23/01/2013 Politics Scotland

Mellow and welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up: -- hello.

The finance secretary fights back over claims his budget is not

over claims his budget is not over claims his budget is not

focused on jobs and growth. I

I believe this Budget provides a bld and ambitious programme for our

people in the context of the most challenging financial environment

Scotland has faced since devolution. As MSPs debate fuel poverty,

environmental groups claim a lack of funding will result in missed

targets. And at Westminster whale gauge reaction to the news that the

Prime Minister wants an referendum on the future of Europe. -- we'll

gauge. Good afternoon. Thank you for joining us. The Budget Bill

passed its first parliamentary hurdle at Holyrood yesterday. It's

branded as a package to support jobs and growth. More of that in a

moment but let's focus on jobs and the latest unemployment figures

which show a fau. I'm joined by our Business and economy Editor,

Douglas Fraser and by our commentator for the afternoon,

George Kerevan. Thank you for joining me. Douglas, what do the

figures tell snus Monthly figures. These cover those seeking work

between September and no. The number of Scots seeking work down

by 14,000 to reach 2,007 -- 207,000. It is explained by the fact that

the number of people in the job market fell. People who are no

longer looking for work. It might be students who feel there is no

longer point and retirees who are counted as coming out of the labour

market. And those on Jobseeker's Allowance, that fell, 1,400 fewer

people in December, down to 135,500. Lots of good news there it sounds

like on the surface at least. What can it tell us about the general

state of the economy, do you think? It is very hard to tell what the

jobs market, in particular, if you just deal with that, compared with

all the other evidence we've got, which still looks pretty bleak. Now

it may be that companies have been reluctant to let go of workers,

hanging on to skills. Productivity is pretty poor in the whole British

economy. The economy appears to be bumping along. We may be back in

another dip of downturn at the moment. We won't find out for a

while but the evidence coming out. We have had three surveys in the

past 24 hours. CBI Scotland and Master Builders and the Scottish

Chambers of Commerce. They all point to the direction that last

year was bleak. It is picking up a bit this year, but only aly.

Manufacturing slightly more, for instance, than retail and tourism.

George Kerevan, a mixed bag in the economy but politicians both in the

Scottish and UK governments are taking heed of this and presenting

it as a positive progress. Well, I mean, that's what politicians are

there for. They will find good news in even the worst news. I have to

say, though, in terms of spreading wisdom and light on the subject,

nobody in the world understands British job figures at the moment.

Everything we know about the way the economy is going, is this it is

going back into recession. Hopefully not but that's what the

figures are telling us, apart from jobs figures which seem to be

getting better. One reason might be the way they calculate the monthly

job figures is on a sampling basis. And everybody involved is getting

worried that maybe the figures aren't telling us the real truth.

If you take a longer view, then things are a bit bleaker. Also, I

suspect, the nature of the jobs market has changed a lot in the

last decade. There's a lot more part-time, short-time working and

people are filling in with that. So I think a lot of the good news is

temporary, rather than long term. Douglas, some rather bad news from

Lloyds about jobs in Scotland. Lloyds Banking grournings mainly

Bank of Scotland jobs, 135 are to go. -- Lloyds Banking Group. Most

of the 135 will be branch managers, the people who are really customer-

facing. Many more branches will share managers. Another 70 people

transferring to other suppliers and cash handling and cleaning. So, yet

more bad news about jobs in the banking sector. And breaking

business news this afternoon on SSE. Yes, this is Scotland's second

biggest company after Royal Bank of Scotland, a real monster, based in

Perth. SSE. Not always popular because of prices going Uits Chief

Executive has been around for ten years. Ian Marchant has announced

he is standsing around in July and being replaced by his deputy. He

has been important with keeping SSE nind ask the land but building up

as a serious player, particularly within the renewable sector. As I

mentioned the Budget Bill began its passage through the Scottish

Parliament yesterday. The finance secretary, John Swinney, described

it as, "A bold and ambitious programme of investment." More from

him in a movement but first flavour of the debate. The first challenge

is to accelerate economic recovery by supporting groups and pem into

employment, particularly young people and by supporting Scottish

business, including by capitalising on new opportunities in the low

carbon economy. Second li, the bill addresses the need to maintain

infrastructure investment as a key part of the economic strategy.

Thirdly, it takes approximate forward an ambitious programme of

public sector reform, together with our deleverry partners to ensure

the sustainibility and quality of our services and to make a decisive

shift in favour of preventative expenditure. Final li, the Bill

delivers on our commitment to a social wage at the time of intense

pressure on household budgets. Those challenges are brought into

sharp focus by the continuing uncertainty in the global economic

outlook. The Government's spending decisions will continue to be

guided by our purpose of increasing sustainable economic growth and by

working to deliver our programme for government and the economic

strategy. Global economic conditions continue to impact on

economic confidence. Business investment remains considerably

below pre-recession levels whilst household incomes remain under

pressure. We are, therefore, focused on enhancing confidence, in

order to encourage private sector investment and greth and to help

households where we can. -- and growth. Presiding Officer, in

conclusion, I believe this Budget provides a bold and ambitious

programme of investment in our people and infrastructure in the

context of the most challenging financial environment that Scotland

has faced since devolution. The Government has taken decisions to

prioritise employibility and economic recovery to build for the

future and to ensure our public services are supported in the years

to come. That's the foundation of the government's budget. I look

forward to the debate and I will give consideration to any

constructive answer positive suggestions made. I commend the

Budget that I believe meets the needs of the people of Scotland, to

Parliament today. This year the SNP's choice it s to

hammer colleges yet again. Let's # No doubt. This choice has not

been forced upon them by Westminster. This is a decision

made in Scotland. The result will be the denial of further education

for thousands more Scots of all ages, and yet longer college

waiting lists. We believe that the 35 million

needed to reverse the cuts to further education can be found from

a combination of forecast underspend, efficiencies and

savings, such as on the 16 referendum work streams or

profligate government vanity programmes like the Ryder Cup junk

et. If there was a Budget for jobs and greth investment would be

investing in colleges and our young people's future. Scottish Labour

believes in investing in these young lives. We call on the

Government at this late stage to reverse cuts to colleges and

support our beleaguered Further Education sector. We have all seen

the depressing youth unemployment figures in Scotland and across the

rest of the UK. But still we see a drastic reduction to the colleges'

budget next year. It's �556 million to the Government, in the current

year and it will be �511.7 million according to the sksh Government

next year. -- Scottish Government. A drop of

�34 million in cash terms in a single year. A 6% cut in cash terms,

at a time when the Scottish Budget as a whole, much to the Cabinet

Secretary's disappointment, sees an increase. A cash-terms increase to

the Scottish Budget as a whole of �7 million. A very small increase I

have to say, but a cash increase nonetheless. We will support the

Budget if we can secure issues like the colleges and the extra funding

because the colleges do play an important role in making sure that

we have the workforce ready for boosting the economy. And likewise,

we would like to thrink to the economy as well: that we would

support extra investment -- we would like to link. We so we say

that two-year-olds, 40% of the poorest two-year-olds should get 15

hours of nursery education each week. The noble laureate, you have

heard me say and refer to him numerous times, he says the highest

return on investment in education is before the age of three.

That's when you can make the biggest impact. You can determine

somebody's outcome at the age of 26. Before the age of two, if you make

the right investment at that time. The Scottish Government has

committed to 1% of two-year-olds getting free childcare and

education for two-year-olds. We think that's good but we think we

need to move up to 40%. Now the finance secretary is still

speaking in the Chamber at the moment and we'll have him on the

programme as soon as he is free. Now the Prime Minister finally

delivered his long-awaited speech on Britain's relationship with the

European Union this morning. David Cameron the British people must

have their say on Europe as he promised to hold an in-out

referendum if the Conservatives win the next election. During the

question and answer session, he also drew parallels between a

referendum on EU membership and the referendum on Scottish independence.

Many people said to me - well, obviously you just have to ignore

what is happening in Scotland and the fact there's an SNP Government.

I said no, if the Scottish people have voted for an SNP Government,

the Westminster Parliament should be constructive, we should trust

the people, give them that choice. That is why there will be a

referendum on whether Scotland stays in the United Kingdom. I

passionately believe that it should and I hope it will. I think it is

the snaim some ways on this issue - - it is the same on this issue. You

can put your head in the sand and hope that things will turn out all

right. I think that's incredible. There is a huge debate on Britain's

place in Europe. There is massive change in terms of the European

Union and the single currency. The right answer, the bold answer and

the answer in our national interests is to get out there,

shape the debate, win for Britain and put it to the British people to

our international and political future. That's what we will be

doing and the path I have set out much it is right for Britain.

Salmond gave this reaction. I don't think the Prime Minister should

make speeches earlier in the morning. It was fundamentally

confused. He is trying to appease the Euro-sceptics in his party and

on the other hand trying to appear as a European reformer. It blows a

huge pwhol in the Unionist parties arguments they have been arguing

the referendum on the Scottish Parliament has been delayed. The

European referendum he is talking about, is delayed for five years'

time. Let's pick up on the Europe issue with our political comen

ticketor, George Kerevan. How do you think David Cameron is handling

this? -- our political commentator. Is he being canny, knowing that the

negotiation also have to take place between all Member States as the

European Union changes? I think he is being far-sighted. The euro is

the game changer and if the eurozone countries want it keep the

single currency they'll have to move towards a federal union, the

import of the crisis we have had over the last two years. If they

are going to have a federal union, they know that Britain is not going

to join. But everybody realises, in the heart of Europe, that Britain's

relationship is going to change. I think Cameron is banking on that

thing he knows coming over the horizon, to say - let's Go do the

renegotiation and he can see off his troublesome backbenchers by

offering a referendum when knows it is going to happen anyway. My only

queryi is.. David Cameron didn't bother to tell us -- queryi is:

David Cameron didn't bother to tell us what he is renegotiating about.

What he wants. The reason for that is that nothing is going to change

that much in economic terms. If we do a free trade deal. Britain does

a free trade deal with a United Europe. There still has to be a

bisz of rules which stops people cheating on the free trade. --

basis of rules. We will end up with the bureaucracy we have at the

moment. Not a lot of train ultimately, if you get far down the

line, if you want a free market with Europe. The mood in Brussels

was one of suspicion, hearing what Mr Cameron is saying. The Germans

is saying, you cannot cherry pick what you have when it comes to

Europe. The French are saying it can nobility a la carte. I love the

vote -- it cannot be a la carte. I love the quote from the French

Agriculture Minister, who said he would roll out the red carpet. It

is basic. You want it keep a free market but you don't want to be

part of the union with the same tax and monetary policy. But if you

want a fre market we have to have rules to govern that, so you will

accept the rules we lay down, otherwise pick up your ball and go

away. As I say, we'll end up, if Britain has a more associate status,

we'll keep our foreign policy, a separate social policy but the

economic rules of the game are not going to change. OK, thank you very

much for just now. Back with you later.

Now, I'm joined by Finance Secretary. In a moment we'll go

live to Holyrood to speak to John Swinney who is standing by in the

Garden Lobby. We were talking about the budget earlier and also the

latest employment figures. Mr Swinney is there for us now. Thank

you for joining us. The Budget passed its first hurdle in

Parliament yesterday but there's pressure on you to overhaul it and

it make you focus more on jobs and growth, isn't there? What was set

out in the Budget yesterday was a programme of investment in the

Scottish economy, which covers a whole range of different sectors,

whether it is about the capital programme that the Government has

brought foortd and which I recently expanded in December -- brought

forward. Or whether it is the investment in schools and training

to ensure that members of the public who are unemployed have the

best chance of getting back into employment. These are the proposals

the Government has brought forward as part of our strategy to focus on

growth within the Scottish economy. Clearly there is a debate to be had.

The opposition parties have set out some of the areas where they are

interested in taking forward additional proposals. My simple

challenge to the opposition parties is: if they want me to spend money

in a different way, they have to set out how we take the money away

from other areas of public service, because the Budget has it balance.

I have set out a balanced proposition and I need the

Opposition to take the kind of hard decisions that we as a Government

have had to take. There are many tough decisions to take, of course,

but it is not even the Opposition who are saying you are not focusing

on jobs and growth. Professor David Bell who advises the finance

committee says your actual priority I am not sure that is a fair

representation on what he said. Taking four-day programme that

invests in the economy, put an active programme of reform of our

public services to make sure that they need the needs of our people,

to shift emphasis to make them more focused on preventive expenditure

and interventions so we can deliver a manageable and sustainable public

service in the years to come and ensure that all this is taken

forward in a way that strengthens the contribution we make to the

protection of the natural environment. But as the balance of

the programme the Government is putting forward and if we are

having a debate about choices, doing things differently, taking a

different approach, then other parties involved in the process

have to set out where the money will come from to afford the

different spending choices they want to make. Let's broaden things

and look at the economy as a whole, the latest job statistics for

example. What is your reading of them, it looks like a lot of people

are dropping out of the jobs market. There is a welcome fall in our

unemployment, the second month in which this has happened and we have

also seen a significant fall in youth unemployment as well so for

the first time in a considerable period, the level of youth

unemployment is below 20%. These are still too high, but what they

indicate is that we are making steady progress in getting people

back into employment and to reducing levels of unemployment.

The key part of the economy that still needs further attention is

the level of employment. We need to get growth back into the economy.

That is why I am concentrating so much in the Budget and the

arguments of the UK Government about the importance of investing

in capital infrastructure to ensure that we can build up the intensity

of activity in the economy, create jobs and get people back into

employment. But will remain the focus. What is your reading of the

situation with the economy? We have differing indicators such as

exports up but the Chambers of Commerce survey say they see little

improvement in trading conditions. I think there's a lot of varied

indicators but taking them in the round, looking at the purchasing

managers' index, possibly the most reliable indication of the state of

the economy, that is showing modest progress being made in boosting

confidence within the Scottish economy. Coupled to a fall in

unemployment, linked to the success we have had in relation to

exporting activity, I think there are a number of indicators that we

are moving into a period of greater optimism about the economy. That is

welcome but we have to continue to intensify our focus on economic

growth and that lies at the heart of the interests of the Scottish

Government and we will take forward that in an effective way to promote

the opportunities to invest in Scotland and create employment.

other big story today, Mr Cameron's speech on Europe. In some ways you

would probably like to renegotiate with Europe when it comes to the

Common Agricultural Policy, fishing and the Budget as well. Would you

not? Would you like to change your relationship with Europe? We are

already in the European Union and we want to continue that membership

and to make sure we use it to Scotland's maximum advantage but

the key point book of that comes out of the speech today is a

devastating blow to the no campaign in Scotland because what the Prime

Minister has said is that it is OK to have a referendum in five years

on the EU membership question, but does not create uncertainty in the

economy so one of the massive argument that has been put forward

by the no campaign of which the Prime Minister is an exponent, is

somehow there will be uncertainty in the Scottish economy as we

prepare for 2014, that has been knocked asunder as an argument and

we know that Scotland can now take a confident decision in debating

our future in 2014 sure and certain that the economy will continue to

be strengthened and will have a bright future as an independent

country. It can get complicated as to what can happen in 2014 and 2015

depending on who is elected in various referenda but we do offer

MSPs a vote on Europe? Some people perhaps think that the

Conservatives point at that they are a Euro-sceptic, would you

offered MSPs a vote on membership on the EU? We should concentrate on

the immediate question, whether we want to be an independent culture

with a strong voice in Europe able to protect and promote our

interests and to protect the people of Scotland. But is a really

exciting prospect to allow economic levers and that is what they are

SNP Government will continue to articulate for people of Scotland.

Thank you for joining us, John Swinney.

It is that time of year when the heating is on higher but for many,

it is simply not affordable. The Scottish Government is committed to

eradicating fuel poverty by 2016, perhaps too ambitious a target

opposition MSPs say. A cross-party fuel poverty group meets tomorrow

and that issue is now being debated at Holyrood and the Scottish

Government's speaker is now number of applicants, rural

businesses, RSLs. We propose a community-based approach to

tackling fuel poverty in our my manifesto earmarking �50 million

over the course of this Parliament for a warm homes fund to promote

heating and renewable options. The first project his when I am hoping

to visit very soon. This product is expected to become operational in

July, 2013. A few other schemes in the pipeline will be announced

shortly. R S Ls will promote renewable energy to improve energy

efficiency of housing and give people warmer homes. District

heating it was can provide low-cost heat to households particularly for

Maltese storey blocks -- multi- storey blocks. Presiding officer,

fuel poverty is a blight on our country and this Scottish

Government will continue to urge the UK Government which has

responsibility in this area to do more to drive down energy costs and

to ensure that our households are better protected. Members of this

Parliament and the people of Scotland can be sure that this

government has done and will continue to do everything it can do

within existing powers to tackle the scourge of fuel poverty. I move

the motion. I now call of Richard Baker to speak to and move

amendment, nine minutes. The recent freezing temperatures remind us of

the acute need to tackle fuel poverty in Scotland. We live in a

time of increasing fuel bills, an increase in fuel poverty and still

poorly insulated homes. Behind that, at nearly one in three Scotland

households living in fuel poverty are families, potentially those on

the lowest incomes unable to afford to heat homes properly and to many

older people are there to choose between heating and eating. I am

acutely aware of the impact of fuel poverty from my work in charities

and the all too high levels of winter deaths in Scotland. The

scale of the challenge is clear and it is correct to ask if enough of

is being done. We readily acknowledge the impact that welfare

reform proposals will have on the poorest households and the need for

far more robust regulation of the energy industry. We have action to

curb energy companies hiking prices up for customers. They have an

important role to play and I will return to this but nevertheless,

the capacity of the Scottish Government to take action is also

substantial and it is correct to focus on what can be done now in

this Parliament. We have heard the phrase that it is a scandal and

that energy-which Scotland, we have fuel poverty, that is true but we

believe it is a scandal that anyone in the UK should live in fuel

poverty, we are not the UK Government to take a different

course. Power should be used to be full extent to tackle fuel poverty

and while there are undoubtedly areas where we support the action

taken by ministers including the principles of the National retrofit

programme, in the context of rising fuel poverty, we believe further

action is required and we are not alone in this as members will see

from a number of excellent briefings received ahead of this

debate and some of the issues I would like to speak about are those

that are being highlighted to us by Energy Action Scotland, W W F and

so on. I have stated we support the proposal for the National retrofit

programmes and we see many benefits of the scheme, not only from

improving energy efficiency or our housing stock but also that it will

support jobs in our construction sector in these tough times for our

the comic. That work of improving our housing stock has been a

priority for this party for a long time -- for our economy. Reducing

usage must be the key goal in tackling fuel poverty and in doing

so, contributing also to the goal of reducing carbon emissions. That

is why we have made housing be key priority in our proposals. A

proposal we believe will not only result in more affordable homes but

also homes built to a higher standard of energy efficiency and

allowing greater investment in retrofit schemes. Our priority for

housing is why we supported a greenie new deal at the last

election. Off-course it is right that -- of course it is correct

that we welcome a retrofit programme, and while the Scottish

Government budget for fuel poverty is stable at least in the Spending

Review, three years ago there was a two-thirds cut and that was a

costly mistake. Many what will be looking forward to the Energy

Action Scotland Burns supper and am told but Robert Burns spoke that he

had three Guineas to carry out his work as an excise man when it

really only required five. Ministers find themselves in a

similar situation with the funds available. We must have priority

for funding going forward and we know that of the �200 million

budget for the Scottish Government States it has set for energy

efficiency and for tackling fuel poverty, almost two-thirds of that

is to come from energy companies. That is indeed something which

should be a good thing, which should be secured as the Cabinet

has intervened on for her 70 position but also it is important

to call on ministers to update Parliament on the progress of

Nicosia -- negotiations. These funds, if they are not secured,

that will raise significant questions over the delivery of the

strategy. We must hope that energy companies will recognise the

responsibilities to contribute to the work of fuel poverty when there

are dialogues on this issue. It is also welcome there has been

Scottish Government funding for the goal early projects and significant

take up by authorities. But I would like to have more information from

ministers about what private investment has secured in these

schemes. I understand there was information from the Minister in

the speech but it would be good to see what has been secured. It will

be a good indicator. There are also questions about when the rules will

be concluded in Scotland on the operation of the green deal, for

example on the occupancy assessment required and it would be good to

hear from the Minister about progress in this area as well.

While we have welcomed the national retrofit programme, I am conscious

of the advice of energy action Scotland. There will be the need

for a programme similar to the package to ensure that the most

vulnerable households outside the retrofit programmes will not have

to wait for years for help. Dr Murray raise a point about

continued eligibility for assistance for those outside the

schemes at this point. But these general points reinforce the

importance of ministers coming forward with further details of how

the national programme will indeed be rolled out. We also want more

avenues for tackling fuel poverty to be explored as we are looking at

initiatives such as the collective purchase of energy by communities

to bring down costs and also to look at further pioneering schemes

like the one in Aberdeen in terms of community heat but works and the

Minister spoke about this in her comments. In 2001, this Parliament

made a commitment to abolish your poverty by 2016 and this government

has correctly said it will abide by that commitment. Earlier this month

in response to a question from me, the Cabinet Secretary describe this

as not only a statutory but a moral duty. It is correct to ask, given

that we have at this moment high levels of fuel poverty, which in

the last year unfortunately increased, what assessment have

ministers made of the ability to meet this? Are plans adequate to

meet the target and will play set milestones in a detailed and

published plan? STUDIO: MSPs debating live in the

chamber and its cross to the Garden Lobby of the Scottish Parliament

and get reaction on a variety of issues and I am joined by Labour's

Ken McIntosh, the leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, Willie

Rennie and from the Scottish Conservatives, Jackson Carlaw. Good

Ken Mackintosh, let's turn to the Europe issue we were speaking about

with John Swinney. Ed Miliband says he doesn't want a vote now that.

Will spark a pretty intense debate in your party, won't it? I think it

is fair to admit that there are a range of views within the party. I

was dethrieted hear Ed's comments. I think think -- delighted to hear

Ed' comments. I think our future lies within yuefrplt it is

difficult to see anything - the suggestion that we should come out

of Europe is anything other than a retro grade step. I was delighted

to hear a clear, unambiguous statement of our position from Ed.

I have to say, also, a reminder to David Cameron that he is making the

same mistake of Alex Salmond, of creating years of uncertainty by

calling a referendum. Do you not think that Mr Cameron has perhaps

the upper hand and new Ed Miliband perhaps looked as though he was

floundering a little in Prime Minister's Questions, which we will

see in a moment. No, I don't agree at all. I think that what has shapd

that the Prime Minister, David Cameron, looks like he is the

victim or looks like he is acting because of the views of his own

backbenchers. He looks like the victim of of the party rather than

the leader. To call a referendum on something he say he is wants to

stay in strikes me as weak leadership. Ed has made our

position clear. I'm delighted. There is uncertainty across

Scotland. There is no use pretending that Scotland is any

less Euro-sceptic than the rest of the UK but I have to point out our

economic, social and political future is joined up and entwineed

with our European colleagues. Willie Rennie. It seems that the

Liberal Democrats are once again in an impossible position. How can

Nick Clegg stay in the coalition when he says this renegotiation is

not in the national interested tr? Because actually this referendum,

even though David Cameron says he wants to have it, won't be

delivered by this coalition. It will be in a future Parliament. It

is not even going to be within the next few years. And this is' the

the Liberal Democrats' very firmly, pro-European for creating a strong

economy, fair society to people can get on. That's what our focus

should be. It should not be about creating uncertainty, whether about

independence or Europe. That's the benefit of having the Liberal

Democrats in the coalition. Charles Kennedy was saying today,

your former leader, that this kind of referendum in any future

coalition pact would be a deal breaker. It would be very, very

important. We have always regard our international negotiation with

the rest of the world as important and the European European is a

central part. I would be in step with Charles. Do you think what the

PM said today will keep the Euro- sceptics in your party happy,

Jackson? I think what is extraordinary is the inconsistency

of the two positionings we have just heard. All of us have a right

to decide whether or not we remain in the United king do. David

Cameron initiated the debate leading to the referendum. If it is

right for the people of Scot throond decide whether or not it is

right to remain in the UK. Why is it wrong for the people of the UK

to decide whether we remain in a European Union after we have

renegotiated our terms of entry. Those positions are consistent.

These are two issues which have bedeviled our party for a

generation, admittedly the Conservative Party more than others

but it is not alone. Across all political parties there is a

concern and that concern has grown within the public, over the last

ten years and over the last few years, during the turmoil we've

seen on the European mainland over the economy in particular. I think

this is the right position to take and it is time for to us put both

of the issues decisively behind us. I hope the Prime Minister is

successful in the renegotiation he will lead and that we will vote to

remain within the European Union on renegotiated terms. It has

bedeviled your party. I will ask the question again: do you think

the Euro-sceptics will be fully happy with what the PM has said,

within your party? Yes there are sceptics in our party and other

parties too. I believe they will. There will undoubtedly be some,

whatever the circumstance, who will vote to come out of Europe. There

will undoubtedly be people of n Scotland, whatever the prospects of

the UK lvote to come out of the UK. But where does the majority lie? I

believe the majority wants us to be part of the European Union,

enthusiastically but to be so on terms in Britain's national

interest. And progressively and this is a feeling shared by other

parties, the Labour Party have expressed this and will come to

regret the confused position they have adopted, that we need to

renegotiate the identity and terms of our entry within the European

Union in Britain's national interests. The confused issue, that

the SNpmt have brought up saying youville brought a whole in your

own argument when it comes to uncertainty. You said that the

Scottish referendum will create uncertainty, they say this is

creating uncertainty. uncertainty exist. The uncertainty

about Scotland's if you tour has existed for longer than the length

of this Parliament. That's why the referendum will decisively put this

issue to rest. There are no renegotiated terms of entry. It is

a decision for the people of Scotland whether or not they wish

to be within the United Kingdom as it is today or not. The difference

with the referendum over Europe is that there is to be a renegotiation

over the terms of membership and once that term is complete, that's

when the people of the UK will have their say. Others have said it, it

is wholly dependent upon the election of a Conservative Party

Government at the next election. It is perfectly clear to the people of

Scotland and the United Nation, if you want to be clear on Europe,

only one party will be there for you. Ken Mackintosh, better news

for the economy, looking at job figures. Do you think the Scottish

Government is doing a good job for Scotland's economy?? I think you

are jumping to an odd conclusion there. It is certainly good it see

a fall in the headline jobless total. That's very welcome. It is a

major problem facing our economy. I don't know if you have noticed but

Scotland is doing worse than the rest of the UK I hardly see why

anything that the Scottish Government is doing, can be lauded

as making a difference here. They are doing worse than the rest of

the UK. Remember than just talking about the SNP's, pluses or minuss

in this, and I think there is a lot more they can do, what is worrying

is the underlying issues. The Scottish Government every month

prefer to talk about employment rather than unemployment. The

employment figures have gone down. The number of people in work has

gone down by more than those unemployed. The unless economically

inactive has gone down as well. It's really - has gone up, which

means there are a will the more economically inactive. There is a

lot happening in our economy and it is not very good. I would suggest

that this is the moment that the Finance Minister, John Swinney,

uses his Budget to try to inject more confidence into the economy

and some more growth and particularly, to take further

action to promote jobs. He could do more. He could use the powers he

has and the borrowing he has on rail, to reinstate the rail project.

He could put money back into houses and colleagues which he cut.

were speaking to Mr John Swinney. He said he had to balt Budget. Your

proposals are for extra spending. - - he said he had to balance the

Budget. He seemed to be in denial about his own Budget. In November

last year he cut �300 million from this year's NPit. Programme, the

Scottish future's programme. This year, and another �300 million next

year. That's the capacity to spend on what he calls his pipeline of

shovel-ready projects. He should reinstate that, use it for the

capital programme he announced in December and then use all the

Budget consequentials to invest in housing. We know housing will make

a big difference to boost the construction industry in Scotland.

Willy Rennie from the Liberal Democrats. Your point about helping

to increase jobs and growth was extending free nursery provision.

How would that help? Twofrpblgts aspects. The nursery education for

the most impoverished two-year-olds, will not only give them a chance

for the future and enjoying the economic fruits. It would also give

their families the opportunity to get back to work. That would

obviously bring economics benefits. We are also suggesting there should

be re$$DUMP a reversal of the cuts to colleges. But they could do one

other thing as well. To release the �1.5 billion locked up in Scottish

WAP water to invest in science, energy efficiency, also in terms of

local economic development. They have so far rejected those

proposals. I think that could be a big stim last to the economy at a

time when needed. -- stimulus. We need it make changes. Work in

partnership with the UK, but also make changes. Just to turn to you

finally, Jackson Carlow. Mr Swinney says he is operating under a tight

financial settlement from the UK Government. He is blaming

Westminster. I was always actually thought Swinney win to be a

relatively decent man. I don't think he has any vested interests

in not doing the very best for employment in Scotland. The reality

is, I think they are so obsessed with the independence ageneral

dthey are not doing what they should do. There has been a

realisation that the �500 million they have got for shovel-ready

projects they have managed to spend just �20 million. It is indolence

on the Government's part. If they want more jobs created they should

make use of the funds which they have in the bank today to spend.

Jackson Carlow from the Conservatives, Willy Rennie from

the Liberal Democrats and Ken Mackintosh from Labour, thank you

for joining me. Now David Cameron's speech on Europe dominated Prime

Minister's Questions with the Labour Leader, Ed Miliband,

challenging David Cameron to say that if he doesn't get what he

wants in negotiations, would he recommend that Britain leaves the

I want to see a strong Britain in a reformed Europe. We have a very

clear plan. We want to reset the relationship. We will hold that

referendum. We'll recommend that resettlement with the British

people but the question now is for him: The clue is in the title,

Prime Minister's Questions. He is supposed to be answering the

questions. He has had six months to think about this. It's not too much

to ask. The right honourable member for Rushcliff who is not here, he

would say unequivocally he would vote yes in a referendum. The

children's secretary, who is hiding away down there, he has briefed he

wants us to leave the European Union. I'm just asking the Prime

Minister a straight question. In the referendum, can he guarantee he

will vote yes in a in-out referendum? Yes, I support

Britain's membership of a reformed European Union. You don't only -

only the Leader of the Opposition would go into negotiations

expecting to fail. We go into negotiations knowing what is best

for Britain. Let me put it to him again: we now have a very clear

approach. A renegotiation and then a referendum. What is his answer?

Let me tell him. He is meant to leave the Opposition. You cannot

fight something with nothing. Miliband. Mr Speaker, I say the

reason the people behind him are cheering, is not because they want

to vote yes in an in-out referendum it is because they want to vote

"no." That's the reality for the Prime Minister. He still hasn't

Let's put it another way and give him another chance. We know from

his speech this morning that he wants to go off and negotiate on

fairness and flexibility and motherhood and apple pie in Europe.

Can he name one thing, just one thing that if he doesn't get, he'll

recommend leaving the European? -- the European Union? I don't want

Britain to leave the European Union. I want Britain to refom the

European Union. We have set out the whole areas where we want -- reform.

THE SPEAKER: Order. Members are shouting their heads off at the

Prime Minister, they must desist. Let's hear the answers.

Prime Minister? We have been very clear about what we want to see

change. There are a whole series of areas, social legislation,

employment legislation, environmental legislation where

Europe has gone far too far and we Ned to properly safe grd the single

market. We also want to safeguard. We also want to make sure that

ever-closer union does not aplay to the United king do. These are the

things we are fighting for. But let me put it to him: we want

renegotiation and then a referendum. What does he want? Or doesn't he

know? So, Mr Speaker, four hours since the big speech, he can't

answer the most basic question of all: whether he's for "yes", or

whether he is for "no." And why can't he answer it, Mr Speaker? Why

can't he say, unequiff cleically, he will vote "yes" in a referendum

-- unequivocally. It is because of the people behind

him. The only thing that has changed when he said he was against

an in-out referendum, it not the situation in Europe but the

situation in the Tory Party. Why doesn't he admit it? He has been

briven to it, not in the national interest, but been dragged to it by

his party. Dehas been driven to it. The most basic question of all is:

do you want a referendum? Do I, does he? He is going to put Britain

through years of uncertainty and take a huge gamble with our economy.

He is running scared of UKIP. He has given into his party and he

I have politely to say to the right honourable gentleman, his whole

argument about there being uncertainty is undermined by the he

can answer if he wants a referendum or not. Can I give him advice? He

needs to go away, get a policy, come back and tell us what it is.

In the meantime, our approach is what the British people want and it

is right for business, our economy and we will fight for it in the

years ahead. Why is it the Prime Minister thinks Scotland's two year

referendum is too long when he thinks his five-year referendum...?

And easy answer is that the Scottish nationalists want to leave

the United Kingdom as it is, and I will be arguing that Scotland

should stay in the UK. What I foresee in Europe is a changed

Europe and then we ask the people. STUDIO: Let's stay at Westminster,

our correspondent David Porter is standing by on College Green.

Interesting that Ed Miliband did you that position at Prime

Minister's Questions and said he was opposed to an in-out referendum.

We will see a lot of probing and the main parties as to exactly

where they stand on Europe now and where they would like to see Europe

moving in the future. It is one of these rare occasions where it is

not hyperbole to say that this is a very important speech that the

Prime Minister has given. It could shape a lot of the arguments in the

next general election in many ways and were wins the next election,

Europe could be one of those key issues -- and whether wins. -- and

whoever wins. David Cameron speaking as much as Prime Minister

today as he was as Tory leader and the Liberal Democrats on the other

side and we know they are far more in favour of closer integration

with Europe than perhaps money on the Conservative benches. And

earlier I caught up with the Scottish Secretary Michael Moore

spin is a Liberal Democrat sitting in the Cabinet, to get his take on

the event. As a Liberal Democrat, I am strongly in favour of Scotland

and the UK staying part of the European Union. It is important to

tackle the big issues, like climate change, that we cannot do on our

own. The Prime Minister has set out his view on what his next manifesto

might look like but for us as Liberal Democrat, we are committed

to Scotland and the UK staying part of Europe. Michael Moore speaking

earlier and interesting there that he was saying that David Cameron

was speaking as the Conservative leader. Running me now, two MPs

from Scotland to I have no doubt will have views about this

referendum and another referendum about Scottish independence which

we know about. I enjoyed by Gordon bikes for Labour and somebody we

saw a Prime Minister's Questions -- I am joined by Gordon Banks. His

David Cameron's announcement today, is it a game change or? I think it

is a step that the Prime Minister thought he must take, it is party

politics so I think it is about fighting off UKIP and from that

point of view, any statement the Prime Minister of a country makes

of such a serious issue is potentially of significant

importance but you must understand the background to it. It is not

what is best for the country, it is best for the Conservatives. Mike

Weir, do you believe it is one of those speeches that we will perhaps

look back on and say that was a very important moment in Britain's

relationship with the EU? In the Scottish sense, it is pushing holes

in the Scottish referendum question. The UK seems to be on the road out

of Europe if the Tories have their way, the coalition are falling

apart on this issue. Scotland's issue is quite clear. What is the

position of people in Scotland saying they want a vote about the

future of their country but also the wider issue of Europe why are

they mutually exclusive? A major part of the no campaign has been to

scaremonger over Europe. That has gone, they cannot do that because

they are on the verge of taking the United Kingdom out of Europe and

Labour are defended the Tories'' right to do that. We have a vote in

2014 and when we have that vote, we will negotiate for the conditions

for Scotland within Europe and we are looking for the best conditions

to stay in Europe which we believe his balance and to stay within

Europe because a totally different campaign is going on in the rest of

the UK where, if you look at what happened in Prime Minister's

Questions, interestingly David Cameron came in and then he said he

would would personally campaign to stay in the EU, there's silence on

the benches. Many of the Tory benches want out of Europe whatever

the cost. This argument about renegotiation and bringing back

powers is nonsense, they want out and it will be increasingly under

pressure to lead Europe irrespective of what he may get in

the decisions. Gordon Banks, you were shaking your head when he was

alluding to things there it is totally wrong. -- it is totally

wrong. We will vote for a Labour government in 2015 and we must

understand that this was about Cameron's longevity here, nothing

else. Not what is best for the country. A one your own party

leader have to move at some point and promise a referendum as well?

Ed Miliband's position was clear today. Our focus should be on

growing the economy and jobs and that is what the Prime Minister

must do, get the country back to work rather have this elongated

period which will be hugely damaging for the economy, and for

inward investment and I think that the Prime Minister, while thinking

that he has created a bit of breathing space for himself and his

backbenchers to fend off UKIP, from the, -- from the economic viewpoint,

it is damaging. Today it was talking about no in-out

referendum... Legislation is in place... David Cameron's situation

is that he's going in to negotiate on something, does not know what he

will come back with and he will then have an in-out referendum and

that is inappropriate, we must think about what is best for the

economy, what is best for jobs and that is jobs for the United Kingdom

and Scotland and we have got the situation where we have the SNP who

have been promising us a referendum on independence since 2007/8. Both

of the issues are damaging for the United Kingdom and for Scotland.

Mike Weir, briefly, if we do get to a referendum on Britain's

involvement in the EU, do you think the people of Britain and Scotland

will vote to stay in or go out? must remember there will be two at

different scenarios. Will be voted for independence in 2014 and then

negotiating from within Europe. A different argument going on in

England where UKIP are biting at the heels of the Tories and I

suspect that Labour will move, Ed Miliband's Spain is that it is not

an in-out referendum, a battle in Middle England which I suspect will

take UKIP out of Europe. Thank you for joining us, we will let you get

back into the warmth of the humps - - House of Commons. You could have

two referenda within a couple of years.

Let's get some final thoughts and the company of this afternoon's

political commentator, George Kerevan. Interesting hearing about

the Unionist things being shot, do you think the thing about Europe

has been neutralised and now cannot be used against the S N P? It makes

it difficult for the no campaign to take up the campaign they have been,

Alistair Darling saying that if you vote to have independence and it

puts up the membership up for grabs, but it is up for grabs according to

the coalition anyway. As the people analyse the David Cameron speech,

life will become more difficult for the Labour Party. Labour going into

a general election in 2015, as the party of Europe, the general public

will not understand all the ins and outs. What they will see is that

they have been offered a referendum and Labour is opposed to that. I

think Labour will find that hard to sell on those terms. De you think

Ed Miliband will then decide to change his position - what do you

think, and will maybe have to soften us? Lots of people in the

Labour Party and lots of Labour voters who are not happy with the

you. Going back to the Scotland/UK problem for Labour, 60% of people

in England want to come out of the EU and in Scotland we are split

evenly, 50-50. In an EU referendum, things will swing back to support

for the EU because people are worried about change. But it could

be that there are still enough people in England to take the UK

out of the EU. The problem therefore be as if Scotland stays

within the UK and we have a referendum, the Willie's could have

a vote in the EU referendum -- and the Scots could have a vote and

then England taking us out. But is not a scenario anybody wants to see,

particularly not Ed Miliband. could end up quite confusingly,

Alex Salmond posing for the UK coming into a referendum and then

coming out. Scotland could take England's seat in the EU as England

comes out. Nigel Farage has had such a high profile over this issue,

do you think his wings have been clipped? UKIP has become a

mainstream party at last under Nigel Farage. I think the issue

will not go away and though it helps David Cameron in the marginal

seats in the general election, in the short term, UKIP is still in

pole position to win the European Parliament elections. In which case

there's still continuing pressure eating away. George, thank you for

coming in. Just to let you know about a special edition of

Newsnight Scotland on Monday night, an invited audience representing

Scotland's ethnic communities will pose questions to leading