09/03/2016 Politics Scotland


09/03/2016

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Good afternoon and welcome to Politics Scotland.

:00:18.:00:19.

Coming up on the programme: official figures reveal the impact

:00:20.:00:22.

the sharp decline in the North Sea oil sector,

:00:23.:00:26.

The Government's promised to speed up payments to farmers hit

:00:27.:00:31.

by delays, but the Conservatives are calling for an inquiry.

:00:32.:00:33.

And here at Westminster, will the SNP scupper plans by the UK

:00:34.:00:40.

Government to relax the rules on Sunday trading in England

:00:41.:00:42.

Newly published figures show the impact on Scotland's economy

:00:43.:00:50.

The slump in the oil price means Scotland's overall tax take per head

:00:51.:00:54.

lags behind the UK for the first time since the start of the 1980s.

:00:55.:00:59.

Ministers insist Scotland's economy remains fundamentally strong,

:01:00.:01:01.

only outpaced by London and the south-east of England.

:01:02.:01:05.

But opposition leaders say Scotland would have faced big cuts

:01:06.:01:10.

in spending if Scots had opted for independence.

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Our Political Editor Brian Taylor has this report.

:01:12.:01:18.

These slump in prices and lower tax revenues, and has now worked through

:01:19.:01:24.

to Scotland's balance sheet. We are talking here about 2014 slash 2015.

:01:25.:01:31.

It is reckoned that Scotland's share of oil revenues was 1.8 alien

:01:32.:01:37.

pounds. That is down from really ?4 billion in the previous year, a

:01:38.:01:42.

reduction of this defies %. Scottish Ministers visit a high-tech site in

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Edinburgh and stressed that Scotland's onshore economy is

:01:46.:01:49.

growing, compensating for problems in the North Sea. They admit the

:01:50.:01:52.

figures are challenging. There is no getting away from the fact that yes,

:01:53.:01:57.

this is a difficult time for the oil and gas sector, and that is

:01:58.:02:01.

reflected in the figures, but Scotland's economy is strong. And if

:02:02.:02:04.

you look over the medium-term, that strength is obvious. If you look at

:02:05.:02:09.

higher employment, higher product growth, that strength is obvious.

:02:10.:02:14.

The growth in onshore revenues like Spain that of the UK. Scotland's

:02:15.:02:18.

overall tax take her head, including oil, is fractionally lower than that

:02:19.:02:23.

of the UK for the first time in 36 years. The oil revenue figures may

:02:24.:02:28.

be worse in the current financial year. Critics say that means

:02:29.:02:32.

Scotland would have been in big trouble if we had voted for

:02:33.:02:37.

independence. We would have been facing huge cuts now if Scotland had

:02:38.:02:41.

voted for independence. The deficit has doubled, it would have had a

:02:42.:02:44.

huge impact on public services, cuts to schools, cuts to hospitals. And

:02:45.:02:51.

each time of asking, the SNP misled the people about the scale of that

:02:52.:02:57.

deficit. But Ministers say North Sea oil has sent a total of ?300 billion

:02:58.:03:01.

to the Treasury without any oil fund being established in Scotland. They

:03:02.:03:05.

have urged the Chancellor to assist the industry in the forthcoming

:03:06.:03:06.

budget. And our Political Correspondent

:03:07.:03:07.

Andrew Kerr is following the story Is this causing a stramash? It is,

:03:08.:03:25.

in a way. In a way, it is a very dry document full of facts and figures

:03:26.:03:31.

and percentages, but at the heart of it lie perhaps arguments and against

:03:32.:03:36.

independence. It is a profit and loss account for Scotland. You had

:03:37.:03:40.

the First Minister saying, things are quite bad and the North Sea at

:03:41.:03:44.

the moment, but onshore the economy is performing quite strongly. But

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when you look at it, there has been a 55 percentage decline in revenue

:03:50.:03:54.

from Rossi oil and gas, perhaps showing the importance of that to

:03:55.:04:01.

the Scottish economy. And of course the prounion parties, Labour,

:04:02.:04:03.

Tories, the Lib Dems, they are saying that we have dodged a bullet

:04:04.:04:07.

here when it comes to independence. If people had voted yes for

:04:08.:04:12.

independence Scotland would have been becoming an independent country

:04:13.:04:17.

in the next couple of weeks. So this dry document highlights the key

:04:18.:04:19.

arguments behind the independence debate. There has been a stramash

:04:20.:04:27.

year I suppose. There was talk there that we had been misled. You could

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put another interpretation on it, obviously this is a difficult point

:04:32.:04:34.

for the Scottish Government, but they could reasonably say, look, we

:04:35.:04:39.

could not possibly have known that the oil prices were going to for

:04:40.:04:44.

that much nobody else did either. Or they would have made a fortune.

:04:45.:04:50.

Indeed. And the Scottish Government points to UK Government figures

:04:51.:04:52.

looking ahead to the same period which should perhaps the same amount

:04:53.:04:56.

of revenue coming in, and the Scottish Government would also point

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out that the price of oil goes up and down, the north-east of Scotland

:05:00.:05:03.

has benefited from that in the past, it has suffered the drops in the

:05:04.:05:09.

late 1980s and early 1990s as well. But I think the key point here is

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that perhaps there was too much emphasis placed on oil, although the

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Scottish Government were saying at the time that oil was just a bonus.

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It depends on your political point of view on that one. But I think it

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is an interesting point that the parties here continue to argue. And

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as Brian said in that piece, these figures do not take into account the

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current financial year, which in 2015 was pretty devastating for the

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North Sea oil industry, 2016 as well. We have seen a lot more job

:05:42.:05:45.

losses. So when we get the next round of figures, these will be even

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worse. Those glory days, we will be saying, when we get next year's

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figures. And my guest this afternoon

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is Andy Maciver, who was formerly Head of Communications

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for the Scottish Conservatives This is difficult for the Scottish

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Government. Very. A lot of the problem has been caused by the

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amount of stock the bit in the oil price during the referendum debate.

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They did not have to frame it quite like that. As you said," addicted

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the price was going to come down quite as much, but the emphasis they

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put on oil during the referendum debate is what has caused these

:06:25.:06:27.

problems now. It was not just emphasis. They now say that they

:06:28.:06:35.

always said oil was today bonus. But every single figure they produced to

:06:36.:06:38.

forecast Scotland's budget on independence included oil at $113

:06:39.:06:45.

per barrel. And if they had created an economic case based on oil being

:06:46.:06:51.

a bonus, it would been a much more sound campaign anyway. And they

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could have that economic case for Scotland being independent without

:06:55.:06:58.

oil. It is possible to do. There is another side to this, which the

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Government has pointed out, if you look at revenues in Scotland by

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capita, only London and the South-East and east of England are

:07:07.:07:09.

ahead of Scotland. We are ahead of the UK average. That is a wholesale

:07:10.:07:14.

transformation, I think, from the 1980s would have been average or

:07:15.:07:20.

below. Absolutely. It does highlight that Scotland is actually a pretty

:07:21.:07:23.

good shape. It highlights another problem which is that emphasis is

:07:24.:07:26.

far too much on spending and not on raising. A lot of this is on how

:07:27.:07:30.

much public spending would have needed to be cut if Scotland had an

:07:31.:07:33.

independent, but if they were looking more through the looking

:07:34.:07:37.

glass of reform and savings appear rather than always looking at

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expenditure, they could have balanced these two things much more

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effectively permitted. Andy, would be back with you later on.

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Now to Westminster, where the SNP are set to side

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with Labour and Conservative rebels, in blocking the Government's plan

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to extend Sunday opening hours in England and Wales.

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Our Westminster Correspondent David Porter joins us now.

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It is becoming controversial because the SNP were not supposed to be

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voting on matters which I'm sure most English MPs would consider have

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nothing to do with Scotland. On the face of it it does seem rather

:08:11.:08:17.

strange that the SNP is intervening on legislation which technically

:08:18.:08:21.

just involves England and Wales, and that is to relax or liberalise

:08:22.:08:24.

Sunday trading laws in England and Wales. At the moment shops in

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Scotland are open for longer on Sunday than they are in England, in

:08:29.:08:32.

England large stores can only open continuously for six hours.

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Supermarkets and things open from 10am until 4pm. This legislation

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would allow those laws to be liberalised, that is, to be relaxed.

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The SNP says that at the moment workers in Scotland are paid a

:08:50.:08:52.

premium, paid more for working on Sunday. They are worried that if the

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liberalisation happens around the UK, and if in essence in other Wales

:08:57.:09:02.

catch up with Scotland, depending on your point of view, or go down the

:09:03.:09:06.

Scottish route, you will have a situation where in future companies

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say, this is UK wide, so you do not need these premium payments in

:09:11.:09:13.

Scotland. They are arguing that although they are in favour of

:09:14.:09:17.

Sunday trading, they are seeking to try to protect Scottish workers.

:09:18.:09:21.

Something else which is important in a Scottish political context, the

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SNP have looked at this and thought about the Holyrood election

:09:29.:09:31.

campaign. What would happen if they supported the UK Government or

:09:32.:09:33.

abstained? Labour would then go after them saying, you are propping

:09:34.:09:37.

up the Conservatives on this measure. That would not play well

:09:38.:09:41.

amongst many in Scotland in the Holyrood election campaign. Thanks,

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but do not go away, we will be back with you later on. Andy Maciver,

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this is an odd one. You will vote against what we have in Scotland

:09:56.:10:00.

because we're worried about... I understood something about wages?

:10:01.:10:06.

Yes, if employers consider this to be a UK wide issue, then the premium

:10:07.:10:09.

wages that Scottish workers are on a Sunday would no longer be there. If

:10:10.:10:15.

you want to create a case for being able to vote on everything because

:10:16.:10:18.

of the impact it has on Scotland, you could probably create that case

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if you wanted, because it will always be some impact somewhere,

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whether it is finance or some theoretical impact. But this is

:10:26.:10:29.

stretching it quite far, I think, to vote on this. I think the impact is

:10:30.:10:33.

very marginal, possibly zero, quite speculative. This thing that Alex

:10:34.:10:38.

Salmond used to say, that he was quite happy not to vote on

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English... That is the window publicly, is it? That has gone. That

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has been replaced by politics and political imperative. David is

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correct that this is a political move, no question whatsoever.

:10:50.:10:52.

The Conservatives are leading the debate in the Holyrood chamber

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today, focusing on the delayed payment of Common Agricultural

:10:55.:10:57.

The EU subsidy is designed to act as a safety net for farmers

:10:58.:11:02.

and crofters by supplementing their main business income.

:11:03.:11:04.

And the money is allocated by the Scottish Government.

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But the payments have been affected by major issues due to the IT system

:11:08.:11:10.

Alex Fergusson, the conservative spokesperson for Rural Affairs

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is on his feet, let's cross over to the chamber.

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I hope this time the Cabinet Secretary can deliver. Yesterday's

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announcement followed the recent trend of last-minute announcements

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that a cynic might think was designed purely to deflect growing

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criticism. First we had the announcement of a 20 billion

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last-ditch loan fund, after a beating a promise to be tempestuous.

:11:50.:11:56.

And last week after debate about the timing of payments, the Cabinet

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secretary announced he would make national funds available to make

:11:59.:12:04.

sure that these payments where the' sixes of a million, would be paid in

:12:05.:12:09.

March as usual. And now the Cabinet Secretary has waved his magic wand

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and found the money from national funds to deflect this growing crisis

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once again. No wonder the still cared was able once again to smile

:12:18.:12:23.

again in the Chamber, which was nice to see after weeks of growing and

:12:24.:12:28.

justified criticism. And it is as well that his colleague Mr Swinney

:12:29.:12:31.

appears to have such deep pockets when it is expedient to do so.

:12:32.:12:39.

However, this opportune announcement may deflect immediate criticism but

:12:40.:12:41.

it will not make the underlying problems disappear. And we need to

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look at how we have arrived at this sorry state of affairs. That was

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back in the 11th of June 2014 that the Cabinet secretary made the

:12:53.:12:56.

announcement on how the new support system would operate in Scotland.

:12:57.:13:00.

And it was in many ways a momentous announcement because it moved us

:13:01.:13:03.

away from a support system based largely on productivity to one based

:13:04.:13:10.

on area alone. Which in Scotland, which he defied % of land is

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classified as less favoured, presents no small challenge. -- 85%.

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And the broader shift away from support payments in the south and

:13:21.:13:22.

east of the country towards the north and the West. It truly great

:13:23.:13:28.

challenge indeed. And thanks to the eminently sensible decision of the

:13:29.:13:31.

UK Government to negotiate Scotland's ability to design and

:13:32.:13:35.

implement a CAP support system tailor-made to Scottish conditions,

:13:36.:13:38.

the responsibility for that system they squarely with the Scottish

:13:39.:13:44.

Government from day one. Later, if I may. How to best mitigate against

:13:45.:13:49.

the most averaging impact of these reforms have been this a bit of

:13:50.:13:53.

intense discussion, debate and consultation over many preceding

:13:54.:13:56.

months, and they continued right up to the 59th minute of the 11th hour

:13:57.:14:00.

as various sectors within the agricultural industry made their

:14:01.:14:03.

case for special considerations. I recall meeting with the Cabinet

:14:04.:14:08.

secretary to discuss the concerns of the beef breeding sector on the eve

:14:09.:14:14.

of the announcement. Final decisions were being made at the very last

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minute. The eventual outcome as detailed by the announcement in June

:14:18.:14:23.

2014 was generally thought to be a genuine effort to please everyone.

:14:24.:14:27.

As the Cabinet secretary himself did at the time, fitting square pegs

:14:28.:14:32.

into round holes. On the problem of trying to please everyone, as I said

:14:33.:14:35.

at the time, is that you can end up pleasing practically no one. That is

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pretty much what seems to have happened when you look at where we

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are today. Because despite yesterday's announcement, the whole

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regime is in disarray. It is an unfortunate situation that remains

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100% of the Scottish Government's meeting. I'm grateful to him for

:14:53.:14:58.

giving way. I wonder if at this moment he would specify the bits of

:14:59.:15:04.

the inference that were put in place by the Cabinet secretary that he

:15:05.:15:08.

would have done differently? I am coming to that, because we do not

:15:09.:15:11.

need to look any further than the new IT system that the Cabinet

:15:12.:15:14.

secretary commissioned to operate the new regime to find out. And the

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warnings were there for all to see from the moment the single

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application form window for applications opened in March 20 15.

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We now know that industry experts were issuing warnings about the

:15:27.:15:31.

likely problems in mid-2014, but the Government had other priorities on

:15:32.:15:35.

its mind at that particular time. From the outset, those trying to use

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the online application system reported extreme difficulties,

:15:40.:15:42.

describing it as unfit for purpose and totally flawed in many respects.

:15:43.:15:44.

I vividly recall being taken through that process, and could only agree

:15:45.:15:51.

with one person's frustrated assessment that would be far better

:15:52.:15:55.

to revert to a paper-based application process, something I

:15:56.:15:58.

would have considered doing, which is of course what later record. That

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is exactly what the UK Government did. An action that has them much

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derided by the Cabinet secretary, but which resulted in farmers south

:16:06.:16:11.

of the border being furnished with paper forms preloaded with the

:16:12.:16:14.

previous year's information, enabling both applications and

:16:15.:16:19.

payments to be made on time. Furthermore, that delay allowed

:16:20.:16:21.

technicians to get on with building a system which I believe is now fit

:16:22.:16:25.

for purpose and ready to receive 2016 applications. That is a

:16:26.:16:29.

sensible plan B, and it appears that the Scottish Government did not have

:16:30.:16:33.

one. Every time the Cabinet secretary was challenged about these

:16:34.:16:36.

problems, he repeated that the changes here in Scotland were really

:16:37.:16:40.

complex, and the staff are working around the clock to overcome the

:16:41.:16:45.

difficulties. And I'm sure they did, I do not doubt that. And yes, it was

:16:46.:16:49.

a complex system, but I repeat that it was and still is a system

:16:50.:16:53.

designed, in fermented and signed off by the Cabinet secretary alone.

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The responsibility for both it and its values rest with him and him

:16:58.:16:59.

alone. The Conservatives' Rural Affairs

:17:00.:17:01.

spokesperson Alex Fergusson speaking And we'll be back to hear

:17:02.:17:03.

from the Government in that debate Now I'm joined from

:17:04.:17:08.

the Scottish Parliament's lobby by Stewart Maxwell from the SNP,

:17:09.:17:13.

Labour's Jackie Baillie and the Liberal Democrats'

:17:14.:17:15.

Liam McArthur. The figures that emerged today, can

:17:16.:17:29.

I read from the White Paper that the Scottish Government produced during

:17:30.:17:33.

the defendant 's referendum campaign? It said," by independents

:17:34.:17:43.

in 2016/2017, Scotland's deficit is forecast to have fallen to 2.5% and

:17:44.:17:49.

3.2% of GDP." Would you like to comment? If you're saying that every

:17:50.:17:54.

single and it's got the estimate that while price is wrong, I would

:17:55.:17:58.

agree with you. Certainly, we got it wrong. The First Minister has been

:17:59.:18:02.

clear on that. But the UK Government, the Department of

:18:03.:18:04.

energy, said it would be even higher. There is a world crisis in

:18:05.:18:10.

terms of the oil industry, nobody is denying that. And of course it has

:18:11.:18:14.

also hit here in Scotland. The fact remains that the underlying Scottish

:18:15.:18:19.

economy is fundamentally strong. The problem with that argument is that

:18:20.:18:23.

you now say, we only ever said oil was a bonus, the underlying economy

:18:24.:18:28.

is strong. But as reflected in that quote I gave you, every single

:18:29.:18:30.

forecast of Scotland's economy and fiscal situation that the SNP

:18:31.:18:35.

produced during the referendum campaign included oil at $113 per

:18:36.:18:43.

barrel. You did not say, here is our position without oil and user

:18:44.:18:46.

position with oil, as in that quote I gave you, you included all the oil

:18:47.:18:51.

money. I'm sorry, we made it very clear that oil was a bonus, and are

:18:52.:18:55.

fundamentally the Scottish economy excluding oil was roughly in line

:18:56.:18:59.

with the rest of the UK. But the fact is, the UK Prime Minister said

:19:00.:19:05.

that if we voted no, that would be a ?200 billion oil bonanza. Perhaps he

:19:06.:19:10.

should come and apologise on your programme. The fact is everybody got

:19:11.:19:14.

this wrong in terms of estimates of oil price. It was a prediction, we

:19:15.:19:18.

got it wrong and everybody else did, that is a fact. But the fundamental

:19:19.:19:23.

position that the Scottish economy is fundamentally strong, we have

:19:24.:19:29.

seen a ?6 billion growth in onshore revenues. The fact is it is a strong

:19:30.:19:32.

economy and we should be pleased about that at the same time

:19:33.:19:37.

recognising the difficulties. Jackie Baillie, it was an understandable

:19:38.:19:42.

error. Quite simply the SNP misled the people of Scotland in advance of

:19:43.:19:45.

the referendum. The figures published today tell us that not

:19:46.:19:49.

only would I deficit have doubled, but we would have been facing ?15

:19:50.:19:54.

billion of cuts. In perspective, that is more than the entirety of

:19:55.:20:00.

the health budget for Scotland. You say misled. They got it wrong.

:20:01.:20:03.

Stewart Maxwell has accepted that. It is a bit much to say the misled

:20:04.:20:07.

people. You did not know the oil price was going to crash anymore

:20:08.:20:12.

than they did. I think everybody was saying that the instability of oil

:20:13.:20:14.

prices is something that has featured in the past, there was

:20:15.:20:18.

always a deficit because Scotland then and now Angeli spends more than

:20:19.:20:24.

we raising revenue, so that was good to be a deficit. But the scale of

:20:25.:20:28.

the deficit now is double what they imagined it would be. The

:20:29.:20:31.

consequences of that for people would have been the closure of

:20:32.:20:33.

hospitals and schools, devastating cuts. That is not nonsense. This

:20:34.:20:40.

Government cut ?500 million from the budget. They are now talking about

:20:41.:20:46.

cutting... They would have had to cut ?15 billion budget. Liam

:20:47.:20:54.

McCarthy, can we see you? The other side of this, whether Scottish

:20:55.:20:58.

Government has a point, is things have changed since the 1980s,

:20:59.:21:02.

haven't they? Because actually revenues in Scotland per capita

:21:03.:21:10.

good, both most areas of the UK apart from the South-East of

:21:11.:21:15.

England. He suggested that have reaped been facing the prospect of

:21:16.:21:18.

an independent Scotland in two weeks, the finances of the newly

:21:19.:21:22.

independent nation would have been fairly ruinous. Whether or not it is

:21:23.:21:27.

misled, what is evident from the figures today is that the Scottish

:21:28.:21:35.

Government got this badly wrong. Anybody who assert that can predict

:21:36.:21:38.

with great confidence for the oil price will be going forward needs to

:21:39.:21:41.

be treated with a degree of scepticism. But Jackie Baillie is

:21:42.:21:46.

absolutely right. We passed a budget in this parliament a couple of weeks

:21:47.:21:50.

back with ?500 million of cuts for local authorities. Had we had to

:21:51.:21:55.

contend with the sort of Blackhall in the middle of our finances

:21:56.:21:59.

presented through these figures, those decisions for local

:22:00.:22:01.

authorities up and down the country would have been considerably worse.

:22:02.:22:08.

Annabel Goldie will stop body make of these Figures? I'm not alone in

:22:09.:22:19.

breathing a sigh of relief at Scotland rejected to vote for

:22:20.:22:22.

independence. I remember taking part in debates before the referendum and

:22:23.:22:27.

I remember saying that I thought the illustration offered by the SNP

:22:28.:22:34.

about that first year of an independent Scotland's finances were

:22:35.:22:36.

grossly overestimated revenues and dangerously ambitious at minimising

:22:37.:22:40.

expenditure. And the chickens have come home to roost. What we have to

:22:41.:22:45.

accept is that Scotland has a deficit of about ?15 billion at the

:22:46.:22:50.

moment. In terms of our GDP, that is about 10% of our GDP. The rest of

:22:51.:23:00.

the UK, it is 4.9% of GDP deficit. What it makes clear is that when we

:23:01.:23:04.

said in challenging economic times there is strength in the partnership

:23:05.:23:08.

of the United Kingdom, that is being read large and reaffirmed and

:23:09.:23:13.

becoming clear for all to see. People are heaving a sigh of relief

:23:14.:23:16.

that they did not fall for that prospect as was put before us back

:23:17.:23:23.

in 2014. You mentioned chickens, you're leading the debate in

:23:24.:23:28.

agriculture. Listen to Alex Ferguson there, OK, a computer has gone

:23:29.:23:31.

wrong, why is that the fault of the Government? Government IT systems,

:23:32.:23:39.

whether run by Tories of our Scottish Nationalist or labour are

:23:40.:23:45.

with the disaster. -- are always a disaster. It is twofold. Firstly,

:23:46.:23:52.

yes, computer systems may play up, but you have to have available a

:23:53.:23:57.

reserve plan. In the second aspect is, we are talking about people who

:23:58.:24:00.

in the main are not wealthy, not affluent. We are talking about

:24:01.:24:04.

farmers struggling to make ends meet. I understand that, but the

:24:05.:24:10.

point is that Government IT systems are notorious, it is a bit rich to

:24:11.:24:13.

say it is the fault of the SNP Government. As you know that having

:24:14.:24:18.

NHS IT systems in England have gone disastrously wrong. Yes, but if you

:24:19.:24:24.

let makes when the final part of my point, we're dealing with what I

:24:25.:24:27.

might call a client caught out there. -- a client caught. They have

:24:28.:24:37.

been expending money on feet, on bedding, other forms of agricultural

:24:38.:24:41.

activity. They need money to comment. The Scottish Government

:24:42.:24:45.

should have, the moment it realised the system was going off the rails,

:24:46.:24:48.

they should have stepped in with a workable alternative to minimise the

:24:49.:24:52.

financial worry and difficulty for our farmers, and they did not do

:24:53.:24:57.

that. If we can get by ground to Stewart Maxwell, would you like to

:24:58.:25:04.

answer that point? You should have acted earlier. Let's put it in

:25:05.:25:10.

perspective. Payments have to be owned by the end of June. Over half

:25:11.:25:14.

of farmers and crofters have had payments, and the governed as a

:25:15.:25:19.

poster will be a ?200 million package of advance payments for

:25:20.:25:21.

those who have not yet received their payments by the end of March.

:25:22.:25:26.

The garment has stepped in. It is making sure our agricultural sector

:25:27.:25:32.

is protected. The fact is more than half of already received payments,

:25:33.:25:36.

and those who have not will be able to access this ?200 million of

:25:37.:25:42.

advance payments. The Government is doing the right thing and protecting

:25:43.:25:48.

the agricultural sector. Liam McArthur, what is wrong with what

:25:49.:25:52.

Stewart has set? There might be delayed, but these things happen. I

:25:53.:25:59.

will not hold Stewart Maxwell responsible for this, but the

:26:00.:26:02.

difficulty is it is at least three or four much months late in

:26:03.:26:06.

happening. People have been told since last summer that everything

:26:07.:26:10.

would be OK, payments would go out in December and most would have the

:26:11.:26:14.

appearance by the end of January. Nobody saw how that would be

:26:15.:26:16.

possible with an IT system showing signs of fragility from the get go.

:26:17.:26:26.

Annabel is right. With no plan B, in relation to payments out the border

:26:27.:26:30.

there was, meaning that farmers south of the border had been

:26:31.:26:32.

receiving payments in a timely fashion. Richard was too busy

:26:33.:26:38.

criticising poetical opponents and farmers for throwing bricks before

:26:39.:26:44.

he finally realised this was utterly unsustainable, that rural economies

:26:45.:26:47.

were being starved of invaluable funding. ?300 million of funding.

:26:48.:26:56.

Jackie Baillie, I can see that it is your job to oppose, that this is

:26:57.:26:59.

almost normal with Government IT systems. It has happened in the NHS.

:27:00.:27:06.

Balmer care, the date went online, did not work because the IT systems

:27:07.:27:10.

did not work. It seems to happen with Government. --. ObamaCare. The

:27:11.:27:23.

issue is, Government should anticipate this. Just as you are

:27:24.:27:28.

describing failures in IT systems, they should have had and the' a

:27:29.:27:37.

back-up. Every time it was raised in the Chamber, we were reassured that

:27:38.:27:41.

the Government was on the case, now we find months later they have not

:27:42.:27:44.

been, and it had been pushed into doing something because we are

:27:45.:27:48.

approaching an election. I think farmers deserve much better than

:27:49.:27:49.

that. Back to the chamber now,

:27:50.:27:51.

where the Conservatives have been calling for an independent inquiry

:27:52.:27:54.

into problems with payments of the Common Agricultural

:27:55.:27:56.

Policy fund to farmers. Richard Lochhead, the Rural Affairs

:27:57.:27:59.

Secretary is responding now Her decisions here in Scotland,

:28:00.:28:14.

supported by this Parliament, added more complexity on top of all that.

:28:15.:28:19.

The timescale forgetting those decisions and lamented was very

:28:20.:28:24.

tight indeed. For the first pillar of policy, Derek payments, the EE

:28:25.:28:30.

you did not adopt systems before the scheme is due to start, and the

:28:31.:28:34.

detailed rules were later than that. For the second pillar, the situation

:28:35.:28:38.

is even worse. It should have started on the 1st of January 20 14.

:28:39.:28:42.

Europe had not set out all the rules by then. It is only because of

:28:43.:28:46.

transition arrangements which the Scottish Government fought for that

:28:47.:28:50.

we avoided a disastrous gap between programmes. In light of this

:28:51.:28:55.

timescale we were clear with stakeholders that extra policy

:28:56.:28:59.

details that they were asking for, and in some cases insisting upon,

:29:00.:29:04.

would inevitably affect payments to some degree. And at least in the

:29:05.:29:10.

first year. In the first year we have a new system invented for the

:29:11.:29:15.

first time, and many one-off tasks to undertake. We knew undertaking

:29:16.:29:21.

the timescale was a tall order, but we were determined and I said this

:29:22.:29:25.

at the time, to get payments out as early as possible within the

:29:26.:29:27.

seven-month payment timetable window that Europe lays down. We all knew

:29:28.:29:34.

the risks, something the industry itself acknowledges, and we all

:29:35.:29:42.

agreed the risks were worth taking. In light of his point about the

:29:43.:29:45.

seven-month payment timetable. Will he confirm today that every crofting

:29:46.:29:50.

former across Scotland will receive their full CAP payment before the

:29:51.:29:57.

30th of June timetable? Clearly that is absolutely our determination

:29:58.:29:59.

because you want to avoid fines from liver, and if we do not have 95%

:30:00.:30:04.

payments paid we are subject to fines. -- avoid fines from Europe.

:30:05.:30:09.

We will make every effort to avoid that. In terms of the risks worth

:30:10.:30:15.

taking. We agree these risks were worth taking, but having said that,

:30:16.:30:20.

I completely understand the difficult position farmers and

:30:21.:30:23.

crofters find themselves in due to the poor prices and extreme weather

:30:24.:30:26.

we have experienced in recent months. I said last year that while

:30:27.:30:31.

we do have it impossible to get payments out as soon as possible,

:30:32.:30:35.

this was not a normal year and farmers should be prepared for that.

:30:36.:30:38.

I'll discuss these issues with the banks briefly. Does he think that

:30:39.:30:44.

having a better weather and better prices the shambles of the IT system

:30:45.:30:51.

would be more acceptable? Order! If you speak to any farmer and crofter

:30:52.:30:55.

crosscut and you will tell them they are serious issues and you may find

:30:56.:30:58.

it a laughing matter, but there are many businesses suffering right now

:30:59.:31:02.

because of these issues. We happen working tirelessly. We started

:31:03.:31:09.

making first instalment in December. By now we have in making payments to

:31:10.:31:14.

over 10,500 farmers and crofters in Scotland, worth 85% of their total

:31:15.:31:17.

payments complete with initial target of at least 70%. That is just

:31:18.:31:24.

around 59% farmers and crofters have been paid as of today. But we have

:31:25.:31:30.

not been progressing as anticipated. As I have said many times, this is

:31:31.:31:35.

deeply disappointing. Where we are at the moment is not good enough,

:31:36.:31:38.

and for that I did apologise to the industry. By the IT system is

:31:39.:31:42.

working, but not anywhere near as quickly as we all want. And I fully

:31:43.:31:47.

accept that. Under the EE rules, we have to complete detailed checks and

:31:48.:31:51.

every claim before we can authorise payments, and it is only after

:31:52.:31:54.

payments are made that we're reimbursed by the European Union.

:31:55.:31:59.

The IT system has to validate each and every claim against 400,000

:32:00.:32:07.

fields, and over 500 EU rules. Just think of that for a second. Every

:32:08.:32:12.

claim, 400,000 fields, over 500 EU rules. Officials are constantly

:32:13.:32:18.

having to improve the IHT we are using, and that Europe says we have

:32:19.:32:25.

to use to speed up cases. We have drafted extra staff into offices,

:32:26.:32:28.

and our teams up and working day and night. As I said before and say

:32:29.:32:34.

again today, Ministers believe we have to learn lessons. A new report

:32:35.:32:41.

will be produced in due course, and will support any subsequent enquiry

:32:42.:32:44.

in the future, but clearly that is a matter for the next Parliament as

:32:45.:32:49.

the NFC West president said himself quite rightly this morning.

:32:50.:32:59.

Getting Scotland divided into three payment regions has been a massive

:33:00.:33:08.

challenge. It was a problem in England with the last cap reform

:33:09.:33:11.

when it went disastrously wrong for them. I am told at this stage they

:33:12.:33:17.

are paid less than 4% of their businesses, less than 4% of their

:33:18.:33:21.

businesses. We are going through reforms they went through in 2005

:33:22.:33:25.

plus another set of reforms on top of that. Wales this time, could not

:33:26.:33:33.

find a model at all so they abandon the idea. In Scotland, many key

:33:34.:33:37.

players in the industry were insistent that there had to be three

:33:38.:33:40.

regions are not the two that the Scottish Government originally

:33:41.:33:41.

consulted upon. The Social Justice Secretary Alex

:33:42.:33:43.

Neil says the Scottish Government remains committed to ending gender

:33:44.:33:45.

inequality in Scotland, Yesterday - on International Women's

:33:46.:33:47.

Day - he was asked by fellow SNP MSP Christina McKelvie what ministers

:33:48.:33:52.

were doing to ensure women were properly represented in leading

:33:53.:33:54.

roles in the private As the member knows, in terms of

:33:55.:34:10.

public and private fund sector, we're doing everything we can to

:34:11.:34:17.

encourage gender balance and of course 50-50 by 2020 is a key part

:34:18.:34:20.

of the Government's strategy. Although B did not have the

:34:21.:34:24.

legislative power to enforce private sector organisations to engage in

:34:25.:34:31.

50-50, as a major user of private services, we are using whatever

:34:32.:34:34.

influence we can to try to encourage companies to do it and then reap the

:34:35.:34:43.

benefits of having 50-50 by 2020. I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary will

:34:44.:34:47.

agree with me not just about goals in public and private sectors but

:34:48.:34:51.

one of the main issues is still gender inequality pay gap and I

:34:52.:34:55.

wonder if he could give us an update that the Scottish Government has

:34:56.:35:00.

taken to close the gender pay gap. In the public sector, the main area

:35:01.:35:05.

is in relation to equal pay and local authorities and there are

:35:06.:35:09.

still 45 local authorities in Scotland who have not finally

:35:10.:35:15.

settled their claims. -- for or five. It is the Cabinet Secretary's

:35:16.:35:20.

responsibility to encourage them to complete the settlement of these

:35:21.:35:23.

claims as as soon as possible because I know in North Lanarkshire

:35:24.:35:26.

alone for example billable 4000 people, mainly women, is still

:35:27.:35:34.

outstanding and I think the time it has taken since the original equal

:35:35.:35:39.

pay act was passed and since the existing negotiations were held

:35:40.:35:43.

about 12 or 15 years ago, that there is no excuse now for any outstanding

:35:44.:35:47.

claims still to be settled in this day and age. I'm sure the Cabinet

:35:48.:35:55.

Secretary is as shocked as I am by the University College union's

:35:56.:35:59.

report highlighting the gender pay gap in their -- our colleges and

:36:00.:36:06.

universities. The worst one is the University of Highlands and Islands

:36:07.:36:10.

which shows male lecturers are paid ?18,000 more than their female

:36:11.:36:21.

equivalents. This is unacceptable in a publicly funded institution. What

:36:22.:36:24.

is the Cabinet Secretary going to do about it? Throughout the public

:36:25.:36:30.

sector, we want to see equal pay implemented including local

:36:31.:36:32.

authority sectors but also in the academic sector, both universities

:36:33.:36:38.

and colleges as well and what we will do is everything in our power

:36:39.:36:42.

to try and encourage and ensure that those funded through the public

:36:43.:36:46.

sector and taxpayer actually fulfil a requirement of equal pay for equal

:36:47.:36:47.

work. Back to the discussion about the

:36:48.:37:02.

figures. Let say we accept what Stewart Maxwell was saying about oil

:37:03.:37:08.

being a bonus, this idea that should Scotland vote to stay in the EU if

:37:09.:37:12.

Britain votes to leave and will have another independence referendum,

:37:13.:37:15.

this is going to become much more current again, isn't it, because we

:37:16.:37:19.

would need to have projections for what the real situations would be in

:37:20.:37:27.

a independent Scotland now. That is where people misjudge the link

:37:28.:37:30.

between the European referendum and a second independence referendum

:37:31.:37:33.

because the link is only present if the polling significantly changes in

:37:34.:37:40.

favour of a Yes vote here. It would be based on the currency issue,

:37:41.:37:44.

which is much more complicated now. Do we want to attach it to the pound

:37:45.:37:48.

if it is out of the EU? I don't think you could do that. Would we

:37:49.:37:53.

have to go into the year now if we were entering the youth from a point

:37:54.:37:58.

of being outside? But you are correct, I think we go from the

:37:59.:38:01.

point where the fiscal circumstances are vastly different in a second

:38:02.:38:05.

independence referendum campaign than they were in the first one so I

:38:06.:38:09.

think it is not quite as simple as just thinking pulling out of the EU

:38:10.:38:14.

means an independence referendum, it is a whole new set of circumstances

:38:15.:38:19.

to base judgments on. But if there's going to be a referendum or even a

:38:20.:38:23.

campaign for one on independence, shouldn't these things be discussed

:38:24.:38:27.

right now? What currency would Scotland be part of? What would the

:38:28.:38:32.

public think? How would the finance the deficit that has grown since the

:38:33.:38:38.

last one? The SNP knows these issues are the reasons that they lost.

:38:39.:38:42.

Fundamentally, that is why they lost the first one. You would think they

:38:43.:38:45.

would be discussing about now. My money as they're not discussing it

:38:46.:38:49.

because they don't think they will be holding a independence referendum

:38:50.:38:54.

any time soon. Whichever way people vote, I don't think it is on the

:38:55.:38:58.

Scottish Government or Nicola Sturgeon's radar to push for a

:38:59.:39:01.

second independence referendum soon which is going to cause internal

:39:02.:39:06.

problems in the party. I remember when Ross Finnie was agricultural

:39:07.:39:11.

minister and it was a big row about something in the water in the hills

:39:12.:39:17.

and he said to me after a programme, I supposed to go up and take samples

:39:18.:39:21.

every night or it's my fault? There is a bit of that this computer

:39:22.:39:30.

thing. Is he meant to get a Windows 10 manual and work out what is going

:39:31.:39:37.

on? IG solutions and Government don't work very well. -- IT. Any

:39:38.:39:47.

time something goes wrong with the Scottish Government, the opposition

:39:48.:39:52.

have to leap on it. I don't think it will be a lingering issue. They have

:39:53.:39:57.

to pursue the companies who are doing it.

:39:58.:39:58.

And now to Prime Ministers Questions.

:39:59.:40:03.

The Labour leader attacked David Cameron for his government's

:40:04.:40:05.

But the Prime Minister defended it, saying there were 480,000,

:40:06.:40:09.

fewer children living in workless households,

:40:10.:40:12.

because of his party's success with growing the economy.

:40:13.:40:14.

Mr Cameron said this was evidence of them tackling the problem.

:40:15.:40:23.

If there is more money is available to be spent on children's services,

:40:24.:40:29.

why are there another 500,000 children living in poverty because

:40:30.:40:33.

of the policies of this Government? If we really do have the strong

:40:34.:40:37.

economy that the Prime Minister claims, then why did the Chancellor

:40:38.:40:43.

warned last week, I quote, we may need to make further reductions. Who

:40:44.:40:48.

will these reductions follow on, the disabled? Pensioners? Women? Will he

:40:49.:40:56.

rule out attacking those groups? He will see the budget next week when

:40:57.:41:03.

the Chancellor who has an excellent record of stealing the nation's

:41:04.:41:06.

economy will stand up to give them but the gentleman just made some

:41:07.:41:12.

remarks about child poverty. Since 2010, there are 680,000 fewer

:41:13.:41:16.

workless households. Think about what that means. 680,000 households

:41:17.:41:22.

where someone is bringing home a wage, putting food on the table and

:41:23.:41:29.

paying less taxes. There are 40,000 fewer members were no member has

:41:30.:41:34.

ever worked -- fewer houses and 480,000 children fewer living in

:41:35.:41:42.

poverty households. This is about having a growing economy, increased

:41:43.:41:47.

childcare, things never delivered by Labour. The refugee crisis is the

:41:48.:41:53.

biggest crisis across Europe. As the Prime Minister ashamed that in a UK

:41:54.:42:00.

Government programme, trafficking victims were locked up without food

:42:01.:42:03.

and asylum seeking children were forced to sleep on concrete floors

:42:04.:42:09.

that patients with diarrhoea were denied access to showers and the

:42:10.:42:16.

woman was beaten at a detention centre. As the Prime Minister

:42:17.:42:22.

ashamed of this? I will look at the points he makes. I would save our

:42:23.:42:26.

asylum system is fair and Britain through the ages has given people

:42:27.:42:29.

asylum from torture and persecution. When it comes to the issue of

:42:30.:42:35.

resettling Syrian refugees, it was instructed at this week's European

:42:36.:42:39.

Council with the chart showing how many countries have actually settled

:42:40.:42:43.

Syrian refugees, Britain has done better than any other country except

:42:44.:42:49.

for Germany. 76% of the cost of a bottle of whiskey is taxed. Last

:42:50.:42:54.

year, the Government's 2% cut on duty increased revenue to the

:42:55.:42:58.

Treasury by ?102 million. Will he accept that one of our products is

:42:59.:43:02.

taxed too much and body join me and the Scotch Whisky Association and

:43:03.:43:08.

calling for a further 2% reduction? The Chancellor and I have

:43:09.:43:11.

consistently backed Scottish whiskey and it's vital industry but let me

:43:12.:43:17.

say this to him, on the day that the profit and loss account comes out

:43:18.:43:21.

for Scotland, you can see there is a ?15 billion gap that Scotland would

:43:22.:43:27.

face if it was outside the United Kingdom. I dread to think what

:43:28.:43:34.

taxation would have to be levied not just on whiskey, but petrol, work,

:43:35.:43:39.

income, Holmes. That's the prospect of life outside the native kingdom.

:43:40.:43:43.

That's why I'm so glad we voted to stay together. On Sunday we

:43:44.:43:48.

celebrated Mother's Day and yesterday, International Women's

:43:49.:43:51.

Day, and members working to celebrate women on both occasions.

:43:52.:43:55.

Why then has this Government introduced cuts to public services,

:43:56.:44:01.

child benefit and reductions in work-related benefits that have left

:44:02.:44:08.

mothers ?13 billion worse off? The one thing I share with the

:44:09.:44:11.

honourable lady is it was right to celebrate Mother's Day. I spent it

:44:12.:44:16.

with my mother but I think it said enough about her! It was a privilege

:44:17.:44:23.

to welcome to number ten is inspirational women from all walks

:44:24.:44:25.

of life to Mark International Women's Day I'm not saying the

:44:26.:44:31.

Government has solved all of these problems but we have more women in

:44:32.:44:36.

work, higher pay, lower taxes, better child care and better

:44:37.:44:39.

pensions and when it comes to the thing that Government needs to do,

:44:40.:44:45.

we're appointing more women to senior positions, public

:44:46.:44:47.

appointments. The honour system is now reflecting women. The pay gap is

:44:48.:44:50.

now at its lowest published level. Our Westminster correspondent

:44:51.:44:53.

David Porter has been joined It's the type of tropical heat which

:44:54.:45:11.

is wet and precipitates. It is Wednesday so we're going to talk

:45:12.:45:14.

about things that happened on Sunday, namely the Sunday trading

:45:15.:45:17.

Bill which is going for Commons this afternoon. Joining me are my guests,

:45:18.:45:27.

Lord Percy for the Liberal Democrats, Conservatives, the SNP.

:45:28.:45:36.

What is the SNP doing deciding what will be Westminster policy on an

:45:37.:45:42.

issue that doesn't affect Scotland? It does affect Scotland in terms of

:45:43.:45:47.

those boys in the retail sector, many of whom are on low pay and

:45:48.:45:50.

enjoy a Sunday premium for working on a Sunday and despite seeking

:45:51.:45:55.

assurances that will not be accorded, the Government has not

:45:56.:45:58.

been prepared to either devolve legislation to make sure that is set

:45:59.:46:01.

in statute or to put it on the face of its bill to we are protecting

:46:02.:46:06.

about 33% of retail workers who will be affected if this goes through.

:46:07.:46:10.

But not everyone in Scotland who works on a Sunday gets a premium.

:46:11.:46:18.

Many of them don't get that premium. This legislation would devolve power

:46:19.:46:22.

to local authorities in England and Wales. I repeat the question, why is

:46:23.:46:26.

the Scottish National Party getting involved? Because it could see about

:46:27.:46:31.

33% of people working in the retail sector lose money. We said we would

:46:32.:46:35.

come here and stand up for those in our society that need support.

:46:36.:46:38.

That's what we're doing. I don't see any inherent hypocrisy around that.

:46:39.:46:43.

If the Government was not recognising that, we could have done

:46:44.:46:48.

something. We ask for devolution, they rejected it. This is an issue

:46:49.:46:51.

of their own making. The issue is not about the SNP footing against

:46:52.:46:54.

this, it is about Conservatives voting against it. -- voting. Do you

:46:55.:47:02.

buy that argument, that if you can get your own MPs onside whatever the

:47:03.:47:08.

SNP did would be irrelevant? I don't think anyone buys this argument.

:47:09.:47:13.

This is just rank hypocrisy of the SNP. They just want a key grievance

:47:14.:47:16.

year between the people of England and Wales and the people of

:47:17.:47:20.

Scotland. They have a lack of Sunday trading laws in Scotland but are

:47:21.:47:23.

poking their nose into an England and Wales matter only, simply to

:47:24.:47:27.

cause grievance. There is no other reason. The pretence of the SNP that

:47:28.:47:33.

this is somehow protecting workers has just been laid bare by yourself,

:47:34.:47:38.

by your own survey, by suggesting that very few people in Scotland

:47:39.:47:42.

actually get this premium so it is complete nonsense. This is the SNP

:47:43.:47:48.

playing games, creating grievance where they shouldn't be. What they

:47:49.:47:52.

should be really -- what we should really be asking ourselves is why is

:47:53.:47:58.

there a ?15 billion deficit in Scotland for 2014, 2015? That is why

:47:59.:48:04.

the -- what they should be answering, why the people of

:48:05.:48:09.

Scotland have been let down. What if your ministers had been more

:48:10.:48:13.

accommodating with your own MPs, but you wouldn't have got into this? We

:48:14.:48:19.

are a broad church and I understand there may 20 Conservative MPs who

:48:20.:48:22.

might not support the Government. I will be supporting the Government

:48:23.:48:27.

but let's focus on at the issue is, the SNP don't want English words for

:48:28.:48:30.

English laws, they want to book their nose into areas that don't

:48:31.:48:33.

concern them and have breached their own promise to the Scottish people.

:48:34.:48:37.

They promised they would not interfere on a matter of principle

:48:38.:48:41.

on England and Wales matters only. In this case, even if it concerns

:48:42.:48:47.

the matter of paint -- colour of paint, they will pull their nose in.

:48:48.:48:51.

Are you happy this is common cause with the SNP when this does not

:48:52.:48:54.

affect Scotland as directly as many people would think would be an issue

:48:55.:49:01.

to campaign on? It is right to say that Sunday trading in Scotland is

:49:02.:49:05.

deregulated, it has been since 1994, but don't have to listen to us with

:49:06.:49:09.

regards to the effect of Scottish workers, listen to the trade union

:49:10.:49:13.

who have been getting representations from tens of

:49:14.:49:16.

thousands of their own members saying they will lose terms and

:49:17.:49:19.

conditions for working on a Sunday service is not a political thing but

:49:20.:49:23.

the two things that from this, the Conservatives on a majority so they

:49:24.:49:27.

cannot persuade their own backbenchers to vote for this, they

:49:28.:49:32.

won't get any legislation through. The SNP have try to do a deal with

:49:33.:49:37.

the Conservatives on this for the last few months. Angus Robertson

:49:38.:49:39.

said she would absolutely not vote for this legislation. It took them

:49:40.:49:43.

until late last night to see that they wouldn't you can draw from that

:49:44.:49:47.

that they're willing to protect English foxes when they said they

:49:48.:49:51.

would not board for fox hunting changes in England. They were not

:49:52.:49:56.

willing to protect shop workers. I think they have serious questions to

:49:57.:49:59.

answer about the games they are playing. You return from Canada

:50:00.:50:06.

early to take part in the sport. Sunday trading is enormous and

:50:07.:50:11.

Canada, isn't it? It depends what province you're in, I think, but it

:50:12.:50:19.

is a matter of principle here. In my constituency, Scottish workers in

:50:20.:50:22.

Asda and Tesco and other big shops might lose their Sunday premium.

:50:23.:50:28.

Asda have said they will lose its all I am standing up for shop

:50:29.:50:31.

workers. I only wish the Conservatives and SNP would have

:50:32.:50:36.

done the same. As far as the Liberal Democrats are concerned, that you

:50:37.:50:41.

have worries about Scottish workers if this becomes a UK wide that

:50:42.:50:45.

people will work for longer -- shop for longer on Sunday, they will lose

:50:46.:50:52.

payments? Someone who worked across the borders, it will not be affected

:50:53.:50:59.

by what Callan says, so constitutionally he is wrong on the

:51:00.:51:03.

basis of contractual requirements but it goes to a deeper issue. I

:51:04.:51:09.

voted on Sunday trading in the Scottish Parliament and at no stage

:51:10.:51:13.

did the SNP make any of those arguments there. I expect Ian is

:51:14.:51:17.

right, they started this process of Government with one possession and

:51:18.:51:22.

changed it when they saw another political opportunity but that is

:51:23.:51:27.

their possession, they said they would not vote on English issues,

:51:28.:51:31.

they do wish to raise grievance. My only problem is that at the moment

:51:32.:51:37.

it is shop workers they claim to defend. They didn't stab at this

:51:38.:51:42.

position when they knew that the facts then, and they didn't start

:51:43.:51:45.

when I was watching on this in the Scottish parliament so the rank

:51:46.:51:49.

hypocrisy from them is shameful. Sometimes an opposition party's duty

:51:50.:51:57.

is to oppose. Opposition to whom? On what basis of this being done? Shop

:51:58.:52:02.

workers would be dropped like a hot stone if it did not suit their

:52:03.:52:06.

constitutional purpose. What about public sector workers? What about

:52:07.:52:11.

binmen and the lorry drivers? What about nurses? The SNP are saying

:52:12.:52:19.

they want differentials. The cool about it -- they crow. How much are

:52:20.:52:32.

you worried this as seen on the wrong side of your argument? People

:52:33.:52:38.

would say Dewar propping up the Tories at Westminster. That wouldn't

:52:39.:52:48.

play well in the Holyrood election. The Tories are going to undermine

:52:49.:52:54.

people's pay and we have three political parties all taking the

:52:55.:52:58.

opportunity to attack the SNP. No one has a problem with anyone else

:52:59.:53:01.

watching honestly the Northern Irish MPs. We are taking our time, we have

:53:02.:53:08.

established, talked with retailers, talked with the Government to see if

:53:09.:53:11.

they would make concessions to allay the fears and we have done that and

:53:12.:53:16.

the Government has refused to meet what really quite reasonable

:53:17.:53:19.

suggestions from the SNP at around this. If anyone is to blame for

:53:20.:53:24.

this, it is the Government. We have tried to protect Scottish workers

:53:25.:53:27.

and we have failed because the Government stopped us. How damaging

:53:28.:53:32.

be if the Government was defeated on this this afternoon? It is right

:53:33.:53:39.

that the viewers she once and for all the rank hypocrisy of the SNP.

:53:40.:53:43.

This is a game that the SNP are playing. This is not the position of

:53:44.:53:50.

the SNP, the position of the SNP is to play games. They want to create

:53:51.:53:54.

grievance where there is none. The ad in charge of Scotland, there is a

:53:55.:54:03.

?15 billion deficit for 2014, to -- 2015. That is where they should be

:54:04.:54:07.

focusing. Did you think you will win this afternoon? It looks like there

:54:08.:54:12.

is a significant rebellion on the Conservative backbenchers. There are

:54:13.:54:16.

a lot of people in England and Wales who do not want this to go through.

:54:17.:54:21.

But it is absolutely right. The SNP tonight after the general election

:54:22.:54:23.

and said they supported English word for English laws and that they would

:54:24.:54:28.

vote to bring down fox hunting changes that but will make

:54:29.:54:31.

equalising with Scotland. It is rank hypocrisy and they are playing with

:54:32.:54:36.

shop workers. Final answer from you, is this going to put the matter to

:54:37.:54:42.

that one way or another? No, because if the SNP carry on this position it

:54:43.:54:46.

will be for all workers but it is unclear if it will apply to workers

:54:47.:54:52.

across all sectors. They have said no, so it is purely political. Thank

:54:53.:54:59.

you. Somehow I think we can probably carry on until Sunday about talking

:55:00.:55:03.

about this issue but we can't. Back to you in the studio.

:55:04.:55:10.

What exactly is the Labour position on this? They're against it because

:55:11.:55:22.

what? They're against it generally speaking, it would appear. Iain

:55:23.:55:32.

Murray is going to vote obviously. It is not the position Labour are

:55:33.:55:36.

taking because he is voting on it. Some of them have at times. Some

:55:37.:55:41.

would argue it is in their interest not to alert because they reject the

:55:42.:55:50.

premise. They simply reject the premise. I don't think all of them

:55:51.:56:01.

could. There are arguing it is not good for shop workers. Ian Murray

:56:02.:56:05.

outlined that Asda have said shop workers in Scotland could lose out

:56:06.:56:08.

as a result of this. I don't think there is any certainty about this. I

:56:09.:56:12.

think he's arguing that shop workers and England could as well because

:56:13.:56:17.

they might be forced to do... They could be forced to work Sundays,

:56:18.:56:25.

yes. I think he's arguing to a degree on a Scottish bases. I think

:56:26.:56:29.

he is seeing his constituents in Edinburgh could also lose out

:56:30.:56:32.

because if they work in a big store, they may take a duty position. If

:56:33.:56:38.

the Government losers, is it an important decision? In the grand

:56:39.:56:43.

scheme of things I don't think it is going to be something we will

:56:44.:56:46.

remember. It is less about the issue and what about the fact the SNP are

:56:47.:56:52.

voting on it. When we look at it as journalists and political

:56:53.:56:54.

commentators, what we will remember is not the issue but the fact the

:56:55.:56:58.

SNP voted on it is another interesting constitutional matter.

:56:59.:57:02.

It's maybe not true if you're working in M True but what the

:57:03.:57:11.

opposition politicians have said is that the Tories have a majority so

:57:12.:57:15.

if they could quell in a billion on their own backbenchers they could

:57:16.:57:17.

push this through anyway so that is a valid point. There is opposition

:57:18.:57:22.

to this that is not about sticking up shop workers. Stuff that was

:57:23.:57:29.

abandoned in Scotland as Iain Murray said in 1984. Mainly opposition from

:57:30.:57:37.

Tory MPs who are going to vote against the Government on it for

:57:38.:57:42.

religious reasons. It looks like it is not going to go through and they

:57:43.:57:46.

will have to wait until we have a more solid majority to return to.

:57:47.:57:47.

You can keep up with the latest debates from Holyrood on the BBC's

:57:48.:57:51.

I'll be back this weekend on BBC One with Sunday Politics.

:57:52.:57:56.

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