19/06/2013 Politics Scotland

Welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up: The finance secretary

opens up his books. John Swinney will update Parliament on his

finances and any cash he has left over. Calls for sex education at a

much earlier age from a Holyrood committee.

And at Westminster, bashing the bankers. MPs agree that bankers to

break the law should go to jail. Stricter that top story now. The

Prime Minister has backed a call to allow criminal charges against key

brand -- bankers... Lord McFall, the Labour peer, was

one of the members of the Banking Standards Commission. What we found

his standards are abysmally low, and culture is rotten. So we need

to ensure that rather than collective responsibility which

existed up to now, in other words we were all in it, no one

particular was to blame, there is individual accountability.

Penalties against bankers who claimed responsibility, I say yes.

Also major banks are in receipt of taxpayers' money, and you can claw

back bonuses though -- bonuses. am joined with Gillian Bowditch who

writes for the Sunday Times, and Douglas Fraser. Interesting hearing

from those characters involved in the report. Do you think this

report will work? There is a lot more beneath this. It could change

if it is adopted, and it is easy for politicians to buy a into this

means of changing the culture of banking. The behaviour of bankers,

the incentives they have got to behave the way they do, that is

partly about personal responsibility or accountability

for specific tasks, which would be driven into the banks. It is also

about paying bonuses. That motivates bankers. If that is

constructed with the help of regulators, that could help

maintain behaviour. They are not saying there is a cap on bonuses,

which people were saying last year. And they are not examining what is

being paid for, what the job of a banker is and who game's most

within the bank. There are elements there that they may be able to

change. What is also significant is that they say there is not enough

competition and diversity. The banks tend to look similar. They

say there is a big problem there. They are going to it in a lot of

detail but do not have a lot of solutions as to how to change that.

A lot of banks withdrew five years ago from the British market, making

the British banks more important. The Prime Minister looked as if he

was in favour of these penalties taking the wind out of Ed

Miliband's sells. It is not a big thing for the Prime Minister to

sign up to. This question of diversity has been kicked back into

the government's campaign. They think they hoped this would buy

time. This time last year, the LIBOR scandal, that is why this was

set up. It has kicked people around the Westminster committee rooms

effectively, but it has raised questions which are now back with

the Government. This is the kind of report that the public really want

to see, bankers behind Bars us. That is right. The report has been

well received. We have seen Sir Fred Goodwin was his knighthood,

but we have not seen accountability. -- lose his knighthood. We have

only seen two bankers in the public life suffering humiliation. We have

all been victims of the banking crisis. The big problem will be

implementation. Howard are we going to implement this? Bankers are good

at wriggling out of the kind of suggestions that have been made in

the past to try and bring them to bits. -- book. The directors of the

Bank should be in the spotlight, they were on board when this

happened. Interesting words in the report about the state-owned banks.

How might they be disposed of back into the price of its sector?

Starting with Lloyds, we can expect to you more about this from the

Lord Chancellor tonight in London. He will say more about how this

begins to get sold off. More complex as this Royal Bank of

Scotland, 81% owned by the taxpayer. They cannot find a way to get it

broken up. That is partly because we do not know how to break it up.

You could take the good assets, sell it into the market, and create

a bad bank, and hope that it does not explode and pleasantly, or you

could break it up in different ways, splitting the risky investment bank

from the utility bank we need. You could split commercial banking from

personal banking, or you could take the big band and split it up so

that it serves the nations and regions. We have very big banks for

the size of country that we are. There are so many ways to skin a

cat. A lot of them take a lot of complexity and time, and a lot of

cost. They also changed course from what we have been doing for the

past few years. That is one aspect of this, the Government need to

look into this. Thank you. Aqua due shortly. Unifying

Scotland's police service into one for us has attracted a lot of

negative publicity, but the same has been going on at the fire

service, but it has slipped under the radar. Those involved have

dated the Justice Committee yesterday. We see no discernible

negative impact in partnership relations as a result of police and

fire reform. I do not think it is any secret that there have been

difficulties in terms of governance and oversight. Would the panel

offer any advice and how you managed to deliver things

apparently with little upset? And having listened to an earlier panel

with a great deal of commitment and universal support, what was the

secret of delivering gas fire and to the future and what advice would

you give? -- thus far. I would love to take the credit for this, but

the foundations were set long before myself or the chief was

appointed, that was a partnership that was developed between the

people looking at how they take the service for would into a single

service. So the foundation was set for that partnership, taking on

board and having regular meetings and discussions, and listening to

what staff were saying. The partnership between the Services,

the government and the staff from the Foundation for how we bring

things forward. We have carried on from that. If we get to a stage

where the service feels we are doing something to them and not in

conjunction with them, that is where we will hit problems others

have. I intend we do not get to that position, that we work in

partnership to deliver. If it had not been for partnership working,

it would have been a more difficult challenge than it was. It was in

relation to the separation of the sport functions and the service to

love grey area. I cannot... What I can say is that we have been a

successful organisation, we have reduced the number of primary fires

in Scotland by about 40% over the last decade. Wrigley, the staff who

work on the frontline get much of the credit for that, but I am clear

that support staff are enabling staff. The fact that they service

the vehicles, the fact that they do the strategic planning, that they

paid people enables the from service committee to allow that to

happen. What we have is an organisation where everyone

understands that they are enabling the frontline to happen, they are

making sure that those improvements are going to happen and they can

clearly see where they're going to contribute to it. I think it is a

strength of the Scottish Fire and rescue service that we are part of

Fatah organisation and are not separate it. Now to live coverage

of the chamber at Holyrood. John Swinney is opening his account to

MSPs, explaining how much money has been spent over the financial year,

and how many he has left -- how much he has left, if any. It looks

as if he always balances the books but it looks like he likes to keep

a little bit but as well. -- a little bit back. Everyone knows you

keep a little back for emergencies. Next year will be a big year for

the SNP. They have the independence referendum and the eyes of the

world on them with the Commonwealth Games, the Ryder Cup and the

anniversary of Bannockburn. So next year is a key here and I suspect he

would like to have a little in reserve just in case. Thank you.

Let us go to the chamber. This is the ring-fenced element of

the Budget intended to cover appreciation and technical

accounting items. �65 million of this underspend relates to less

than anticipated write-down of the current book valuation of the

income-contingent repayment student loan book. A further �22 million is

due to lower than and... The 2012/13 Public Expenditure Analysis

is due to be published in July by her Majesty's Treasury, which will

place on records the provisional outturn, which includes cash and

not cash. This will represent under Spence of 261 million, 150 million,

and 29 million respectively. Parliament will wish to note that

the devolved administration budget exchange mechanism will be utilised

for the second year. Since devolution, the Scottish Government

have the facility to carry forward any unspent budget to future years,

which was known as India for flexibility -- end-year flexibility.

The Scottish government had allowed limited flexibility to carry

forward of to see the 0.6% of its resource budget and 1.5% of its

capital budget. This equates to a cap this year of �200 million in

total. In 2011/12 we carried forward �179 million in the Budget

exchange mechanism for use in 2012/13. This year we will carry

forward the same amount of 179 million to be utilised in 2013/14.

In the budget for those years we had factored into her plans �150

million carried forward. We have delivered the plan. Accordingly I

am pleased to inform Parliament that the balance of the flip -- the

fiscal underspend, �21 million, will be carried forward to augment

existing spending plans. The sums to be this -- deployed will be

confirmed in the Budget revision in autumn. A modest Cabinet underspend

emerged to two-timing differences between demand and the availability

of funding and capital budgets. There is a �5.3 million underspend

in they are been regeneration programme which is a demand-led

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 80 seconds

In December 2012, I announced a �205 million investment package

ovens -- construction and maintenance projects. I will write

to the finance committee setting out the full details of the 2012/13

Azores and cupboard door switches once the details are finalised.

Budget choices have enabled the Scottish Government to focus on

youth unemployment. These have included 25,000 Modern

Apprenticeship opportunities in each year of the current Parliament

and an additionally �30 million. We will maintain the education

maintenance allowance which has been abolished in England. We

encourage private sector investment and provide security through

Scottish households which included supporting growth and companies

through the loan fund, providing businesses with the was generous

rates. Her actions against priorities help to support the

Scottish economy. A clear picture is emerging of the journey Scotland

has made since my last statement. Output in Scotland was contracting

this time last year, but now the picture is more encouraging. Output

picked up and we saw returned to positive growth last year. -- a

return to positive growth. Scotland has seen an improvement in its

labour market with employment levels rising. There is a positive

outlook for 2013, with private sector are activity expanding for

the 8th consecutive month at a rate of 51.4, which is significantly

faster than the rate of expansion On the basis of the UK Budget

announcement, we are dealing with As previously notified, we will

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 80 seconds

These figures show the competent financial management and the

resources at our disposal. Cabinet Secretary will now take

questions. I will allowed 20 Can I thank the Secretary for

advanced notice of this statement and recognise that we share common

ground in opposing the approach to public financing of the Tory

government. We are here to scrutinise the decisions taken by

the Scottish government and I would note there are a number of the

missions today including any mention of the �333 million underspend in

his planned programme. I have to say I am also disappointed to hear a

reference to the Scottish government's notorious shovel ready

programme but no update on exactly how many shovels are actually in the

ground. Turning to the announcement the Minister has made the Cabinet

Secretary points out he has committed 158 million of his 100 and

79 million underspend. The majority seems to come from an underspend to

housing budget and has been recommitted to housing along with an

additional 5.9 million which is to be welcomed. Given that he revisited

his housing budget cuts four times in the last financial year, he tried

again in the budget this year and here he is trying to have a sixth

attempt to rewrite the wrong. Does he not think it would have been

better to have listened to those in the industries in the first place

and have incremented Labour's budget for housing. I will ask you here he

is content with this budget this year because it is the lowest number

of housing completions since the depression. Can I ask the secretary

why there is nothing in his statement on the impact on further

education, in particular can I ask him to explain the relationship

between his cuts to Scotland's colleges and the 700 jobs lost in

further education in the last year alone?

That was Labour's Ken Macintosh in the chamber.

Let's get some political analysis from Brian Taylor who has been

watching the statement at Holyrood. Thanks for joining. Let us rewind to

the beginning. An awful lot of facts and figures there. Can you help put

it in text. What was John Swinney putting out their? He was opening up

his books and shivering as the underspend.

First of all, Scotland has a blog budget, a fixed sum. Ministers often

say they are operating within a fixed sum. They can vary it with tax

powers that Holyrood has but no one since the establishment of Holyrood

does so because it is thought to have brought in more grief. Within

that fixed sum you have to spend short because there is currently no

borrowing powers. They are coming through soon. John Swinney was

announcing that they had fallen short by �179 million in terms of

expenditure. He then announced and confirmed that he anticipated by

shrewd alkylation that there would be a sum along those lines of a.

Apparently that is already budgeted for. He has �21 million extra to

deal with in capital expenditure and he was hinting fairly firmly that

that would go towards the housing sector. He was indicating that one

of the recipients and Ken Macintosh responding that housing had been

neglected. I think the rules of the game state

that �200 million is the maximum cap. That is allowed so you get up

to that point before any of the cash goes to Westminster.

In years gone by, we had and your flexibility which was a limited

system by which many generally underspent went back to the

Treasury. That resulted into things. Either a rush at the end of the year

to catch up, to spend money and perhaps that's being necessarily

wise, or a shortfall that went back to Downing Street. Under the new

arrangement negotiated between Scotland and the Treasury, there is

the capacity to carry forward that many. As we heard from John

Swinney, he has already calculated that there would be a carry-forward

son and has budgeted for that. We have other elements to the statement

as well and the fact that he is expecting there to be further cuts.

In terms of the Barnett formula, those departments in England and the

rest of the UK on which Barnett is based, there has tended to be

support for education and support for the health service. The impact

upon Scotland may be mitigated eye that, if the cuts for particularly,

on defence. There is a fight going on there and that doesn't fall

through in the Scottish government budget. There could be an impact

there. We had the second element. The statement on the carry-forward

of money and secondly the further cuts to come. The indication of the

general state of the economy and it was relatively upbeat from John

Swinney. You mentioned that he is perhaps

anticipating more cuts from Westminster but how much money do

you think he has got to play with for next year at the top of the

programme we were talking about a key for Scotland next year and he

probably wants to have a bit extra in his back pocket?

He probably does but it doesn't look as though he will have it. There is

some carry-forward but that is budgeted for. The expectation is

when the Chancellor gives us his spending statement in the next

couple of weeks, that will result in yet further cuts for Scotland. That

could be mitigated by a calculation as to where precisely the axe

falls. OK, Brian. A computed issue made

simple. Thank you. Now two prime ministers questions

where banking dominated affairs. The prime ministers said the government

would amend the Banking Bill to impose penalties on those who fall

foul of the law. His comments came after a range of MPs said reckless

bankers should be jailed and an end to rewarding failure.

On the specific issues of criminal penalties, I am glad he supports the

proposal but will he confirm for the house this important issue that the

government will put down the appropriate amendments to the

Banking Bill which is currently going through Parliament to make

sure this gets on the statute book as soon as possible.

We will be using that Bill to take these important steps and the key

thing is we have that opportunity. First of all because we have said

that there should be a Parliamentary enquiry that can be done rapidly

rather than a public enquiry that he supported. If we had done that, we

would just about be getting giving with the enquiry. Instead of that we

have a good enquiry with good results and we can have strong

legislation as well. Just to be clear, if the government

doesn't put down them as criminal penalties, we will in the Banking

Bill and we will make sure they have them. I think the Prime Minister

praises the Parliamentary and on the but let's turn to one of his

recommendations from last year's report. It says the government

should legislate for a general power to break up the banks, breaking up

high risk casino banking from high street banks. We think it's right,

the commission thinks it's right that the government is so far

refusing to increment. The part-time Chancellor is trying to give advice

to the Prime Minister! We think it's right. We think it's right. The

commission thinks it's right. But the government has so far refused to

implement that recommendation. Why isn't the government doing it?

First of all, I would rather listen to my Chancellor than listen to his

neighbour the Chatto Chancellor. -- the shadow chancellor. We remember

his advice. 125% mortgages. That's fine! A knighthood for Fred Goodwin.

That's fine! The biggest tanking best in British history. That's

fine! He was the city minister when all of this went wrong! And it is

this government that is clearing up the mess. We wouldn't have these

results without this excellent enquiry commissioned by this

government. We wouldn't be able to legislate if we didn't have the

excellent and King Bill provided by this government and in terms of his

question, we are putting a ring fence around retail banks, something

that in 13 years of a Labour government, although they were both

in the Treasury, they never got round to it.

I say to the Prime Minister we are not going to take lectures from the

guy who was the advisor on Black Wednesday in 1992.

May I warmly commend him for being the first Conservative prime

minister ever to commit to a referendum on Europe. And for

leading a government that has done more than any other government to

tackle welfare dependency, to reduce immigration and to bring in

academies. It is showing that there can be conservative, popular and

right at the same time. I am sure the prime minister would

like to wish all players the best for Wimbledon but looking to the

future, as he backed the schools tennis programme that is now in over

16,000 schools, including a number in my constituency, to help us find

a home-grown champion? I think my honourable friend is

quite right for this. Let us congratulate Andy Murray for his

victory at Queen 's club and wish him well for the Wimbledon

tournament. I think we should commend the LTA for the work they

are doing to try and make tennis much more of a mass participation

sport. I see it in the primary school my children go to come where

more tennis is being played. The lawn tennis Association has two

satisfy sport England and all the funding bodies that they are doing

everything they can to do that. Let's stay at Westminster now and

speak to our correspondence there. Good afternoon, David. A busy Prime

Minister 's questions. Let us look at the banking report. It seemed as

though the prime minister almost took the wind out of Ed Miliband's

fails when he said he was agreeing to grim nod penalties for bankers?

It was one of those occasions when somebody stand-ups and says, will

you do this? OK. Will you do that? Yes. The banking commission report

is highly significant, running to more than 500 pages and coming up

with a number of recommendations. One of them is the bankers who are

found guilty of reckless misconduct could be jailed and another one as

well that their bonuses could be deferred for up to ten years. You

can actually find out what banks have been up to. I think widespread

agreement in the House of Commons that most of the recommendations the

banking commission has come up with that political parties can live

with. The government will have time to formally assessed that and come

back with it. David Cameron is likely taking the wind out of Ed

Miliband's sales by saying, yes we will legislate the current Banking

Bill for this provision that those who are found guilty of reckless

misconduct could face jail. I think that is one of the main things. And

the fact it is going through in the Banking Bill this time means that he

will be able to use that. The Prime Minister is fresh back

from Northern Ireland after the G8 summit. He was updating MPs and

progress made at the G8 and I think he was saying it was very much a

pro-business agenda and that would be at the DNA of the G8 but they are

also tackling tax avoidance. That was one of the key aspects of

the G8 summit. Where they disagreed and where it was harder for David

Cameron to say he had everything he wanted was to do with Syria. We know

there were disagreements to do with Russia and other members of the G8

on what should be done, particularly post President Assad. We got an

adder dying form of words on Syria. Where David Cameron would feel a lot

happier are these pledges on tackling tax avoidance. Not just on

a domestic level but on an international level. There will be a

register of companies and swapping of information. Those are warm

words. The reality will be that when the G8 leaders and the leaders of

other nations get back to their countries, whether they will put

this into force. I think there is a wider issue here that perhaps in an

austerity world economy, all governments are finding that if they

have got large, multinational companies which are operating in

those countries, that they are not seen to pay a fair amount of tax,

the government have an argument that they have to make with their own

taxpayers who are being asked to pay increased taxes and I think there is

a feeling amongst many governments that if we are in an austerity world

economy, some of these businesses will have to pay their share. I

think David Cameron was very much pushing at an open door with the

other G8 leaders. Finally, I think the draft, the

Conservatives draft EU referendum bill was introduced in the House of

Commons. There was a leaked Labour memo which said the Prime Minister

didn't have the support of his backbenchers but we saw in prime

ministers questions the newly knighted Sir Edward giving quite a

show of support to the PM. The bill has had its first reading.

That is basically where it is read out in the House of Commons. It will

get its second reading in a couple of weeks on Friday the 5th of July

and that is where you will see many Conservative MPs coming out and

giving their support. They approve of what the Prime Minister has

done. Some would like it to be a government Bill but because of the

coalition deal they realise they can't have that. The second best

thing is from their point of view, is a bill that has a conservative

name attached to it. I think where the concern will come is later on in

the Parliamentary process, if for some reason it gets talked out or if

it goes to the House of Lords and it gets gunned up in the legislative

progress. I think at the moment you have a situation with as regards to

Europe, most Conservative MPs give him the benefit of the doubt because

they have now got a piece of Gillian is still with us. Let us

put upon something that David was speaking about. First of all the G8.

It was difficult for David Cameron over the Syrian issue. But he was

discussing the tax-avoidance agenda. Yes, fitting in with what the

public want to see, they want to see corporation tax paid by these

big companies. There is a real mood of unhappiness about companies like

Starbucks not paying tax in the country it sells its goods in. He

was tapping into the public mood, and there was consensus among the

other world leaders, this is an issue for all countries. Business

is going to help pull us out of the economic downturn, so it was a

carrot-and-stick. There are benefits in the new trade deal

coming between America and the EU which will benefit lots of

businesses, but only the ones who are abiding by the rules. The ones

who are not paying tax are going to be hit. The focus is on the tax

issues, and that helped gain consensus on set here. Holyrood is

calling for a national strategy to tackle the problem of teenage

pregnancies in Scotland. It was on the front page of the Daily Mail

today. A row over proposals to get the youngest teenagers to take the

contraceptive pill. It is unusual to have such high rates of teenage

pregnancy, almost the highest in Western Europe. Tens of millions of

pounds have been spent trying to do something about the bad rates of

teenage pregnancy and there has been little movement since about

1994, particularly among the youngest girls. Teenage pregnancies

in girls pretty much flat lined. Come down a little bit, those under

20 and 18. But it is not working. A lot of money and initiatives. This

is an interesting report which has taken a lot of evidence. On one

hand you have the Daily Mail response which is quite sensational,

but there are a lot of people looking at the issue and saying

that we need to more consistency in the education approach. Just now it

is down to the schools how they teach this. They have a lot of

input in the curriculum and material. It was better than others

in some areas. There is a call for greater consistency where it

becomes more or -- there is a call for greater consistency. Where it

becomes more controversial is with younger age groups, and the

availability of contraception. The committee has not called for

contraception to be made available through schools, but clearly there

are concerns that if 13 year-olds are having sex and needing

contraception that there are other issues at stake here. Education is

important and availability of contraception is important, but

this is a much wider issue, in which parents need to be involved a

lot more. We leave it to the schools, but other European

countries do not. You need to have more social support and family

support in these areas where pregnancy is a problem. Thank you

very much for highlighting some of those issues. Let us get some

political reaction from three MSPs. We have Bob Doris, Drew Smith from

the Scottish Labour, and Nanette Milne from the Scottish

Conservatives. First of all, Bob Doris, you are in the health

committee. What kind of national strategy do you think we need to

try to tackle the problem of teenage pregnancy?

The first thing I would say is that any new national strategy brought

forward by the Scottish government should not be imposed on local

authorities or health boards, but the Scottish government has to

consult on that. Any new national strategy should not be biological

based or based on the idea of morning-after pills or whatever,

but based on the issue of relationships and respectful

relationship between young people and increasing the aspirations of

young people. The idea of tackling teenage pregnancy has been for too

long a biological argument. Drew Smith, what are you looking for a

in this national strategy? Is there a problem with this kind of

strategy being imposed on people and schools? The key thing we are

looking for is a renewed focus on the issue of teenage pregnancy,

particularly pregnancy among girls under 16. We have not made the

progress we would have hoped. We came close to meeting the target of

reducing the pregnancy rate down to 6.8, but we were not able to do

that, we were still just above seven. It is the renewed focus that

we need to understand teenage pregnancy. There are lots of people

who will become parents at a young age he will do an excellent job,

but there is also an opportunity to assist people and plan and think

about whether they intend to become pregnant and to try to support them

to make the right decisions. Nanette Milne, the rates of teenage

pregnancy is falling in Scotland. But the target has been missed.

What is your solution to try to address quite an intractable

problem? The target has been narrowly missed in the 16 and

upwards age group, but there is a problem with the under 16 girls

becoming pregnant and not wanting to be. The committee was agreed on

this, and we have to look at the whole approach to sexual health and

relationships education and start but quite a young age this,

discussing relationships. As they get older and the sexual issue

arises, then we feel that there will be -- they will be more acquit

to make more positive decisions on whether they wish to become

involved in sexual activity. Do you have an age limit on when

contraceptive should not be handed out to children? Do you think 16

should be a cut off? Handing out contraceptives to children, that is

an emotive way of putting things. If people under 16 are embarking on

sexual activity, they should be advised on the consequences of that

and should know the consequences of it before embarking on it. They

should be given proper advice. But if they do actually indulge in

sexual activity and to need contraception, the committee felt

generally that should be available in an accessible way to the speed

will. Drew Smith, the you have a lower age limit for handing out

contraceptives? The issue about sex education in schools is what is age

appropriate. In terms of contraception, we need to

understand where people are sexually active having access to

contraception. Pregnancy is part of it but there are other issues. That

is about accepting where sexual activity takes place, it should be

saved. Bob Doris, the same question to use. I agree with Drew Smith, it

is about being age appropriate and behaviour of young people are

involved in, making sure we keep them safe. There are dancers in

relation to age when his lead to tabloid newspapers and we keep this

issue in the round, looking at how are missing? Scotland has high rates

of teenage pregnancy. I think it is in port to stress that

we agree teenage pregnancy rates in Scotland are falling. They are now

below the UK level but we have missed our target narrowly, in

relation to under 16 is. There is more we have to do and we have to

make sure we are making sure that people do not see teenage pregnancy

as being inevitable and there is work going on in Teeside at the

moment where they are seeing falls in teenage pregnancy in the last

five years. I think we can make further inroads.

When it comes to parents, how involved should they be?

What the committee is making clear is a whole range of people have to

be involved and schools need to take a active interest that parents are

essential to it and they need to be involved in understanding decisions

taken by the professionals, health boards and scores. Sometimes parents

would prefer to leave it to the parents to explain some of these

things but it is about supporting parents do feel they can be part of

that education process for the trial.

Nanette Milne, the convener of the health committee was making a point

today that it is often left to teachers to teach children and they

leave it feeling quite uncomfortable. How do we address

that problem? I think teachers need training in

this aspect but as has been said by my colleague, it is a partnership

approach that is needed and people involved with growing young people

should be equipped to give them the correct information at the

appropriate time. OK. Nanette Milne from the Scottish

Conservatives, Drew Smith from Labour and Bob Doris from the SNP.

Thank you. Let's head back to the chamber. A

different debate this time will stop the Victims and Witnesses Bill. It

aims to improve support available and put victims interest at the

heart of the justice system and ensure witnesses can fulfil their

public duty. Part of that entails more CCTV links so they can give

evidence without feeling threatened. Let's hear from the

justice secretary. Was the secretary saying that the

law is not compatible and what does he have to say to the children's

Commissioner who says that there is no issue with regard to children,

for example. I wouldn't have laws in this country

that weren't compatible because of the nature of this Parliament. I

think I can chew or Mr Chisholm of that. What we do wish to do is to

seek to challenge this legislation in relation to the right of the

individual seeking a charge to be dealt with and what we are hoping to

do is to work through a way in which we balance that of the accused but

has the opportunity for variations to raise the matter with the court

for the judiciary to provide. That will take away from the delivery in

this bill of making sure that vulnerable witnesses and indeed

witnesses have the right to express themselves. I think I can satisfy

him that no matters will be made worse in terms of what he refers to

in terms of children's hearing. I think we will have wider opportunity

to work upon the good work that will be provided for vulnerable

witnesses, equally, letting it with a few number of cases where there

may be a legitimate right at least two but that objection, ultimately,

to be considered by the judiciary. I will give further consideration to

this issue and I can confirm my officials have begun discussions

with... By all means. I think the Cabinet Secretary for

giving way. Would he share the concerns organisations like Scottish

women's aid that the challenge to the use of special measures may

actually increase circumstances of anxiety and reduce confidence among

witnesses about giving their evidence in court?

I don't believe so. I believe this will provide the overall desire of

what these agencies want. I met with Scottish women's aid recently. It

will provide that but it will ensure compliance to ensure that we are

away to some safety net and I do think this matter can be dealt with

appropriately, in balance. That is why we have started discussions but

I can give you the assurance that these discussions will not simply be

with the ground but they will be with agencies such as Scottish

women's aid to ensure we have the right balance. To put a duty on that

is organisations, to set out standards of service for the end and

witnesses, the committee suggested the standard should be set out in

statutory guidance to be approved by parliament along with details of the

supporting mechanism. It will be possible to set out each individual

set of circumstances in this way and I have been clear that these must be

organisation specific and I am concerned such an approach will slow

down the established that of the standard and I'm satisfied the

organisations will work together with input from victim support

organisations to create robust standards without the need for

further Parliamentary scrutiny. I have noted to the committee that I

am willing to consider further whether there should be a more

formal reporting mechanism monitor how it is working. Finally, I was

pleased to note the committee view that a compelling case has not been

made in the establishment of a commissioner. This is a view I

shared with several organisations including victim support Scotland

and Scottish women's aid, given the excellent work carried out by Al

victim support organisations in Scotland and I continue to believe

that the establishment of such a post would be deportation of

effort, an extra layer of bureaucracy that would mean that

limited resources will be better used in helping victims of crime. I

would like to turn to provision in the bill for the establishment and

operation of the National confidential forum. I would like to

thank the health and sport commission. I would like to thank

the witnesses who provided evidence and former residents of childcare

institutions who have shown great fortitude in coming forward to share

their views. We have listened with care and attention to those views

which will help ensure that the National confidential forum makes a

real difference to the lives of people placed in institutional care

as children by helping to prove their health and well-being and

contributing to the improvement of provision and support. I am

delighted there is widespread support for the establishment of the

forum and I'm heartened by the recognition of the value of

acknowledgement to people who are placed in institutional care as

children and in particular, survivors of abuse and neglect.

Those survivors have been asking for their experiences to be heard and

acknowledged for years and we are responding. In 2010 we acknowledged

the pilot. This pilot forum which only operated for a matter of months

was attended by nearly 100 former residents of a care home. The

evaluation of the experience showed clearly it was a positive value and

benefits to those who took part and they felt hurt and believed. It is

now our intention with this bill to extend that opportunity to all

people faced in institutional care as children in Scotland. The

experience of time to be heard clearly demonstrates that

acknowledgement is of value and is not a second-class option. It also

shows that the benefits for those people are not contingent on access

remedies. For some people, just as -- Justice remedies serve little

appeal. It was the Scottish government that approached to

develop a human rights framework to inform the development of what has

become the MCS. It was this approach would lead to the interaction

mentioned by several stakeholders who gave evidence. The Scottish

government is participating with an open mind. We do not intend to wait

for remedies which arise to take forward the establishment.

People should not be denied the opportunity to provide that

acknowledgement and give that benefit. In conclusion, presiding

officer... I'm sorry, I am being asked to wind up. I welcome the wide

support to the bill to date from justice and health arguments. We are

welcome to debate at stage one and that debate is open. I think the

presiding officer for her indulgence.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I now call on Christine Grahame who will

speak on the behalf of the justice secretary.

I speak for the Justice Committee. The lead committee in consideration

of this bill. Can I put something on the record before of that. I think I

feel a letter to standards procedures coming on. I've never

understood why in a stage one debate, the minister gives a

response to the conveners report on the half of the committee before the

conveners has reported to the chamber. It would be much more

useful if I got to say my stuff and then you have got to say, if you

will forgive me, your response afterwards. Much is probably

pre-empted but off I go anyway. There are two main purposes of the

bill. First is to improve the experience of witnesses and victims

and the focus of our consideration. The second is to create a National

confidential forum. I am sure that will be talked about. The

committee, my committee has already written to the health and sports

committee saying we should anticipate stage two, as we took no

evidence in respect of that part. That seems an appropriate division

of the bill. I thank those providing written submissions, giving oral

evidence to the committee and the committee members, always a pleasure

to chair the Justice Committee. Can I thank all those victims who spoke

to the committee members about their individual experiences of the

criminal justice system to bring a specially arranged private and

informal discussion. He themes from that session reflected by the

committee during its formal scrutiny of the girl and I know how difficult

it was for those people to speak to us about their experiences and in

fact, for many, although it happened five and ten years previous, they

were reliving them. It showed you the pain of the event and the

experience that the justice system had just gone below the surface. As

the Cabinet Secretary has said, I will not say that more than once,

committee has supported the general principles of the bill. It provides

much-needed support for victims and witnesses and many people in that

situation had hoped to never be in court in those positions and it is a

difficult position for them. That was Christine Grahame, the Fina

of the Justice Committee speaking live in Parliament. I am joined by

Gillian Bowditch, our physical commentator for the afternoon. That

is the stage one debate going on in Parliament. The Victims and

Witnesses Bill. I think victims have been calling for an improvement in

their rightful sometime -- and rights for some time.

Yes. The bill will be widely welcomed and anything that can make

a difficult experience easier, and a , located experience, often the

people who has experienced the crime is often marginalised. It is about

the organisation of the justice system. Having said that,

particularly when it comes to child witnesses, and has a good

arbitration. We haven't seen some of the problems that they have had down

in England when child witnesses have been very badly treated in the court

system so in terms of children, I think we do quite well but in terms

of all victims, this is a welcome Bill and I am sure it will go some

way to helping. Let's just turn our attention to one

other story. The Aberdeen Don said by-election. The SNP candidate is

the favourite but could there be a political upset?

I think it is unlikely the SNP is not going to win this election and

Bryan Adams is a well respected and well liked MP. He had a large

majority and it would be a huge political upset if the SNP were not

to win tomorrow. Where it becomes interesting, I think, is that you

look at what the majority is after the selection. What do Labour have

to do to be able to claim victory and at what stage can they say, we

have had the majority, or whatever, and claim victory. The sideshow is

UKIP. It has become a bit of an issue wherever the leader goes.

Thanks for that. That's all we have time for now. Join me next week at