21/11/2012 Politics Scotland

Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up: Mike Russell

is still standing, but the Education Secretary continues to be

under pressure over the college funding do battle. Let me make it

clear my apology is full and unreserved. It should not have

happened. The Scottish Government set out their goals to attract more

international conferences to our shores - that is the debate at

Holyrood this afternoon. Ahead of crucial talks on the

European Union budget which starts tomorrow, just how hard should

David Cameron fight? The Education Secretary offered a

full and unreserved apology yesterday for giving the wrong

information on college funding. Tomorrow, the issue will once again

be in the spotlight. The Liberal Democrats called for a debate on

further education and say there must be a fresh vote on funding,

given the revised figures. I am joined by a political commentator

this afternoon, George Kerevan. Let's look at this story and Mike

Russell. He is still standing, but there seems to be a considerable

amount of pressure on them. I have to confess that I spent 25 years

teaching in higher education. It is an issue close to my heart. Sadly I

have to say it does not set it head on fire. Whether there is anger in

the general public as there is Ben Holyrood, I do not think so. The

opposition parties have to be careful how they play this. If they

make the story about Mike Russell, privately he will know years and I

think clever guide, quite upfront, if they make it about time rather

than further education, then people outside of Holyrood will get

confused. It has to be about further education and the further

education funding strategy. Because I think it is that we, I do not

think Mike Russell's job is on the line at all. They seem to be key

main -- keeping up pressure. There is a debate tomorrow. The Liberal

Democrats are calling for those revised figures, a fresh vote on

those revised figures. Based J students need to know the real

figures. Do you think the real figures are out there? -- face-

saver students need to know. There should be a debate because further

education is an important subject. The Scottish Government operates on

a three-year former spending plan. We know what the budget was for

last year, we know what it was for this year. It was a modest one

million increase. At the end of last year there was some money left

over so the Scottish Government got some of that money and they gave an

extra boost to further education. If you look at what was spent in

total last year, there is more than the planned total for this year.

You would you that as a cut but it was not in the real sense. It was

clear how much money there was in the kitty. Colleges have to know

what is coming. I do not think there is a lack of clarity on a

five-year education level. The question is what is the future of

further education? The debate is quite a good thing to have. Just

this afternoon, some new figures came out. Mr Salmon's corrected a

Holyrood report. The actual figure is 11,000 now. Labour put out a

press release saying Salmon's lies instinctively. They have heat that

on the college issue and they're taking advice over independence. Do

you think there is a credibility problem appearing here? We have had

an SNP Government for five years on the Paul Stewart still commands

quite a favourable opinion amongst the Scottish public. -- the Pohl's.

I think we forget that. They have been in power for a long time. As I

said earlier, the opposition parties seem to make politics about

the people rather than the policies. Does that work in Scotland? I don't

know. Labour used the word today of liar. That is pretty strong. Do

people really think the First Minister lies all the time? I do

not think so. The actual story about the number of jobs and

renewables, it is impossible to calculate to the person. We will

have to leave it there. As we have been discussing, the

Mike Russell apology, let's see that. Hewitt ended a -- Hugh Henry

had asked why he had not resigned. Last week's inaccurate statement

was not based on what was said, but an understatement in 2011-12.

Although this additional funding was added in, I acknowledge this

end the debate last week. And I do so here again today. At the weekend,

we were encouraged to focus on the substantial issues facing colleges,

including funding. I welcome the debate currently underway. Let me

make clear again that my apology is full and unreserved. It is to the

whole chamber, including to Mr Henry. It should not have happened.

Presiding Officer, there should have been a full statement by Mike

Russell. Apologising in this way shows are content for the Scottish

Government. Can I ask that you released two MSPs -- to MSPs the

original letter released a year by Mike Russell. Can I say, this is

that question to the current secretary. In relation to letters

that are sent to me, that is not for me to release them. That would

be for the Minister himself. If you could now concentrate on a question

to the Cabinet secretary, I would be grateful and so would the rest

of the chamber who are waiting to hear from you. Certainly, Presiding

Officer. The Ministerial Code says any error should be corrected at

the earliest opportunity. Mike Russell misled that Scottish

Government in June, despite a -- knowing there are real figure since

February. Why has it taken him this long to apologise? In terms of Mr

Henry's request for a statement I have indicated not only am I

responding to this Ayrshire and offering a full and unreserved

apology. -- to this issue. I shall be entirely open in that debate as

I am now. Can I say that matters of the ministerial code and offer me,

those are matters for the First Minister. I do not ask why the

ministerial code had not been applied. The question I asked is

why had it taken the Cabinet secretary five months to apologise

and he has ignored that. The ministerial code also says that

Ministers who knowingly mislead Parliament will be expected to

resign. Mike Russell knew in June he had misled his Parliament when

he said there is no reduction in funding in 2012-13. He then

knowingly misled this Government again next Wednesday when he said

he had never said there were no cuts. He has knowingly misled his

Government, not once, but twice. Presiding Officer, why has Mike

Russell not offered his resignation? The answer again -- I

gave was given in good faith. I have apologised for that answer as

it was erroneous. I have a polished twice in the statement and I

apologise again for that answer. -- apologised. It was given in good

faith. In terms of the debate and discussion of this issue, I made it

clear last week, that I have always acknowledged the budget fall in the

spending period. That is why I have fought so hard to get any additions

within the budget and those revisions have been designed to try

and help the situation. I shall continue to seek those. Mike

Russell there. Now MSPs from Scotland's three

largest opposition parties will want to plan to find agreement on

what powers might be devolved to Holyrood if Scots vote no to

independence. The leader of their Devo Plus group Jeremy Purvis, said

voters needed to know how Scotland will be governed if it remains in

the Union. We think people want a clear choice. N R report, it is

showing how exactly that can be brought about. How parties who do

not support independence can coalesce around it. And what the

result would be if the referendum result is no. What is the idea?

think a clear statement of a new Union were the Scottish Parliament

as a strengthened position is accountable, it is permanent and

cannot be abolished by Westminster unless abolishes itself. It has a

much stronger footing for the people of Scotland. It is important

and that can be the outcome that can be delivered after the next UK

General Election. Hard to get there, of course. We need to be clear so

people understand that. That is why we're arguing the parties the to

come together. This can be advanced in advance of the vote so people

are clear what the consequences of a No vote would be.

Jeremy Purvis talking to our political correspondent Neil

O'Gallager. Let's go to Westminster -- Holyrood now to get some

response. We have Linda Fabiani, I think it is a helpful

contribution to the bait. I think the danger here is that those with

then the pro-independence camp have been trying to cast this as a

question between the independence of the status quo. I do not think

it has ever been that. With the contribution that the Liberal

Democrats have made through the steel Commission and the recent

work by Ming Campbell, we have shown that we are developing ideas

for taking forward around renewed devolved settlement. I think as an

opportunity for the Labour Party and the Conservative Party to

develop their thinking and I think the report from their reforms

Scotland is a very helpful contribution to that. It goes

beyond the three main parties involved in the better together

campaign. I would say I would be encouraging SNP members and

supporters to be joining that process, as indeed I with those of

no political affiliation. You're talking about developing these

lines. But two years out from the referendum, the party should have

more pay at two present to the people of Scotland was Mark I think

what they're Scottish Liberal Democrats have put forward through

the Campbell Commission has been recognised. The other parties are

undertaking their own pieces of work. I think that is going to have

to come together to demonstrate to those advocating against

independence this isn't the end of the process. There are ideas they

are developing a stronger union that reflects the interests of all

Talking there about the other parties developing their work, Hugh

Henry. You have your commission. It has only met once and the folk were

only appointed two months ago. Look what the Liberal Democrats have

already produced. Labour have not done very much to produce this

coherent argument to the people of Scotland for post-referendum.

Labour has a substantial record in terms of delivering devolution of

powers to Scotland and the Scottish Parliament. We will come forward

with proposals following the work of the devolution commission. We

won't agree on every bit of detail with the other parties, but if we

can agree on some of the fundamentals that will chime with

the vast majority of Scotland who don't want to separate from the UK

and they want us to get on in the Scottish Parliament with the job we

were elected to do. Do you think there is a chance that the throw

pro-union parties could set out a joint vision, or is it unlikely

I think there is a good chance we can set out general statements of

intent. We may not be able to agree on specifics. I hope we can work

together. We may disagree with them with what they are doing in the UK

Government but as for as Scotland is concerned we are all agreed that

we are better staying within the United Kingdom and not separating.

Linda Fabiani, the Liberal Democratsing are having a refusal

of a vision to set out post- referendum if there is a no vote

but you would be worried if there was a joint vision, because put to

the people of Scotland, you would be worried about how they would

react to that? Absolutely not. The anti-independence parties have had

lots of commissions, we have had commissions and we now have the

Ming Campbell commission and the Devo Plus Commission, the Labour

Devolution Commission and even Ruth Davidson for the Conservatives is

talking about another body to look at what could happen if there was a

"no" vote. Well the reality is if they were really serious about this,

they would be putting something concrete there and saying - this is

what we will legislate for and we have reached agreement. They cannot

reach agreement amongst them. They owe it to voters to be saying - if

you vote "no", this is what is on offer. They backed out of even the

very idea of a second question, despite harping on about it. The

public ZIt cannot be taken seriously. The public did. Another

issue we have been covering this afternoon, Linda Fabiani, that of

Mike Russell. We are hearing today that Antonis Samaras had to -- Alex

Salmond had to correct numbers about working in renewables and

people say that Psalm Monday is talking distinctively about the

advice problem. Do you think there is a credibility gap? No, we are

looking at a concerted effort to try to discredit Scotland's

Government and the First Minister. This is the First Minister of

Scotland. People should have more respect than running around with

loose language. Mike rust rust apologised fulsomely yesterday for

having made an error. -- Mike Russell. And for having stated in

good faith figures he subsequently found out to be erroneous. He

apologised many times yesterday. I was there and heard it. He has

agreed with the Liberal Democrat call to have a deby the about

colleges this afternoon. I don't know what more the opposition

parties want from Mr Russell. He has been upfront and straight about

the mistake he made. Hugh Henry we have that debate tomorrow. Are you

going to let this issue lie now and focus on substantive oosh ues on

further education or will you keep the ball running? -- issues?

have always been focused on the real issue, which is the damage

that Mike Russell is doing to Scotland's colleges. It is not just

us. Because increasingly staff employed in Scotland's colleges are

saying they have no confidence in Mike Russell because of the cuts

and because of the damage that he is inflicting. But you know, there

is also an issue here that needs to be resolved and this is - if you

stand up and give false evidence within the Scottish Parliament,

then surely that must mean something. You cannot be allowed

just to say whatever you want in order to avoid being confronted by

the truth. The latest issue involving the First Minister also

involves him arranging for the report of the Parliament to be

doctored so that it reflects what he wanted to have said, rather than

what he actually said. Now we have Mike Russell braisingly, and Alex

Salmond as well, brazenly inanothering the ministerial code.

Liam McArthur. Time to move on, the Liberal Democrats have that debate

tomorrow. You called for it. Is it time to move on and focus on the

big issues on further education or are you going to keep the pressure

on Mr Russell? I think Hugh Henry is right. We have been consistently

foe cousining on the issues in the sector -- focusing. This debate is

necessary. Nevertheless what we saw in this last week in the Chamber,

very much reflects what the Education Committee has been

experiencing over recent weeks. have been trying tirelessly to get

to the bottom of the figures the Government is presenting after

having similar problems this time last year with the budget. So I

think what we have seen in the chamber is a reflection of the

confusion that lies behind a lot of these figures and the college

sector is going through very serious challenges at the moment,

not just in terms of having its funding reduced but also in terms

of mergers being forced upon colleges often at a pace that is

pretty unreasonable, alongside a whole series of Government

commitments as well. I must stop you there. I think the problem is

that Mike Russell does have a credibility issue. OK, thank you

all very much. We have run out of time. Thank you for joining me. Now

George Kerevan our political commentator for the afternoon is

still with me. Let's focus on the Devo Plus report here. You have

been having a look through it. Do you think it is likely we could

come up with a joint statement from the three pro union parties? You

know well before the referendum? The first thing to say is that

Frankenstein has risen from the grave, Devo Plus is back. A funny

thing happened the other week, when David Cameron and Alex Salmond

agreed the single question, I was surprised by the number of

particularly in the business community, who said Devo Max is a

good idea, it is a shame we can't talk about it. Now it is back. The

initial report isn't as good as it seems. It is largely from the stuff

produced by Reform think-tank. It says transfer income tax and krp

racial tax to Scotland. Good idea. -- corporation tax. It is private

enterprise work by some of the MSPs it. Doesn't really have the support

of the three main unionist parties. We have to say it is devo Plus Devo

Max back on the agenda but still we have to wait for some really hard

agreement by the main parties. Let's turn our attention to what is

going on in the Chamber this afternoon. Business tourism. Trying

to attract more conferences to Scotland. You are a former Chair of

the Edinburgh business board. You were involved in building the

Conference Centre in Edinburgh. How critical is this in terms of

bringing in investment from outside? Well business tourism, big

business conferences, professional conferences, it is the Holy Grail

of the visitor industry. These people spend a lot of money and

quite a few nights and once they have done their conference they go

off and play golf and visits the Highlands. You definitely want that.

But so does everybody else. It is motherhood and apple pie issue.

Nobody I assure you will be against having more visitors. It is the

question of how you get them there. At the moment, the big impediment,

apart from the weather, is the air passenger duty, the tax that you

pay when you lie on an aeroplane to Scotland. In particular there is a

higher band for business travellers and that really discriminates

against business conferences. Unless something is done about,

that it is hard for Scotland to compete. Thank you for just now.

Let's cross to the Chamber and find out pwh what is going on in that

debate, -- out what is going on in the company of Michael Buchanan.

The tourism minister, Fergus Ewing is being questioned on this

particular issue. In the last few minutes he has produced a found

demonstrate that one of those pounds is turned into �53. That is,

he says, the investment in a new fund when it comes to the MICE

programme, not the furry an marblgs meetings, conference and events. --

ury animal. -- fury animal. Let's hear what he has to say. I would

like to say, however, that I'm in the claiming any particular great

credit for this. The credit goes to the people who organise the

conferences, who arrange them, who secure them, who put in a power of

work and I would particularly like to pay tribute to Scott Taylor and

his team and Hans Riskman at the international Edinburgh Conference

Centre and Lucy Martin at Marketing he had inbrup and the Chambers of

Commerce who play a great role and my friends at Glasgow City Council

with whom I work closely in relation to these matters but also

Glasgow airport and Amanda Macmillan who will roll out the red

carpet for the leaders of conferences and also those at

universities who play a key role in bringing so many of the conferences

to Scotland. People who work in the royal colleges, who have influence,

who can persuade their colleagues in these types of organisations

that Edinburgh, Glasgow or other places would be great locations for

their colleagues to meet and celebrate and discuss their matters.

So, presiding stpe, I have not covered anything I meant to, there

are about eight or 12 pages we will leave to some other time. --

Presiding Officer. I'm sorry to disappoint members. But I very much

look forward to the debate and I have pleasure in moving the motion

in my name. I call on Ken Mackintosh to speak

and move the amendment. Ten minutes, please. Thank you,

Presiding Officer and can I thank the minister for his opening

contribution, despite the disappearing coin trick and the

shameless playing to the gallery and the two caveats on Labour's

amendment, I do welcome his comments. I think like the - and

support for the acommendment - like the two recent debates we have had

on tourism there is a general consensus around this Chamber and

Scotland that we need to do more to recognise the importance of tourism,

business tourism in particular. In fact, Presiding Officer, in a week

which has brought rather gloomy and depressing news on business

prospects and on the Scottish economy generally, it is good to

have the opportunity this afternoon here in the Scottish Parliament it

talk about one area where there is clearly great potential for growth

and which manages at least to somewhat buck the downward friend

during the recession. The closure of Comet follow a number of high

street retailers which have gone under and the decision by Vion to

close its UK operation merely adds salt to the wound, with the loss of

1,700 jobs, so it is more important that we have a renewed focus on

employment from this Government and Parliament and with a emphasise on

diversifying and supporting our manufacturing sector. But we should

respond to these difficulties by putting an even greater emphasis on

making sure we make the most on expanding sectors such as business

tourism. I think it is worth reminding ourselves of the

importance of this industry to Scotland. We have had a number of

debates about tourism in general and the Scottish Government's

motion highlights the 2.9 billion in value added it is now worth to

the Scottish committee. -- Scottish economy. Business tourism accounts

for 20% of the total tourism expenditure to Scotland and 2.6

million business trips were made to Scot fland 2011. But perhaps as

important -- to Scotland in 201 1. But perhaps as important is

business visitors spend twice as much as traditional holiday

visitors and their custom is less prone to seasonal highs and lows,

making it very important for the hotel sector for capacity all year

around and there is also the added incentive as business tourists

returning again as holiday makers. I'm sure we are all aware of the

competing effect in the main overseas markets, America, germ ni,

Scandinavian countries, Netherlands and France. -- Germany. It is

perhaps worth highlighting one another statistic, and this is that

the rest of the UK, including Scotland itself accounts for throw-

quarters of total exspend tour. I think that union dividend is an

important point to be bear in mind. I the news from the minister the

conference bid fund has started to attract new business tourism to

Scotland this. Scheme, funded by Scotland's cities is a good example

of collaborative working between our cities and Visit Scotland which

is already showing results. It is the work done by those cities I

want to turn to. It is clear they have been the driving force in

attracting business visitors. Yes, business tourism has been somewhat

affected by the financial recession but it is recovering and it is

expected to grow, unlike many other That has not happened by accident.

That has happened because a strong leadership from the City Council

itself. The leader of Glasgow City Council has estimated that in the

first six months of the current financial year alone, conventions

and business to some have brought �120 million to Glasgow's economy,

the same as they had achieved in the whole of the previous year.

Ken Macintosh talking about business tourism in the chamber.

Down to Westminster now where David Cameron fielded questions on a

range of subjects during Prime Minister's questions, including the

escalating violence and Gaza. right to say that any ceasefire

deal can be turned into peace if there are negotiations towards that

2 state solution. This week has shown us once again that there is

neither peace nor a peace process. And the reality is that the

international community does bear some responsibility for the abject

failure of having those meaningful negotiations nine years on from the

promise of the road map for peace. So can he set out to the House what

steps beyond a halt foresees fire need to be taken, to pressure ball

sites into meaningful negotiations? Let me agree with him that we need

a process to be put in place and I think we need to do everything we

can to persuade President Obama. I would make this point that while we

all want this process and we all won this piece, in the end peace

can only, back by Israelis and Palestinians sitting down and

talking through the final status issues. They have to discuss

Borders, refugees. As President Obama is fond of saying and I would

agree with it, we won this more than the one to it. We have to

encourage some. We have to push for a process, but in the end we need

courageous leadership from the Israelis and Palestinians. If the

Prime Minister wants to send a clear message that Scotland and

England from a main -- belong together, shouldn't he be doing his

best to make sure their principal road from London to Edinburgh visit

a modern dual-carriageway? He makes a very attractive spending bid for

the Autumn Statement. While my friend the Chancellor is not here,

I am sure other colleagues would have been listening closely. Let me

present at tale of two companies. One employees many people. His main

comment -- competitor brings in revenue of up to �4.5 billion and

only paid less than �1 million in tax. Will the Prime Minister

followed that actions of the French Government and bring Amazon to pay

the tax they all? Companies have to make fair tax payments and our

country. What we have done his boots and extra �900 million into

the Inland Revenue to make sure we properly get companies and

individuals to pay their taxes. Yesterday I announced one of the

key priorities of the G8 how will the cheering in January and holding

in Northern Ireland in June of next year, one of the key priorities

will be Titian make sure we get proper international policies.

the door was a man who was a loan shark. He charged 12.5 pence a week

per pounds for the loan that he would give the show word worker. --

shipyard worker. Can we have a question? Assure sentence? You hold

one of the great offices of the state, so does the Prime Minister.

What is he personally going to do to drive the sharks out of our

economies? I did enjoy my visit to Troon. I made the offer then that I

would happily share a platform with them to defender United Kingdom,

and for some reason the invitation got lost in the post. So why would

make that offer again. He makes a serious point about payday loans.

We have seen the report and I think we need to take action here. That

is why we are giving the Office of Fair Trading I knew power to

suspend policies. Many companies are not sticking to the guidelines

set out and that is not acceptable. Let's speak to our correspondent

David Porter and the Central lobby. A very busy central lobby. It might

have something to do with the appalling weather here. We have

come inside. I am joined by three MPs that were

Prime Minister's Questions and Scottish questions before that.

David Mundell. I will start off with you, one

issue we heard raised, the latest developments in the Middle East. It

does seem as if MPs are frustrated. They want something to happen but

realistically what can a British Government do to influence things

over there? It is very clear, MPs are very concerned. We had a

statement yesterday from William Hague as well as the statements

today from the Prime Minister. I think we have to use all the

influence began to bring about a ceasefire. It is urgent, we cannot

have a fence like the bus terrorist attack today. We cannot have the

rocket attacks in Israel and we cannot have what is happening in

Gaza. We have to use what influence we can to be to bring about a

ceasefire. I also believe we have to work towards achieving the two

state solution. That has been disappearing at down the agenda and

we need to push a four wood so that I'll hope of that happening is not

lost. Presumably that is something you are party would agree with. It

goes across political boundaries, people are dying with what is

happening in the Middle East at the moment. Yes, I have been

increasingly contacted by constituents who have seen

harrowing images on television who are urging me and other cards to do

what we can to support the peace process to ensure the UK Government

does uses of the was to try and bring its voice to the peace

process. I really all we get negotiations soon. It is terrible

having to watch these images and I hope we do get some kind of

resolution and the next few days. agree with both David and my friend

here. I think his is one of those issues where we can speak across

parties in doing all we can to end the scenes we are seen of the last

few days. Somewhere up there will be a

difference of opinion, negotiations on the European Union budget which

are due to take place. You're party together with a certain number of

Conservatives for too far reduction in the European Union budget. The

Prime Minister will not be have to go and get a will the? We voted for

that is up. We have more cross- party unity here which will shatter

in a moment. It is intolerable as a situation to say that when other

budgets are being cut, that the European Union budget should not be

subject to the same constraints. There has to be stringent times

across all parts of Government spending and that has to be the

case for Europe as well. You and Labour on the same page as this?

And usually on a European issue. Again, budgets are being cut and we

are facing austerity measures in the public sector, wages have been

frozen, our constituents would expect that we would vote in favour

of having a cat in the European Union budget. And the message to

Yap Prime Minister is, go and get a reduction? It is opportunism, that

is what it was. There was no principle behind the vote. The

Prime Minister will do absolutely what we can to get Britain the best

possible deal at the European Union table. And he said repeatedly if he

does not get a deal that is acceptable he will veto it. Energy

prices - the announcement yesterday that there will be a reduction in

the number of Arabs. Whether reduce prices are willing just reduce

contrary -- competition?, it will allow people to choose the lowest

tariff suitable to them so they can cut their energy bills, cut their

household budgets. When the Prime Minister announced this was going

to be Government policy, it was still top down by others.

Are you convince this tour reduce prices? Not at all. -- this will

reduce. My constituents or worried about bills over the next few

months. This will do nothing for prices and all it will do is that

there will be more confusion entered into the energy market. I

think we need to get some resolution to this, too. I hope he

will agree with the other two things I said in the interview.

Reduced tariffs, that is a good thing. It has to go alongside

reform of the energy markets. Also that there is a regulator that

passes on and has a duty to pass on wholesale costs to their consumer.

What the Prime Minister said a few weeks ago is not the same as what

he said yesterday. There is a difference between having the

cheapest available to Arab and appropriate tariff and everyone

getting the absolute cheapest tariff. Thank you for joining us.

Back to you in the studio. Thank you very much. We will see

you in - well for a Scottish questions. -- in a short while.

Interesting to see that interesting political consensus. David Cameron

will go there tomorrow. How do you think things will work out? The big

question of the week is not Mike Russell or what -- but whether

David Cameron has the guts to veto the European Union budget. I do not

think you will get a real cuts. F The Beatles, then all hell Blake's

lose. -- if he does the toll it. Then all hell will break loose.

Really difficult for David Cameron. In the background, Angela Merkel is

looking for compromise. The European Commission has offered an

80 million euros cut. Angela Merkel is trying to find somewhere in the

middle. Let's turn to another issue we are

looking ahead to it. The Spanish region of Catalonia are holding

elections this week. It could set the stage for a referendum there.

Catalonia is having its elections on Sunday. They have cull these

ahead of time, clearly because of the big opposition to it austerity

from Madrid, because the people wanting independence has gone above

50%. This was new. If they vote, -- the nationalist parties and, in

news from being a Scottish one to be -- being a European wide one.

is interesting, what is happening in Catalonian reflects made 2014.

The Catalans want to hold a referendum on the same one -- same

day as the Scottish one. It is illegal for them to call referendum.

There would have to be major changes of legislation to do that.

The briefly how do you think things will go? Do you think the

Nationalists will make it? I think the tide is worth the Nationalists

and Catalonia. Unemployment is 25% and you have massive austerity,

nothing is happening about it. They wanted control their own economy

just as John Swinney and Alex Salmond want to do here. George

Kennan, thank you for that. Thank you for your company this afternoon.

That is all we have time for this afternoon. Stand by for Scottish