Browse content similar to 09/03/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Good afternoon and welcome to Politics Scotland. | :00:18. | :00:19. | |
Coming up on the programme: official figures reveal the impact | :00:20. | :00:22. | |
the sharp decline in the North Sea oil sector, | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
The Government's promised to speed up payments to farmers hit | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
by delays, but the Conservatives are calling for an inquiry. | :00:32. | :00:33. | |
And here at Westminster, will the SNP scupper plans by the UK | :00:34. | :00:40. | |
Government to relax the rules on Sunday trading in England | :00:41. | :00:42. | |
Newly published figures show the impact on Scotland's economy | :00:43. | :00:50. | |
The slump in the oil price means Scotland's overall tax take per head | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
lags behind the UK for the first time since the start of the 1980s. | :00:55. | :00:59. | |
Ministers insist Scotland's economy remains fundamentally strong, | :01:00. | :01:01. | |
only outpaced by London and the south-east of England. | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
But opposition leaders say Scotland would have faced big cuts | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
in spending if Scots had opted for independence. | :01:11. | :01:11. | |
Our Political Editor Brian Taylor has this report. | :01:12. | :01:18. | |
These slump in prices and lower tax revenues, and has now worked through | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
to Scotland's balance sheet. We are talking here about 2014 slash 2015. | :01:25. | :01:31. | |
It is reckoned that Scotland's share of oil revenues was 1.8 alien | :01:32. | :01:37. | |
pounds. That is down from really ?4 billion in the previous year, a | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
reduction of this defies %. Scottish Ministers visit a high-tech site in | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
Edinburgh and stressed that Scotland's onshore economy is | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
growing, compensating for problems in the North Sea. They admit the | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
figures are challenging. There is no getting away from the fact that yes, | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
this is a difficult time for the oil and gas sector, and that is | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
reflected in the figures, but Scotland's economy is strong. And if | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
you look over the medium-term, that strength is obvious. If you look at | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
higher employment, higher product growth, that strength is obvious. | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
The growth in onshore revenues like Spain that of the UK. Scotland's | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
overall tax take her head, including oil, is fractionally lower than that | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
of the UK for the first time in 36 years. The oil revenue figures may | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
be worse in the current financial year. Critics say that means | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
Scotland would have been in big trouble if we had voted for | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
independence. We would have been facing huge cuts now if Scotland had | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
voted for independence. The deficit has doubled, it would have had a | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
huge impact on public services, cuts to schools, cuts to hospitals. And | :02:45. | :02:51. | |
each time of asking, the SNP misled the people about the scale of that | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
deficit. But Ministers say North Sea oil has sent a total of ?300 billion | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
to the Treasury without any oil fund being established in Scotland. They | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
have urged the Chancellor to assist the industry in the forthcoming | :03:06. | :03:06. | |
budget. And our Political Correspondent | :03:07. | :03:07. | |
Andrew Kerr is following the story Is this causing a stramash? It is, | :03:08. | :03:25. | |
in a way. In a way, it is a very dry document full of facts and figures | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
and percentages, but at the heart of it lie perhaps arguments and against | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
independence. It is a profit and loss account for Scotland. You had | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
the First Minister saying, things are quite bad and the North Sea at | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
the moment, but onshore the economy is performing quite strongly. But | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
when you look at it, there has been a 55 percentage decline in revenue | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
from Rossi oil and gas, perhaps showing the importance of that to | :03:55. | :04:01. | |
the Scottish economy. And of course the prounion parties, Labour, | :04:02. | :04:03. | |
Tories, the Lib Dems, they are saying that we have dodged a bullet | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
here when it comes to independence. If people had voted yes for | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
independence Scotland would have been becoming an independent country | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
in the next couple of weeks. So this dry document highlights the key | :04:18. | :04:19. | |
arguments behind the independence debate. There has been a stramash | :04:20. | :04:27. | |
year I suppose. There was talk there that we had been misled. You could | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
put another interpretation on it, obviously this is a difficult point | :04:32. | :04:34. | |
for the Scottish Government, but they could reasonably say, look, we | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
could not possibly have known that the oil prices were going to for | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
that much nobody else did either. Or they would have made a fortune. | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
Indeed. And the Scottish Government points to UK Government figures | :04:51. | :04:52. | |
looking ahead to the same period which should perhaps the same amount | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
of revenue coming in, and the Scottish Government would also point | :04:57. | :04:59. | |
out that the price of oil goes up and down, the north-east of Scotland | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
has benefited from that in the past, it has suffered the drops in the | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
late 1980s and early 1990s as well. But I think the key point here is | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
that perhaps there was too much emphasis placed on oil, although the | :05:16. | :05:18. | |
Scottish Government were saying at the time that oil was just a bonus. | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
It depends on your political point of view on that one. But I think it | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
is an interesting point that the parties here continue to argue. And | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
as Brian said in that piece, these figures do not take into account the | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
current financial year, which in 2015 was pretty devastating for the | :05:39. | :05:41. | |
North Sea oil industry, 2016 as well. We have seen a lot more job | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
losses. So when we get the next round of figures, these will be even | :05:46. | :05:51. | |
worse. Those glory days, we will be saying, when we get next year's | :05:52. | :05:53. | |
figures. And my guest this afternoon | :05:54. | :05:55. | |
is Andy Maciver, who was formerly Head of Communications | :05:56. | :05:57. | |
for the Scottish Conservatives This is difficult for the Scottish | :05:58. | :06:07. | |
Government. Very. A lot of the problem has been caused by the | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
amount of stock the bit in the oil price during the referendum debate. | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
They did not have to frame it quite like that. As you said," addicted | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
the price was going to come down quite as much, but the emphasis they | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
put on oil during the referendum debate is what has caused these | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
problems now. It was not just emphasis. They now say that they | :06:28. | :06:35. | |
always said oil was today bonus. But every single figure they produced to | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
forecast Scotland's budget on independence included oil at $113 | :06:39. | :06:45. | |
per barrel. And if they had created an economic case based on oil being | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
a bonus, it would been a much more sound campaign anyway. And they | :06:52. | :06:54. | |
could have that economic case for Scotland being independent without | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
oil. It is possible to do. There is another side to this, which the | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
Government has pointed out, if you look at revenues in Scotland by | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
capita, only London and the South-East and east of England are | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
ahead of Scotland. We are ahead of the UK average. That is a wholesale | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
transformation, I think, from the 1980s would have been average or | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
below. Absolutely. It does highlight that Scotland is actually a pretty | :07:21. | :07:23. | |
good shape. It highlights another problem which is that emphasis is | :07:24. | :07:26. | |
far too much on spending and not on raising. A lot of this is on how | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
much public spending would have needed to be cut if Scotland had an | :07:31. | :07:33. | |
independent, but if they were looking more through the looking | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
glass of reform and savings appear rather than always looking at | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
expenditure, they could have balanced these two things much more | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
effectively permitted. Andy, would be back with you later on. | :07:45. | :07:46. | |
Now to Westminster, where the SNP are set to side | :07:47. | :07:48. | |
with Labour and Conservative rebels, in blocking the Government's plan | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
to extend Sunday opening hours in England and Wales. | :07:52. | :07:53. | |
Our Westminster Correspondent David Porter joins us now. | :07:54. | :07:55. | |
It is becoming controversial because the SNP were not supposed to be | :07:56. | :08:07. | |
voting on matters which I'm sure most English MPs would consider have | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
nothing to do with Scotland. On the face of it it does seem rather | :08:11. | :08:17. | |
strange that the SNP is intervening on legislation which technically | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
just involves England and Wales, and that is to relax or liberalise | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
Sunday trading laws in England and Wales. At the moment shops in | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
Scotland are open for longer on Sunday than they are in England, in | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
England large stores can only open continuously for six hours. | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
Supermarkets and things open from 10am until 4pm. This legislation | :08:38. | :08:44. | |
would allow those laws to be liberalised, that is, to be relaxed. | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
The SNP says that at the moment workers in Scotland are paid a | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
premium, paid more for working on Sunday. They are worried that if the | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
liberalisation happens around the UK, and if in essence in other Wales | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
catch up with Scotland, depending on your point of view, or go down the | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
Scottish route, you will have a situation where in future companies | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
say, this is UK wide, so you do not need these premium payments in | :09:11. | :09:13. | |
Scotland. They are arguing that although they are in favour of | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
Sunday trading, they are seeking to try to protect Scottish workers. | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
Something else which is important in a Scottish political context, the | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
SNP have looked at this and thought about the Holyrood election | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
campaign. What would happen if they supported the UK Government or | :09:32. | :09:33. | |
abstained? Labour would then go after them saying, you are propping | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
up the Conservatives on this measure. That would not play well | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
amongst many in Scotland in the Holyrood election campaign. Thanks, | :09:42. | :09:48. | |
but do not go away, we will be back with you later on. Andy Maciver, | :09:49. | :09:55. | |
this is an odd one. You will vote against what we have in Scotland | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
because we're worried about... I understood something about wages? | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
Yes, if employers consider this to be a UK wide issue, then the premium | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
wages that Scottish workers are on a Sunday would no longer be there. If | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
you want to create a case for being able to vote on everything because | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
of the impact it has on Scotland, you could probably create that case | :10:19. | :10:21. | |
if you wanted, because it will always be some impact somewhere, | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
whether it is finance or some theoretical impact. But this is | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
stretching it quite far, I think, to vote on this. I think the impact is | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
very marginal, possibly zero, quite speculative. This thing that Alex | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
Salmond used to say, that he was quite happy not to vote on | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
English... That is the window publicly, is it? That has gone. That | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
has been replaced by politics and political imperative. David is | :10:47. | :10:49. | |
correct that this is a political move, no question whatsoever. | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
The Conservatives are leading the debate in the Holyrood chamber | :10:53. | :10:54. | |
today, focusing on the delayed payment of Common Agricultural | :10:55. | :10:57. | |
The EU subsidy is designed to act as a safety net for farmers | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
and crofters by supplementing their main business income. | :11:03. | :11:04. | |
And the money is allocated by the Scottish Government. | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
But the payments have been affected by major issues due to the IT system | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
Alex Fergusson, the conservative spokesperson for Rural Affairs | :11:11. | :11:24. | |
is on his feet, let's cross over to the chamber. | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
I hope this time the Cabinet Secretary can deliver. Yesterday's | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
announcement followed the recent trend of last-minute announcements | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
that a cynic might think was designed purely to deflect growing | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
criticism. First we had the announcement of a 20 billion | :11:43. | :11:49. | |
last-ditch loan fund, after a beating a promise to be tempestuous. | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
And last week after debate about the timing of payments, the Cabinet | :11:57. | :11:58. | |
secretary announced he would make national funds available to make | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
sure that these payments where the' sixes of a million, would be paid in | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
March as usual. And now the Cabinet Secretary has waved his magic wand | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
and found the money from national funds to deflect this growing crisis | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
once again. No wonder the still cared was able once again to smile | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
again in the Chamber, which was nice to see after weeks of growing and | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
justified criticism. And it is as well that his colleague Mr Swinney | :12:29. | :12:31. | |
appears to have such deep pockets when it is expedient to do so. | :12:32. | :12:39. | |
However, this opportune announcement may deflect immediate criticism but | :12:40. | :12:41. | |
it will not make the underlying problems disappear. And we need to | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
look at how we have arrived at this sorry state of affairs. That was | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
back in the 11th of June 2014 that the Cabinet secretary made the | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
announcement on how the new support system would operate in Scotland. | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
And it was in many ways a momentous announcement because it moved us | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
away from a support system based largely on productivity to one based | :13:04. | :13:10. | |
on area alone. Which in Scotland, which he defied % of land is | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
classified as less favoured, presents no small challenge. -- 85%. | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
And the broader shift away from support payments in the south and | :13:21. | :13:22. | |
east of the country towards the north and the West. It truly great | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
challenge indeed. And thanks to the eminently sensible decision of the | :13:29. | :13:31. | |
UK Government to negotiate Scotland's ability to design and | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
implement a CAP support system tailor-made to Scottish conditions, | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
the responsibility for that system they squarely with the Scottish | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
Government from day one. Later, if I may. How to best mitigate against | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
the most averaging impact of these reforms have been this a bit of | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
intense discussion, debate and consultation over many preceding | :13:54. | :13:56. | |
months, and they continued right up to the 59th minute of the 11th hour | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
as various sectors within the agricultural industry made their | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
case for special considerations. I recall meeting with the Cabinet | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
secretary to discuss the concerns of the beef breeding sector on the eve | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
of the announcement. Final decisions were being made at the very last | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
minute. The eventual outcome as detailed by the announcement in June | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
2014 was generally thought to be a genuine effort to please everyone. | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
As the Cabinet secretary himself did at the time, fitting square pegs | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
into round holes. On the problem of trying to please everyone, as I said | :14:33. | :14:35. | |
at the time, is that you can end up pleasing practically no one. That is | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
pretty much what seems to have happened when you look at where we | :14:40. | :14:42. | |
are today. Because despite yesterday's announcement, the whole | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
regime is in disarray. It is an unfortunate situation that remains | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
100% of the Scottish Government's meeting. I'm grateful to him for | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
giving way. I wonder if at this moment he would specify the bits of | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
the inference that were put in place by the Cabinet secretary that he | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
would have done differently? I am coming to that, because we do not | :15:09. | :15:11. | |
need to look any further than the new IT system that the Cabinet | :15:12. | :15:14. | |
secretary commissioned to operate the new regime to find out. And the | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
warnings were there for all to see from the moment the single | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
application form window for applications opened in March 20 15. | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
We now know that industry experts were issuing warnings about the | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
likely problems in mid-2014, but the Government had other priorities on | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
its mind at that particular time. From the outset, those trying to use | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
the online application system reported extreme difficulties, | :15:40. | :15:42. | |
describing it as unfit for purpose and totally flawed in many respects. | :15:43. | :15:44. | |
I vividly recall being taken through that process, and could only agree | :15:45. | :15:51. | |
with one person's frustrated assessment that would be far better | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
to revert to a paper-based application process, something I | :15:56. | :15:58. | |
would have considered doing, which is of course what later record. That | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
is exactly what the UK Government did. An action that has them much | :16:04. | :16:05. | |
derided by the Cabinet secretary, but which resulted in farmers south | :16:06. | :16:11. | |
of the border being furnished with paper forms preloaded with the | :16:12. | :16:14. | |
previous year's information, enabling both applications and | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
payments to be made on time. Furthermore, that delay allowed | :16:20. | :16:21. | |
technicians to get on with building a system which I believe is now fit | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
for purpose and ready to receive 2016 applications. That is a | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
sensible plan B, and it appears that the Scottish Government did not have | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
one. Every time the Cabinet secretary was challenged about these | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
problems, he repeated that the changes here in Scotland were really | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
complex, and the staff are working around the clock to overcome the | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
difficulties. And I'm sure they did, I do not doubt that. And yes, it was | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
a complex system, but I repeat that it was and still is a system | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
designed, in fermented and signed off by the Cabinet secretary alone. | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
The responsibility for both it and its values rest with him and him | :16:58. | :16:59. | |
alone. The Conservatives' Rural Affairs | :17:00. | :17:01. | |
spokesperson Alex Fergusson speaking And we'll be back to hear | :17:02. | :17:03. | |
from the Government in that debate Now I'm joined from | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
the Scottish Parliament's lobby by Stewart Maxwell from the SNP, | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
Labour's Jackie Baillie and the Liberal Democrats' | :17:14. | :17:15. | |
Liam McArthur. The figures that emerged today, can | :17:16. | :17:29. | |
I read from the White Paper that the Scottish Government produced during | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
the defendant 's referendum campaign? It said," by independents | :17:34. | :17:43. | |
in 2016/2017, Scotland's deficit is forecast to have fallen to 2.5% and | :17:44. | :17:49. | |
3.2% of GDP." Would you like to comment? If you're saying that every | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
single and it's got the estimate that while price is wrong, I would | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
agree with you. Certainly, we got it wrong. The First Minister has been | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
clear on that. But the UK Government, the Department of | :18:03. | :18:04. | |
energy, said it would be even higher. There is a world crisis in | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
terms of the oil industry, nobody is denying that. And of course it has | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
also hit here in Scotland. The fact remains that the underlying Scottish | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
economy is fundamentally strong. The problem with that argument is that | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
you now say, we only ever said oil was a bonus, the underlying economy | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
is strong. But as reflected in that quote I gave you, every single | :18:29. | :18:30. | |
forecast of Scotland's economy and fiscal situation that the SNP | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
produced during the referendum campaign included oil at $113 per | :18:36. | :18:43. | |
barrel. You did not say, here is our position without oil and user | :18:44. | :18:46. | |
position with oil, as in that quote I gave you, you included all the oil | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
money. I'm sorry, we made it very clear that oil was a bonus, and are | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
fundamentally the Scottish economy excluding oil was roughly in line | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
with the rest of the UK. But the fact is, the UK Prime Minister said | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
that if we voted no, that would be a ?200 billion oil bonanza. Perhaps he | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
should come and apologise on your programme. The fact is everybody got | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
this wrong in terms of estimates of oil price. It was a prediction, we | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
got it wrong and everybody else did, that is a fact. But the fundamental | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
position that the Scottish economy is fundamentally strong, we have | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
seen a ?6 billion growth in onshore revenues. The fact is it is a strong | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
economy and we should be pleased about that at the same time | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
recognising the difficulties. Jackie Baillie, it was an understandable | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
error. Quite simply the SNP misled the people of Scotland in advance of | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
the referendum. The figures published today tell us that not | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
only would I deficit have doubled, but we would have been facing ?15 | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
billion of cuts. In perspective, that is more than the entirety of | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
the health budget for Scotland. You say misled. They got it wrong. | :20:01. | :20:03. | |
Stewart Maxwell has accepted that. It is a bit much to say the misled | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
people. You did not know the oil price was going to crash anymore | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
than they did. I think everybody was saying that the instability of oil | :20:13. | :20:14. | |
prices is something that has featured in the past, there was | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
always a deficit because Scotland then and now Angeli spends more than | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
we raising revenue, so that was good to be a deficit. But the scale of | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
the deficit now is double what they imagined it would be. The | :20:29. | :20:31. | |
consequences of that for people would have been the closure of | :20:32. | :20:33. | |
hospitals and schools, devastating cuts. That is not nonsense. This | :20:34. | :20:40. | |
Government cut ?500 million from the budget. They are now talking about | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
cutting... They would have had to cut ?15 billion budget. Liam | :20:47. | :20:54. | |
McCarthy, can we see you? The other side of this, whether Scottish | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
Government has a point, is things have changed since the 1980s, | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
haven't they? Because actually revenues in Scotland per capita | :21:03. | :21:10. | |
good, both most areas of the UK apart from the South-East of | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
England. He suggested that have reaped been facing the prospect of | :21:16. | :21:18. | |
an independent Scotland in two weeks, the finances of the newly | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
independent nation would have been fairly ruinous. Whether or not it is | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
misled, what is evident from the figures today is that the Scottish | :21:28. | :21:35. | |
Government got this badly wrong. Anybody who assert that can predict | :21:36. | :21:38. | |
with great confidence for the oil price will be going forward needs to | :21:39. | :21:41. | |
be treated with a degree of scepticism. But Jackie Baillie is | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
absolutely right. We passed a budget in this parliament a couple of weeks | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
back with ?500 million of cuts for local authorities. Had we had to | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
contend with the sort of Blackhall in the middle of our finances | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
presented through these figures, those decisions for local | :22:00. | :22:01. | |
authorities up and down the country would have been considerably worse. | :22:02. | :22:08. | |
Annabel Goldie will stop body make of these Figures? I'm not alone in | :22:09. | :22:19. | |
breathing a sigh of relief at Scotland rejected to vote for | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
independence. I remember taking part in debates before the referendum and | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
I remember saying that I thought the illustration offered by the SNP | :22:28. | :22:34. | |
about that first year of an independent Scotland's finances were | :22:35. | :22:36. | |
grossly overestimated revenues and dangerously ambitious at minimising | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
expenditure. And the chickens have come home to roost. What we have to | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
accept is that Scotland has a deficit of about ?15 billion at the | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
moment. In terms of our GDP, that is about 10% of our GDP. The rest of | :22:51. | :23:00. | |
the UK, it is 4.9% of GDP deficit. What it makes clear is that when we | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
said in challenging economic times there is strength in the partnership | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
of the United Kingdom, that is being read large and reaffirmed and | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
becoming clear for all to see. People are heaving a sigh of relief | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
that they did not fall for that prospect as was put before us back | :23:17. | :23:23. | |
in 2014. You mentioned chickens, you're leading the debate in | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
agriculture. Listen to Alex Ferguson there, OK, a computer has gone | :23:29. | :23:31. | |
wrong, why is that the fault of the Government? Government IT systems, | :23:32. | :23:39. | |
whether run by Tories of our Scottish Nationalist or labour are | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
with the disaster. -- are always a disaster. It is twofold. Firstly, | :23:46. | :23:52. | |
yes, computer systems may play up, but you have to have available a | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
reserve plan. In the second aspect is, we are talking about people who | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
in the main are not wealthy, not affluent. We are talking about | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
farmers struggling to make ends meet. I understand that, but the | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
point is that Government IT systems are notorious, it is a bit rich to | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
say it is the fault of the SNP Government. As you know that having | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
NHS IT systems in England have gone disastrously wrong. Yes, but if you | :24:19. | :24:24. | |
let makes when the final part of my point, we're dealing with what I | :24:25. | :24:27. | |
might call a client caught out there. -- a client caught. They have | :24:28. | :24:37. | |
been expending money on feet, on bedding, other forms of agricultural | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
activity. They need money to comment. The Scottish Government | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
should have, the moment it realised the system was going off the rails, | :24:46. | :24:48. | |
they should have stepped in with a workable alternative to minimise the | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
financial worry and difficulty for our farmers, and they did not do | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
that. If we can get by ground to Stewart Maxwell, would you like to | :24:58. | :25:04. | |
answer that point? You should have acted earlier. Let's put it in | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
perspective. Payments have to be owned by the end of June. Over half | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
of farmers and crofters have had payments, and the governed as a | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
poster will be a ?200 million package of advance payments for | :25:20. | :25:21. | |
those who have not yet received their payments by the end of March. | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
The garment has stepped in. It is making sure our agricultural sector | :25:27. | :25:32. | |
is protected. The fact is more than half of already received payments, | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
and those who have not will be able to access this ?200 million of | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
advance payments. The Government is doing the right thing and protecting | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
the agricultural sector. Liam McArthur, what is wrong with what | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
Stewart has set? There might be delayed, but these things happen. I | :25:53. | :25:59. | |
will not hold Stewart Maxwell responsible for this, but the | :26:00. | :26:02. | |
difficulty is it is at least three or four much months late in | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
happening. People have been told since last summer that everything | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
would be OK, payments would go out in December and most would have the | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
appearance by the end of January. Nobody saw how that would be | :26:15. | :26:16. | |
possible with an IT system showing signs of fragility from the get go. | :26:17. | :26:26. | |
Annabel is right. With no plan B, in relation to payments out the border | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
there was, meaning that farmers south of the border had been | :26:31. | :26:32. | |
receiving payments in a timely fashion. Richard was too busy | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
criticising poetical opponents and farmers for throwing bricks before | :26:39. | :26:44. | |
he finally realised this was utterly unsustainable, that rural economies | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
were being starved of invaluable funding. ?300 million of funding. | :26:48. | :26:56. | |
Jackie Baillie, I can see that it is your job to oppose, that this is | :26:57. | :26:59. | |
almost normal with Government IT systems. It has happened in the NHS. | :27:00. | :27:06. | |
Balmer care, the date went online, did not work because the IT systems | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
did not work. It seems to happen with Government. --. ObamaCare. The | :27:11. | :27:23. | |
issue is, Government should anticipate this. Just as you are | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
describing failures in IT systems, they should have had and the' a | :27:29. | :27:37. | |
back-up. Every time it was raised in the Chamber, we were reassured that | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
the Government was on the case, now we find months later they have not | :27:42. | :27:44. | |
been, and it had been pushed into doing something because we are | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
approaching an election. I think farmers deserve much better than | :27:49. | :27:49. | |
that. Back to the chamber now, | :27:50. | :27:51. | |
where the Conservatives have been calling for an independent inquiry | :27:52. | :27:54. | |
into problems with payments of the Common Agricultural | :27:55. | :27:56. | |
Policy fund to farmers. Richard Lochhead, the Rural Affairs | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
Secretary is responding now Her decisions here in Scotland, | :28:00. | :28:14. | |
supported by this Parliament, added more complexity on top of all that. | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
The timescale forgetting those decisions and lamented was very | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
tight indeed. For the first pillar of policy, Derek payments, the EE | :28:25. | :28:30. | |
you did not adopt systems before the scheme is due to start, and the | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
detailed rules were later than that. For the second pillar, the situation | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
is even worse. It should have started on the 1st of January 20 14. | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
Europe had not set out all the rules by then. It is only because of | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
transition arrangements which the Scottish Government fought for that | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
we avoided a disastrous gap between programmes. In light of this | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
timescale we were clear with stakeholders that extra policy | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
details that they were asking for, and in some cases insisting upon, | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
would inevitably affect payments to some degree. And at least in the | :29:05. | :29:10. | |
first year. In the first year we have a new system invented for the | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
first time, and many one-off tasks to undertake. We knew undertaking | :29:16. | :29:21. | |
the timescale was a tall order, but we were determined and I said this | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
at the time, to get payments out as early as possible within the | :29:26. | :29:27. | |
seven-month payment timetable window that Europe lays down. We all knew | :29:28. | :29:34. | |
the risks, something the industry itself acknowledges, and we all | :29:35. | :29:42. | |
agreed the risks were worth taking. In light of his point about the | :29:43. | :29:45. | |
seven-month payment timetable. Will he confirm today that every crofting | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
former across Scotland will receive their full CAP payment before the | :29:51. | :29:57. | |
30th of June timetable? Clearly that is absolutely our determination | :29:58. | :29:59. | |
because you want to avoid fines from liver, and if we do not have 95% | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
payments paid we are subject to fines. -- avoid fines from Europe. | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
We will make every effort to avoid that. In terms of the risks worth | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
taking. We agree these risks were worth taking, but having said that, | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
I completely understand the difficult position farmers and | :30:21. | :30:23. | |
crofters find themselves in due to the poor prices and extreme weather | :30:24. | :30:26. | |
we have experienced in recent months. I said last year that while | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
we do have it impossible to get payments out as soon as possible, | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
this was not a normal year and farmers should be prepared for that. | :30:36. | :30:38. | |
I'll discuss these issues with the banks briefly. Does he think that | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
having a better weather and better prices the shambles of the IT system | :30:45. | :30:51. | |
would be more acceptable? Order! If you speak to any farmer and crofter | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
crosscut and you will tell them they are serious issues and you may find | :30:56. | :30:58. | |
it a laughing matter, but there are many businesses suffering right now | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
because of these issues. We happen working tirelessly. We started | :31:03. | :31:09. | |
making first instalment in December. By now we have in making payments to | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
over 10,500 farmers and crofters in Scotland, worth 85% of their total | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
payments complete with initial target of at least 70%. That is just | :31:18. | :31:24. | |
around 59% farmers and crofters have been paid as of today. But we have | :31:25. | :31:30. | |
not been progressing as anticipated. As I have said many times, this is | :31:31. | :31:35. | |
deeply disappointing. Where we are at the moment is not good enough, | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
and for that I did apologise to the industry. By the IT system is | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
working, but not anywhere near as quickly as we all want. And I fully | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
accept that. Under the EE rules, we have to complete detailed checks and | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
every claim before we can authorise payments, and it is only after | :31:52. | :31:54. | |
payments are made that we're reimbursed by the European Union. | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
The IT system has to validate each and every claim against 400,000 | :32:00. | :32:07. | |
fields, and over 500 EU rules. Just think of that for a second. Every | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
claim, 400,000 fields, over 500 EU rules. Officials are constantly | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
having to improve the IHT we are using, and that Europe says we have | :32:19. | :32:25. | |
to use to speed up cases. We have drafted extra staff into offices, | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
and our teams up and working day and night. As I said before and say | :32:29. | :32:34. | |
again today, Ministers believe we have to learn lessons. A new report | :32:35. | :32:41. | |
will be produced in due course, and will support any subsequent enquiry | :32:42. | :32:44. | |
in the future, but clearly that is a matter for the next Parliament as | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
the NFC West president said himself quite rightly this morning. | :32:50. | :32:59. | |
Getting Scotland divided into three payment regions has been a massive | :33:00. | :33:08. | |
challenge. It was a problem in England with the last cap reform | :33:09. | :33:11. | |
when it went disastrously wrong for them. I am told at this stage they | :33:12. | :33:17. | |
are paid less than 4% of their businesses, less than 4% of their | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
businesses. We are going through reforms they went through in 2005 | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
plus another set of reforms on top of that. Wales this time, could not | :33:26. | :33:33. | |
find a model at all so they abandon the idea. In Scotland, many key | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
players in the industry were insistent that there had to be three | :33:38. | :33:40. | |
regions are not the two that the Scottish Government originally | :33:41. | :33:41. | |
consulted upon. The Social Justice Secretary Alex | :33:42. | :33:43. | |
Neil says the Scottish Government remains committed to ending gender | :33:44. | :33:45. | |
inequality in Scotland, Yesterday - on International Women's | :33:46. | :33:47. | |
Day - he was asked by fellow SNP MSP Christina McKelvie what ministers | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
were doing to ensure women were properly represented in leading | :33:53. | :33:54. | |
roles in the private As the member knows, in terms of | :33:55. | :34:10. | |
public and private fund sector, we're doing everything we can to | :34:11. | :34:17. | |
encourage gender balance and of course 50-50 by 2020 is a key part | :34:18. | :34:20. | |
of the Government's strategy. Although B did not have the | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
legislative power to enforce private sector organisations to engage in | :34:25. | :34:31. | |
50-50, as a major user of private services, we are using whatever | :34:32. | :34:34. | |
influence we can to try to encourage companies to do it and then reap the | :34:35. | :34:43. | |
benefits of having 50-50 by 2020. I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary will | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
agree with me not just about goals in public and private sectors but | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
one of the main issues is still gender inequality pay gap and I | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
wonder if he could give us an update that the Scottish Government has | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
taken to close the gender pay gap. In the public sector, the main area | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
is in relation to equal pay and local authorities and there are | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
still 45 local authorities in Scotland who have not finally | :35:10. | :35:15. | |
settled their claims. -- for or five. It is the Cabinet Secretary's | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
responsibility to encourage them to complete the settlement of these | :35:21. | :35:23. | |
claims as as soon as possible because I know in North Lanarkshire | :35:24. | :35:26. | |
alone for example billable 4000 people, mainly women, is still | :35:27. | :35:34. | |
outstanding and I think the time it has taken since the original equal | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
pay act was passed and since the existing negotiations were held | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
about 12 or 15 years ago, that there is no excuse now for any outstanding | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
claims still to be settled in this day and age. I'm sure the Cabinet | :35:48. | :35:55. | |
Secretary is as shocked as I am by the University College union's | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
report highlighting the gender pay gap in their -- our colleges and | :36:00. | :36:06. | |
universities. The worst one is the University of Highlands and Islands | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
which shows male lecturers are paid ?18,000 more than their female | :36:11. | :36:21. | |
equivalents. This is unacceptable in a publicly funded institution. What | :36:22. | :36:24. | |
is the Cabinet Secretary going to do about it? Throughout the public | :36:25. | :36:30. | |
sector, we want to see equal pay implemented including local | :36:31. | :36:32. | |
authority sectors but also in the academic sector, both universities | :36:33. | :36:38. | |
and colleges as well and what we will do is everything in our power | :36:39. | :36:42. | |
to try and encourage and ensure that those funded through the public | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
sector and taxpayer actually fulfil a requirement of equal pay for equal | :36:47. | :36:47. | |
work. Back to the discussion about the | :36:48. | :37:02. | |
figures. Let say we accept what Stewart Maxwell was saying about oil | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
being a bonus, this idea that should Scotland vote to stay in the EU if | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
Britain votes to leave and will have another independence referendum, | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
this is going to become much more current again, isn't it, because we | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
would need to have projections for what the real situations would be in | :37:20. | :37:27. | |
a independent Scotland now. That is where people misjudge the link | :37:28. | :37:30. | |
between the European referendum and a second independence referendum | :37:31. | :37:33. | |
because the link is only present if the polling significantly changes in | :37:34. | :37:40. | |
favour of a Yes vote here. It would be based on the currency issue, | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
which is much more complicated now. Do we want to attach it to the pound | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
if it is out of the EU? I don't think you could do that. Would we | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
have to go into the year now if we were entering the youth from a point | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
of being outside? But you are correct, I think we go from the | :37:59. | :38:01. | |
point where the fiscal circumstances are vastly different in a second | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
independence referendum campaign than they were in the first one so I | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
think it is not quite as simple as just thinking pulling out of the EU | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
means an independence referendum, it is a whole new set of circumstances | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
to base judgments on. But if there's going to be a referendum or even a | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
campaign for one on independence, shouldn't these things be discussed | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
right now? What currency would Scotland be part of? What would the | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
public think? How would the finance the deficit that has grown since the | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
last one? The SNP knows these issues are the reasons that they lost. | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
Fundamentally, that is why they lost the first one. You would think they | :38:43. | :38:45. | |
would be discussing about now. My money as they're not discussing it | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
because they don't think they will be holding a independence referendum | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
any time soon. Whichever way people vote, I don't think it is on the | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
Scottish Government or Nicola Sturgeon's radar to push for a | :38:59. | :39:01. | |
second independence referendum soon which is going to cause internal | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
problems in the party. I remember when Ross Finnie was agricultural | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
minister and it was a big row about something in the water in the hills | :39:12. | :39:17. | |
and he said to me after a programme, I supposed to go up and take samples | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
every night or it's my fault? There is a bit of that this computer | :39:22. | :39:30. | |
thing. Is he meant to get a Windows 10 manual and work out what is going | :39:31. | :39:37. | |
on? IG solutions and Government don't work very well. -- IT. Any | :39:38. | :39:47. | |
time something goes wrong with the Scottish Government, the opposition | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
have to leap on it. I don't think it will be a lingering issue. They have | :39:53. | :39:57. | |
to pursue the companies who are doing it. | :39:58. | :39:58. | |
And now to Prime Ministers Questions. | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
The Labour leader attacked David Cameron for his government's | :40:04. | :40:05. | |
But the Prime Minister defended it, saying there were 480,000, | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
fewer children living in workless households, | :40:10. | :40:12. | |
because of his party's success with growing the economy. | :40:13. | :40:14. | |
Mr Cameron said this was evidence of them tackling the problem. | :40:15. | :40:23. | |
If there is more money is available to be spent on children's services, | :40:24. | :40:29. | |
why are there another 500,000 children living in poverty because | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
of the policies of this Government? If we really do have the strong | :40:34. | :40:37. | |
economy that the Prime Minister claims, then why did the Chancellor | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
warned last week, I quote, we may need to make further reductions. Who | :40:44. | :40:48. | |
will these reductions follow on, the disabled? Pensioners? Women? Will he | :40:49. | :40:56. | |
rule out attacking those groups? He will see the budget next week when | :40:57. | :41:03. | |
the Chancellor who has an excellent record of stealing the nation's | :41:04. | :41:06. | |
economy will stand up to give them but the gentleman just made some | :41:07. | :41:12. | |
remarks about child poverty. Since 2010, there are 680,000 fewer | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
workless households. Think about what that means. 680,000 households | :41:17. | :41:22. | |
where someone is bringing home a wage, putting food on the table and | :41:23. | :41:29. | |
paying less taxes. There are 40,000 fewer members were no member has | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
ever worked -- fewer houses and 480,000 children fewer living in | :41:35. | :41:42. | |
poverty households. This is about having a growing economy, increased | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
childcare, things never delivered by Labour. The refugee crisis is the | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
biggest crisis across Europe. As the Prime Minister ashamed that in a UK | :41:54. | :42:00. | |
Government programme, trafficking victims were locked up without food | :42:01. | :42:03. | |
and asylum seeking children were forced to sleep on concrete floors | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
that patients with diarrhoea were denied access to showers and the | :42:10. | :42:16. | |
woman was beaten at a detention centre. As the Prime Minister | :42:17. | :42:22. | |
ashamed of this? I will look at the points he makes. I would save our | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
asylum system is fair and Britain through the ages has given people | :42:27. | :42:29. | |
asylum from torture and persecution. When it comes to the issue of | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
resettling Syrian refugees, it was instructed at this week's European | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
Council with the chart showing how many countries have actually settled | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
Syrian refugees, Britain has done better than any other country except | :42:44. | :42:49. | |
for Germany. 76% of the cost of a bottle of whiskey is taxed. Last | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
year, the Government's 2% cut on duty increased revenue to the | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
Treasury by ?102 million. Will he accept that one of our products is | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
taxed too much and body join me and the Scotch Whisky Association and | :43:03. | :43:08. | |
calling for a further 2% reduction? The Chancellor and I have | :43:09. | :43:11. | |
consistently backed Scottish whiskey and it's vital industry but let me | :43:12. | :43:17. | |
say this to him, on the day that the profit and loss account comes out | :43:18. | :43:21. | |
for Scotland, you can see there is a ?15 billion gap that Scotland would | :43:22. | :43:27. | |
face if it was outside the United Kingdom. I dread to think what | :43:28. | :43:34. | |
taxation would have to be levied not just on whiskey, but petrol, work, | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
income, Holmes. That's the prospect of life outside the native kingdom. | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
That's why I'm so glad we voted to stay together. On Sunday we | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
celebrated Mother's Day and yesterday, International Women's | :43:49. | :43:51. | |
Day, and members working to celebrate women on both occasions. | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
Why then has this Government introduced cuts to public services, | :43:56. | :44:01. | |
child benefit and reductions in work-related benefits that have left | :44:02. | :44:08. | |
mothers ?13 billion worse off? The one thing I share with the | :44:09. | :44:11. | |
honourable lady is it was right to celebrate Mother's Day. I spent it | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
with my mother but I think it said enough about her! It was a privilege | :44:17. | :44:23. | |
to welcome to number ten is inspirational women from all walks | :44:24. | :44:25. | |
of life to Mark International Women's Day I'm not saying the | :44:26. | :44:31. | |
Government has solved all of these problems but we have more women in | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
work, higher pay, lower taxes, better child care and better | :44:37. | :44:39. | |
pensions and when it comes to the thing that Government needs to do, | :44:40. | :44:45. | |
we're appointing more women to senior positions, public | :44:46. | :44:47. | |
appointments. The honour system is now reflecting women. The pay gap is | :44:48. | :44:50. | |
now at its lowest published level. Our Westminster correspondent | :44:51. | :44:53. | |
David Porter has been joined It's the type of tropical heat which | :44:54. | :45:11. | |
is wet and precipitates. It is Wednesday so we're going to talk | :45:12. | :45:14. | |
about things that happened on Sunday, namely the Sunday trading | :45:15. | :45:17. | |
Bill which is going for Commons this afternoon. Joining me are my guests, | :45:18. | :45:27. | |
Lord Percy for the Liberal Democrats, Conservatives, the SNP. | :45:28. | :45:36. | |
What is the SNP doing deciding what will be Westminster policy on an | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
issue that doesn't affect Scotland? It does affect Scotland in terms of | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
those boys in the retail sector, many of whom are on low pay and | :45:48. | :45:50. | |
enjoy a Sunday premium for working on a Sunday and despite seeking | :45:51. | :45:55. | |
assurances that will not be accorded, the Government has not | :45:56. | :45:58. | |
been prepared to either devolve legislation to make sure that is set | :45:59. | :46:01. | |
in statute or to put it on the face of its bill to we are protecting | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
about 33% of retail workers who will be affected if this goes through. | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
But not everyone in Scotland who works on a Sunday gets a premium. | :46:11. | :46:18. | |
Many of them don't get that premium. This legislation would devolve power | :46:19. | :46:22. | |
to local authorities in England and Wales. I repeat the question, why is | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
the Scottish National Party getting involved? Because it could see about | :46:27. | :46:31. | |
33% of people working in the retail sector lose money. We said we would | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
come here and stand up for those in our society that need support. | :46:36. | :46:38. | |
That's what we're doing. I don't see any inherent hypocrisy around that. | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
If the Government was not recognising that, we could have done | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
something. We ask for devolution, they rejected it. This is an issue | :46:49. | :46:51. | |
of their own making. The issue is not about the SNP footing against | :46:52. | :46:54. | |
this, it is about Conservatives voting against it. -- voting. Do you | :46:55. | :47:02. | |
buy that argument, that if you can get your own MPs onside whatever the | :47:03. | :47:08. | |
SNP did would be irrelevant? I don't think anyone buys this argument. | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
This is just rank hypocrisy of the SNP. They just want a key grievance | :47:14. | :47:16. | |
year between the people of England and Wales and the people of | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
Scotland. They have a lack of Sunday trading laws in Scotland but are | :47:21. | :47:23. | |
poking their nose into an England and Wales matter only, simply to | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
cause grievance. There is no other reason. The pretence of the SNP that | :47:28. | :47:33. | |
this is somehow protecting workers has just been laid bare by yourself, | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
by your own survey, by suggesting that very few people in Scotland | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
actually get this premium so it is complete nonsense. This is the SNP | :47:43. | :47:48. | |
playing games, creating grievance where they shouldn't be. What they | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
should be really -- what we should really be asking ourselves is why is | :47:53. | :47:58. | |
there a ?15 billion deficit in Scotland for 2014, 2015? That is why | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
the -- what they should be answering, why the people of | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
Scotland have been let down. What if your ministers had been more | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
accommodating with your own MPs, but you wouldn't have got into this? We | :48:14. | :48:19. | |
are a broad church and I understand there may 20 Conservative MPs who | :48:20. | :48:22. | |
might not support the Government. I will be supporting the Government | :48:23. | :48:27. | |
but let's focus on at the issue is, the SNP don't want English words for | :48:28. | :48:30. | |
English laws, they want to book their nose into areas that don't | :48:31. | :48:33. | |
concern them and have breached their own promise to the Scottish people. | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
They promised they would not interfere on a matter of principle | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
on England and Wales matters only. In this case, even if it concerns | :48:42. | :48:47. | |
the matter of paint -- colour of paint, they will pull their nose in. | :48:48. | :48:51. | |
Are you happy this is common cause with the SNP when this does not | :48:52. | :48:54. | |
affect Scotland as directly as many people would think would be an issue | :48:55. | :49:01. | |
to campaign on? It is right to say that Sunday trading in Scotland is | :49:02. | :49:05. | |
deregulated, it has been since 1994, but don't have to listen to us with | :49:06. | :49:09. | |
regards to the effect of Scottish workers, listen to the trade union | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
who have been getting representations from tens of | :49:14. | :49:16. | |
thousands of their own members saying they will lose terms and | :49:17. | :49:19. | |
conditions for working on a Sunday service is not a political thing but | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
the two things that from this, the Conservatives on a majority so they | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
cannot persuade their own backbenchers to vote for this, they | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
won't get any legislation through. The SNP have try to do a deal with | :49:33. | :49:37. | |
the Conservatives on this for the last few months. Angus Robertson | :49:38. | :49:39. | |
said she would absolutely not vote for this legislation. It took them | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
until late last night to see that they wouldn't you can draw from that | :49:44. | :49:47. | |
that they're willing to protect English foxes when they said they | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
would not board for fox hunting changes in England. They were not | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
willing to protect shop workers. I think they have serious questions to | :49:57. | :49:59. | |
answer about the games they are playing. You return from Canada | :50:00. | :50:06. | |
early to take part in the sport. Sunday trading is enormous and | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
Canada, isn't it? It depends what province you're in, I think, but it | :50:12. | :50:19. | |
is a matter of principle here. In my constituency, Scottish workers in | :50:20. | :50:22. | |
Asda and Tesco and other big shops might lose their Sunday premium. | :50:23. | :50:28. | |
Asda have said they will lose its all I am standing up for shop | :50:29. | :50:31. | |
workers. I only wish the Conservatives and SNP would have | :50:32. | :50:36. | |
done the same. As far as the Liberal Democrats are concerned, that you | :50:37. | :50:41. | |
have worries about Scottish workers if this becomes a UK wide that | :50:42. | :50:45. | |
people will work for longer -- shop for longer on Sunday, they will lose | :50:46. | :50:52. | |
payments? Someone who worked across the borders, it will not be affected | :50:53. | :50:59. | |
by what Callan says, so constitutionally he is wrong on the | :51:00. | :51:03. | |
basis of contractual requirements but it goes to a deeper issue. I | :51:04. | :51:09. | |
voted on Sunday trading in the Scottish Parliament and at no stage | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
did the SNP make any of those arguments there. I expect Ian is | :51:14. | :51:17. | |
right, they started this process of Government with one possession and | :51:18. | :51:22. | |
changed it when they saw another political opportunity but that is | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
their possession, they said they would not vote on English issues, | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
they do wish to raise grievance. My only problem is that at the moment | :51:32. | :51:37. | |
it is shop workers they claim to defend. They didn't stab at this | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
position when they knew that the facts then, and they didn't start | :51:43. | :51:45. | |
when I was watching on this in the Scottish parliament so the rank | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
hypocrisy from them is shameful. Sometimes an opposition party's duty | :51:50. | :51:57. | |
is to oppose. Opposition to whom? On what basis of this being done? Shop | :51:58. | :52:02. | |
workers would be dropped like a hot stone if it did not suit their | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
constitutional purpose. What about public sector workers? What about | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
binmen and the lorry drivers? What about nurses? The SNP are saying | :52:12. | :52:19. | |
they want differentials. The cool about it -- they crow. How much are | :52:20. | :52:32. | |
you worried this as seen on the wrong side of your argument? People | :52:33. | :52:38. | |
would say Dewar propping up the Tories at Westminster. That wouldn't | :52:39. | :52:48. | |
play well in the Holyrood election. The Tories are going to undermine | :52:49. | :52:54. | |
people's pay and we have three political parties all taking the | :52:55. | :52:58. | |
opportunity to attack the SNP. No one has a problem with anyone else | :52:59. | :53:01. | |
watching honestly the Northern Irish MPs. We are taking our time, we have | :53:02. | :53:08. | |
established, talked with retailers, talked with the Government to see if | :53:09. | :53:11. | |
they would make concessions to allay the fears and we have done that and | :53:12. | :53:16. | |
the Government has refused to meet what really quite reasonable | :53:17. | :53:19. | |
suggestions from the SNP at around this. If anyone is to blame for | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
this, it is the Government. We have tried to protect Scottish workers | :53:25. | :53:27. | |
and we have failed because the Government stopped us. How damaging | :53:28. | :53:32. | |
be if the Government was defeated on this this afternoon? It is right | :53:33. | :53:39. | |
that the viewers she once and for all the rank hypocrisy of the SNP. | :53:40. | :53:43. | |
This is a game that the SNP are playing. This is not the position of | :53:44. | :53:50. | |
the SNP, the position of the SNP is to play games. They want to create | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
grievance where there is none. The ad in charge of Scotland, there is a | :53:55. | :54:03. | |
?15 billion deficit for 2014, to -- 2015. That is where they should be | :54:04. | :54:07. | |
focusing. Did you think you will win this afternoon? It looks like there | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
is a significant rebellion on the Conservative backbenchers. There are | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
a lot of people in England and Wales who do not want this to go through. | :54:17. | :54:21. | |
But it is absolutely right. The SNP tonight after the general election | :54:22. | :54:23. | |
and said they supported English word for English laws and that they would | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
vote to bring down fox hunting changes that but will make | :54:29. | :54:31. | |
equalising with Scotland. It is rank hypocrisy and they are playing with | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
shop workers. Final answer from you, is this going to put the matter to | :54:37. | :54:42. | |
that one way or another? No, because if the SNP carry on this position it | :54:43. | :54:46. | |
will be for all workers but it is unclear if it will apply to workers | :54:47. | :54:52. | |
across all sectors. They have said no, so it is purely political. Thank | :54:53. | :54:59. | |
you. Somehow I think we can probably carry on until Sunday about talking | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
about this issue but we can't. Back to you in the studio. | :55:04. | :55:10. | |
What exactly is the Labour position on this? They're against it because | :55:11. | :55:22. | |
what? They're against it generally speaking, it would appear. Iain | :55:23. | :55:32. | |
Murray is going to vote obviously. It is not the position Labour are | :55:33. | :55:36. | |
taking because he is voting on it. Some of them have at times. Some | :55:37. | :55:41. | |
would argue it is in their interest not to alert because they reject the | :55:42. | :55:50. | |
premise. They simply reject the premise. I don't think all of them | :55:51. | :56:01. | |
could. There are arguing it is not good for shop workers. Ian Murray | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
outlined that Asda have said shop workers in Scotland could lose out | :56:06. | :56:08. | |
as a result of this. I don't think there is any certainty about this. I | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
think he's arguing that shop workers and England could as well because | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
they might be forced to do... They could be forced to work Sundays, | :56:18. | :56:25. | |
yes. I think he's arguing to a degree on a Scottish bases. I think | :56:26. | :56:29. | |
he is seeing his constituents in Edinburgh could also lose out | :56:30. | :56:32. | |
because if they work in a big store, they may take a duty position. If | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
the Government losers, is it an important decision? In the grand | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
scheme of things I don't think it is going to be something we will | :56:44. | :56:46. | |
remember. It is less about the issue and what about the fact the SNP are | :56:47. | :56:52. | |
voting on it. When we look at it as journalists and political | :56:53. | :56:54. | |
commentators, what we will remember is not the issue but the fact the | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
SNP voted on it is another interesting constitutional matter. | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
It's maybe not true if you're working in M True but what the | :57:03. | :57:11. | |
opposition politicians have said is that the Tories have a majority so | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
if they could quell in a billion on their own backbenchers they could | :57:16. | :57:17. | |
push this through anyway so that is a valid point. There is opposition | :57:18. | :57:22. | |
to this that is not about sticking up shop workers. Stuff that was | :57:23. | :57:29. | |
abandoned in Scotland as Iain Murray said in 1984. Mainly opposition from | :57:30. | :57:37. | |
Tory MPs who are going to vote against the Government on it for | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
religious reasons. It looks like it is not going to go through and they | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
will have to wait until we have a more solid majority to return to. | :57:47. | :57:47. | |
You can keep up with the latest debates from Holyrood on the BBC's | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
I'll be back this weekend on BBC One with Sunday Politics. | :57:52. | :57:56. |