20/10/2012 Scottish National Party Conference

Good afternoon. Welcome to our live coverage of the SNP's autumn

conference. Delegates are gathering for two here Alex Salmond's speech

in a few moments time. He is able to brandish the Edinburgh agreement

which paves the way for the independence referendum but the

party faithful have been divided. The SNP change their anti-Nato

stance following a passionate debates. I have marched for CND. I

have protested against Trident. I demonstrated against the Iraq war.

I am tired marching. I want a seat for our government in the

situations of power. Who dares wins. Angus Robertson is reported to have

said after winning the crucial NATO vote and it has been quite a

conference so far. I am joined here by Professor John Curtice of

Strathclyde University and Brian Taylor our political editor is

standing by in the concert hall. Good afternoon. Thank you for

joining me. It has been quite a conference already. Alex Salmond

will be arguing in his speech in a few moments for a Yes vote in the

referendum that he had to argue for it in the NATO vote yesterday.

he actually sat silent and grinned gently and persuasively throughout

and nobly applauded all of the prone NATO speakers, those in

favour of Scottish membership of NATO and he raised his hand very

firmly in favour of the resolution changing party policy. I think he

will make a reference to it right at the outset of his speech and I

gather it was being updated just a short time ago. I think he will

describe it as a sense of maturity within the party and an open debate

with open division within the party and a decision agreed that. I think

it was promulgated within the party more generally. I don't think there

will be rancour because those who lost were feeling sore and there

were some hard words used during the debate but the prize of

independence for the SNP is so gigantic and so yearned for over

the decades that I think they would subjugate any discontent there was

lingering after the NATO debate. course here in the studio is the

Edinburgh agreement that Alex Salmond signed on Monday. It is

quite something to offer up to conference. It concentrates minds.

They always expected there would be a referendum. There are no

agreements there would be a referendum or a strike fight --

straight fight on independence. That is what everyone wanted in

their hearts. They understood the strategic regions where Alex

Salmond was toying with other options but what they really want

is to get down to the fighter back independence. I think that was a

key factor in the debate yesterday. You heard the click from the Kenny

MacAskill speech and in essence he was saying there is a principal

argument for NATO which others were making that he was making the

pragmatic argument saying that the folk in Scotland want the

reassurance of being in NATO and the defence posture that it

represents. We should not remove that reassurance when we are trying

to persuade them to vote for independence. A more from later but

I will let you get into the concert hall to hear the speech. Professor

John Curtice, it has been quite a conference sofa but now it is time

for the SNP to concentrate on the bike for the yes vote. A indeed.

Although this is normally an SNP party conference, this is a major

occasion for the Yes campaign and I suspect most of the campaign speech

this afternoon will be not about what the SNP is doing in government

as opposed to trying to put some impetus behind the Yes campaign.

The truth is it needs some impetus. We have had a opinion polls in the

last fortnight confirming the evidence that says the Yes campaign

is starting the campaign from behind and the support has slipped

during the course of this year. It suggests a drop of about 9% in

support for independence since January this year. What he will

undoubtedly focus on his the economic arguments for independence.

The research I have done and plenty of other evidence suggests that

unless people are convinced that Scotland is going to be financially

stronger, perhaps they might be better off, people are not going to

vote for independence. At the moment, at least, at best only

around one-third of people in Scotland think that Scotland would

be better off financially and independence. It is an argument the

SNP badly need to win and I think that is something he will focus on.

He needs to move on from the arguments that will convince people

in the hall witches, you were Scottish and you want to be a

separate independent company -- country, two outside the hall which

is a promise of a financially better world and independence is

the way to achieve that. Nicola Sturgeon is addressing the --

delegates in the hall at the moment and introducing Alex Salmond. It is

interesting that you are pointing out the polls from when the

referendum was announced in January, that they seem to have slipped a

bit for independence. It must be very worrying. It must be quite a

considerable worry for the Yes campaign. What must be at the back

of their mind is that Perhaps from January onwards Scotland began to

realise that we are really were going to have a referendum on

independence and is there a possibility that now the choice has

become a real one that at least some people in Scotland have drawn

back a bit and said, hang on, I am not sure that is what I really want.

One thing we have discovered is that it remains the case even last

year that around half of the people in Scotland say they are worried

about the prospect of independence as well as persuading people of the

financial benefits of independence, Alex Salmond has got to provide

reassurance. They have got to convince people that this is not

something I have to be worried about that something to be

confident about. Confidence is a word that he he frequently uses and

says the country needs to be confident and he is absolutely

right. Eight Scotland is going to vote in favour of independence it

has to feel confident about the prospect of a happening. Brian

Taylor was pointing that out on Monday on the day that they signed

the agreement, doubt and reassurance. He is trying to

provide that reassurance when times are tough, and economic times are

tough, where do people tend to go to? They tend to stick to what they

are safe with? This is something that will be interesting about this

speech. There are two ways of looking at it, it is a tough

financial world globally so can Scotland as a small country survive

in that environment? Is a more hostile environment one that makes

people drawback? Insofar as what Alex Salmond and the Yes campaign

task is, it is to persuade people that an independent Scotland would

be better off than a Scotland in the union, given that the United

Kingdom has substantial economic problems so to that extent his task

becomes the the up. It is worth remembering that the Independent's

campaign first really took off in the 1970s when Britain was last in

serious economic trouble. A thank you very much for that. There is

Alex Salmond, the SNP leader and First Minister appearing on the

stage at Perth concert hall and about to give his lead a's speech.

Let us listen in now. What she didn't tell you, delegates,

is that I phoned reverse charges! That is the great thing about

having Nicola Sturgeon as Deputy First Minister of Scotland is that

you don't have to ask why for First Minister's questions. Getting from

A to B can be a problem. This is how it was, I was on the train

yesterday. LAUGHTER.

In a first-class carriage with my second class ticket.

Someone came up to me impudently doing his job. I said to him, don't

you never why am, my man? I and the Chancellor of the Exchequer! He is

said to me he was these of all Russia and I should get off the

train. Delegates, there is a serious point

in this for us and for all Scotland. Why on earth do we allow this bunch

of incompetent Lord snooty's to be in a position of authority over our

country. CHEERING.

Why does the Labour Party think it can survive getting into bed with

them in the No campaign? Delegates, when I opened our

proceedings just a couple of days ago, I spoke of the giants of our

party and I said that I trusted this conference. This is a trust

based not on a single result for a specific vote but on the way that I

knew this party of our was would conduct itself in debate. Yesterday

I have no doubt we saw one of the finest debates in our party's

history. APPLAUSE.

I am certain that those giants, let us remember them, Robert Macintyre,

Neil McCormac, Margaret Ewing, listening and watching yesterday's

debate on the future defence policy of power country would have been

proud of the party. APPLAUSE.

Conference, there are good reasons why the people of Scotland have

placed their trust in the SNP over to Scottish elections. They have

shone out like a beacon from this conference hall yesterday afternoon.

Different views, honestly held, openly debated, democratically

agreed. When we started this conference we had already

demonstrated over five years that we have a party that is more than

capable of being Scotland's devolved government. Today the

people of Scotland know that because of the manner in which we

have conducted ourselves, we are a party of being capable of being

Scotland's first independent government.

APPLAUSE. The two years that lie ahead of us

now are the most important in our party's history and our country's

recent history. They will secure a better future for our families and

our nation, a future that starts with a yes vote. Earlier this week

I met with the prime minister to sign the Edinburgh agreement. It is

an agreement which gives our own Parliament unchallenged legal

authority to hold a referendum, which agrees the process, respect

the outcome and commits both governments to working with that

decision in the best interests of our people. Delegates, it is game

on for Scotland. APPLAUSE.

That referendum creates a once in a generation opportunity. That must

include the new generation. 16 and 17 year-olds, young Scots he can

marry and register for the army and paid tax, young Scots who I can

confirm today will have the opportunity to vote on Scotland's

future. APPLAUSE.

It is interesting that the political parties to have refused

to support 16-year-old and 78-year- old voting on a changing their tune.

They now say how important it is that all of them vote, not just the

ones on the register. Conference, I can tell you today that we intend

to introduce a bill over the next few weeks that shall make it

possible for all 16-year-old and 17 year olds to vote, if that is the

will of Scotland's parliament. APPLAUSE.

With Scotland's future in Scotland's hands we can create a

better country, we can choose a different path. This referendum is

not just about an independent Scotland. It is about a belief that

for Scotland there can be, there must be, a better way. Of course it

is not and has never been just about achieving our constitutional

objectives, it is about using that power to create a more prosperous

economy and a more just society. We know that there are many of our

fellow citizens that remain to be convinced about the merits of

independence. We also know that there is a majority for change in

this country. We know that at heart people trust their own parliament

far more than they will ever trust Westminster. We know that when

asked about individual powers, with Rick the defence, social welfare,

people want these decisions to be controlled in Scotland. We know

that economic policy should be decided by the Scottish Parliament.

Let us put these popular aspirations together. A parliament

that decides on social welfare, Trident, the economy and represents

Scotland on the world stage and you have an independent parliament. For

independence is not a single event, it is a process, but it is a

process that involves more than just the transfer of powers. It is

a process by which all of us accept the responsibility for changing our

country and our communities for the In 1997, we made the case for a

fairer Scotland and three quarters of the people voted for that

proposition, people across Scotland to wanted a stronger say in

decisions that affect them and their families. And over the years,

that appetite has grown. They have seen what a parliament achieves and

they like it. Many want independence and many want powers,

but the majority of our fellow- citizens off for change. In 2014,

the voice of the people of Scotland will be heard again. Today, I ask

all of those who wanted that fair and democratic country to pause and

reflect on the kind of nation they would deny it -- they would now

like Scotland to be. To think of the progress that has been made and

to consider it -- and to consider the next step on Scotland's journey.

Friends, I One Nation understands what we need to do to make Scotland

the police should be, to build a fairer nation and turn potential

into prosperity. The choice is clear. Scotland can vote No and

secured note -- and Secure nothing, we can vote Yes to get the platform

we need. We speak to those who said yes to Scotland before and will say

yes to Scotland, and to progress, The SNP once published a pamphlet

about the Scotland and we seek. That is a country united by

ambition and confidence, that achieves its potential and wear

haute eclipses fear. Over two years, the task is clear. To tell the

truth about Scotland and what we can achieve and to proclaim that we

have all we truly need to prosper, that together, we can rebuild this

nation, creating a Scotland that flourishes once again. Standing

alongside these other nations as new partners and true friends. That,

delegates, is the platform on which we shall win independence for our

He as for the No campaign. Their objective is somewhat different.

They are against independence for one reason, because it would be run

by an independent Scotland for the people of Scotland. Instead of

telling people what we can do, at they tell us what we cannot do. The

irony is that most of them are chained to a Westminster Parliament

that cannot run a railway, never mind if a country! For -- a country.

Labour is the party that brought the country to its financial knees.

The Tories are a shambles. Collectively, they tell us Scotland,

we are incapable of running our country! A message is clear enough,

abandon hope, a new who vote No! We are abandoning -- we are Roques off

Fay! -- we are a bunch of rogues! Westminster is beyond salvation.

But a social democratic Scotland can still be won. According to the

Labour Party, Scotland has become something for nothing country. So

exactly who we are these people who want something for nothing? Is it a

pensioner who wants the right to travel and the fear of not being

able to fund their care? The family and �16,000 a year who had to

choose previously between prescribed medicines before this

Government restored to health service free for her for those who

needed it? Who is it a student who now has the right way free

education so they can redeem their commitment to society through free

education? Those who want something for nothing, according to Labour,

are your friends, neighbours, the workers, at parents, grandchildren,

children, so let us tell the Labour leadership about the reality of our

fellow Scots. They do not want something for nothing, they just

want the right to live in a country which understands the importance of

society. That knows the value in not just the price of the services

we hold dear. These are the fruits not just of this party or

government but of a Scottish Parliament that chose to reflect

the nation in these ways. It is a social contract between Parliament

and people. Some college universality. Who -- as some call

it. They say it's time has passed. I call it human decency and it's

time is now. -- its time. I would be tempted to say that Labour knows

the price of everything and the value of nothing. But they do not

even know the price of anything! These great games of the parliament,

cost just over 3% of the Scottish budget. Since 2007 and, John

Swinney's efficiency programme and a Scottish government -- and the

Scottish government has saved more An interesting figure because the

guru but Labour have chosen for their cuts Commission said in 2007

that no government could manage even 1% a year -- that Labour. You

cannot manage if you put bureaucracy before people and if

your response to every challenge is to give up, that is New Labour. I

will wait is very different. We expect public services to be run

properly -- away is different. We judged on output and not just input.

We can run the police and fire services of Scotland on a Scottish

basis more efficiency while protecting the frontline. We know

that free personal care is not a giveaway to the older generation.

It removes fear and provides dignity, it boosts the independence

and well-being of tens of thousands of fellow-citizens. It prevents the

needs for many -- the need for many older people to be admitted to

geriatric wards and helps to support them in our homes and

communities. Conference, it was the vanguard of turning values into law,

as the Labour Party once said. We believe that the parliament's

policies and personal care, transport and education, it

promotes solidarity and prevents the bona bowl from being isolated,

and does not discriminate against hard-working families who have

saved. -- and prevents them vulnerable. Have no doubt that what

was gained by devolution and can only now by a -- can only now be

Her no sooner have Labour moved on to Tory ground that if the other

Tories became even more extreme. They declared that only 12% of

Scottish households were contributing to the country, only

12% were responsible for generating Scotland's wealth. Even Mitt Romney

only dismissed 47% of the US population! That is not good enough

for the Tory leader in Scotland, she dismissed 88% of the country!

Let's forget for a second that she got her calculations wrong and we

are the same figure as the UK, she forgot that corporate tax and

public sector workers, she forgot about all of them. Consider the

mentality of every pensioner in this country as unproductive. I

know a lot of pensioners who have never sworn at a police officer or

Who put him he and I do not know a single Scottish pensioner -- and I

do not know a single Scottish pensioner who has been less

productive than David Cameron or George Osborne! Delegates, the

Tories will wonder why it about 13% support them in the Scottish polls,

but they are lucky! Labour and Tory, the great pillars of the union.

United in a death grip programme to sweep away concessionary travel,

free prescriptions and education. Some in Holyrood think that

Labour's new approach is clever. Conference, I have no doubt it is

not wise. It is not wise to end the social solidarity that benefits all

the people. It is not good politics to betray the fact they would

continue with Tory austerity if they were returned to government.

At the Scottish Trades Union Congress described Labour's views

as a screen -- as extreme. Last year, Scotland lost a giant of the

trade union movement, at Campbell Christie was loved by many for his

principles and his courage and wisdom. In an interview before his

passing, this is what he had to say. People say we cannot afford things

now. In 1948, we could not afford the National Health Service and

pension schemes but we did it, and when you look at the question of

provision and support, you need to remember how little they had been

back then and how important it was to make it happen. It was in that

spirit that devolution was one. Devolution brought to life by

people of all persuasions and of none, people with a vision of a

better and different Scotland. Now Labour's leaders tell Scotland we

have well-off enough for Westminster's weapons of mass

destruction, but they say we are to pork for Scotland's free personal

care. If that is the price of London government, it is a price

Who this party, this Government, it makes no apology for standing

behind four-square the devolution it -- the gains of the devolution

Iraq and against those hard-pressed families that an affair and to work

hard to extend these gains -- but to leave -- the devolution argument.

The process of early intervention will prevent the spending, by which

we will build the platform of opportunity for all Scottish people.

Even under the most extreme budgetary pressure from Westminster,

John Swinney has diverted substantial sums, �500 million, two

children's early years, after reshaping care for older people and

reducing re-offending. Within the limits of devolution, there is only

so much we can achieve, but, conference, that will not stop us

doing what is right and to point the way to a better future. We want

Scotland to be the best place in the world for a child to grow up. I

am proud to save the family nurse partnership has already made a

valuable difference to the lives of the families and four health boards

that use this programme. Since 2010, B initiative have supported her --

has supported 450 first-time mothers and their children. The

benefits of family nurses are clear to anyone meeting them and the

families they help. On Monday, I met with one nurse, Caroline

Mackenzie, in Edinburgh, who told me of the fantastic work they do

helping to improve the health of mother and child, to increase

employment prospects and helping children's readiness for school and

future academic achievements. We aim to be the best in the world at

implementation of the family nurse partnership. So I am delighted to

announce that with �11 million over the next two years, we will ensure

the establishment of this partnership across Scotland by the

end of 2015, benefiting thousands of families and giving some of the

most vulnerable children the best Conference, let our message be

heard clearly. This party, Scotland's party, has and never

will lack ambition for our future generations. Our ambition for

Scotland's children goes further. The country we pass on to the next

generation must be better than the country we have today. Across

Scotland I know that every parent hopes that the life their child

enjoys will be better than their own, that their sons and daughters

will see greater security, opportunity, happiness. Friends,

for the first time in generations, this natural progression is now in

doubt. That is why being independent is so important, not

just for the Scotland of today but for the Scotland of tomorrow. If

independence is to mean anything it must improve the chances, the life

chances of every single young Scot. Delegates, that is why the first

fruits of an independent parliament should be felt by our youngest

Scots. It is our duty to lay these foundations for a stronger future,

just as it's our duty to stand up for the challenges that have

haunted Scottish Society for so long. During the debate yesterday

some delegates suggested our projected budget was low. I

understand that and there must keep the nation secure and we shall.

What we missed was that our plans are almost �1 billion lower than

what we pay to Westminster at the moment. Much of that will be saved

by ending our payments for the Trident programme.

APPLAUSE. Let us call it the independence the

dividend. Over the next year we will spell out where that -- what

that independence dividends could do for services and for jobs and we

will start by committing to give every child an equal chance in an

independent Scotland. A couple of weeks ago I took advice on a family

centre -- I visited a family centre. Let us revolve -- let us resolve

for this conference to build these centres in every community in an

independent Scotland. APPLAUSE. This country of Scotland, all of us,

our community, our still played -- are still paying the price for the

last Westminster recession. To many of our fellow citizens were

forgotten. Then it Scotland was powerless in the face of a

Westminster government that looked the other way and passed by on the

other side. It left communities, families bereft of hope. Today the

end of the story can be different. From the powers of the evolution,

this Government has delivered a record number of modern

apprenticeships, offering 26,000 young Scots this year the chance of

work and training. We have protected...

APPLAUSE. We have protected the numbers going

to college and we have an all-time record high of young Scots going to

university, dated vindicating our policy of free education.

-- totally vindicated. I know that for family is the most

important thing today is finding a job and keeping a job. My

frustration is this. At a time when Scotland is generating a larger

share of taxes and a share of UK spending, as we heard yesterday on

the latest figures Scotland contributes nine Quiz 6% of

taxation baguettes back 3.6% of expenditure. Financially stronger

than the UK. -- but gets. We have access to our own resources and we

could invest more, borrow less and save more for the future. We could

protect services. Currently, when I demand a new investment to create

new jobs and kick-start the economy Westminster can say no, as George

Osborne did again just this week. Conference, that no is not just to

me as the First Minister of Scotland, it is an ode to thousands

of our fellow Scots. Men and women who seek nothing more than the

opportunity to have affaire des's work. Let the message go out from

this conference to that Conservative Chancellor, Scotland

is not in the mood to take no for As Scotland's government, we

redouble our efforts. We work together Creating Small businesses

and giving them the most competitive tax regime in these

islands. We support budding businessmen and women. With their

limited powers we do have this Government and its agencies

continue to work with every fibre of our being to encourage jobs and

growth in this country. For example, in the last two years in a row,

Scotland has been the top performing location in these

islands for foreign, direct investment. Across the world people

see Scotland for who we are, a land of skills, committed people, and

worthy of investment. Today I can announce yet another vote of

confidence in Scotland and the people. The Hong Kong

Telecommunications Company have announced that they will be

creating almost 400 new jobs in Glasgow. This will almost double

the number of workers at their sight and I welcome that many of

these jobs have agreed to be targeted at young people.

Conference, this is a much needed and a welcome boost for the Glasgow

and Scottish economies. APPLAUSE.

What we strive for, as a government of a devolved Scotland, what we

strive for we can actually achieve as the Government of an independent

Scotland. Day after day, year after year, we can take small steps

forward and was Scotland needs is bigger and bolder strides. It is

time for Scotland to move up a gear. Delegates, can any of us look

around our country and can anybody say that Scotland is as good as it

could be, that we are fair enough, equal enough, that we are making

the most of the talents and the resources that we have been given?

Westminster has had its chance. Westminster has fallen chants --

Westminster has fallen short. It is not just that in Westminster and in

London we have a government that is unwilling to do its best for

Scotland, it is incapable of putting Scotland first. For

Scotland, what we have today is no longer good enough. We face a

Westminster government that is hell-bent on pulling us -- pulling

our society apart at the seams. Austerity, a one-way street with

tax cuts for the rich and benefit cuts for the poor. Billions to be

spent on new nuclear weapons while families struggle to heat their

homes. What kind of brave new world is this? Now is the time for

Scotland to choose a different future. Using hour vast resources,

our own tax-based for the future. Universities can go to the top.

Growing industries in food, drink, tourism, like science, our

reputation for excellence in Engineering across the sciences.

Given all that we have, I ask again, why isn't Scotland doing better?

Let us be clear. Westminster would put this first class nation in the

second-class carriages. No more second best for Scotland.

It is time, it is past time, for a fresh start for our nation, when

opportunities will be seized and not lost. Our resources will be

harnessed for the common good and not squandered. We will use our

wealth to nurture, not destroy. We seek independence for reason, it is

not for me, it is not for this party, it is for a new opportunity

for every person in Scotland watching today. Independence is

about family and future. It is for a more equal Scotland, the

opportunity to change our nation for the good. If we are going to

reach a flourishing Green economy, a fairer society, a better future,

what better prize is there for any nation? Scotland's time is coming.

Our home rule journey began so many years passed by so few is coming

out to its conclusion. We say yes to Scotland and two independents.

APPLAUSE. The SNP leader and First Minister

receiving a standing ovation at there. He criticised the

Westminster governments that were led by incompetent Lord Snootys and

pointed to his party which is capable of being the first

independent government for Scotland. He said they will introduce

something in the next few weeks that will make it possible for 16-

year-old and 17 year-olds to vote. He wants to rebuild a nation I can

build a Scotland Act can flourish. He criticised the Labour Party for

there's something for nothing culture and he did not want to end

the social solidarity that benefits all the people as he put it. He

said the time is coming, yes to Scotland, yes to independence. That

is the scene in the hall in Perth. The ovation continues. With me in

the studio is Professor John Curtice of Strathclyde University.

Your initial reaction? I think three things to pick out about the

speech in terms of the tone and style and the it was appealing to.

The first thing was the degree to which Alex Salmond tried to present

independence as the next stage in a home rule journey. In a sense very

clearly trying to appeal to those people who voted for devolution

back in 1997 and perhaps in particular to those people who now

won the Scottish Parliament to be more powerful but hitherto have

been saying they are not in favour of independence. There does seem to

be quite a lot of appetite for more taxation powers that welfare power

was for the Scottish Parliament. Clearly this is an attempt for

somebody to try and broaden the net that might be brought into the

independence camp. How was he doing that? One of the crucial ways is a

very strong concentration in the speech on the defence of universal

free services, free prescriptions, free personal care, free tuition

fees. In a sense what he was trying to do was to say that these are

some of the distinctive things that Scotland now has as a result of

devolution and he used that as an example to demonstrate how Scotland

can do things differently and it could do more under independence

and presumably appealing to things that will be popular. The third

thing is what we expected. There is a lot of imported material about

the supposed economic advantages of independence, pointing out as the

SNP have repeatedly been doing during the conference, that the

Scotland share of the UK taxation is a bigger proportion than is the

proportion of UK spending and to suggest therefore that Scotland's

financial situation is not so bad. They are the three big things to

pick out. If you look at the evidence in the polls, Mr Alex

Salmond paid particular emphasis on the independence dividend that is

responsible for defence. That is one of the areas where there does

not seem to be an appetite for the Scottish party in favour. Or soak

the attitudes towards free personal care and university she tuition

fees does not seem to be as popular as the First Minister was trying to

suggest. Yes, you can see the strategy here but how far that

strategy will have residents outside that hall I think we have

Alex Salmond looks as if he is And he is holding up a placard, an

emphasis that the campaign is really starting across Scottish

independence after the Edinburgh Agreement on Monday. Photographers

are taking that a picture. Professor John Curtice is with me.

There is a different nature to this conference. The First Minister is

going to speak. And I hate to bring this to an end! But we have got

work to do. We have a referendum to win for Scotland, so let's go and

do it! The choreographer he is very different. We often expect the

leader to go back into the crowd and to be applauded. A we get a

sense that this is the big moment of the conference. -- we get. But

Alex Salmond stayed on stage and held up the yes placard. This was

not the end, the cathartic moment of a conference, but the beginning

of the Yes campaign. He admitted he had a realisation this was the

opportunity to win independence, but they have a lot of work to do

to try and succeed in securing it. The evidence suggests the campaign

for the Yes argument has the work to do. Angus Robertson was saying

to conference in his closing speech yesterday that they had to do this

because they had a mountain to climb. Absolutely, they were all

saying to the delegates, we have to try and widen the amount of people

who support this and if we suggest an independent Scotland will not be

in NATO, S Bull put people off. And quoting that 70% -- this will put

people off. And they are quoted at 75% were against this. You might

ask, most people in Perth might be against nuclear weapons, but is

that true of Scottish society? Most of the polling evidence that I have

found on attitudes to nuclear weapons suggests that it is not far

from us being gave fifty-fifty society. For example, the attitude

to the renewal of tightened. Of those people in favour of

independence at the moment opposed to nuclear weapons? I do not think

so. So if the SNP -- so the SNP should ask that this is -- should

ask if this is central to their vision for an independent Scotland.

By up to a concert hall, where the deputy -- we are back to the

concert hall, when Nicola Sturgeon is joining us. That was a very

interesting and to the conference speech, you on stage with the First

Minister. It looks as though it is again on, and there was a different

feel to this conference, with a lot to play for! -- game on. A we are

ready for the referendum. We have to persuade the majority of the

Scottish people we should be independent not for its own sake

but because this is the route to a better, healthier and Ferre

Scotland. There was a definite sense of determination and

determination -- and excitement. a crucial bit of information -- a

crucial bit of information that she will introduce a paving Bill to

allow 16 and 17-year-olds to vote. We think that they should have the

right to vote because it is the right thing to do it and not

because of any calculation of party advantage. People who can get

married and have children and register for the army should have a

say in the future of the country, so we will introduce this bill to

allow us to make the preparations that will allow that vote to be

given to all 16 and 17-year-olds, assuming that is the decision of

Parliament makes when we take the Referendum Bill through Parliament.

I suppose this will make the vote for 16 and 17-year-olds water tight

and not open to a challenge after the referendum. As think it is

important that if we say -- I think it is important that we say this is

an issue of principle, so votes for all 16 and 17-year-olds have to be

delivered at part of that cash as part of that. We will make all the

preparations to allow Parliament to make that decision, because it is

up to them to decide whether or not they agree with the government and

won 16 and 17-year-olds to vote. We will argue that case the very

strongly. Alex Salmond also said, we contribute in Scotland 9.6% of

the UK's taxation but receive a 9.3% of UK spending in return.

Better Together have said we contribute 53 billion and get 63

billion back. That is facile, it reflects the fact the UK is in debt,

spending more than it raises. We are saying Scotland is less in debt

than the rest of the UK and relatively better off. The benefit

of independence is that we get control of what resources are so we

can take action to get the economy growing and determine how we spend

those resources. We think it is better to invest in things around

early intervention, to give children the best start in life,

what that -- rather than wasting money on weapons of mass

destruction, which is what Westminster chooses to do. So the

shortfall is met by borrowing? The Labour Party say, the things we

have been Scotland's now can no longer be afforded. But the First

Minister was very critical of Johann Lamont, talking about social

solidarity and the things we can afford. How could we afford these

things in an independent Scotland when you look at the massive

borrowing short for? We afford those things now. John Swinney

makes those decisions every year and has published his budget for

next year, all those things are included. As the first minute us --

as the First Minister said, they amount to 3% of the Scottish budget.

The difference between us and playback is that we do not think

giving the old person the right to free travel or the young person the

right to a free education or making health care free, we do not think

that is part of something for nothing called to, but those are

the hallmarks of a decent society that we will fight so hard to

protect. Alex Salmond was critical of what he said was the Westminster

government's austerity programme and John Swinney said, austerity is

made in London. But you have said country's big and small have

suffered in the recession, so you cannot blame London for that!

is true, but we have a government that is in large part replicating

the mistakes of the previous Labour government. The austerity agenda is

making it the recession worse and is not helping to get borrowing

down, it is driving it up. Police say is echoed by a number of

credible economists around the country is that we need to see an

alternative and to see investment in the economy, particularly

capital investment, because that is the way to get the economy growing,

create jobs, get borrowing down. That Horwich -- the Tory agenda is

not just wrong but deeply counter- productive. The first mind instance

-- the First Minister said he did not want to pay the price for

weapons of mass destruction. She a hypocrisy, surely, when you decided

to join NATO yesterday. -- sheer. By a will say what they want to say,

at but our future continuing membership of NATO will be on

condition that Scotland has not play host to nuclear weapons --

they will say. Our view on weapons of mass destruction will not change.

This policy of joining NATO but not one to nuclear weapons does not

make much sense. It makes perfect sense. The vast majority of

countries there are members... Sorry. By if an American submarine

arrives at Faslane, you do not know what is on board -- if. It is

impossible to control. Of we will not play host to nuclear weapons,

that is an issue of principle for the SNP. The vast majority of

member countries are not nuclear countries and do not have nuclear

weapons, so it is a policy that makes perfect sense. What was

striking yesterday it is that the SNP is the only party that has the

guts to debate real issues openly before the conference in the manner

we did it yesterday and that is something that I am immensely proud

of as a long-standing member of this party. Do you think this

referendum could become a referendum on the Scottish

government itself, as you enter this crucial two year period?

are already five years into being a government and were elected with a

massive majority, and we are still ahead in the opinion polls, so I

think people's judgment on the Scottish government is thoroughly

good. People will have the opportunity to choose in two ears

if they want the opportunity to make the country Independent and if

they believed the decisions about Scotland are best taken by the

people who live and work here, that is the proposition that we will put

to the Scottish people and we look forward to arguing that and winning

back in two years' time. Thank you for rushing out of the conference

hall to speak to us! As we have been hearing, the SNP voted to

change its defence policy to support membership of NATO,

abandoning its policy to not be part of the military alliance.

Scotland will have to stay nuclear weapon Free. But they were accused

of hypocrisy in an impassioned debate. Our political correspondent

was watching. The modern SNP, two principal

policies can make yester independence and note to nuclear

weapons. This is DNA level stuff. Little wonder a debate about

whether an independent Scotland should be a member of the NATO

nuclear alliance provoked such passionate politics. Just outside

the conference is a very vocal reminder for the SNP. But Alex

Salmond hopes to convince those inside the hall and the majority of

Scotland that his party has a credible defence policy for an

independent Scotland. The hall was packed and the leadership had

picked this fight, could they win? This defence policy send an

important message to people in Scotland and friends, neighbours

and allies. We are preparing for the referendum and for an

independent Scotland with a defence policy best for Scotland. With

strong opposition. Weaver owed to join NATO and you warm -- if you

vote her to join NATO, you will not get rid of Trident. -- if you vote

to join. If you vote to join NATO, there will be pressure not to be

involved in CND, not to support causes like Palestine around the

globe at. I strongly resent the paraphrasing of this debate that,

if you are either on board with NATO or you -- or you are an

isolationist. It is inconceivable that a small country on the north-

west continent would not co-operate with immediate neighbours in the

British Isles and elsewhere. The idea the only radar systems are

This summer I was called a rebel for supporting party policy. I

don't know how many of you heard Good morning Scotland this morning

but Angus Robertson described NATO as a sound organisation. We would

have to ask ourselves why have we not endorse that sound organisation

for 30 years? It is not enough to say that you believe in

independence and then say that you want to belong to NATO. As far as I

am concerned, it is Chris -- it is hypocritical to say we want to have

nuclear weapons and we want to belong to NATO. How dare we say

that! He we are in Scotland and we do want Trident and week don't want

nuclear weapons but we want to belong to that club. It was time

for some leadership reinforcements. Kenny MacAskill, former party rebel

and current Justice Secretary ascended the stage to tell

delegates it was time to make some painful choices. I am no US poster

boy. I am certainly no US lap dog, as probably there are still a few

senators hunting me. We have moved on from being a party of protest to

a party of power. We are not here accident, but by design. We got a

toehold in 2007 and we built upon it with a majority in 2011 but we

are not there yet. We have got to win the biggest vote of all in 2014.

That is why, that is why, I have marched for CND, I have protested

against Trident, I demonstrated against the Iraq war and I am tired

of marching. I want a seat for our government in the situations of

power. I want our First Minister to enshrined the constitution of an

independent Scotland with a declaration that we will be nuclear

free. I want to make sure that we will send representatives to the

United Nations that will say a war is not in our name. I want to make

sure that we are there and I want to make sure that we win in 2014.

When votes were finally tallied, it was close, perhaps too close for

leadership comfort. The SNP is now a pro NATO party. An absolutely

fascinating debate there. John Curtice is still with me in the

studio. That was quite something yesterday, quite unusual to see

that at a party conference. It is becoming increasingly unusual,

certainly both the Labour parties and the Conservative Party have

very little in the way of open policy debate. The Liberal

Democrats still try at least you have policy votes in their

conference and the leadership was defeated on a couple of occasions

even on a quite important than about secret courts during the

court -- course of their conference. It is very interesting for a party

that has been in power for five years. The SNP have long had a

democratic tradition of one delegate, one vote, things been

decided ultimately by conference and you saw that fully on display

yesterday. There is no doubt it was a very impassioned debate with some

extremely effective speeches on both sides of the there are -- of

the debate. The most interesting thing will be to see how far down

the track what their opponents make of this. It is worth being aware

that in order to win that debate those who were in favour of NATO

had very, very firmly to promise that Scotland's decision to join

NATO would be conditional on it being a nuclear free country.

Clearly one possibility is, over the next few weeks or so, they are

the side will find some defence experts and retired generals that

say that actually NATO is unlikely to accept that condition and so

therefore you are still not actually bought into that club. It

is a not necessarily an issue on which the SNP will have closed down

quite as fully as the leadership might have hoped. Thank you very

much for that. We will continue the debate right now because Brian

Taylor is standing by in the concert hall. That is right. In the

foyer of the concert hall, an incredibly noisy foyer, all the

delegates have come out, having heard Alex Salmond yesterday. --

having heard Alex Salmond's speech. Yesterday the noise was inside the

hall. I am joined by two people who spoke vigorously. Thank you for

joining us. John Swinney, you won the argument, by God it was tight.

It was tied. I think it reflects the fact they are strongly held

views within the party by all members on this debate. I think

what was a credit to the party yesterday was the fact that the

debate was handled in an entirely open and transparent fashion, with

lots of time allocated, and everybody got their say. It was of

the highest quality of debate and in our supreme governing body we

came to our conclusion. Everyone who took part in the debate was a

credit to their arguments and to the party. You were using arguments

and the principle of the Corporation of the nation's budget

were also used in very strong pragmatic arguments saying, if you

don't vote for this nature -- NATO decision it will annoy the

electorate and it will lessen the chances of winning the referendum.

My argument was founded on two important points. One is that we

have an important obligation to put in place the correct defence

arrangements for Our country and to support our neighbours. Secondly we

have to put in place the most compelling arguments that can win

us the referendum on independence. The journey that we have completed

as a party on this question is one that I think reflects the

importance of defence corporation, a principle which established in

2002 and one has been taken further by the decision yesterday. Sandra

White, you lost the argument very narrowly. Is that the end of it in

your view or do you still try to bring a party policy back to where

it was? There is a democratic right of the people in the path -- at the

conference. What we are looking for his guarantees to give us some

evidence that they have come to an arrangement with NATO which will

guarantee that if we are in NATO that Trident will be removed.

are sceptical about that. You think that once you are in NATO that they

will not allow that. Yes, I have concerns regarding that. Eight is

something I will raise within the party and raised with others. It is

a democratic party and we have a right to do so. He also said that

Angus Robertson rates than argument that 75% of Scots in favour of NATO

and you have not met any. I have now! I just want to know where that

figure came from. I would like to find out about that. What about

those points? That NATO will not deal? I think the point that I was

made in relation to this argument is that the resolution is

conditional, the party's support for NATO membership is conditional

on two important points, firstly that nuclear weapons are removed

from Scottish soil and water as an for me, that is an absolute and I

will not compromise on that point. The second argument is that we

would retain our right to only support any military actions that

were sanctioned by the United Nations. That has been an utterly

found in part of the party's founding -- party policy for time

immemorial. That is why we have not been supportive of military

interventions in the past, because the United Nations have been

bypassed. He's absolutely fundamental. I am very on board and

he thoroughly on board and he has basically repeated what I had said.

If the resolution is passed with these conditions then I want the

reassurance is about these conditions and I will raise the

National Council or wherever. That is what I am looking for

reassurance. You suggested yesterday it was hypocritical to be

sheltering under the NATO umbrella while opposing Trident, do you

still adhere to that view? Yes I do. I don't like the language of

hypocrisy the traded around the conference hall on whichever side

of the argument that it was put forward on both sides. If we look

at the previous party position, one that Sondra supported, a

Partnership for Peace organisation is Associate members of NATO. In my

view this is in the same space and the same area of activity and what

we have done is we have essentially confirmed that we accept the need

for defence corporation with NATO, we accept it implicitly with a

partnership for peace in our previous position and we have taken

it a stage further. We have made it clear that that is utterly

conditional on the removal of nuclear weapons and conditional on

any support for military in for a mention this action by the United

Nations. On the issue of popularity, John, Kenny MacAskill, many others,

yesterday said that the changed policy will be popular with the

electorate, do you think to the contrary that it will cost votes?

think it possibly could cost votes. Perhaps Scotland is different from

other areas but we have to tested. We are at the left of some

political parties because of the latest of that we had so I think it

could cost rates. Or a different topic, while I have you here, Alex

Salmond referred in his speech tonight when 6% of taxation

provided by Scotland but only a small percentage of revenue. Those

figures in cash terms are different and there is a huge deficit of �10

billion. By the figures we spent more than we raised. The United

Kingdom spends more than it raises because we are in the total

financial govern created by the Labour party and made worse than at

the but -- by the Coalition. An independent Scotland would not

uniquely have a deficit. The United Kingdom is running up a colossal

deficit and what independence is about, what I'm saying, there. Her

making is that we have an opportunity to get Scotland onto

the agenda for growth if we utilise the resources and the assets of

Scotland to invest in our country. That is what the argument is about.

You rely on growth to narrow the gap? It relies on growth to make

the economy stronger. What about a giveaway of �500 per person when

you why in the red? Or the First Minister was talking about was how

we handle the relative strength of our financial position to invest in

the country, ensure that we create growth... It has always been the

argument. The crucial point is that Scotland is an economic least

strong country, we can build on that to create better prospects for

the economy, ensure we take children out of poverty, devour all

the people the security they need in their secured -- Society and

make an climate of gypsy for young people and make Scotland a more

prosperous country. Thank you very much for that discussion.

Let us hear more about the big speech yesterday. He asked the John

-- he asked George Osborne to change his direction. John Swinney

also used his party addressed to promote support for workers at

Halls of Broxbourne where there is expected loss of 7,000 jobs in

tough economic times. Right now we face the unprecedented

economic challenges of this recession without the powers that

other countries have at their disposal. Last week the IMF

downgraded their predictions for UK economic growth. They warned of the

consequences for the UK economy of continued austerity. The

Chancellor's mistakes are laid bare for to see, the lack of a coherent

economic plan, the front loading of cuts when the economy was most

fragile and crucially the decision to it shift the burden of cuts on

to capital investment. Everyone is now calling for a Plan B. We have

consistently argued for an approach that puts capital investment at the

heart of the solution. What makes this situation truly tragic is that

the Chancellor's actions are in themselves self-defeating. The lack

of growth means that far from cutting the deficit, the UK

Government's own prediction is of an extra �158 billion of borrowing

over the next five years, just to pay the cost of economic failure.

That will give rise to even more London cuts in 2015 or 2016 or 2017.

The status quo means that seven consecutive years of cuts and

counting. Today I call on George Osborne to end his obsession with

austerity. He should use the autumn Budget statement to change

direction. It is time he listened and it is time he learned. If he

weren't, it is time he left it to last, to Scotland, to shake a

better a comic future for our We are focused on helping Scotland

it through the recession. We will not stand by while people are

suffering. The economic challenge is serious and we face it every day,

looking at what we are doing and what more can be done. In recent

weeks, we have looked at the problems of the economy harshly as

we have fought alongside others to provide a viable future for fellow-

citizens employed at Halls of Broxbourne. We have worked to find

a way forward, ensuring that people working at Halls of Broxbourne are

supported will be our priority. So let me say clearly today we stand

firmly with the communities of West Lothian and will support economic

recovery from this body blow to the local economy. Conference, even

while we face setbacks, even while we struggle in the Strait jacket of

London's cut, we are making Scotland a more attractive place in

which to invest. The Ernst and Young survey of the most attractive

places for foreign investment in the UK was published again this

summer and it shows the difference your government is making. For the

second year running, Scotland outperformed every other part of

the United Kingdom, including London. Amazon, Samsung, business

is voting with their feet and their wallets and choosing to invest in

Scotland. The alternative to Scotland flourishing as an

Independence Cup -- as an independent country is for all to

see no Westminster's record of management. The problems we face

are a result of the failed management of the last government

and the current coalition. Between Labour and the Tories, the double-

dip recession has made in London stamped all over it. What we want

in Scotland is the opportunity to create our recovery, made in

Scotland, with the powers of an independent country to bring it

about. There is a clear choice in 2014. The alternative to Scotland

flourishing as an independent country, in charge of our own

resources and decision-making, is to see the achievements of the

Scottish Parliament rolled back. We know what Tory rule looks like, cut,

cut and more cuts. Now Labour have put their cards on the table.

Johann Lamont has lined up with George Osborne and David Cameron

and she has gone further. Everything is on the table, is what

the chairman of the cuts Commission has said, that is the brief they

have been given. Three personal care, education based on the

ability to learn and not to pay, the NHS free at the point of need,

under threat. The extra 1,000 police on Scotland's streets even,

even the Tories do not go that far! The Labour Party is now sitting to

the right of the Tory party in Scotland. By Ian Taylor was

listening to that, it is quite a concerted attack on the speech a

few weekends -- a few weeks ago from Johann Lamont -- Brian Taylor.

They are trying to conflate the Conservatives and the Labour Party

together, suggesting the anti- independence position is led by the

Conservatives and supported by Labour, contrasting it the SNP and

the Tories. I have a party activist and financial journalist with me,

at George Kerevan. What about conflating the Conservatives and

Labour, is that realistic? They have Derek -- they have different

visions of the economy. It is a very strange marriage because the

Labour Party and the Conservative Party have different agendas.

Labour are calling for growth and the Tories for austerity, so how

they can say they can be better together... Up Alex Salmond

suggesting that the social welfare gains are under threat and can only

be entrenched by independence, is that true? War was interesting

about the speech was his was that it is the first time the campaign

has been given intellectual coherence -- what was interesting.

The majority for change was an interesting phrase. We know there

was a majority in the last referendum. I think he wants to put

back coalition back together again and he is saying, you voted for

devolution in 1997 and for social change and fairness, you have got

changes, at that is now under threat. So if you want to keep the

gains of devolution, you have to vote for independence. But why do

you have to vote for independence to retain those? If you are a

devolved government, that could be done with devolution. Three

personal care and freak university education is being kept. John

Swinney has done wonders in making savings so he can move that forward.

But we are now entering a major phase of austerity. This has

happened since 2010, there have been tax rises. Over the next five

years, we will see major, major cuts in public spending and that

will come through to Holyrood. What everybody here is saying is that

the way the austerity agenda has worked in places like cat alone

higher -- in Catalonia, at last year, at the majority were not in

favour of independence, but this year, you have a majority for

independence in Catalonia. I think Alex Salmond is hoping the same

will happen here. Scottish unemployment is now rising in the

last set of figures. Opponents would say that Alex Salmond took

the credit when Scottish unemployment was low, does he had

to take the blame now it is higher? We have done well in Scotland in

terms of keeping unemployment from where it should have been by a

shifting money into the capital expenditure, which has kept

unemployment low ebb and it would have been. In England, at there is

a shift into part-time employment. -- there is. A lot of people

shifting into part-time employment. That is why those figures indicate

a swing. Over the next 18 months, you will see the boost into the

construction industry that will transform the Scottish Labour

market. And only a year ago, Alex Salmond set, Scotland is the only

place in these islands where unemployment is falling -- said. He

was taking the credit for low unemployment. We can spend a lot of

time on the figures. But the proportion of people in the labour

market in work is high here. More people are in the labour market as

they are in the UK. You are comparing unemployment against a

different scale of people in jobs. The economic will obviously be

crucial, is it enough to say that the gap that Scotland has is less

severe than in England, the deficit, and it can be addressed by growth?

It will come down to not looking back... But this is the real issue,

it is a growth agenda. The real argument for independence is higher

growth. It is a growth agenda under independence against an austerity

agenda under the union. What lay back and the Tories lining up for

austerity, -- with Labour and the Tories lining up for austerity, it

is a no-brainer! I am off to polish my anorak, back to the studios.

Opponents of plans to introduce same-sex plans have asked ministers

to think again. Some critics, including prominent SNP members,

have questioned the legality -- have questioned the legality of the

proposals and have said they could threaten independence. The concerns

were raised at a meeting on Thursday.

This Scottish government may have decided to go ahead with a bill to

introduce gay marriage, but opponents are clearly not giving up

and they are concerned about what they see as the erosion of marriage.

This fringe meeting took place. Once a thing of the government has

forgotten is that they can analyse it and prove certain things -- one

think. And so the public are in favour art of same-sex marriage.

But the electorate found that they voted in good faith and it was

ignored. And it is the fact it was ignored at made the consultation

process a fraud, -- that made the consultation process a fraud, and

that angers many people! It has not been a fair fight, has it? And if

we are not satisfied with that, they are now using a blackmailing

tactics. You are a bigot, a home of road, you are looking at the

liberal trends in society. To a mason questioned whether gay

marriage can ever work -- John maids -- John Mason. I question

whether Westminster is able or willing to amend that Equality Act

to provide that protection. There is legal opinion as well at

Westminster cannot provide that protection and legislation from

Westminster would still leave churches and others subject to

legal challenge. So Scotland's mainstream churches opposed the

measures -- Scotland's. This man says gay marriage is just wrong.

are all for equality and fairness and freedom, but those of balancing

principles. It becomes a tyranny if you make one principle crushed

others. To you hundred people attended the meeting in Perth and

many spoke out against marriage -- gay marriage, but not all of them -

- 200 people. I do not like to see us opposing Ness on the grounds

people are against it, it should be on the grounds that it is simply

wrong, even if everybody says it. Right remains right even if nobody

says it. When all the political parties are driving through same-

sex marriage, despite the overwhelming number of people in

the community saying they are opposed to it, you disenfranchise

them from voting anyone. By grew up in fear, the fear -- I grew up in

fear because I am a gay man. For a fee of my job, that I would be

sacked, and I would have been. -- a fear of my job. And now what we are

looking for in a society that has progressed and where we have it

freedom that others want, we want to progress that on the simple

basis that an individual has a right to love a person and to

settle with them in a contract recognised by the state.

Scottish ministers insist no church would be forced to conduct same-sex

marriages if they do not want to -- the Scottish ministers. The SNP

issued a warning for both sides to keep their language Wisbech fork.

Back to the conference in Perth now, where some guests are worth our

reporter, at Brian Taylor. We have the chair of the fringe meeting

here. John Mason, what is your objection to same-sex marriage

fundamentally? I am not objecting to it but my main concern is that

the churches and those who do object should not be forced to take

part, and that is a genuine fear among the church and other

religious communities that they could be forced to. Have assurances

not been given that will not be the case, by the First Minister and not

least? They have said they need help from Westminster to deliver at

protection but legal advice says Westminster cannot provide that

protection and when we go to the European Court of Human Rights,

denominations could be challenged in court. What about that?

religious body will be it required to provide same-sex marriages but

those that want to like the Quakers, the quality areas, at they will be

able to. But this is an historic policy for the SNP, they are

finally providing full equality for same-sex couples in Scotland.

say there will not be challenges, but there is perhaps one couples

seeking a test case trying to get a marriage in their church, to

challenge the judge. There were or is there to change that, the

European Convention of Human Rights is very clear. And let's remember,

at no country around the world forces churches to conduct same-sex

marriages. But almost every country surrounding Scotland already has a

same-sex marriage. Some say that a civil partnerships already come up

why do you need the sanction of I want equality and what -- and

that can't be done in many ways. I am happy to accept that the words

are important but I do not accept there is no legal riskiness. The

churches at the moment are protected about religious things

but this is about doing a public service because marriage is partly

in the public domain and that is where it becomes risky for the

churches because if they are carrying out a public service, they

could be at risk. One man said he thought this policy was neglecting

public opinion and was therefore akin to fascism, driving through a

change against the will of the people, would you adopt that tone?

Are I don't like that tone. We can have this debate and hopefully we

can have this debate in a reasonable way, using reasonable

language. A lot of people are doing up. The reality is there are a

minority very keen on this but a bigger minority very much against

him but the majority of the public don't have strong feelings. Would

you prefer the Scottish government drop this policy? I think they may

not be able to take it forward because if Westminster cannot

deliver then they may not be able to do with. In mind of the possible

to go ahead? I don't think that is true. Many of -- et many MSPs have

said they will vote for this and the government have said they will

come forward this year. We know the majority of SNP members will have

come up to us this weekend and the majority of the public support the

move. I hope it will happen. I know it is not your concern that it has

to be the concern of the SNP, all of their minds on the referendum

but do you think this policy helps or hinders that case? Let us

remember that people across all of the political parties, all the

party leaders, with a pro- independence or pro union support

equality for same-sex couples. I do not think it will change any votes.

Two thirds of the public support same-sex marriage but if the

government do not do it that we have an effect. It depends what

question you ask the public. You can get a majority of the public

who are against it so it depends how you would it. I think the

majority of the public do not have strong views about it. The

parliament is more secular than the public as a whole. Thank you very

much. Back to the studio. Thank you very much.

Professor John Curtice is still with me here in the studio. Do you

think this could harm the Independent's argument? Do you

think people out there might be put off by the Scottish government's

proposals? It is going to be very difficult to construct the argument

because it will not be the case that anyone can point to the UK

Government and say that the UK Government is against same-sex

marriage so if we stay in the Union we will not have it because the

truth is there are already parallel moves being made by the UK

Government to change the law in England and Wales to introduce

same-sex marriage south of the border as well. There is a

difference in that at the moment the UK Government for England and

Wales is only proposing to introduce same-sex civil marriage

which would not allow the Quakers or other religions to hold a

marriages. What their government has currently done allows them to

hold civil partnership ceremonies which were previously outlawed. The

particular issue of whether or not to the churches are vulnerable to

the fact that the Scottish government is proposing to allow

religious organisations to conduct marriages, not for it just to be a

civil ceremony, that particular aspect is different in Scotland and

Wales but broadly speaking if Scotland remains in the union,

same-sex marriage of some kind or other is going to be introduced

anyway. Let us expand the issue of independence a bit further. You

wanted to pick up on a point that we were hearing from George Kerevan.

He was making the point when Brian was asking about independence and

the universal benefits that we receive, do we need to be

independent to carry on receiving them? We have heard a lot to date

from Alex Salmond and John Swinney yesterday in the clips. We have

heard them telling us about the austerity that Scotland is

currently suffering as a result of the UK's government stance about

getting the deficit down and also pointing out, as we have heard many

times, that's gone on's share of the public service death -- public

sector deficit is less although our finances are still in substantial

deficit. What they are trying to say to us is that if we become

independent Scotland can achieve the growth that might enable us to

escape from the austerity that we are currently suffering from London.

The truth is that if the SNP are going to pursue that argument they

have to put more flesh on the bones. In a sense we need to hear from

them some sense of what the budget of an independent Scottish

government would look like now if Scotland were to be independent. In

his speech today Alex Salmond said that we are not so constrained as

the UK, our share of the deficit is less so we could invest more, we

could spend more on services such as free public services, all we

could borrow less. Well, you certainly can't do all three of

those. At the moment the SNP are going to have to, much more clearly

with if there is this advantage, how will it be used and to be able

to persuade people that whatever difference starts they come up with

Woods still defended the services effectively and achieve the growth

that they think Scotland needs. Thank you very much. Alex Salmond

received his normal standing ovation at the end of his speech so

let us go back to the hall and he have it went down some of the

delegates. I am joined by the National convenor of SNP youth and

a former SNP MSP. Good afternoon. Thank you very much for joining me.

Firstly it was interesting to here Alex Salmond holding up the yes

poster. This is a very crucial moment for you in the party's

history but it looks like you have a mountain to climb. Not at all. We

have two years to have a fantastic campaign which I am incredibly

excited about. It is an opportunity to go out and sell out essential

message that it is fundamentally better to have discussions about

Scotland in Scotland and no one cares more about Scotland and the

people living and working and they should make the decisions about the

country. Surely looking at the opinion polls, some this week have

suggested that only 30% of people support independence. David is very

optimistic, do you share his optimism? You must be pretty

optimistic to get up to the 50% that you must get up to? What the

headlines don't actually show you is that 64% of the people actually

believe that the Scottish government is doing a better job

than Westminster and they are in the right place to make decisions.

You look at other opinion polls and you look at the Social attitudes

survey, people are interested and keen to vote on independence if

they feel that Scotland will be better off. As part of the Yes

Scotland campaign that I am now in, I am very pleased we have two years

to present our information and show that. Scotland has a choice coming

up in 2014 and it can either continue on a journey as we are now,

with one of the most unequal societies in the developed world

all we can look to do start -- we can look to start a new journey to

Independence. When you ask people about how they want Scotland to be

in 20 years' time, they don't imagine an unequalled -- an unequal

society. They want to see people improved and that is true

independence. David, and in crucial part of the argument is about the

economy. Alex Salmond was pointing out the figures and their and it

turns out the shortfall is made up in borrowing, how would an SNP

government after independence construct the Scottish budget when,

in fact, we need to borrow so much, and when Alex Salmond kept saying

that he wants to pay for the social solidarity? I think firstly the air

tuts that the Labour Party have made have been an absolute car

crash. Eight you go round the streets in Glasgow and tell

pensioners that their boss passes will be taken away, let them try.

There is not a huge and an appetite for that to come back. When it

comes to the economy it is very important that we actually have the

import -- opportunity to make decisions about all about finances

and in a way to do that is with independence. We are at a crucial

juncture in our nation's history at the moment and we can either move

forward with independence or it will be more of the same and that

is why I am campaigning for a yes vote and I am confident we will win.

A crucial juncture there but delegates are complaining they are

not getting enough information from the media about independence but it

is difficult asked to get any information because we have not

seen the white paper yet. They are still a lot of questions to be

answered, such as that this arrangement, will we have a seat on

the Bank of England's Monetary Policy Committee? Are well, we will

have a lot of information coming up over the next year's but I will

tell you what is out that the moment. The figures you quoted on

borrowing to David are incorrect. Yes, there would be a deficitLahm

but there is a larger deficit the Scotland Under the UK. It is only

half of the story and if we look at how Scotland would perform, we

would still be financially better off. We have just got rid of one

million leaflets as part of the Yes campaign to do SNP activists and

there are more coming to the Green Party and other people. That is one

million pieces of literature hitting the streets in the next few

months and the information is coming up. On our website people

can actually give their questions indirectly and we will answer them

directly. The information is out there and we are open and

transparent and ready. A answer me this, your critics say you

hypocritical with the change in stance on NATO. Well, that is our

position of for the SNP when it comes to the referendum vote in

2014, this is a vote about independent. What happens after

that on the policy is for the government in 2016. That is why Yes

Scotland is a non-party political campaign. David, you were

applauding very firmly when people were talking about a NATO in the

hall, against joining. Are you disappointed in the party's stance?

You have got to acknowledge that yesterday was a fantastic debate

and it showed the Health and the internal democracy of the party.

The fact that we are getting excited about defence policy means

defence policy is coming to Scotland because independence is

inevitable so it is could be added the discussion. Thank you very much.

Blair Jenkins, the man who was running at the Yes Scotland

campaign for independence has been giving this year's lecture. It

commemorates Arthur Donaldson who led the SNP for most of the 1960s.

He used his speech to set out the way ahead for Yes Scotland in the

arm up for the Rafah -- referendum. There is one important thing that I

want to say and that is to say as the chief executive of Yes Scotland,

on behalf of everybody in Scotland to support an independent Scotland,

I want to say thank you to the Scottish National Party for

delivering the referendum. APPLAUSE.

As you are aware, there is a large and growing number of people now

who are pro-independence and want to be part of this campaign but we

do understand that we owe you that debt of gratitude. I have no

history of involvement in any political party, I have never been

part of a political campaign of any or of any political activity of

that kind but I did note that this was a campaigner had to be part of.

In my career to date the things I have campaigned for the, the things

I am known for campaigning for are better journalism and better

broadcasting. Now our I am delighted to be campaigning for her

better Scotland. APPLAUSE.

I knew by the start of this year that I could not sit on the same -

but I could not sit on the fence or bite my tongue for the next two

years and not be part of this. This is a time to stand up and be

counted. APPLAUSE. It is a very important

thing to say about Yes Scotland, that we are not, ourselves, our

policy-making group. Yes Scotland is about the pure principle of

supporting independence, we are not about making policies ourselves.

All we ask of people, the only admission ticket, the only price of

entry, you support that core principle that the best people to

predict British -- to make the decisions about the future of

Scotland are the people of Scotland and the cells. -- themselves.

This is a cause I believe that transcends party politics and in

many ways it represents a new form of politics. The no narrative seems

to be that the rest of the world, every other country, every other

institution will react in an irrational and hostile way to a

newly independent scholar. Why on earth should we believe that would

be the case? There is nothing to underpin that. If we all went

around in our private lives in that way, assuming the world was against

us, none of us would ever leave home in the morning. On the

evidence so far, the No campaign is exactly that, no vision, no

ambition, the only thing holding them together is the desire to hold

We are the first and only a generation of Scots to have this

opportunity and that is a remarkable thing. -- and a

regeneration. We will get that opportunity to vote for self-

determination and to vote to have an independent future. The yes

Scotland campaign will do three things for the people of Scotland.

We will give them the information they need, the debate they deserve,

and the outcome and the desire. -- Conference, if ever there was a

cause, this is all calls. If ever there was a campaign, this is our

campaign. And if ever there was a year, 2014 will be our year. 2014

in Scotland will be the Year of yes. Bent you very much! -- thank you.

Back to the conference hall, where Brian is standing by. Two, it --

two colleagues. David Torrance and the editor of the Sunday Post. We

heard from Blair Jenkins he was stressing the importance of the

referendum. It is over everything in this referendum. On Monday

before conference, the Prime Minister reached an agreement with

Alex Salmond. On the face of it, it does not look good, polls have

suggested support for independence is on a downward slide, but support

will always fluctuate. Strategy iss here our confidence -- are

confident that over the next two years, as the government becomes

more unpopular, but they are confident the polling will narrow -

- strategists. Was it deliberate that Alex Salmond began his very

thoughtful speech with a bit of rabble-rousing Karaka chalk of the

Conservative government? He always does. -- caricatural of the

Conservative government. He always does. He started talking about

Andrew Mitchell's resignation and the issue about George Osborne on

the trace -- on the trains, people love Tory bashing. He wants to

create it continuum from devolution to independence and conflating the

Tories and Labour as being against that process. That was too good for

a gift for him to ignore, but Conservative problems they have now.

Last year, I thought it would be difficult to top the euphoria after

they won that landslide election. But it is higher this time.

Monday changed everything? He had got that agreement and they will

have their vote on independence, some think the majority of members

here never thought would come. polls suggest a leaf or 2% support

-- only 30% support. It will narrow and as the Conservatives get deeper

into trouble, I do not see any way out of it for them. He was having a

go at the Conservatives because his strategy is, if you vote no, this

is what you get. He is depicting the Tories as the leader -- as the

leaders of the union campaign. David Cameron is a Tory, if you

vote no, this is what you get. this the truth of it? Labour are

the largest party involved in that organisation. It is not legitimate.

Yes campaign is a coalition of different forces, including the

Green Party. No campaign his three main parties. Alex Salmond has been

gearing up to this narrative for a while, to depict the other parties

as being anti-Scottish and anti- independence. The speech by Johann

Lamont which arguably shifted ideologically was another gift to

salmon -- to Alex Salmond. He is saying it is only by independents

that you can protect the gains of devolution. Only by a voting yes

can you protect universal benefits and the gains of devolution will be

the vote for independence, and by voting no, you get nothing.

fact the agreement was between David Cameron and Alex Salmond, it

appears Alex Salmond is leading PDS campaigned. Alistair Darling is

technically reading yet. -- is leading the yes campaign. For Alex

Salmond, etc. It is the Edinburgh Agreement. He was saying it is the

most important date in Scotland's history and David Cameron is

leaving very quietly and saying very little -- important date.

David Cameron, if he hung around, he would have been accused of

interfering and glory seeking a. The Prime Minister did the right

thing by going as soon as possible. His role in the Independent's

campaign will have to be managed carefully by Downing Street.

Another issue was that NATO debate. A remarkably tight outcome how

important -- and how important was it that leadership got their way,

how important was that? In it was important to end this issue

publicly -- it was important to get this issue out publicly and they

were saying, we are the only truly Democratic Party, we have

democratic policy decisions, unlike the other parties. It was a very

useful experience but it was much tighter than they expected an event

Alex Salmond looked worried from that. The so was great fun because

we go to other party conferences and have never seen a debate like

that -- this was great fun. A great debate on both sides. You have seen

a few debates but this is your last party conference! How will we cope?

Without jogging top playing? Are you looking forward to the change?

I am looking forward to it but I may still come to the odd party

conference. From this slightly less noisy conference hall, it is back

to the studio. Some final fought here? We are hearing it from David

Torrance, he was speaking to some insiders, claiming they have

carried out private polling showing the gap is narrowing, a

possibility? Maybe, but the Poles have been moving in the wrong

direction. The fact that they have been moving in the wrong direction

during officio does raise doubts about a presumption behind the

speech -- during this deal. Trying to feed in on the criticism of the

Conservative-led coalition that this will increase support for

independence, the truth is, support for the Conservatives in the UK has

dropped and confidence in the ability of the UK government to

handle the economy has fallen, but this has been happening and it has

become a criticism with resonance, but support for instance has been

falling. And the perception of the public, it is a relatively

incompetently led government, but it does not seem to be a position