Browse content similar to 25/01/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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At Holyrood, the Brexit minister Mike Russell will be giving | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
a statement on the Supreme Court ruling on Article 50. | :00:19. | :00:21. | |
And Scotland's exports to both the UK and EU continue to rise, | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
with renewables pushing up the figures. | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
And here at Westminster attention is now turning to the legislation | :00:30. | :00:32. | |
Theresa May has told the Commons that the UK Government will publish | :00:33. | :00:40. | |
The Prime Minister had been under pressure from Labour MPs | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
and a number of Conservatives to take the step, after | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
the Supreme Court ruled that MPs need to give approval | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
The announcement on a white paper came after a question | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
from the Conservative MP Chris Philp. | :00:56. | :01:03. | |
The Prime Minister laid out a clear and bold plan for Brexit in her | :01:04. | :01:17. | |
speech last week. Honourable members, honourable members, quite | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
rightly, want an opportunity to scrutinise that plan. Does the Prime | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
Minister agree that the best way of facilitating better scrutiny would | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
be a government White Paper, laying out our vision for a global Britain, | :01:31. | :01:38. | |
based on free trade in goods and services that will be to the benefit | :01:39. | :01:45. | |
of us and other European countries? My honourable friend raises the | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
question of Parliamentary scrutiny. I have been clear, as have senior | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
ministers, that we will ensure that Parliament has every opportunity to | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
provide scrutiny on this issue as we go through this process. But I | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
recognise I set out that bold plan for a global Britain last week and I | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
recognise there is an appetite in this house to see that plan set out | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
in a White Paper. The question from my honourable friend, the member for | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
Brookstone, last week in the same vein, and I can confirm that our | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
plan will be set out in a White Paper. | :02:17. | :02:16. | |
Let's talk to our Westminster correspondent, David Porter. | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
Was this a surprise? I think it was one of those surprises that people | :02:23. | :02:30. | |
had a fair idea might come. I say that because yes, to some extent it | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
was a bit of a climb-down by the UK Government, probably in an ideal | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
world they would have said, no, we don't want a White Paper, but all | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
treaties and negotiations with Europe before have been subject to a | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
White Paper, so I think it was something that Theresa May thought | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
she would have give ground on, and that's exactly what she did. When | :02:52. | :02:54. | |
you listen to that question, it did seem like it was a planted question | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
that had taken root on those green benches. What it did do, to some | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
extent, as we will probably see later PMQs, it did to some extent | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
wrong-foot the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, who had some questions | :03:11. | :03:13. | |
prepared on the need for a White Paper, and to Weezer May was able to | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
say that she had announced there would be gone. -- Theresa May was | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
able to say she knows that would be one. Important to say that this is a | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
White Paper on UK Government's overall stance on Brexit and the | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
negotiations that will go on, not the legislation to trigger Article | :03:30. | :03:36. | |
50. That legislation will be introduced into the Commons | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
tomorrow. Being a White Paper, it is the government's intention for their | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
Brexit negotiations, but it will not give the detail many MPs would have | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
wanted. You make an important point, that this isn't the same as the bill | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
to trigger Article 50. That will be a very short possibly one liner, we | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
know, two or three lines. But, if the White Paper is not supposed to | :04:00. | :04:06. | |
give away Theresa May's negotiating stance, yet it is a White Paper, | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
what is it supposed to do? What it can do is sort of say to the | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
government's own backbench MPs and opposition MPs, these are the areas, | :04:17. | :04:19. | |
this is the general stance we will be taking, this is what we are | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
hoping to achieve. But I think anybody who would expect a document | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
basically giving away state secrets is going to be very much | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
disappointed. What she can say is, I have listened to what MPs have been | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
saying, a number of MPs this morning were calling for a White Paper on | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
the negotiations. They have not got that. So she can go to the house and | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
say, look, I've listened to what you have said, I have acted on and you | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
will get a White Paper, but quite powerful that White Paper will be, | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
we will only find out when it is published. We will be back with you | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
later and you have to give us some time to digest the news that there | :05:00. | :05:02. | |
may be planted questions in the house! | :05:03. | :05:03. | |
Scotland's trade with the rest of the UK continues to be worth four | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
times more than its exports to the EU, according | :05:08. | :05:09. | |
Renewable electricity through cables going south of the border has helped | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
drive the value of Scottish sales to the rest of the UK close | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
International exports were also up around 4% during 2015. | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
But there is a political battle over which markets are most | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
Our business and economy editor, Douglas Fraser, reports. | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
This is a wind factory in central Glasgow making small-scale wind | :05:29. | :05:37. | |
turbines. They have just made their 1000th wind turbine in six years. | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
They now mainly export what they produce. In fact, wind power is one | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
of the reasons why there has been an increase in sales of goods and | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
services from Scotland into the rest of the UK. That total value is ?50 | :05:51. | :05:57. | |
billion, for these 2015 figures. Exports to the whole of the rest of | :05:58. | :06:03. | |
the world came to around ?29 billion that year, and to the EU, within the | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
European Union, ?12 billion of sales. From the point of view of the | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
UK Government, that suggests that the UK market is four times more | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
important as the EU market but, from the Scottish Government point of | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
view, arguing that Scotland ought to stay within the European single | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
market, they are saying that the potential of the whole EU market is | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
eight times bigger than the British one. | :06:28. | :06:28. | |
Now, later this week, Theresa May will be talking trade | :06:29. | :06:30. | |
with the new US President Donald Trump. | :06:31. | :06:32. | |
But, while those talks go on, the post of the Scottish Government's | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
official representative to the United States lies empty | :06:36. | :06:37. | |
after the last incumbent stood down suddenly in November. | :06:38. | :06:39. | |
John McManus looks at the diplomatic and economic challenges ahead. | :06:40. | :06:50. | |
Typically high-powered entrants for one of Scotland's 's most famous and | :06:51. | :06:57. | |
controversial investors. When he dropped in on his Turnberry golf | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
course, Donald Trump was still a presidential contender. Now he is | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
the most powerful man on earth. No longer the butt of jokes. I'm not | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
sure he will be wanting to phone me. In the highly unlikely event that he | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
becomes president. What would your message be? I am on the other line, | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
sorry for the now leaders will definitely take his calls. The First | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
Minister congratulated Mr Trump on his win and issued a warning. That | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
doesn't mean I don't respect the fact that America had elected him as | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
their president is therefore I hope we can have a constructive | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
relationship and I hope that Donald Trump the president turned out to be | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
a very different person to Donald Trump the candidate. Strong | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
relations between Scotland and the US are vital, not least for trade. | :07:47. | :07:53. | |
The government's business agency, Scottish developers International, | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
says the US is Scotland's's biggest source of foreign inward investment. | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
Over six years, it secured more than 13,000 jobs from US companies with a | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
combined investment of ?1 billion, and there could be further | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
opportunities, but only if the right support is there. The US is | :08:11. | :08:16. | |
Scotland's's biggest export market. We have great Scottish companies | :08:17. | :08:19. | |
selling into that market, for example in the drinks sector, brew | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
dog, a young brewing company. They are expanding into the US market was | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
well established links such as salmon and whiskey. It's a big | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
market. We have high-tech companies that we are looking to expand their, | :08:33. | :08:40. | |
such as people selling software and the US hospital market. The Scottish | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
Government as an office in the British Embassy in Washington, | :08:47. | :08:49. | |
dedicated to selling brand Scotland, but there has been nobody in the | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
driving seat since November when the last head moved on. And in 2010 the | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
government published its plan for engagement with the United States, | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
detailing the steps it would take to promote across the Atlantic. It | :09:03. | :09:09. | |
promised annual updates, but the last comprehensive review detailing | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
numbers of jobs created and links forged was in 2013. So, as the | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
government dropped the ball? The Scottish Government has released | :09:16. | :09:17. | |
a statement saying the US is an important market for Scotland | :09:18. | :09:19. | |
and interim arrangements are in place in the Washington | :09:20. | :09:21. | |
office after Daniel Jack returned Former Labour MP Tom Harris | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
is in the studio with me today. And, I should say, the man who ran | :09:25. | :09:38. | |
the Brexit campaign in Scotland. Is this turning out the way that you | :09:39. | :09:44. | |
wanted or expected it to turn out? It's... It is a solid a shape at the | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
moment as I probably expected it to be. There is a not longer bit | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
between now and when we finally leave the EU before we see any solid | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
shape of what the deal is going to look like. But the emerging view of | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
the British government, that they want to be out of the single market | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
and possibly, they are not quite solid, but possibly if not probably | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
out of the customs union, is that what you would have wanted? Pretty | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
much. Even some of the more moderate Labour MPs who have finally worked | :10:19. | :10:21. | |
out that freedom of movement has to change in some way, even they are | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
saying that is more important now than having membership of the single | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
market. If Theresa May can get what she says she wants, she can get | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
tariff free access to the single market, allowing Britain to control | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
its borders, of course, that is something that nobody would | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
criticise and everybody would welcome. But can she achieved that | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
in negotiations? We will find out in the next two years. The Scottish | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
Government would say that isn't enough, they don't just want tariff | :10:52. | :10:54. | |
free access, because that would mean giving up the single market it, | :10:55. | :11:00. | |
which means the regulations are the same across Europe. It isn't the | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
same. To all intents and purposes, it is the only difference is we no | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
longer have to pay all that money to the EU and we wouldn't have to abide | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
by the European Court of Justice. Collect your thoughts, because we | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
are going to to the chamber, where the Scottish pigment's Brexit | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
minister, Mike Russell, is making a statement about the judgment from | :11:24. | :11:25. | |
the Supreme Court about triggering Article 50. | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
That comes as a stinging rebuke to the UK Government and its stubborn | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
refusal to accept the previous unanimous court ruling that an act | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
of Poland was required before formal notification of the decision to | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
leave the EU. -- act of Parliament. Instead, it tried to plough on | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
towards a hard Brexit. Effective UK Parliamentary scrutiny is now | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
enabled. The parties and members at Westminster will have to rise to | :11:55. | :11:57. | |
that challenge. The SNP is more than ready to do that. Once the UK | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
Government publishes its Article 50 Bill, 50 SNP MPs in the House of | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
Commons will bring forward a range of amendments... I am sorry, to | :12:08. | :12:15. | |
understate the number. There are of course more than that. Far more than | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
the one Tory MP from Scotland in the House of Commons. | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
APPLAUSE SNP MPs in the House of Commons will | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
bring forward amendments to Claire Baker UK Government's approach to | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
drug ring Article 50. Some of those will seek to amend the bill so that | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
the UK Government must first secured unanimous agreement from the | :12:39. | :12:48. | |
joint... In July last year, the Prime Minister assured the First | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
Minister that Article 50 would not be triggered and still we had a UK | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
approach for negotiations, in line with Theresa May's clear and | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
unambiguous view of how the UK should operate, saying that it | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
should be a country in which Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
and England continued to flourish side-by-side as equal partners. Of | :13:08. | :13:09. | |
course, that is a sentiment expressed by all of the Better | :13:10. | :13:16. | |
Together partners during the referendum. Taking the Prime | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
Minister at her word, which I'm sure will be welcomed by cheering from | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
the Tory benches, when it is brought forward, we will seek to enforce | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
that. Presiding officer, there was another aspect of the judgment, | :13:29. | :13:31. | |
which has made one thing crystal clear, because this whole process, | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
the determination of the UK Government to pursue a disastrous | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
hard Brexit, is revealing much about the way power is exercised in the UK | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
and who exercises that power. Yesterday, the Supreme Court | :13:47. | :13:48. | |
considered the arguments put forward in interventions to the Lord | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
advocate and Welsh council general on the devolution implications of | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
triggering Article 50 was that we are obviously disappointed with the | :13:58. | :13:59. | |
ruling about the legal enforceability of this, but let's be | :14:00. | :14:06. | |
clear about what the judgment said. Notifying the intention to leave the | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
EU will have significant consequences for devolved matters | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
and the powers of the Scottish Government, and the court explicitly | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
accepted that. In so doing, it's obvious that the convention is | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
triggered by a UK bill authorising the Article 50 notice. What the | :14:24. | :14:26. | |
court has ruled is that the operation of the convention is a | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
political, not a legal matter, and therefore outside the remit of the | :14:32. | :14:34. | |
court, a position urged on the court by the UK Government. It also | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
resisted any and all efforts to give real teeth to the Scotland act | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
provisions on the school convention. The UK Government has at least been | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
consistent. Under no circumstances, it has said, should its action be | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
questioned by judicial authority. The Tories may wish to reflect on | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
the wisdom of gloating on this point. Rather than a defeat for the | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
Scottish Government, the ruling exposed the inadequacy of the Smith | :15:02. | :15:04. | |
commission process and, for those who believe that writing Sewell into | :15:05. | :15:11. | |
law would represent a new status for the Scottish Parliament. It is in | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
fact a deceit for the Tory architects of the Scotland Bill | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
2016, architects including the Tory constitutional spokesman. But it is | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
a wider defeat. As one community commentator has noted, yesterday's | :15:28. | :15:33. | |
ruling is a disappointment on the rights of Holyrood is that was an | :15:34. | :15:39. | |
opportunity, said Kenny Farquharson of the Times, to recognise the new | :15:40. | :15:46. | |
reality of a changed UK. This is, he said, a depressing moment for those | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
of us who have consistently backed home rule for Scotland within a | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
reformed UK. Yesterday's ruling demonstrates how empty work the | :15:56. | :15:58. | |
assurances of being a partnership of equals and that the Scotland act | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
would represent a new settlement. The UK Government merely reinforces | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
the old view, the supremacy of Westminster, its immunity from | :16:08. | :16:10. | |
constraint by law courts or respect for this parliament. | :16:11. | :16:12. | |
Now, earlier this week, MSPs travelled to Brussels to rally | :16:13. | :16:14. | |
One them was David McAllister, who only yesterday was appointed | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
the chair of the European Parliament's foreign | :16:19. | :16:20. | |
David McAllister, can you hear me? Have you joined us? Yes, good | :16:21. | :16:33. | |
afternoon from Brussels. I can see you now! First of all, what is the | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
mood amongst MEPs towards Brexit at the moment? Is it to try to do a | :16:40. | :16:47. | |
friendly deal with the UK which might involve some access, | :16:48. | :16:50. | |
tariff-free access for Britain to the single market or is it a fear | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
that if that were done, it might encourage other people to do the | :16:56. | :17:02. | |
same? Of course I can't speak for all MEPs in Brussels and Strasbourg. | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
In general, I would say a huge majority deeply regrets what | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
happened on 23rd June in the UK. After the speech of the Prime | :17:13. | :17:15. | |
Minister, we know the UK is facing a hard Brexit. That means the EU will | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
not only leave the European Union but also have to leave the single | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
market. So, we're now all waiting for the Government in London to | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
actually trigger the Article 50 procedure and we'll go into the | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
details. Before that, we can't begin the negotiations as long as there's | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
no notification. I think a lot of my colleagues are interested in finding | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
a sensible deal with the British. But, as Jean-Claude Juncker put it, | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
the negotiations are going to be very, very difficult. When you say a | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
sensible deal, do you mean one where there's a bit of give and take on | :17:56. | :17:58. | |
both sides? It seems to be accepted Britain will be outside the single | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
market. Is that, in your view, quite as black and white as it seems? | :18:03. | :18:11. | |
Well, the Prime Minister has ruled out the Norwegian or Swiss model. | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
She also wants to leave the customs union so the Turkish model is also | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
not an option. This really only leaves, in the end, that we will | :18:21. | :18:27. | |
negotiate free trade agreement, a trade agreement with the UK and one | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
thing is clear, if the UK wants to continue to export goods into the EU | :18:34. | :18:40. | |
single market without tariffs and trade barriers, they will have to | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
respect our rules in the internal market. So, it's going to be not | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
easy but once again, whatever happens, the UK remains a friend, | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
ally and partner of the European Union. It is just so sad that this | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
country is leaving our family of nations. There has been some | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
suggestion here that there might be different deals for different parts | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
of industry. Something I would think you personally might take an | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
interest in. At one point, you were on the supervisory board of | :19:15. | :19:17. | |
Volkswagen through running the lower state of Saxony. Are people in | :19:18. | :19:24. | |
Germany concerned about what this deal the British Government seems to | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
have done with Nissan amounts to? Is there concern there to find out | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
exactly what's going on? Especially in Germany, lots of people were | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
disappointed after the referendum because we believe that the UK's | :19:38. | :19:43. | |
such a valuable and important partner for us in the European | :19:44. | :19:46. | |
Union. The European Union will be a different one without the British. | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
However, we have to respect the politics of the Government in | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
London. Germans in general are following very closely what's | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
happening in the United Kingdom. No other country's getting such media | :20:02. | :20:04. | |
attention when it comes to national politics as the UK is getting. We | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
also understand that there are big divides in your country, especially | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
between the four nations. I thought the 62% in favour of EU membership | :20:16. | :20:21. | |
in favour of Scotland was an impressive vote from the Scottish | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
people. When you say that, do you think there's any possibility... The | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
Scottish Government is arguing Scotland should be allowed to stay | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
in the single market perhaps by joining E FT A while remaining part | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
of the UK. Is that something you can see has any possibility of success? | :20:41. | :20:48. | |
I read the report coming from the Scottish Government with great | :20:49. | :20:51. | |
interest and in detail. I think it's an interesting approach to try and | :20:52. | :21:06. | |
find out if a part of the UK could join EFTA. This is a complicated | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
legal question which, at the moment, I can't comment on. You'll have to | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
find expertise and get an answer if E FT A will be billing willing to do | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
so or not. Can you see the European Union, including Germany, being | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
prepared to entertain such a state of affairs? This is a domestic, | :21:26. | :21:32. | |
British political question. Sorry, no, it's not. If Scotland were to do | :21:33. | :21:38. | |
that, the rest of the European Union would have to agree to Scotland | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
doing this. It's not just a Scottish domestic question. Yes, but the | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
question if Scotland could be able to join an international | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
organisation like E FT A would probably have to be sorted out with | :21:52. | :21:54. | |
London. This is a domestic political question. That's why I beg your | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
pardon, as a German politician, I prefer not to get dragged into these | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
kind of details. What is the view in Germany about this? You said people | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
want some sort of amicable settlement. The Brexiteers in | :22:10. | :22:16. | |
Britain like to say countries of the European Union, including Germany, | :22:17. | :22:19. | |
are so dependent on Britain for exports, they'll have to do a deal. | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
Is that the mood in Germany or we'll try to do a deal but if the British | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
just leave, it's not the end of the world? First of all, we have to get | :22:29. | :22:34. | |
the withdrawal agreement done. This will take two years. It will be very | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
ambitious. We have to get it down before the next European elections | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
in May 2019. Afterwards, we'll definitely need a longer period of | :22:45. | :22:50. | |
time, several years, to negotiate a new trade agreement. In the | :22:51. | :22:56. | |
meantime, the UK will have to operate in a transitional period | :22:57. | :22:59. | |
with the relationship with the European Union. Of course Germany | :23:00. | :23:02. | |
and other countries are interested in good trade relations with the UK. | :23:03. | :23:05. | |
It is an important market for our goods and services. But, on the | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
other hand, the UK is heavily dependent on the European single | :23:10. | :23:17. | |
market. We, as 27 member states, are in a better negotiating position | :23:18. | :23:20. | |
than the UK which asked for this divorce. We didn't ask for this. If | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
it's a soft or hard Brexit, the will's make sure it is not a nasty | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
or dirty Brexit. Thank you for joining us this afternoon. | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
Former Labour MP Tom Harris is still with me. | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
They don't want this but they seem quite prepared to do a deal? If | :23:38. | :23:46. | |
would be the implication of that. If David is representative of the kind | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
of approach that the EU's taking to Brexit negotiations, that's a good | :23:52. | :23:54. | |
sign. That's someone who's thought deeply about all of the issues, | :23:55. | :24:02. | |
doesn't want thereby any kind of major fisture between us and the EU | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
and wants to do a reasonable deal. Anyone looking at this will say the | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
UK's Government is not going to get all its own way nor the EU. There | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
will be compromise. What about the Scottish Government's approach? It's | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
interesting. To an extent I sympathise with the approach Nicola | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
Sturgeon's taking on this. As you say earlier on, it's not the choice | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
but if it were the choice that Scotland had to clues the EU single | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
market or the UK single market in the event of independence within the | :24:36. | :24:41. | |
EU, clearly the UK market's four times as important to the Scottish | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
economy as the single market in the EU is. Can I point out, Brexiteers | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
say, when they is brought up with regard to Britain and the importance | :24:52. | :24:54. | |
of trade with Europe, they say, that doesn't matter. The growth in trade | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
is all coming from outside the European Union. It doesn't meater | :24:59. | :25:04. | |
40% of our tried is with Europe, the biggest growth is outside. The same | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
argument could be made with Scotland relative to the UK. You can't have | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
your cake and eat it? Well you can according to the Foreign Secretary. | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
Let's look at it in purely practical economic terms. The Scottish | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
nationalists are saying England won't deal with an independent | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
Scotland. The point is, an independent Scotland, the EU will | :25:28. | :25:30. | |
have no control over its trade. It will be decided by the EU. If the | :25:31. | :25:36. | |
rest of the UK he is paying tariffs into the single market, that means | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
tariffs to get into the Scottish market. We need to think seriously | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
about the practical implications of that. In terms of politics, do you | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
think the British Government is playing its hand with regard to the | :25:50. | :25:55. | |
Scottish Government sensibly? They are giving the impression, every | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
time Nicola Sturgeon says something, no. Wouldn't it be more sensible to | :26:00. | :26:06. | |
say look, they are exciting opportunities. Let's start talks on | :26:07. | :26:09. | |
that rather than appearing to be saying, go away? I totally agree. | :26:10. | :26:15. | |
The worst thing that Conservative ministers can do is come up to | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
Scotland, pretend to listen. Immediately dismisit. That riles up | :26:20. | :26:26. | |
Scots completely understandably. What's important, yesterday's | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
Supreme Court ruling was a real slam dung for the UK Government. For -- | :26:31. | :26:37. | |
dunk. For the first time, the Supreme Court reminded that the EU | :26:38. | :26:40. | |
is nothing to do with the Holyrood Parliament. What we heard Mike | :26:41. | :26:47. | |
Russell appear to be suggestioning, the join committee would have to | :26:48. | :26:57. | |
unanimously approve. Would it be aye right? That would be my view. | :26:58. | :27:00. | |
Now to this week's Prime Minister's Questions, | :27:01. | :27:02. | |
where Theresa May announced that a white paper on the Government's | :27:03. | :27:05. | |
plan to leave the EU would be laid before the Westminster parliament. | :27:06. | :27:08. | |
The Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, pressed her on why she had taken | :27:09. | :27:11. | |
so long to announce the move, and asked when she intended | :27:12. | :27:13. | |
Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister has wasted 80 days between the time of | :27:14. | :27:26. | |
the original judgment and the appeal and is now finally admitted today, | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
after pressure from all sides, that there's going to be a White Paper. | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
Could we know when this White Paper is going to be available to us? And | :27:37. | :27:44. | |
why, and why it's taken so long to get it? Can I say to the right | :27:45. | :27:54. | |
honourable gentleman, he asked for debates. I was clear there would | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
always be debates in this House. There have been and will continue to | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
be. He asked for votes. There have been. The House voted overwhelmingly | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
for the Government to trigger Article 50 before the end of March | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
this year. He asked for a plan. I set out as my honourable friend for | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
Croydon South said, a clear plan for a bold future for Britain. He and | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
others asked for a white many. I've been clear there will be a White | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
Paper. What I'm also clear about is that the right honourable gentleman | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
always asks about process, about the means to the end. I and this | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
Government are focusing on the outcomes. We are focusing... We're | :28:35. | :28:42. | |
focusing on a truly global Britain, building a stronger future for this | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
country, the right deal for Britain out of the European Union. | :28:48. | :28:50. | |
Yesterday, the Government lost in the Supreme Court. Today, we have a | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
very welcome U-turn on a White Paper in regards to Brexit. So, in the | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
spirit of progress for Parliament, in advance of meeting President | :29:02. | :29:04. | |
Trump, will the Prime Minister tell Parliament what she wants to achieve | :29:05. | :29:12. | |
in a UK/US trade deal? Can I join the right honourable gentleman in | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
his good wishes for a happy Burns Day. And in recognising the | :29:18. | :29:23. | |
bi-Centenary of the Scotsman. What do we want to achieve in terms of | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
our arrangements with United States? It is simple. We want to ensure the | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
interests of the UK are there that are put first. That's what I will be | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
doing. That we see trade arrangements with the United States | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
as we'll look for in other parts of the world, that can increase our | :29:42. | :29:44. | |
trade, Brigg prosperity and growth to the UK. My aim is to ensure that | :29:45. | :29:50. | |
economy works for everyone in every part of the United Kingdom. When she | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
meets with the First Minister, will she confirm whether she, the Prime | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
Minister, supports the principle of the Scotland Act whatever is not | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
reserved is deinvolved. What powers will come to the Scottish Parliament | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
in the event of Brexit? Can she confirm it will not be the great | :30:09. | :30:14. | |
power grab? I've been clear. It was ex-owed by the Secretary of State | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
for exiting the European Union, no powers that are currently devolved | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
will be suddenly taken back to the UK Government. What we will be | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
looking at and discussing with the devolved administrations is how we | :30:28. | :30:31. | |
deal with those powers which are currently in Brussels when they come | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
back to the UK. We want to ensure is that those powers are dealt with so | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
we can maintain the important single market of the UK. | :30:41. | :30:42. | |
to our Westminster Correspondent David Porter. | :30:43. | :30:50. | |
Balmy weather there, and hopefully some MPs, too. Balmy weather if you | :30:51. | :30:58. | |
are used to the Arctic Circle! Let me introduce my panel. Stephen | :30:59. | :31:05. | |
Gethins, the SNP MP, Frank McCallan from Labour, Alistair Carmichael | :31:06. | :31:08. | |
from the Liberal Democrats and Ian Stewart from the Conservatives, who | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
has the rare treat, I suppose, of having this constituency celebrating | :31:14. | :31:19. | |
his 50th birthday. Happy birthday to Milton Keynes! Alistair Carmichael, | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
the Prime Minister, Theresa May, has announced that there will be a White | :31:24. | :31:30. | |
Paper on Brexit. Is it a concession or was it good politics? Bowing to | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
the inevitable, and the fact there is going to be a White Paper doesn't | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
tell you much. We will judge the substance of the approach when we | :31:40. | :31:42. | |
see what is in the White Paper, because every time we get promised | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
some more information, come the day, it's always rather thinner, more | :31:49. | :31:50. | |
disappointing than we had been led to expect. It might be a White Paper | :31:51. | :31:57. | |
with quite a few blank pages in it. We certainly contribute all of the | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
details of our negotiating stance in advance. That isn't in the national | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
interest. I think it's unfair to say the Prime Minister hasn't been clear | :32:08. | :32:10. | |
about what her ambition is. Her speech last week was a bold and | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
visionary prospect of the opportunities that this country can | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
take advantage of. We have been coming to Parliament, we will be | :32:20. | :32:22. | |
coming to Parliament, there is the great repeal bill still to come, | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
there will be plenty of Parliamentary scrutiny, but we | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
cannot in any negotiations, you do not reveal your negotiating hand in | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
advance. I think it's fair to say that perhaps the announcement | :32:36. | :32:38. | |
slightly wrong-footed your party leader. Are we perhaps looking at | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
this through the wrong end of the telescope, saying, there will be a | :32:43. | :32:45. | |
White Paper, but actually the real concern should be good deal and what | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
comes out at the end? That is my view. In a sense, I don't think the | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
interesting question is whether or not there is a White Paper. I think | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
there will be a sizeable majority to trigger Article 50 when the votes | :32:59. | :33:07. | |
come. And I think that attention will then turn on the nature of the | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
deal. That ultimately is the most important part of this, what is our | :33:13. | :33:15. | |
future outside the EU going to be like? The Prime Minister set some | :33:16. | :33:22. | |
bars for herself last week, promising not just tariff free | :33:23. | :33:25. | |
access but barrier free access for our goods and services and | :33:26. | :33:28. | |
agriculture, and she now needs to make sure that she delivers on that | :33:29. | :33:34. | |
come because we are promised a vote at the end of this as well, and I | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
think that vote is becoming much more important. Stephen Gethins, | :33:40. | :33:42. | |
your party is minded to vote against Article 50. You said you would table | :33:43. | :33:48. | |
50 amendments on it. Article 50 is going to be triggered, so why does | :33:49. | :33:56. | |
the SNP not accept that? This is a job of scrutiny. This has a big | :33:57. | :33:59. | |
impact on everybody. Let's take the White Paper, look, I'm pleased that | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
Theresa May has caved in on this, but I also raised an important point | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
earlier, we need some substance here, so we want to see a | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
substantive White Paper with a bit of detail in it, and it needs to be | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
produced before the committee stage of any bill triggering Article 50. | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
We need to be able to scrutinise this properly, it is part of our job | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
and we have a responsibility to that. When does a substantial White | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
Paper veer into giving our negotiating position away? The | :34:30. | :34:35. | |
Scottish Government managed to produce a 670 page White Paper. We | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
are not asking for that number of pages, but we are asking for a bit | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
more detail. What happens to university funding, the food and | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
drink sector, EU nationals who have made the UK and Scotland their home? | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
These are areas we need answers on. Stephen Gethins mentioned, the | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
Scottish Government produced a comprehensive document on the EU and | :34:57. | :35:03. | |
Brexit. Would you be looking for something similar from the UK | :35:04. | :35:08. | |
Government? I'm not sure everyone would regard that document | :35:09. | :35:11. | |
necessarily as the model of what has to happen, but what I would say is | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
that we are involved in a lot of process here, and I think what | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
matters most to the viewers, to our constituents around the country is, | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
what is the content on this? We had a speech last week. We had major | :35:25. | :35:30. | |
industrial sectors here in Parliament yesterday, automotive, | :35:31. | :35:33. | |
aerospace, pharmaceuticals, all expressing severe concern about | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
where the Prime Minister's direction would lead us, and ultimately that | :35:38. | :35:43. | |
is what matters and what does this all do to our trading position, to | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
investment, to prosperity? Those things are not clear yet but I | :35:49. | :35:51. | |
think, as we go through this process, that is where the focus | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
will rightly be. I suppose, however much information the government is | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
able to give, the Westminster government, it is not going to be | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
enough for everybody, is it? There are some people who want to thwart | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
the whole process and imagine that the referendum never happen. Article | :36:11. | :36:13. | |
50 is the start of a process, not the end of it, and we will go into | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
these negotiations trying to get the best deal for this country. The | :36:19. | :36:21. | |
Prime Minister has been quite clear on some issues, like the rights of | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
EU residents in the UK. She wants that to be an early agreement, as | :36:27. | :36:32. | |
long as we can then secured the rights of UK citizens living abroad. | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
She has given details on this. And the person who could make that | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
happen today, if she chose to, is Theresa May, but still she refuses | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
to deal with that and to show a bit of initiative. And they are right, | :36:45. | :36:51. | |
negotiations will happen, the deal will then be judged. Theresa May has | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
conceded the principle that the government will not have the last | :36:56. | :36:58. | |
word on that, that Parliament will have a vote on it. I think that's | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
the wrong way around and, if we are to have somebody outside government | :37:05. | :37:06. | |
giving the final verdict on that, it shouldn't be Parliament. The process | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
should be finished by the people, in the same way it was started by the | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
people and they should be a referendum on the deal. | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
So that is only argument for a second vote on Europe. And on the | :37:19. | :37:24. | |
deal. But you would say that, when she comes back with a Brexit deal, | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
it should not be up to you four individuals as part of 650, it | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
should be up to the UK to vote again? What Theresa May is offering | :37:34. | :37:40. | |
Parliament is a meaningless gesture, because you know the context of that | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
vote in parliament, when it comes, and it will be that they dare not | :37:45. | :37:50. | |
thwart the will of the people as has been expressed in a referendum. That | :37:51. | :37:53. | |
is what you are already hearing, and I have some sympathy for that. If | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
there is to be a meaningful decision on this, it should be taken by the | :37:59. | :38:01. | |
same people who took the first decision, the people of the country | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
as a whole in a referendum. It is the politically consistent and | :38:07. | :38:12. | |
logical thing to do. The electorate at large is sovereign. If it is such | :38:13. | :38:15. | |
an important decision, there is some logic in saying that they should | :38:16. | :38:21. | |
have another say? The country has given an instruction that it is | :38:22. | :38:24. | |
Parliament's job to deliver on it. It seems a bit early to be talking | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
about a second referendum, just months after the first one, but I | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
asked the Prime Minister in PMQs today about the nature of this final | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
vote. Would it mean an alternative deal, is Parliament says no to it, | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
or would it mean us falling back on the world trade organisation rules | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
in a disorganised manner, some very high tariffs in there for particular | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
sectors, 10% on car exports, for example, 20% on food and drink. This | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
could have huge implications. So I think this point about the deal and | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
how it assessed at the end is going to become more important. Scotland | :39:04. | :39:09. | |
voted overwhelmingly to remain part of the EU, so I think we need to see | :39:10. | :39:12. | |
a bit of compromise from the government here. The Scottish | :39:13. | :39:16. | |
Government have produced plans on what could be the least worst | :39:17. | :39:19. | |
option. This is about protecting jobs and the economy. We need some | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
movement from the UK Government. The Prime Minister is about to go to | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
America to meet President Trump. What should she be saying? Clearly | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
she is closing up to the United States. It is an important partner | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
in trade. But it worries me broadly that we seem to be getting closer to | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
Trump's United States and to our like-minded European partners. | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
Should she be building bridges or saying, on certain things, we | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
disagree and I will speak out? I think the tone of what she says is | :39:53. | :39:58. | |
very important. I think it's a shame that President Trump chose his | :39:59. | :40:01. | |
inauguration speech to emphasise some of the more divisive themes in | :40:02. | :40:06. | |
his campaign, than doing what new presidents have traditionally done, | :40:07. | :40:09. | |
bringing people together, and I think she has some important | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
messages to deliver, about Nato not being obsolete but a cornerstone of | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
collective western defence and not putting Chancellor Merkel and | :40:19. | :40:21. | |
President Putin in the same bracket, as he recently did in a newspaper | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
interview. This is quite a feather in Theresa May's cap, but it is also | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
important for setting the tone between the new president and the | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
international community. We have a special relationship with the US, | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
and we have had it for many decades. As a close friend of America, | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
sometimes close friends say harsh truths. I think the Prime Minister | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
has been clear on things like climate change, which came up today, | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
that she will not be afraid to take a different line. The special | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
relationship is between the two peoples of Britain and the US. | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
Sometimes the administrations have a more special relationship and | :41:02. | :41:04. | |
others. This is an important point for setting the tone of that | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
relationship. Donald Trump said some worrying things during the campaign | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
and, to my mind, one of the most worrying is his intention to | :41:13. | :41:14. | |
reinstate the American torture programme. There are significant | :41:15. | :41:21. | |
strategic issues for the UK. We have always shared intelligence with the | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
United States. We cannot share intelligence with a country that | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
openly uses torture. Thank you very much. The clock has beaten us. But I | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
am sure next week we will be discussing Brexit and maybe that | :41:36. | :41:42. | |
visit to Washington. Tom Harris, Trump. Are you a fan? Good grief, | :41:43. | :41:49. | |
no! I was hugely upset and disappointed on the morning after | :41:50. | :41:52. | |
the election but, as I wrote a number of times before and, the | :41:53. | :42:00. | |
democrats, Trump didn't win, the Democrats lost, deliberately | :42:01. | :42:03. | |
choosing a candidate that they knew had incredibly huge negative ratings | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
and many people in America distrusted, but they thought she | :42:10. | :42:12. | |
could beat Trump easily, let's put her up, and it was a disaster. They | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
have to learn from that. Would you think that there is something | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
similar going on as happened in Britain? Hillary Clinton was the | :42:24. | :42:26. | |
representative par excellence of the elites, basically giving lectures to | :42:27. | :42:32. | |
people about economics, in the same way that arguably the Remain people | :42:33. | :42:39. | |
won the referendum, and that rhetoric has failed to connect? | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
There was a huge arrogance, and it wasn't just economics. Most of her | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
messages were right, but she was giving lectures, not just about | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
economics but an identity politics. She made an arrogant assumption | :42:53. | :42:58. | |
that, if you were black, Latino, a woman, she automatically deserved | :42:59. | :43:00. | |
that support, irrespective of how she ran her campaign, irrespective | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
of her own record in government. That kind of entitlement and | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
arrogance is always going to lose, and I hope the Democrats remember | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
that in four years' time. Trade deals. It all sounds great though, | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
I'll go to America and make deal with Donald Trump, well, you can't | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
make a trade deal with the United States until you are outside the EU, | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
but the difficulty of trade deals is in the detail. Just because you can | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
go and negotiate with other countries, which the Brexiteers | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
making out is a great triumph, doesn't mean the deal you will end | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
up with is any good, especially with countries like the States, which are | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
in a powerful position. I think that's right, but the one advantage | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
we would have negotiating a great deal outside the EU is that, when we | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
are members of the EU, every trade deal has to be agreed by all 28 | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
nations, which is why it takes many years for the negotiations to | :43:55. | :44:00. | |
finish. We hope that, if there is a bilateral trade deal between the UK | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
and US, it will be much quicker, but obviously I would recommend that we | :44:06. | :44:08. | |
don't sign anything unless it is of direct benefit to the whole UK. | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
Again, it's about power. To take one example, I think I'm right in saying | :44:14. | :44:18. | |
that the UK still won't import American beef that's been treated | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
with hormones. -- the EU. Donald Trump comes along and says, hey, I | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
want my beef exported to Britain and, if you don't do this, you're | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
not getting that. They are in a more powerful position to do that with | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
Britain that they would with the European Union. Absolutely, but here | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
is the difference. If a British governance signed a trade deal that | :44:41. | :44:43. | |
the people are not happy with, we can get rid of that government. If | :44:44. | :44:48. | |
the EU signed a deal that we are not happy with, there is nothing we can | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
do to get rid of that. But, because this is a power relationship, it | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
doesn't matter, so the next element goes to Donald Trump and says, | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
almost treated cows, and America say, get lost. It is a power | :45:02. | :45:07. | |
relationship, but we are not going to be forced into signing it, and I | :45:08. | :45:12. | |
think, looking back to last year when President Obama, of whom I am a | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
huge time, he came over and he riled a lot of people by saying we would | :45:17. | :45:20. | |
be at the back of the -- the back of the queue for trade deals. If | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
Theresa May can for a good relationship with the Trump | :45:26. | :45:27. | |
administration and we benefit from that, I don't see why anybody should | :45:28. | :45:29. | |
complain. The First Minister has | :45:30. | :45:30. | |
accused Scottish Labour of being "destructive" as the party | :45:31. | :45:33. | |
calls for Holyrood not to support the government's budget | :45:34. | :45:36. | |
in a debate this afternoon. Labour claim it's an austerity | :45:37. | :45:38. | |
budget which cuts ?327 million where the Deputy Leader Alex Rowley | :45:39. | :45:40. | |
is now speaking. THE SPEAKER: I call on he will | :45:41. | :45:55. | |
ex-roly to move the motion. Up to 13 minutes. Thank you, in moving this | :45:56. | :46:00. | |
motion today and bringing forward this debate we want to encourage a | :46:01. | :46:05. | |
wider discussion in this Parliament and across the country to build a | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
consensus about the kind of public services we want in Scotland and how | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
they are to be paid for. Whilst we will make the case today for using | :46:15. | :46:18. | |
the powers of this Parliament to invest in public services, we also | :46:19. | :46:21. | |
make the case for using the resources we have in the most | :46:22. | :46:27. | |
effective and efficient way to tackle the big challenges we face of | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
deep-rooted povertiy and deprivation in our communities through a | :46:33. | :46:37. | |
comprehensive anti-poverty strategy for Scotland and for a more direct | :46:38. | :46:42. | |
Government action to grow our economy increasing the resources | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
available for investment. So, in a time where too many of our public | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
services are struggling to cope and some veer towards crisis, we say | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
Government should increase the tax take by asking those who can pay a | :46:56. | :47:03. | |
bit more, to do so. But alongside this, we also say we must be more | :47:04. | :47:09. | |
ambition in driving our economy in increasing the tax take in the | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
medium term by supporting more people into decent jobs. The budget | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
has is stands does not and will not achieve these aims. Let me begin | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
with local government. I want to make the point, if we are to succeed | :47:22. | :47:28. | |
in tackling poverty, closing the attainment gap, developing high | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
quality local services and growing the economy across Scotland, we node | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
to do Government differently. The fact is that Scotland is one of the | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
most centralised country in the Western World. The creation of the | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
Scottish Parliament in 1999 did not lead to a continuing devolution of | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
power closer to the people. Instead, we have seen politicians in Holyrood | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
trying to control more and more of the power and decision making away | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
from the local level. This centralist approach has led to a | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
much weaker relationship between local and Central Government in | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
Scotland and all too often, a lower quality of service has been | :48:12. | :48:18. | |
delivered as a result. I wonder if the member would accept the | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
relationship between central and local government was extremely poor | :48:23. | :48:27. | |
under the last Labour/Liberal Democrat administration because of | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
ring-fencing? It is a fact it is extremely broken down, the | :48:33. | :48:35. | |
relationship between central and local government right now. This | :48:36. | :48:45. | |
failure to build on that relationship has also resulted in | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
the failure to bring together the key people and organisations needed | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
to plan and drive our economy at the local, regional and national level. | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
One size fits all central control is not best for Scotland. | :49:00. | :49:01. | |
its Dean Lockhart, James Kelly from Scottish Labour, and Ross Greer | :49:02. | :49:04. | |
Now let's speak to some MSPs at Holyrood. | :49:05. | :49:05. | |
I'm joined by Ash Denham for the SNP, For the Conservatives | :49:06. | :49:08. | |
its Dean Lockhart, James Kelly from Scottish Labour, and Ross Greer | :49:09. | :49:11. | |
On the budget, Ross Greer, have the Greens given up? Are you not going | :49:12. | :49:24. | |
to do a deal on the budget? We're style trying to negotiate with the | :49:25. | :49:27. | |
Scottish Government. The negotiations are pretty difficult. | :49:28. | :49:30. | |
We're coming from two different places on tax policy in particular. | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
We're trying to come to a deal at this point. You won't do a deal | :49:35. | :49:39. | |
unless they change their tax proposals, is that correct? | :49:40. | :49:42. | |
Fundamentally what it's about. We can more likely come to an agreement | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
on spending priorities. Tax is critical here. That's how we avoid | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
making unnecessary cuts. Therefore, they're more likely to do a deal | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
with the Liberal Democrats? They're not insisting they change their tax | :49:57. | :50:01. | |
policies? The spending proposals the Liberal Democrats have proposed are | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
theirs to deend if. I don't #125e thinkle Scottish Government will | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
agree with that. An agreement with us would require a shift from the | :50:11. | :50:16. | |
Government to a fairer and more progressive taxation system. James | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
Kelly, why are you ruling out any agreement? Will you vote against the | :50:21. | :50:24. | |
Scottish budget under any circumstances? The SNP have made is | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
quite clear they're putting forward a budget which entails ?327 million | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
of cuts to local councils. That means jobs will be lost, libraries | :50:34. | :50:38. | |
could be closed and care packages under threat. That's completely | :50:39. | :50:43. | |
unacceptable to us. As an alternative... What should they cut | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
instead given much of their budget still comes from London? Are you | :50:49. | :50:52. | |
saying they should ignore the Barnet settlement or what would you suggest | :50:53. | :50:56. | |
cutting instead? The important thing about this budget is the Government | :50:57. | :51:00. | |
have much more in terms of tax raising powers. It is completely | :51:01. | :51:08. | |
unacceptable those on the top rate earning over ?150,000 aren't being | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
asked to pay a bit more to protect local communities and support local | :51:13. | :51:19. | |
councils. Dean Lockhart, are there any circumstances imaginable in | :51:20. | :51:22. | |
which you would support the Scottish budget? We've said we don't want | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
Scotland to be the highest tax part of the UK. That's because we really | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
need to boss the economy in Scotland. Economic growth here is | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
the third of rest of the UK. We're saying keep Scotland competitive | :51:36. | :51:38. | |
with the rest of the UK in tax. Going forward, the Scottish budget | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
will depend on growth in Scotland and the growth of tax revenues | :51:43. | :51:46. | |
coming from the Scottish workforce. It is really important that our | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
fundamental priority is increasing the economy. If we're the highest | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
tax part of the UK that's not a budget we can support. Ash Denham, | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
one imagines the Scottish Government, the SNP will be very | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
reluctant to change their proposals in tax? So does that mean you're | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
more likely to find some agreement with the Liberal Democrats than the | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
Greens? What we've put forward is a budget for growth. A budget for | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
investment into infrastruck fewer and a budget that protects local | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
services and prioritises things which are important to local people. | :52:21. | :52:26. | |
That's not what I asked you. In any budget, I'm not criticising you for | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
making compromises. Any Government has to do that. It would be easier | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
for you to compromise on spending, would it not, than to compromise on | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
your tax proposals? The budget we've put forward is best on the manifesto | :52:40. | :52:43. | |
commitments we went to the public with. There's strong support for the | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
budget that we've put forward. Obviously, the Scottish Government | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
is listening. We're listening to the Parliament and also listening to | :52:52. | :52:54. | |
other stakeholders. Clearly, we will need to do a deal on this. So, I | :52:55. | :52:58. | |
believe there are negotiations that are ongoing. At the moment, we don't | :52:59. | :53:02. | |
know, watch this space. We don't think is this is a time to put up | :53:03. | :53:06. | |
taxes across the board. Families are struggling at the moment. We've all | :53:07. | :53:10. | |
the uncertainty coming at us because of the Tories seem determined to | :53:11. | :53:16. | |
drag Scotland off a Brexit cliff edge. This is a time to protect | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
families' budgets, investment in public services and keep the economy | :53:22. | :53:28. | |
going. Talking of Brexit clef edges, Mike Russell seemed to be suggesting | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
in Parliament, if I understood him correctly, he seemed to be | :53:33. | :53:36. | |
suggesting the joint ministerial committee, this meeting of the | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
devolved representatives of the devolved Governments, would have to | :53:42. | :53:47. | |
unanimously accept triggering Article 50 before it could go ahead? | :53:48. | :53:54. | |
Did he just make that up or is there any possible basis for saying that? | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
No-one has ever understood the joint ministerial committee is something | :53:59. | :54:02. | |
that has to come to unanimous decisions. That's no what it does? | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
What we're saying is whilst we welcome the decision made in the | :54:08. | :54:11. | |
Supreme Court ruling yesterday that the Sewell convention is not a legal | :54:12. | :54:18. | |
obligation, we think it is clearly a democratic obligation and Scotland's | :54:19. | :54:21. | |
voice must be heard. And if it isn't, it will be a defeat for | :54:22. | :54:25. | |
democracy. What we are saying is Scotland must be consulted. | :54:26. | :54:31. | |
Consultation must be consultation. Consultation is one thing, saying | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
that the joint ministerial committee has to approve the triggering of | :54:37. | :54:40. | |
Article 50 is completely different from what you've just said? The SNP | :54:41. | :54:44. | |
will put forward a number of amendments to the Act of | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
Parliament... That's a different issue. One of those will be about | :54:49. | :54:55. | |
the JMC. Dean Lockhart, do you see this as being... Well, Ash Denham, | :54:56. | :55:03. | |
she said this will be one of the amendments the SNP put forward to | :55:04. | :55:09. | |
the bill? The SNP are free to put forward amendments in terms of the | :55:10. | :55:15. | |
legislation put for for the EU. The Supreme Court judgment is clear this | :55:16. | :55:21. | |
is a reserve matter. The UK is an EU member state. It is the UK who will | :55:22. | :55:27. | |
decide the leaving, the terms upon which we leave the EU the judgment | :55:28. | :55:32. | |
was very clear. The SNP are using Brexit as a political football to | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
agitate for another referendum which will create more uncertainty. To be | :55:38. | :55:41. | |
fair to Ash Denham, she didn't mention another referendum. James | :55:42. | :55:46. | |
Kelly, I presume you agree with every word James Lockhart said, | :55:47. | :55:54. | |
would you? Sorry, Dean Lockhart. It is really regrettable we lost the | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
referendum. I campaigned strongly for remain. Brexit is a disaster. | :56:00. | :56:08. | |
The join ministerial committee would have to ewe none mousily approve | :56:09. | :56:15. | |
triggering Article 50? He needs to back up what he's saying with facts | :56:16. | :56:19. | |
and analysis to see if there's any accuracy. In one sentence, do you | :56:20. | :56:25. | |
like the idea or is it pure bluster? Decisions which have a huge impact | :56:26. | :56:29. | |
on the powers of the devolved Parliaments in Scotland, Wales and | :56:30. | :56:32. | |
Northern Ireland, should be issues we come to a collective agreement | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
on. The Government in Westminster isn't interested in do EU doing | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
that. They want to override us We'll have to leave it there. | :56:42. | :56:50. | |
This join ministerial committee, it's different if Ash Denham's | :56:51. | :56:56. | |
saying they can put that as an amendment to the bill and if | :56:57. | :57:00. | |
Parliament approved it, the joint ministerial committee would have to? | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
I've been in meetings of the joint ministerial committee, it's not | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
nearly as exiting as the Brexit Minister in Holyrood makes it sound. | :57:10. | :57:16. | |
If they pass the amendment, the meetings could get very exciting | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
indeed. Indeed. The SNPs have promised they'll put forward auto#50 | :57:22. | :57:24. | |
amendments to the Government's bill even before they've seen a single | :57:25. | :57:28. | |
line of what the bill's going to say. They'll put forward 50 | :57:29. | :57:34. | |
amendments which seems to me a peculiar round number. Ash said | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
Scotland's voice needs to be heard on this. People have been saying | :57:39. | :57:44. | |
knowingly over the past 24 hours, it depends on how they produce this | :57:45. | :57:49. | |
bill how many amendments are put forward which has left me and others | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
thinking, sorry, why? One theory is the Government will put forward a | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
one-liner bill. Why stop people putting amendments? It doesn't stop | :58:00. | :58:07. | |
them. The first thing to vote on is a programme motion discussings how | :58:08. | :58:11. | |
long the arm will discuss this in committee stage. Does that mean a | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
shorter time if one line? Maybe two days to pull a figure out of the | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
air. You then put in 50 amendments and they get talked out? No, not all | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
of the amendments will be called by the Deputy Speaker. He has to chose | :58:26. | :58:30. | |
which amendments he will select to be debated. Not everything that | :58:31. | :58:34. | |
tabled. The ones he likes you but with an eye to the fact as you've | :58:35. | :58:39. | |
suggested, there might only be two days? Yes. And he will try to get as | :58:40. | :58:46. | |
broad a subject matter as possible. Maybe 20 amend thes on the same | :58:47. | :58:50. | |
subject, he'll pick one of them. Thank you. That's cleared things up | :58:51. | :58:52. | |
a bit. Thank you. Join us for First Minister's | :58:53. | :58:54. | |
Questions tomorrow Robert Burns never travelled | :58:55. | :58:56. | |
to America. In America, Burns was | :58:57. | :59:16. | |
the 19th century Elvis. Many, from Lincoln to Dylan, | :59:17. | :59:21. | |
have identified with his works. | :59:22. | :59:26. |