11/12/2013 Politics Scotland


11/12/2013

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Welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up: Accusations the Scottish

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government is failing to meet manifesto pledges on schools as new

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figures show a rise in average class sizes. People in Pretoria paid

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tribute to Nelson Mandela, as his Coffin lies in state. MSPs remember

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the man and his connections to Scotland. Here at Westminster, party

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leaders due up to give -- trash plans to give a pay rise to MPs. Can

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they stop it? The average class size of tuple is in primary 1-3 has

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increased to 23. The SNP pledge that all memory class sizes would be

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smaller as failed. -- primary class sizes. They blamed extreme financial

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pressure for missing the target. We have achieved the maximum in law. We

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now need to see whether we can put primary to an primary three into

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law. The class sizes of 18, in a time of extreme financial pressure,

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we have not got that, but we have maintained, and in hands, the

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quality of Scottish education. -- enhanced. We are joined by Mike Wade

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from The Times, and also by the education correspondent Jamie

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McIvor. It seems like bad news for the Education Secretary. Certainly,

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when it comes to class sizes, it will be something of a political

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argument. This is this that is the -- this is the bulletin that the

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government published. There is much in it that the government is proud

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of. They are keen to highlight things such as more probationary

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teachers getting jobs, fewer pupils in bad buildings, and a drop in the

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number of pupils being excluded, but I think it is the issue of class

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sizes that will be seized on. There has been a big drop in the number of

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pupils in primary one, two and three, and a significant rise in

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four, five and six. Cutting class sizes has been a priority since they

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came to office. As we were hearing, there is a limit of 25 on primary

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one pupils, and that is being kept too. There are only a few hundred

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pupils in classes of more than 25. There are exceptional reasons why

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that happens. I think it is the fact that the average class sizes are

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creeping up again, the direction of travel is not going the way the

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government would like, it is that that is the issue. Mike Wade, lots

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of good news in those statistics, but also, this is a key target for

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them pointed out by the SNP Government, education, education

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education, always a key priority. It goes to the heart of another policy,

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the council tax freeze. Local authorities have got their hands

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tied to some degree. When you look at that, it is quite specific, these

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numbers should have fallen. They have missed their target quite

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substantially. It was set in 2010. They have missed that for the third

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year running. The Education Secretary was blaming extreme

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financial pressures. The local authorities under a funding squeeze

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at the moment. What is the problem and how might it be resolved?

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Education is a national service which local authorities are

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entrusted to provide. Although the government and local authorities can

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agree priorities, at the end of the day, some local authorities have

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different priorities in spending money. In education, the tension

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comes to the fore. Mike Russell was pointing out in the clip that we

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showed that education in Scotland was improving. Rumack years, but

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they have made such a great play in the White Paper and recent weeks

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about the focus on education, on parents, it is just bad news to have

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this kind of thing, he said there was something particularly good

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about some aspects of the statistics. I could not see it. It

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does not look good at all. This is something voters really care about.

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We will be back later. Jamie McIvor, thank you for that. An audience has

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questioned Alex Salmond on the White Paper for independence yesterday.

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Civic Scotland and business were among the audience who put

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questions, ranging from Scotland's role in Europe to the future state

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of the economy. We start with a question on childcare. Don't believe

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there isn't a single woman in Scotland that would want to embrace

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this, I Will you make sure it gets out there? -- how do you? Politics

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is failing a significant section of our community and the referendum

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will not reach these people because they have lost confidence in

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politics. Are you worried about Madrid? I reflect along with other

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business associations and increasing frustration in the business

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community. What we need to see either costings which back-up the

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reassurances which are offered. On a variety of subjects, we will be

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publishing more. The White Paper is our platform. People want to engage

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in the debate. That was the first minister speaking at the meeting.

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That was a quickfire round look at some of the questions that were

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there. You were at the meeting. What was the general feeling? It was a

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funny event, in a way. I find it amazing that the government can take

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so much time to take this on the road. But they are creating debate

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around the issues, which is very interesting. As a journalist, I am

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inclined to be cynical. It is in my DNA. But travelling away from that,

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I spoke to people at the meeting and they were impressed. They were

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impressed that issues I had just referred to like early years had

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been raised. The danger for better together is that they allowed the

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SNP and the yes campaign to dominate those issues. They can say they are

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the only people talking about these things in Scotland. I really think

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that is an interesting issue and I know there are a lot of people who

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don't know, and I think you might see some movement, whatever the

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polling says. We started with the clip on childcare, that was a huge

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issue. How much did people discuss that yesterday and what was the

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focus of that? Your clip has picked up from memory pretty much all the

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questions about that. It was very broad. Their work logical -- there

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was some critical voiceplu-mac. I think the reaction was positive.

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They got hundreds of people into a room and they made them think, what

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shape do we want Scotland to be? You might not agree with that but it was

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an interesting discussion. Alex Salmond was saying he would publish

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more detail. Was the White Paper meant to be definitive in terms of

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what was laid out? It is interesting he says there will be more detail.

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That was my impression, that it was meant to be definitive, and in the

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months before you were hearing there was a worry that there would be

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nothing there, and in fact there was hundreds of pages, the one thing

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was, there was not a cost structure, there was no Bill, what it would

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cost. It seems to me, the White Paper suggest that you could have

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everything, you could have this and this and this, what struck me was

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you could have this or this, you cannot have childcare on a Swedish

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model and low taxation. You have to make a choice. Moving onto the next

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issue, the live statement in Parliament coming up in a moment,

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the finance secretary is going to speak about the budget for 2015,

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local authorities, the councils will be watching with interest. With

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bated breath, it is unlucky or ironic, coming out on the same day

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as the school statistics. What you feel instinctively is what we always

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call Cinderella services, literary services are really suffering here.

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They will suffer some more. John Swinney will lay out in the

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statement some of the partnership working is that they have with local

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authorities when it comes to schools, the number of teachers,

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probably talking about the council tax as well. It does seem local

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authorities are under pressure because of the council tax freeze.

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Massively under pressure. The council tax freeze seems to me as

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very strange policy, I have never really understood it. It is not a

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fair tax, it penalises people at the lower end to the benefit of people

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who can afford to pay it. I don't understood that, I have never

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understood it. It is interesting that this ties in with the previous

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discussion about education funding, class sizes. Very much so. If you

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have had kids in school, you just hear this all the time. This

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constant tension about school resources is there all the time.

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Ministers are burying their heads in the sand if they don't hear that. It

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is very evident if you're a parent. Thanks very much for that. The

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Presiding Officer is now speaking in the parliament just now. I think the

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finance secretary John Swinney is just taking his seat in the chamber,

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ready to give that statement on the financial settlement for local

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authorities, 2014-2015. After that, we will be hearing from the Scottish

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Conservative-led debate on the Autumn Statement. Here is John

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Swinney with that statement. There should be no interruptions or

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interventions. I call on John Swinney, you have ten minutes. I

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statement will cover two topics. I will update the local government

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settlement for the current financial year, set out the terms of the

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provisional settlement, and confirm the overall total figures for

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2015-2016. I will update Parliament on the business rate proposals for

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Scotland. Copies of the tables containing the information are

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available. This plays a major role in local partnerships that are

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essential to the delivery of the outcomes that matter for the people

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of Scotland. In recognising this we have maintained our strong

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partnership with COSLA. We have set agreements against a backdrop of

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continued financial constraints in Scotland from the United Kingdom

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government. Turing this period, we have remained committed to that

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partnership and protected local government as much as possible to

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shield communities from the worst of these cuts. Between 2007-2008 and

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2012-2013, the resources increased by 4.6%, and local government

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budgets improved by 8.9%. This degree of protection has continued

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and between 2013-2014 and 2015-2016, the resources under the Scottish

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Government's control will increase by 2%. -- 0.2%. The share of total

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revenue funding within the government control will have

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increased. There can be no argument whilst times have been tight, local

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government has been fairly funded. The figures resulting from the

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Spending Review resulted in a flat cash settlement on a like-for-like

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basis compared to an 8% cash reduction in England over the same

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period. In connection with 2013-2014, I am able to confirm some

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additional funding for lip -- over ?60 million. That has been discussed

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with COSLA. This sum will be partially offset by a recovery of

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around ?41 million from local authorities in respect of both

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committed and uncommitted police reserves that have been returned to

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local authorities following the winding up of the former joint

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boards and the successful establishment of police Scotland.

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This ?41 million represents the Scottish Government's share of the

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outstanding reserves. The additional sums are as follows: ?27.5 million

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previously held back for the teacher induction scheme, ?20 million to top

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up discretionary housing payments, ?4 million for second languages and

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?2.5 million in respect of the National care home contract. On a

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like-for-like basis, the 2015 settlement represents cash with

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additional funding for extra responsibilities. We have also

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continued to honour our commitment to maintain local government's share

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of the overall capital resources within the Scottish budget. The

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settlement originally set out as part of the three-year local

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government finance settlement covering the period to 2015 has been

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maintained this by the significant challenges presented by the recent

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outcome of the various UK budgets and the June 2013 spending round

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which have resulted in further cuts in post on the budget for 2015. None

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of those reductions in Scotland's budget which resulted to ?40.6

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million in 2013-2014 and 2014-2015 have been passed on to local

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government. Support will amount to almost ?10.6 billion, including

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revenue and capital funding along with income raised from business

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rates. Within the total funding package it will amount to ?985

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million, including the funding to deliver council tax freeze. Capital

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of ?773 million. The total includes a further 81 million to deliver on

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the commitment to fully fund the additional cost of early learning

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and childcare. This is ?51 million from revenue costs and 30 million

:16:37.:16:42.

for capital expenditure. As of August 20 14, three-year-olds and

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four-year-olds will be eligible for 600 hours of care, and increase on

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the 475 currently. This package will save the average family ?707 a

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year, per child. The total revenue includes small changes since the

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publication of the draft budget. The main being the addition of the 20

:17:07.:17:10.

million for the discretionary housing payments to alleviate the

:17:11.:17:15.

impact of the bedroom tax. As part of the partnership approach, local

:17:16.:17:19.

government agreed to deliver priorities for the people of

:17:20.:17:23.

Scotland. The agreement was described in my letter to this list

:17:24.:17:28.

macro that set out the terms of the settlement. As part of it, local

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authorities will freeze the council tax, which has continued to help

:17:34.:17:37.

families in tough times. Maintain teacher numbers in line with new

:17:38.:17:43.

above numbers, secure places the probationers and work with the NHS

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to the integration of adult health and social care. The Finance

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Secretary speaking live. After those proceedings, MSPs will debate the

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Autumn Statement. If you want to get the debate live, you can watch it on

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the BBC democracy live website from 3:10pm. The Conservative lead debate

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praises the work of George Osborne and opponents criticise it. We can

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discuss that now. SNP's Jamie Hepburn. Iain Gray from Labour. And

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the Conservatives' Murdo Fraser. There is praise the George Osborne

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in the debate, led by your colleague Gavin Brown, but what about the

:18:31.:18:37.

amendment put forward that the austerity drive has resulted in

:18:38.:18:40.

opportunities for growth being missed? The economy is 5.9 smaller,

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five but 9% in 2015, than forecast in 2010. John Swinney and his

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colleagues have been left looking ridiculous following the recovery in

:18:54.:19:00.

the UK over the past year. They told us relentlessly over the past five

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years that the austerity programme would choke off any recovery, that

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we would never see the economy grow and their hat to be a plan B. Time

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after time we heard SNP spokespeople trotting out these lines and they

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have been proven wrong. The economy is growing faster than virtually any

:19:24.:19:28.

other Western economy as a result of those decisions the UK government

:19:29.:19:34.

took. It is right we congratulate the UK government and we recognise

:19:35.:19:37.

the benefit to Scotland from the Autumn Statement. Scottish

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businesses will benefit by 45 million through the scrapping of

:19:44.:19:46.

employers national short runs contributions for the under 21. And

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a consequence of ?308 million of the decisions taken by George Osborne.

:19:55.:20:03.

Jamie Hepburn, you have been made to look ridiculous according to Mr

:20:04.:20:07.

Fraser with the growth projections revised upwards. I do not think so.

:20:08.:20:17.

You made the point, Andrew, that in terms of where growth is now, and

:20:18.:20:24.

2015, it is lower than forecast in 2010 and it is interesting to hear

:20:25.:20:29.

Murdo Fraser and talk of the UK economy growing faster than any

:20:30.:20:34.

other developed country, which is predicted by the office of budget

:20:35.:20:40.

responsibility. It is interesting to see the conservative than an

:20:41.:20:43.

spokesperson leading the debate for the Tories. He was with me at the

:20:44.:20:47.

Finance committee last week and we had a professor, David Bell, telling

:20:48.:20:52.

us that forecast record of the office the budget responsibility is

:20:53.:21:00.

not that good. Labour are in an awkward position. We heard is the

:21:01.:21:04.

mantra that their hat to be a plan B, but when you hear these figures,

:21:05.:21:09.

you hear about the economy growing, does it leave you in a difficult

:21:10.:21:14.

position? In your amendment, you focus on calling for the Scottish

:21:15.:21:17.

government to use more money for childcare. That is right. I feel

:21:18.:21:24.

sorry for Murdo Fraser in a way because this is an attempt by the

:21:25.:21:29.

Tories here to get in on George Osborne's Autumn Statement, which

:21:30.:21:34.

was meant to proclaim the recovery had happened and austerity worked,

:21:35.:21:39.

and that unravels. The day after, opinion polls showed that 70% of the

:21:40.:21:44.

public do not believe there is a recovery, which is not surprising.

:21:45.:21:50.

In general, people are ?1600 a year worse off than when the Tories came

:21:51.:21:54.

to power. We can argue about numbers on the deficit, but people do not

:21:55.:22:01.

feel a recovery because their wages are worth less and they buy less.

:22:02.:22:11.

They feel a squeeze. There is an opportunity for the SNP in the

:22:12.:22:15.

Autumn Statement. He is correct when he says there are over ?300 million

:22:16.:22:20.

of consequence, additional money coming to the Scottish government

:22:21.:22:25.

over the next two years. That is what our amendment focuses on. We

:22:26.:22:32.

say to the SNP, since they launched the White Paper on childcare, the

:22:33.:22:37.

importance and the transformational power of extending childcare, and

:22:38.:22:40.

when asked why they would not do that, they said they did not have

:22:41.:22:45.

the money. They do have money now. They should use it for this

:22:46.:22:51.

priority, we say. Murdo Fraser, it is a cost of living crisis, that is

:22:52.:22:56.

the Labour mantra. I would say gently to him that it was not a

:22:57.:23:01.

Conservative government that was in power when the economic crisis

:23:02.:23:07.

happened. We are dealing with a legacy of economic mismanagement

:23:08.:23:11.

taken by the previous government. It lasted longer than we hoped, the

:23:12.:23:16.

recession, which we saw across the euro zone. We are coming out of

:23:17.:23:21.

that. The Labour Party needs to take responsibility with the decisions

:23:22.:23:26.

they took in government. We saw from Ed Balls last week and today, no

:23:27.:23:31.

access items from the Labour Party for the current state of the

:23:32.:23:35.

economy. We know times are hard. They are starting to get better,

:23:36.:23:40.

slowly, and that is good news. It was not the Conservative government

:23:41.:23:44.

that cause that to happen. The second point he put to Mr Byrne. Mr

:23:45.:23:52.

Graves says you can use the money to pay for childcare provision. -- Iain

:23:53.:23:58.

Gray. This is the hope in Scotland's future, the White Paper,

:23:59.:24:05.

why not use the money now? I agree, people at the sharp end of the

:24:06.:24:11.

economy would question the recovery and I agree with the comments that

:24:12.:24:17.

Iain Gray made. In terms of childcare, he made the point about

:24:18.:24:21.

the money coming for a two-year period. He had put in a childcare --

:24:22.:24:27.

if you put a childcare policy in, it has to be for the long-term. We have

:24:28.:24:33.

ambitious plans. We just heard in the statement from John Swinney, the

:24:34.:24:37.

extension of the number of hours per year. Going up from 475 up to 600.

:24:38.:24:46.

At the heart of the White Paper we have a proposal to have every child

:24:47.:24:55.

over the age of one getting the childcare, costing ?700 million a

:24:56.:25:00.

year, there is no way we could afford that under devolution. We

:25:01.:25:09.

have two leave it there. Thanks. The body of Nelson Mandela is lying in

:25:10.:25:13.

state in Pretoria. Thousands of people are queuing to pay their

:25:14.:25:16.

respects. Mr Mandela died last Thursday and many people across

:25:17.:25:18.

Scotland have been remembering their role in the anti-apartheid campaign.

:25:19.:25:21.

Yesterday in Parliament, MSPs gave their tributes to the former ANC

:25:22.:25:26.

leader. He provided an example to people across the planet and

:25:27.:25:30.

encouraged us to live up to our better natures. He inspired us to

:25:31.:25:34.

work for the day in the words that resounded around the parliament that

:25:35.:25:41.

when it was open, . Today, this Parliament extends our condolences

:25:42.:25:48.

to the great man's family and to the people of South Africa. The world is

:25:49.:25:52.

much poorer for his passing, but much richer for his life. When

:25:53.:26:00.

Nelson Mandela walked out of jail, tall, dignified, smiling, unbroken,

:26:01.:26:06.

how many found hope again? A belief that change may be possible because

:26:07.:26:12.

of this man and because of the decisions to Roy Cott and support

:26:13.:26:15.

sanctions and to challenge investment in South Africa --

:26:16.:26:22.

boycott. That work could make a difference and there was a point in

:26:23.:26:27.

politics and campaigning. He was the best of Africa and humanity, he was

:26:28.:26:32.

the best of us all. Many members of my party did not reckon lies

:26:33.:26:37.

apartheid for the grave violation of human dignity it was and did not act

:26:38.:26:43.

the struggle to end it. It is a stain on the party as they find

:26:44.:26:46.

themselves on the wrong side of history. Nelson Mandela did not just

:26:47.:26:52.

speak for South Africa, but to the world. His message of faith,

:26:53.:26:56.

forgiveness and human dignity makes him a man for all time. Today as we

:26:57.:27:03.

reflect his life, he lifts is up to work to a better world, where, as he

:27:04.:27:09.

said, we close the circle and we howled the advent of a glorious

:27:10.:27:14.

summer of a partnership for freedom, peace, prosperity and friendship.

:27:15.:27:23.

Consigning war, poverty and racism and injustice to history might seem

:27:24.:27:29.

impossible. We will need the sense of justice, the courage, the

:27:30.:27:33.

resilience and humanity who showed if we are ever to be able to say as

:27:34.:27:38.

he did, it always seems in possible until it is done. -- impossible. We

:27:39.:27:49.

can speak to Mike and weighed again. Many memories of Nelson

:27:50.:27:51.

Mandela. -- -- Mike Wade. There were fantastic

:27:52.:28:11.

scenes. At football matches, a minute's applause. Everywhere I have

:28:12.:28:15.

been. People remember. It is right they are in motion. As one pointed

:28:16.:28:26.

out, the stain on her party, an interesting article by Brian Wilson

:28:27.:28:30.

in the Scotsman newspaper saying that those who campaigned against

:28:31.:28:33.

apartheid were not numerous in Scotland. In specific periods he was

:28:34.:28:41.

talking about that was true. He said there is a need to look at history,

:28:42.:28:51.

warts and all. This was when Peter Hain cut his political teeth, and

:28:52.:28:56.

Brian Wilson, these people were arrested. They were treated badly.

:28:57.:29:02.

They were not popular. Rugby crowds booed them when they wanted the tour

:29:03.:29:07.

to go ahead. She was very good to point that out, saying we were not

:29:08.:29:11.

always on the right side. Interesting but Alex Salmond quoted

:29:12.:29:25.

Robert Burns. When you think of the slave plantation and the massive

:29:26.:29:35.

Rhondda. The fact of history. A lot -- -- massive wrong. Over the past

:29:36.:29:44.

few weeks we have cupboards -- cover the debate on plans to abolish

:29:45.:29:52.

corroboration. The centuries old legal measure requires evidence from

:29:53.:29:54.

two sources in criminal trials. Yesterday, experts giving evidence

:29:55.:29:57.

to the Justice Committee were asked whether there were enough safeguards

:29:58.:30:00.

in the Criminal Scotland Bill to avoid miscarriages of justice if it

:30:01.:30:03.

was removed. This will sound like a circular argument. The fact there is

:30:04.:30:07.

a requirement for sufficiency of evidence is more important than

:30:08.:30:11.

people have recognised, because, in fact, given the tendency for the

:30:12.:30:18.

legal profession to be quite conservative, they will not need to

:30:19.:30:22.

look far in the interpretation of sufficiency to find that they

:30:23.:30:27.

discover corroboration would provide the sufficiency. Again, I suspect

:30:28.:30:33.

the discussion will come full circle and in order for prosecutors and the

:30:34.:30:40.

jury, particularly with sexual offences and domestic abuse, and in

:30:41.:30:45.

cases involving children, I think that juries will look to have the

:30:46.:30:50.

security of something equivalent to corroboration in order to achieve

:30:51.:30:55.

sufficiency. They will be charged by the judge to find that. You would

:30:56.:31:03.

find that into sources. If it went to the Scottish Law commission, it

:31:04.:31:07.

could have a detailed look at other safeguards, would sufficiency ensure

:31:08.:31:16.

that you would be protected from the credible but lying witness? We heard

:31:17.:31:24.

the Cabinet Secretary stressed he wants to widen access to justice. I

:31:25.:31:30.

wonder what the view is about whether or not this will result in

:31:31.:31:36.

more prosecutions, but not necessarily more convictions. We

:31:37.:31:45.

have seen evidence from the police and the Crown office suggesting

:31:46.:31:49.

there would be additional prosecutions. We know from evidence

:31:50.:31:55.

that it is very difficult to get a conviction without corroboration, so

:31:56.:32:00.

the ultimate number of convictions would be unlikely to go up. The

:32:01.:32:05.

danger with abolishing it is it is unlikely that you create another --

:32:06.:32:13.

a number of wrongful convictions but you let cases through the net.

:32:14.:32:21.

Numbers are likely to be small. The point was made about sending people

:32:22.:32:26.

to court, which is a risky prosecution that fails. The party

:32:27.:32:32.

would be acquitted. They took the view that the woman would rather go

:32:33.:32:36.

to court. What do you say about that? I do not see court as therapy.

:32:37.:32:44.

If it was better that they got to tell their story, there would then

:32:45.:32:47.

be a culture change in the judiciary. I cannot add anything to

:32:48.:32:56.

your comments. There is difficulty with seeing court as a therapeutic

:32:57.:33:00.

process. It is not a view that is expressed very often by people who

:33:01.:33:04.

have been through the process. Now to Prime Minister's Questions where

:33:05.:33:08.

David Cameron and Ed Miliband have criticised plans to award MPs and

:33:09.:33:14.

11% pay rise. The Prime Minister said the recommendations of the

:33:15.:33:17.

Parliamentary watchdog would be simply unacceptable.

:33:18.:33:21.

Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, does the Prime Minister agree with me that

:33:22.:33:28.

given the crisis ordinary families are facing in their living

:33:29.:33:32.

standards, MPs should not be awarded a pay rise many times above

:33:33.:33:37.

inflation? I do agree with him about that issue. It would be wrong for

:33:38.:33:41.

MPs to get a big pay rise at a time of public sector pay restraint. All

:33:42.:33:45.

three party leaders agree on that, we have all made that point, and we

:33:46.:33:50.

should be clear that what they have said is not a final recommendation.

:33:51.:33:54.

The reason this is not the right time for this pay rise is because

:33:55.:33:56.

most people are going through the biggest cost of living crisis in a

:33:57.:34:00.

generation, and I want to turn to that cost of living crisis. Last

:34:01.:34:05.

Thursday, the Chancellor claimed living standards were rising. That

:34:06.:34:13.

is just not the case, is it? I thought the Institute of fiscal

:34:14.:34:15.

studies put this very clearly, they said, we have had a great big

:34:16.:34:20.

recession, we have had the biggest recession in a hundred years. It

:34:21.:34:24.

would be astonishing if household incomes had not fallen and earnings

:34:25.:34:29.

had not fallen, but the fact is that is the legacy of what they left us.

:34:30.:34:44.

A great start. Can I thank the Prime Minister for saving my marriage?

:34:45.:34:52.

Carolyn was just about to sign the divorce papers when she heard the

:34:53.:34:56.

report that if we stayed together we would be in line for a sweet ?150 a

:34:57.:35:03.

year tax break. But if, as the Prime Minister says, marriage must be

:35:04.:35:10.

underpinned by the tax system, why is it since the tax allowance was

:35:11.:35:14.

abolished the divorce rate has gone down? I am delighted happiness is

:35:15.:35:22.

maintained in the Harris household, but I could put it another way. It

:35:23.:35:26.

was only when I started talking about the allowance that the Leader

:35:27.:35:32.

of the Opposition tied the knot. The tax system moves in mysterious ways.

:35:33.:35:39.

Abolishing roaming charges is one of the big victories for British

:35:40.:35:41.

consumers we might get from remaining in the European Union. As

:35:42.:35:46.

the Prime Minister had the opportunity to discuss international

:35:47.:35:49.

mobile phone usage with any other European heads of government in the

:35:50.:35:56.

last day off -- last day? You could say, in a roundabout way. You should

:35:57.:36:00.

always remember that television cameras are always on, but I would

:36:01.:36:04.

say Nelson Mandela Place an extraordinary role in his life and

:36:05.:36:08.

death of bringing people together, and when a member of the Kinnock

:36:09.:36:11.

family ask for a photograph I thought it only polite to say yes. A

:36:12.:36:18.

reference to the photograph David Cameron was taking yesterday at the

:36:19.:36:22.

Nelson Mandela tribute. Our correspondent is standing by. It is

:36:23.:36:28.

over to you. Thank you. I promise I will not take a photograph. There

:36:29.:36:33.

will be discussion about what people might call self-interest. MPs

:36:34.:36:39.

getting an 11% pay increase. How can they justify it? Can they do

:36:40.:36:42.

anything to stop it? Joining me are Angus MacNeil and Jeremy Purvis. He

:36:43.:36:51.

has recently taken his seat in the House of Lords. Jeremy Purvis, you

:36:52.:36:56.

were in Hollywood, no Westminster, it does not affect you directly.

:36:57.:37:03.

This is dreadful, isn't it? A committee recommending a pay

:37:04.:37:10.

increase. Yes, and especially what sacrifices workers have had over the

:37:11.:37:14.

last couple of years, I think there is an indefensible position. I am

:37:15.:37:19.

pleased that the Scottish parliament have made a decision to break the

:37:20.:37:25.

link. I think many of your viewers would be confused as to why there

:37:26.:37:28.

was a link, but that is how the system was established. I think many

:37:29.:37:34.

senior MPs in my party have said they would not take it anyway, so

:37:35.:37:40.

they are trying to send a strong signal. Angus MacNeil, how can this

:37:41.:37:47.

problem be resolved? It is an independent committee. They come up

:37:48.:37:56.

with the recommendation and now you could be embarrassed if it goes

:37:57.:38:05.

ahead. MPs are seething because they are left to come and defend or

:38:06.:38:09.

explain. I am an string the question but it should be IPSA and soaring.

:38:10.:38:18.

-- and syringa question. -- giving the answer to the question. There is

:38:19.:38:26.

no way this can be justified at all. Where are IPSA? They should be

:38:27.:38:31.

defending the ludicrous idea. In fairness, they will probably come

:38:32.:38:38.

out and give their cancers. -- answers. Surely no MPs cannot set

:38:39.:38:47.

their own wages? They are not, this is independent, I do not have

:38:48.:38:51.

anything to do with this, I think the situation is a mess. The mood of

:38:52.:39:01.

MPs across political parties is they have left MPs with eggs on their

:39:02.:39:09.

faces. This is the issue of IPSA, it is nothing to do with me or the MPs.

:39:10.:39:13.

They should sort this out and they should not be suggesting this at a

:39:14.:39:21.

time like this. I cannot say this is justified. Jeremy Purvis, you

:39:22.:39:26.

alluded that the Scottish Parliament might separate. -- separate what

:39:27.:39:36.

they get. The trouble is, if you do separate that, is there a temptation

:39:37.:39:42.

for MSPs to set their own page? I think that discussions are positive,

:39:43.:39:48.

but it does not necessarily mean the link should be broken with the

:39:49.:39:55.

allowances scheme, the Parliament in Scotland put in a more open and

:39:56.:39:58.

transparent scheme that I operated under as an MSP, I did not have the

:39:59.:40:03.

controversy that this institution had when I was in Holyrood. That was

:40:04.:40:10.

the MSPs themselves. Having a system that was more open, greater

:40:11.:40:16.

accountability, there can be some areas where you set the parameters

:40:17.:40:19.

of what a public representative should have as their pay and

:40:20.:40:23.

conditions. Within that, there can be independent bodies that make sure

:40:24.:40:27.

it is fleeced, administered, and the crucial aspect is transparency. --

:40:28.:40:37.

policed. It is a week since the Autumn Statement at Westminster, for

:40:38.:40:42.

very obvious reasons, over shadowed by what happened in South Africa.

:40:43.:40:47.

One week later, does the Autumn Statement still look as though it

:40:48.:40:51.

will get growth back to where it is needed? I hope so, and certainly

:40:52.:40:54.

some of the measures will be positive for Scotland. One measure

:40:55.:40:59.

that has not had the profile it deserves is getting rid of the

:41:00.:41:01.

national insurance contribution for under 21. My own area in the

:41:02.:41:08.

Borders, in the rural areas of Scotland, MPs will begin in support

:41:09.:41:15.

to help young people. -- be given support. It means there is extra

:41:16.:41:18.

money to the Scottish budget. That means there is pressure on the SNP

:41:19.:41:22.

Government to make sure that they make a contribution, but as far as

:41:23.:41:26.

supporting an economy that is starting to grow and the

:41:27.:41:31.

contribution that Lib Dems have made for macroeconomic growth, it is

:41:32.:41:35.

positive for Scotland. Angus MacNeil, is it going to get growth

:41:36.:41:39.

back? The policies that have been followed by the Chancellor have

:41:40.:41:44.

delayed growth. The economy is smaller than it was in 2010. Workers

:41:45.:41:50.

are worst off. That is unprecedented. We have passenger

:41:51.:41:56.

duty strangling growth in Scotland, it is a management tool for

:41:57.:42:00.

Heathrow. The answers are not the answer is for Scotland, which is why

:42:01.:42:06.

people will vote Yes and move powers to Scotland. Only then can we get

:42:07.:42:09.

the right policies to fit the Scottish economy rather than being

:42:10.:42:14.

with the asperity of George Osborne -- austerity. It is a fairly safe

:42:15.:42:21.

bet that the 18th of September might, in conversation once or twice

:42:22.:42:26.

in the coming year. From us, goodbye.

:42:27.:42:32.

I am joined once again by Mike Wade. One final thought. MPs are cotton

:42:33.:42:42.

between a rock and a hard place with their salary. -- caught. They have

:42:43.:42:51.

outsourced it and nobody is happy. I cannot see any MP coming forward to

:42:52.:42:54.

say that they deserve the rise. I think they should be fairly

:42:55.:43:01.

well-paid. I think MPs land up about the same level of popularity with

:43:02.:43:07.

journalists but I think they do an important job. The mistake was

:43:08.:43:13.

perhaps not when the expenses scandal came up, which is really

:43:14.:43:17.

tied with how cruelly paid they are, to land the boil. -- hourly paid --

:43:18.:43:29.

poorly. Scotland has separated the salaries, MSPs will have lower

:43:30.:43:33.

salaries. That is probably for them, I suppose. Fair enough. Mike

:43:34.:43:39.

Wade, thank you for your company. That is all we have time for this

:43:40.:43:43.

week. We are back at the same time next week. 2:30pm on BBC Two. It

:43:44.:43:49.

will be the final programme of the year. Thanks for your company.

:43:50.:43:50.

Goodbye.

:43:51.:43:52.

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