges and gales. The flood forecasting service

was active in providing warnings to local people. This meant that they

could respond to the flooding. Unfortunately, it was not possible

to stop flooding everywhere, but we were able to measure its impact. I

saw the effects of flooding in Dumfries and I visited Govan police

station to see the things being done to stop coastal flooding. They were

providing flood warnings and allowing the public to make informed

decisions. Over the last month SEPA issued 368 flood warning messages to

customers. Since mid-December, SEPA have had over 1,000 new

registrations to their flood line service, an increase of 7%. This is

an invaluable resource and I would encourage members to publicise this

resource. Members will wish to support me in thanking emergency

responders across Scotland. They were consistently available and

active and taking responses to identify flood risk and protecting

communities. This preparedness was essential, however in terms of flood

risk management. Next week I will host a summit with key partners. We

will take stock of the work which will culminate to produce the first

round of flood risk management plans. That was the environment Paul

Wheelhouse. Scottish pupils in the first three years of primary school

will receive free school meals from January next year. The First Minster

outlined the move as MSPs debated Scotland's future, ahead of the

independence referendum this September. Alex Salmond also

announced improvements to childcare. I can announce after discussions we

will fund three school meals for all school-children in primaries one to

three from next January. That measure will build on and of course

learn from the pilots we established in the five local authority areas in

2007. It will remove any possibility of free meals being a source of

stigma during the first years of a child's schooling and improve health

and be wort ?330 a year for each child to families across the

country. The Scottish Government is inecreasing the level of free care

available. That contrasts with the 412 hours we inherited in 2007. I

can announce today that we will increase the number of

two-year-olds, currently 3%, who will benefit from free learning and

care and focus on families most in need. From this August, the

entitlement to cover two-year-olds and families seeking work,

approximately 15% of the total. This will give parents additional support

for employment and will maintain that support when they're

successful. In August 2015, we are going to expand the provision

further for all children who meet the current criteria for free school

meals. So 27% of two-year-olds will be covered, more than 15,000

children in Scotland. We need to create a tax, welfare and child care

system that doesn't plunge children into poverty and puts us on a par

with the best systems in the world and that is why the future of

Scotland's children is the future of Scotland and why Scotland's future

is an independent one. All of a sudden the test of your commitment

on child poverty was on fwree school meals. I would argue it is a much

richer and more substantial debate than that. You could have chosen to

reinvest some of the billion pounds he has cut from antipoverty measures

that provided free breakfasts for poorer children. That would have

been a good thing. When asked about the White Paper, Alex Salmond said

the thing he was most proud of, remember then? The thing he was most

proud of was his commitment to child care. What he had was an opportunity

to show his commitment to child care was more than a referendum ploy and

start delivering for working families and children now. Broken

promises on PE. Broken promises on class sizes and student debt, broken

promises on free school meals. So let's get on to the child care

element of this t. And go back to the 2007 manifesto. Page 49. Our

goal is to deliver universal integrated early education and care,

similar to the Scandinavian model. Again page 51, we will increase the

provision of free nursery education for three and four-year-olds. That

means increasing entitlement from 300 to 600 hours a year. Nearly

seven years it has taken them and that 600 hours of free child care is

still not implemented. Let's get some more political reaction to this

- we'll stay at Holyrood and speak to the SNP's Stewart Maxwell, Liz

Smith from the Conservatives and from Labour, Patricia Ferguson.

Stewart Maxwell, is the First Minister being bounced into this,

because we are getting free school meals in England. That is a Liberal

Democrat policy. A lot of concern about the child care provision in

Scotland, after all the promises in the White Paper, you're being

bounced into that to provide more child care in Scotland? No, I don't

know where you get that from. It is a ridiculous idea. This has been

policy for a number of years. We made progress in our first session

as a minority government, but we with, we were then hit by the world

financial crisis, our budget was cut and it was difficult to make

progress after that. But of course with these Barnett consequentials,

that has allowed us to implement that policy, that is the 85th out of

the 94 promises we made. On child kashgs of course it was in the Whit

paper, but that change requires independence, because we need the

money from other budgets and the money that the tax income would

bring to make that sustainable policy. But we are going as far as

we can and introducing new proposals to allow many two-year-olds, 15,500

two-year-olds, to get the child care that they want to have. That is a

success story and a good news day for families. You admit it took you

a long time to implement the free school meals policy. Just let me

finish. And it is a two-way street with Westminster, your getting ?214

million from the Barnett consequentials and you say that

money would flow to Westminster, be I but you also get money from

Westminster. There is some money available. But thousands of millions

are being cut in real terms from the Scottish budget and a small amount

has come back. That is welcome that we are getting that. But it does

start to make up for the real terms cut. It is only with independence

that we will be allowed to get the full powers to drive forward the

economy and invest in the future of children and grandchildren in this

country. That is the way to do it. Get the powers, the taxation coming

into Scotland and when you have that ability, then you can make the real

transformational changes we want to see. What would the no camp do? They

have been silent. Liz Smith, you were hearing what Mr Maxwell said,

that the Scottish Government have suffered under UK Government budget

cuts and that he needs that transformational care in child care,

and only independence can deliver that. I don't accept it is only

something that could come with independence. That is not true. The

Scottish Government has the powers available now to deliver on both

these and I was a member of the education committee in is in

Parliament in 2007 and 2008 when we took substantial evidence on the

school meals issue. At that time, the Scottish Government was

determined to press the agenda for this free school meals issue, I

don't think they can suddenly say it is just for a referendum issue. The

reason why the Conservatives chose not to agree with the SNP on a

universal policy, is because the evidence that we were given was

compelling. It was put to us by the child action poverty group that by

the time they get to school, it is almost too late. You need to deliver

a policy at the earliest possible ages and we have chosen a priority

on health visiting system, which helps to ensure that youngsters

through their parents and their families, have the best possible

opportunity. That is where our priorities lie. Do you not think

there is a real benefit in free school lunches, but children who may

not be able to afford it and may have been embarrassed about not

being able to afford school lunches can accept them and go home after

having a had a good meal. There are two points there. For some children,

they're crucial, but that is already happening. The issue about stigma,

some of that has been removed, because of the swipe card system in

schools. Several local authorities are using that. I don't think it is

such a relevant argue. When it comes to real priorities and difficult

economic times, I don't think it is acceptable to spend a lot on many

children who don't need the fwree school lunch. -- free school lunch.

The point was put it might be better spent on breakfast time. On the

child care, Mr Maxwell made the point that for that transformational

change in child care, all the extra money flows back to the Treasury in

Westminster. How can you get that kind of shift in child care without

having independence? How can Scotland be able to retain that

money? Because the powers and the finances by mrierty -- priority are

already with the Parliament. The finances are not. I don't accept

that. You choose your own priorities. There is no question

that you should be leaving this to the issue of the referendum. It

should be happening now. Patricia Ferguson, Johann Lamont said

yesterday that school meals would not be my priority in addressing

child poverty. We have been hearing from sfu wart Maxwell the reason for

focussing on school meals, why are they not Labour's priority? It is

important to be clear, we think free school meals are a good thing of

themselves, but the problem we had yesterday was that the SNP motion

cynically tagged on at the end the fact that in their view you could

only achieve good things for young people in Scotland if we were

independent. That is not the case. Our view is that actually you will

help to take more children out of poverty by providing more child

care, for those young children who need it most and those families

where mum needs to go out to work. Soivity is a question of priority

and a question of where you spend your money. The irony of yesterday

was that the SNP actually voted against the issue that they

prioritised when they launched their White Paper. Naseems to be a strange

-- that seems to be a strange position. Focussing on the child

care, the Labour were critical when the White Paper was launched about

the child care proposals, but do you not accept what Stewart Maxwell said

that independence is perhaps needed for that money to be retained in

Scotland? Not at all. We were not critical of the child care measures.

We were critical of the fact that the SNP claimed they could only make

those changes if we were an independent country. My colleagues

have tabled amendments to the SNP's own child care bill that is coming

before Parliament soon, that would allow those measures to be taken in

the immediate future. But they haven't said where the money is

coming from. Actually we have. It would come from all the

consequentials, some that have been spent by the SNP elsewhere. You

would cut the small business bonus. Let her finish. It would be good to

fin whash I was trying to say, that the at the end of the day we have

identified where that money can come from and put our amendment into the

bill and we hope the SNP will vote for it. After all it is their

flagship policy we are told. This is a big issue in the referendum, let's

focus on the campaign and we have been heard from Lord McConnell

calling for a truce during the Commonwealth Games.

I think it is a bit nonsensical. I do not see the point of campaigning

where there is a two-week sporting event. It does not make any sense to

me at all to suspend the referendum campaigning six weeks before the

referendum. The people in Scotland have a right to get involved in

this, it does not make sense. What is your position on this?

I think what Lord McConnell is saying is that nobody, respective of

their views, such... Should be using the Commonwealth Games for political

means. I don't think it will be stopping political campaigning, but

I think it would be wrong for any side to make the Commonwealth Games

a political football. We have seen previous Olympic Games where it has

been politicised, and nobody comes out of that well. So I agree with

Lord McConnell. Patricia Ferguson, the SNP say it is

nonsensical. Others say it will not happen. Do you agree with Lord

McConnell? Is it practical? I think the point that he was making

was that when we launched the bid, we did so with cross party support.

That cross-party mood for support has persisted right through to the

present day. We don't want to see the last two weeks of that journey

in anyway sullied by politicisation. I, as a former sports minister, I

went to the Melbourne games, and I proudly wore the flag, the saltire,

on my shirt. I want people to be able to do that in Glasgow, and it

not to be a political matter. I want is all to be behind our athletes and

have the best festival of sport that we can have.

Thank you for joining us. MSP will have failed the people of

Scotland and less they reduce the dominance of traditional sporting

estates. That is the message from Paul Wheelhouse, the minister in

charge of reform. He says that the news to be a fair distribution of

land. There will be questions about whether the distribution of land is

a problem. Here is an extraordinary statistic.

Research suggests that just 432 people own half the privately held

land in Scotland. That is largely down to big estates are created for

shooting and fishing. The table of big land owners includes the

government, The National Trust for Scotland, and the RSPB. But

traditional estates still hold five of the top ten places, with this

estate are leading the pack. The Scottish Government wants to see

change. We believe that there should be a

fair distribution of land. Communities should have access to

land. That is something that we will be setting out provisions for.

If in decades to come we still have a passion of -- pattern of land

ownership in rural Scotland were big sporting estates and dominate the

land, will that be a failure of government?

If we don't see a more fair distribution of land, we will have

failed the people of Scotland. But is fairness and issue the

government should act on? One man, who owns a very large estate, thinks

not. This is a critical element in life.

It may not be fair, but it is -- is it fair that your wife is more

pretty than mine, that you win the lottery and I don't? It is a concern

stirred up by those with axes to grind. The people who live in these

large areas, it does not seem to bother them. The government has set

up an expert group to look at land ownership.

The minister says he does not want to get rid of all bigger states, but

he has asked for radical proposals. He will get them in the spring.

We will pick up on that issue with Hamish. He is still here in the

studio. Some extraordinary statistics about land in Scotland.

We are hearing from Paul Wheelhouse, the Scottish Government

wants change and a fairer distribution of land. But is this

difficult to achieve? It is difficult to achieve. If you

look back at the early days of Parliament, we have already had one

major land reform act which tried to change the system behind land

ownership in Scotland. I think that the SNP government try to go further

because they feel that it is their duty to go further, however

difficult it may be. I think there is a sense in which there is a

feeling within some parts of the urban elite in Scotland that somehow

landowners are bad and that community ownership is right. There

are occasions where community ownership has not worked and

community have not. The land that was offered to them. The danger is

that we get sucked into characterisation, without looking at

what could be do -- be done to look after land ownership in this

country. Labour has criticised the Scottish

Government, looking at what is in the documentary this evening. Labour

is saying that they are going to continue to do right to buy, even if

people are not willing to sell. That is controversial, because they

are looking to break up some of the traditional sporting estates and let

farmers have chunks of it. But if you do that, you devalue the land.

And what would the market by UB? One of the big things that are

landowners have profited from has-been wind farms and renewables.

And if you were to get the mission for renewables on your land, that

puts the price up. So forcing a landowner to sell when they do not

agree with the valuation that has been put on it is very difficult.

So in Prime Minister's Questions, it was a sombre mood at first,

following the announcement that the Labour MP Paul Goggins had died.

Later, there was hilarity over questions about the referendum. But

first, Ed Miliband talked about the weather.

Why has it taken so long for some of the distribution energy companies to

restore power over the Christmas period, and what steps will be taken

to stop that happening again? I think he is right, there are

always lessons to learn. There are lessons to learn on this occasion.

On the positive side, the Environment Agency warning service

works better than it has in the past. Over 1 million homes were

protected. But there are some negatives there, and we need to

learn lessons. With the energy companies did not have enough people

over the holiday period for emergency response. I saw that for

myself in Kent. So we need to learn these lessons. The Energy Secretary

is already looking at the levels of compensation and the speed of

response from energy companies, but I would welcome from all members of

all constituencies affected by flooding what they see on the ground

about lessons that can be learned so that we can make sure that we are

even more prepared in the future. The Prime Minister will know that

the science is clear that the extreme weather conditions affecting

our communities are a destructive and inevitable consequence, in part,

of climate change. Given that he has said that this should be the

greenest government ever, will he agreed to support carbon reduction

targets, so we can protect more people?

It makes sense to invest in flood defences and get information out. We

should see all of these things. As for carbon reduction targets, we are

committed to that. We worked with the last government to put the

carbon act into place. It would not have happened without our support.

We will be investing liens of pounds into important green projects.

The Prime Minister's anti-independence programme launched

an initiative to get people outside Scotland involved in debate. Why

will you not speak to the First Minister and debate with him on

television? These calls for a debate show a

mounting frustration, because people know that they are losing the

argument. Of course there should be a debate, but it is a debate between

people in Scotland. Can I agree with the Prime

Minister? It is genuinely absurd that the leader of the no campaign

in Scotland cannot get a debate with the leader of the yes campaign in

Scotland. The leader of the yes campaign demands a debate with

someone who does not have a vote. Does the Prime Minister agree with

me that in politics, as in shipbuilding, empty vessels make the

most noise? I am not finished!

There is more. Without seeking to give offence to the Prime Minister,

could I tell him that the last person Scots who support the no

campaign want to have as their representative is a Tory toff from

the Home Counties, even one with a fine hair cut?

I also humbly accept that, whilst I am sure that many people in Scotland

would like to hear me talk about this issue, my appeal does not

stretch to every part. But the key point here is making is correct. The

reason that the leaders of the yes campaign and the no campaign cannot

get a debate, the people who want to break up the United Kingdom know

that they are losing the argument, so they want to break up the United

Kingdom. End of term hilarity at Westminster.

We will talk to our reporter at Westminster.

Happy New Year to you. It will be a busy year at Westminster and in

Scotland, and a busy year relating to what happens to Scotland in the

weeks and months to come. I have three guests with me. I am joined by

representatives from the Liberal Democrats, Labour and the Scottish

National Party. Welcome to you all. Jerry, you will be in the house of

lords this evening, when you will be debating about the Commonwealth

Games in Glasgow. He wants to take the politics out of sport, as

regards to the Commonwealth Games. Is that likely to happen?

I think it is a wise suggestion. I will be supporting his argument. I

would like, when the world's eyes are on Glasgow in the summer, for

him to see sports people and athletes striving in their own

sport, not politicians striving to get capital out of it. So I think it

is a good warning that we should focus on the games taking place, not

whether or not politicians are trying to get popularity. We should

let the sport to take place. There is enough time before the referendum

for a full debate. The debate will carry on throughout the games, but

allow the window of the world to be on Glasgow in the games to make sure

it is as accessible as possible. Will that be likely to happen? Or

will you enjoyed colleagues not be able to resist the temptation? --

will you and your colleagues? I think everyone has been working

together since 2004 to get the Commonwealth Games to Glasgow, and I

would be surprised if anyone would want to exploit them at this stage.

There has been a lot of media coverage, and it will be covering

what is happening in the stadiums, rather than the referendum at that

stage. We may all look at the sport for a

couple of weeks, maybe we won't carry about the politics?

I think that the politicians will always care about the politics.

These Commonwealth Games will be a massive success, that is very

important. But I think that the politicians will fly their own flags

in support of their own national teams, but it is the support that

comes first in the Commonwealth Games. The politics will come

second. The idea that you can sense that you can censor out a political

argument is preposterous. So you will encourage English

politicians to come up and fly the St George flag in Glasgow?

Yes, I want everyone to support their own teams as best as they can.

That is normal and natural. I will return to that point.

Politicians being politicians, they will not be able to resist the

opportunity of trying to get and it -- an advantage here?

We are all proud of Scotland. We are proud of Glasgow. We are proud of

what will happen. We will certainly show our support for the games. But

I think it would be unwise for anyone to exploit them. We saw what

happened to George Osborne at the Olympics, and it would be a shame if

those kind of circumstances repeat themselves.

We will move onto another issue. Television debates the referendum

campaign will stop at Prime Minister's Question Time, we had a

call for David Cameron and Alex Salmond to debate to head to head.

I was watching for them -- I was watching from the gallery, and I

think it is right. As much as everyone in the rest of the United

Kingdom will have opinions and views, it really is a debate that

should be had tween those who will be having a vote. I think it is

right that the leader of the yes campaign should debate with the

leader of the no campaign, and people with different views should

debate. It is not an issue of other parts of the United Kingdom against

Scotland, or the Prime Minister debating against Scotland, and are

examined debating for Scotland's. -- Alex Salmond. That is insulting. It

is a debate between the two campaigns. Why can't the leader of

the no campaign get a debate with the leader of the yes campaign. Yes,

we devolved the legislation to allow the referendum to happen in Scotland

to be a decision taken by Scots to be run by Scots. It is bizarre that

Alex Salmond only wants to debate an Englishman on this and won't debate

another Scotsman. Well the First Minister has been clear, he will

debate with anybody. If we are going to have the chief executives of the

campaigns and the chairman of the campaigns debate, we should have a

proper debate between the First Minister and Prime Minister. The

Prime Minister has said he wants to defend the union, Westminster are

pulling the strings on this, so he can't manipulate things and then run

away from the debate. This should be a debate between the First Minister

and the Prime Minister and the then the First Minister will debate after

that. He has made that clear. The Scottish referendum is not the only

campaign, we have the euro elections and throughout the United Kingdom

immigration is likely to be a big issue. Is that good or bad? I think

it will be a bigger issue in some parts than others. That is one of

the glories of having the debate. Some more rural areas are more

focussed on agriculture and some will be attuned in England. But

across the board, I think Scotland's voice is properly represented in the

EU. The Liberal Democrats will be fighting a positive pro-European

campaign and George Lion has been a superb MEP for Scotland and we will

work to make sure he is re-elected for voice hi has provided for

Scotland. Not just in Scotland, but throughout the United Kingdom, are

you worried if we get into a debate on immigration it can be conducted

in a cool and dispassionate way? I hope that it can. But there are some

elements and parties who are seeking not to have a rationale debate. But

to have a debate based on fear. That is unfortunate. There are some in

some areas of the country, people have concerns about pressures on

services and about the employment market. We think there is more the

Government could be doing to enforce the minimum wage, to make sure that

people aren't being undercut in the labour market. I hope we can have a

sensible discussion. Are you worried that the immigration debate could

perhaps get out of control? No, I am not in Scotland. Although I do think

as others have said, in parts of the UK, there is a concern that it could

happen. I'm the same as Jemma, I think there is a acceptsible --

sensible debate to have so Scotland and the UK get the skilled people we

need. But much of the Westminster debate is dog whistle debate and it

is Tory backbenchers scared of UKIP politicians. That is unhelpful.

Thank you. As I think you get an impression, this is going to be a

huge political year, not only in Scotland, but pretty important down

here at Westminster as well. Thank you. Let's head back to the chamber

at Holyrood now for something completely different from the winter

resilience statement - a debate on Scotland's economy. The Finance

Secretary John Swinney is welcoming the green shoots of recovery, but

says that's been delayed by the UK Government's economic mismanagement,

as he puts it. Let's dip back into the chamber. John Swinney is

speaking. Now, the Scottish Government sets out in our budget to

discuss the different stages of the government's budget programme, which

is focussed in a whole variety of different areas, whether on the

development of skills, or on the execution of our capital invest

programme, or about the steps taken forward to ensure that all aspects

of policy in government are focussed on economic growth, to ensure that

the programme and policy development that we exercise within our own

competence is taken, is maximised to contribute towards economic growth

in Scotland. We as a government have attached a Sigg captain amount --

significant amount of attention to ensure that businesses in Scotland

can take forward their investments in Scotland and knowing they

operated within the most competitive business rates regime in the UK. We

are proud that over 90,000 small businesses are able to pay either

reduced business rates, or no business rates. That is a policy

commitment that we confirm very firmly to Parliament today that we

believe that our manifesto commitments to support the small

business community with a small business bonus scheme, that we

should have businesses in Scotland paying the same poundage that

businesses in England pay. We believe there is an port commitn't

to -- important commitment to ensure the business community can plan for

the future and able to invest in the operations and the activities of the

business community. Now, we will continue to assert those during the

course of the Parliamentary passage of the budget. This government makes

clear there is a certain amount of economic impact that we can achieve

through the response v responsibilities that --

responsibilities that we have, but there is more that we would want to

do with the greater powers of independence. We would want to focus

policy more through using the tax system to support innovation and the

development of new technologies and would want to ensure that an

integrated tax system that was integrated and joined together, the

various aspects of corporate taxation, with the needs of our

economy, or the links between employability and personal taxation

and welfare policies were all linked in a coherent way. That we could

ensure that that system operated on a more focussed and efficient basis,

that thirdly we could take steps to support the development of a more

integrated global economy with greater success in regard to inward

invest ement. And finally in boosting participation in the labour

market, which we believe to be of fundamental importance to ensuring

the growth and the development of the Scottish economy. At the heart

of the white paper that was published in November, is the

Government's commitment to expand in, by a transformational level the

volume of child care available in Scotland. We have explained how that

can only be done by having the scale of resources available to us to

redeploy resources that should be better spent in Scotland by

investing in child care and not being spent on supporting the

weapons of mass destruction that are supported by the public finances of

the United Kingdom. One minute left. What our priority is to make sure

that we use those resources for the maximum economic benefit within

Scotland. We can take some of the steps the First Minister outlined

yesterday, within our economisting -- existing competence and create an

additional 2,000 child care work places through funding of ?3.5

million the government will make available for the development of

child care workforce to increase employment. We can do that within

the competence of the Scottish Government. If we want to take

forward the effects of the approach on child care that we set out in

Scotland's future, we must have the ability to take the strategic

decisions to redeploy expenditure and support the growth of the

economy and to ensure that the resources that generates, the

benefits that generates for the Scottish economy can be re-invested

to nvigorate the economy and deliver the opportunities to the people of

Scotland and I move the motion in my name. Thank you. I call on Ian Grey

to speak to the amendment. A strict ten minutes please. Thank you and I

move the amendment in my name. Improvements in the employment

position, the economic position, the signs of economic recovery outlined

by the cabinet Secretary are welcome. But he did I think describe

them as relatively positive and wisely, because to understand the

fragility of the economic position, we co-have -- do have to look behind

the headline figures at the reality of the recovery from many Scots and

their families. The truth is there are still almost 75,000 more Scots

unemployed than with when the cabinet Secretary took office. There

is a long way to go yet. And true too that too many of the jobs which

have been created are insecure, temporary, part-time, zero hour

contracts, or poorly paid. That was Ian Grey speaking. You can follow

that debate on the web-site. Now a final chat with Hamish McDonnell.

Let's pick up on immigration, it has been a big topic even over Christmas

and looking ahead to the European elections in May. It will be a big

topic until then isn't it? Yes, it is. Imcombrags is -- immigration is

a funny issue that has worked up the political agenda and is now in

second or third place. It has been pushed there by Conservative

backbench MPs worried about UKIP. And whether or not those fears that

people have about immigration are really true, or not, or whether they

are being whipped up by some MPs. We will have to wait and see. What is

important is there appears to be difference between the way Scotland

views immigration and the way certainly part of southern England

view immigration. I don't think it is nearly the sort of issue here

that it is in England. I think you will see that in the results of

European elections that UKIP will do well in England. But I would be

surprised if it does anything like as well in Scotland. In fact it

would really struggle to get above any of the other parties in

Scotland. Immigration is a key part in the Scottish referendum. The

Scottish Government says immigration would help to grow the economy. Yes,

they have been positive about immigration. It doesn't have the

same impact in Scotland and we have a need for skilled workers to come

in from outside and the Scottish Government has said, yes, we would

welcome a people to come to Scotland to give us that employment boost and

the skill levels that we haven't got. That has changed the debate and

it is a different debate up here for the referendum than as far as

looking ahead to the next UK general election in England. In terms of

debate, we have the European elections, will it set the heather

on fire do you think? It is the forgotten election. This is the

election that everyone has forgotten about, because it is so much further

down the ranking than the referendum and turn out may be poor in

Scotland. Thank you for that. That's all we have time for this afternoon.

We're back at the same time next week, 2.30, here on BBC Two. Thanks

for your company, bye for now.