05/11/2013 Stormont Today

Hello and welcome to Stormont Today. Coming up in the programme: Sinn

Fein and its president come under attack once again, this time from

the Health Minister. Clearly, the party opposite me, the party that

brought this forward, are more interested in covering up for their

paedophile protecting president than they are in serving the needs of the

community. But Edwin Poots was also under

pressure as MLAs passed a motion criticising his ban on some gay men

giving blood. And you can dress it up and you can

dance around it, at the end of the day this is discrimination against

our communities. And to look over today's stormy

session, I'm joined by the journalist Steven McCaffery.

It was a bit like Groundhog Day in the chamber this morning. Like

yesterday, the alleged past of the Sinn Fein President, Gerry Adams,

was under scrutiny during a statement from the Health Minister

on the Inquiry into Child Sexual Exploitation. The Health Minister

and indeed the Justice Minister made it clear that any form of child

abuse should be reported to the appropriate authorities immediately.

In that respect, how concerned is the minister that yesterday the

Deputy First Minister compromised that message by defending Gerry

Adams in that who clearly failed to report the abuse of his niece to the

appropriate authorities and in educating not just politicians, what

steps can be taken to educate the parents and the public about the

risks associated with child sexual exploitation?

Well, Mr Speaker, I am somewhat struck yesterday by the views

expressed by the recently retired chief public prosecutor in GB who

indicated that those who failed to report child abuse should be

prosecuted for such activity if the law should allow that. I think we

should all reflect on that and I think that it is wrong for people

not to report child abuse. I think it is one of the most obscene things

that anybody can do and I think those people who have failed to do

it have to live with their conscience. I also think the PSNI

and the Public Prosecution Service need to ensure that nobody is above

the law otherwise the law is diminished in the eyes of the

people. Could I ask the minister whether he thinks the term of

reference which says, "Make recommendations on the future

actions required to prevent and tackle child sexual exploitation."

Whether he thinks that term of reference is adequate to permit a

recommendation that as Mr Starmer suggested, failure to report child

sex abuse should be made a criminal offence. Is that term of reference

adequate and if it is not, will the minister look further at that

particular term of reference? Well, in terms of withholding information

or wrongdoing, I believe and the member will know this because he

practised for many years, I believe that people were prosecuted under

that legislation so I don't accept perhaps what some in the PSNI seem

to think that withholding information and child abuse is

something that's untested because in actual fact withholding information

on criminal activity has been tested and that people have been found

guilty of doing that. So I think it is essential that the police and the

prosecution service don't give any sucker to people who withhold

information. The minister returned to his attack on Gerry Adams during

his response to a Sinn Fein motion debating a ban on sexually active

gay men donating blood. Isn't it remarkable when the public

are talking about issues other than gay blood such as the disappeared,

such as the court case involving the cover-up of sex abuse and involving

the leader of the party that brought this motion forward, we are

discussing what? An issue about MSM blood, about blood where we have

53,000 units used per year and where we have imported 73 units over this

past three years. Is this the big issue of today that this House

should be talking about? I don't think so. The party that brought

this forward are more interested in covering up for their paedophile

protecting president than they are in serving the needs of the

community. Mr Speaker... THE SPEAKER: Order. Order. I ask

that the minister withdraw that comment, please.

THE SPEAKER: Order. Order. I would remind all members and especially

the minister to be careful of his language in the House. Certainly,

there is a standard of debate that everybody expects in this House,

even from ministers. I accept the ruling of the Speaker and there is a

standard in life that people expect and when people are aware of

paedophile activities taking a place they should report tr and the leader

of Sinn Fein, the president was aware and he believed it and he

didn't report it. So don't come with me seeking withdrawals, you will not

be getting any withdrawal from me on this issue.

A robust response to Caitriona Ruane from the Health Minister, Edwin

Poots. The journalist, Steven McCaffery, is with me now. Two

really big issues dominating the agenda up here today. It divided

along dwo lines didn't it, it was Sinn Fein versus the DUP? The

exchange that we just saw in the last clip showed that Edwin Poots

was genuinely angry and I thought he appeared upset during part of his

delivery on the debate around blood. Attack was the best form of defence.

Later in the exchanges when he somewhat retreated into criticisms

of the courts and of the way in which politics and modern sout

generally -- Societe Generally treats people with Christian views.

Did you get a sense just watching proceedings as you did today, that

Edwin Poots was in a sense trying to direct the spotlight away from his

particular problems? Yes, I think the party had decided they weren't

going to vote on the issue of blood donation and they anticipated a

fierce attack from the parties and they were very much on the defensive

and while part of the debate centred on the science of this, when it

drifted into matters of religion and criticism of the courts, it took the

debate into territory that made it more difficult for the minister.

That did seem to be the tactic, but it seemed to come off the rails

somewhat as time went on. Sinn Fein had that opportunity for

some revenge when the motion calling on the minister to lift his ban on

some gay men donating blood was debated? Yes. I thought the

contribution that struck hardest from that side of the House was John

McAllister. When he asked people when they talk about issues of gay

rights, this can have a negative impact on young, gay men who feel

difficult about their own identity. His contribution was very powerful

as well. Do you remember an occasion where

there was as much high emotion as we saw today in the chamber? No. I

think it is not noticeable, not in recent times except when the parties

were debating issues around the past and the legacy of the troubles. I

think it clashes with what is happening outside Stormont where the

two large parties are trying, it seems, to build as positive as

possible an atmosphere around the Haass talks. It was very pointed,

yes. We will talk to you later. For now,

Stephen, thank you very much. The Health Minister was quick to

attack Gerry Adams today, but he was also on the receiving end of

criticism himself, a motion urging Edwin Poots to lift a ban on gay men

who have been sexually inactive for a year. A decision in the High

Court, not only found that the minister had acted irrationally, but

also found that he had acted without lawful authority. And was therefore

in breach of the Ministerial Code. In respect of a sensitive and very

highly important issue. Those actions Mr Speaker, have caused much

controversy and continue to cause much concern and have attracted a

great deal of public concern and legitimate public interest. The

assembly, Mr Speaker, in my view must now hold the minister to

account. We have to reflect the fact that Northern Ireland cannot survive

as a standard alone unit for the provision of blood. There are so

many different blood types. There are also many different blood

products which could cause difficulties and shortages

particularly if there was an emergency as happened from time to

time when blood supplies do have to be received in Northern Ireland from

other parts of the United Kingdom and as reflected in the court

judgement, it has been deemed to be irrational to have different

standards applying to this part of the United Kingdom than other parts

of the United Kingdom. The minister's case becomes preposterous

when we take Northern Ireland's position in the UK into account in

this unilateral ban in Northern Ireland when we receive blood from

the rest of GB has no rational basis and indeed, just as Tracey described

the minister's position as irrational. The decision in the UK

has been taken based on the best sound available scientific evidence,

but I would contend the minister's decision has been based on neither

evidence nor reason. Right-wing religious fervour takes precedence

over the needs of our community and it strikes me there is a crusade

around some of this stuff. It doesn't really matter if you are a

straight person, how promiscuous you want to be, you can sleep with 100

people, but it is all right if your blood, it is all right for us to

take your blood, but if you are a gay person and you are in a loving

relationship for 20 years with one other partner, then we don't want

your blood. It is quite clear to me that the minister was right to

contest this case. He didn't bring this case. Mr Agnew talks about

wasting funds. The minister didn't bring this case. This case was

brought as a challenge which the minister quite properly and

defended, it would be a dereliction of his duty not to defend it and

would be entitled to challenge it further. I was asked the question by

a BBC journalist when I was in the department for environment, was I

fit to be a minister and be a Christian? What a shameful

despicable question particularly when there is people in this

Government who have been engaged in terrorism, who have been convicted

of terrorist activities and it is all right for them to be in

Government, but if you embrace Christian values, you shouldn't be

there was the substance of the question and there is a continual

battering of Christian principles and I would have to say shame on the

courts for going down the route of constantly attacking it Christian

principles, Christian ethics, Christian morals, what this society

was based on and give us a good foundation. This isn't just about a

ban on blood donations from gay men. What this this is about, the

pattern, the pattern of discrimination. And discrim nattry

actions and you can dress it up and you can dance around it at the end

of the day, this is discrimination against our LGB and T communities

and that's what it is. Whether we are talking about equal marriage,

whether we are talking about the ban on blood donations, or whether we

are talking about adoption. Caitriona Ruane. I'm joined now by

the chair of the Health Committee, Maeve McLaughlin. Are you demanding

the resignation of the Health Minister, Edwin Poots? It has been a

good day in terms of the unification of a number of parties across the

assembly. Clearly, against discrimination against one section

of our community namely the gay community. So in that sense I think

it has been a powerful statement. What the motion called for was

clearly the minister to call for the ban to be lifted and if he can't do

so then he should step aside. Well, he clearly isn't going to

change his policy on this and it doesn't sound like he is going to

step aside which is why I'm asking you, are you calling for him to go?

Is this just a meaningless motion debated today? No, it is not

meaningless at all. I think that what we found over the last numb of

months -- number of months has been a process and pattern whereby the

minister ended up through processes like this, which resulted in legal

action which in this case he has been deemed to be both irrational

and in breach of his Ministerial Code. So obviously this was not a

waste of time. It was not ill thought out. It was an important

motion and in my view clearly, the minister has a piece of work to do

in relation to this issue and it is about installing public confidence

around particularly that section of our community. Clearly, it is

obvious for everybody to see that Edwin Poots believes he was neither

irrational nor in breach of the Ministerial Code. You may like him

to go, that maybe the substance of the motion passed today in the

chamber. There is not much you can do about it, is there? I am aware

and wouldn't be naive to say that decisions around ministerial

appointments are decisions for parties, but the party has a

responsibility in relation to ensuring and assuring that the

minister does not breach the Ministerial Code and does not act

irrationally and does not, I suppose, discriminate or bring his

own personal prejudice which is an opinion and wide opinion that is out

there into play. We had plenty of sound and fury, but no substantive

debate about this significant and emotive issue, do you accept that? I

think there was a lot of debate, Mark, around this issue. There was a

lot of science brought to the debate today, but this is an issue about

equality and this is an issue also about, I suppose, the use of public

funding. Increasingly, we see this issue of, you know, we see the

Health Service for example in turmoil in a lot of sectors within

it. We see the issue around residential care and domicillary

care waiting lists and we have a pattern where issues are taken

through high courts which is a waste of public funding.

In the meantime after all that, the Health Minister was critical of our

party leader. He talked about Sinn Fein also more interested in

covering up for your president protecting president to quote him,

rather than serving the needs of the community. Did he have a point?

Well, I think anybody looking at that with a reasonable head on their

shoulders wouldn't have been surprised at the just as Tracey. I

think what he has to do and I suppose on our behalf certainly Sinn

Fein will be looking very closely at the ut transcript in relation to

coming to a decision around the next steps. His behaviour today was not

ministerial and was not professional.

Briefly, Mr Adams continues to feel the heat as well after last night's

programme in which it was alleged that he ordered the diace perns of

Jean -- disappearance of Jean McConville. Well, our party made

this clear and clearly, have made a very vocal public call that anybody

with information, any shred of information should bring that

forward to the relevant authorities. Maeve McLaughlin, thank you.

The consultation may be over, but it hasn't gone away, you know. The

Common Funding Formula, that is, and it was firmly on the agenda during

today's questions to the Education Minister. The fact that -- th

require more resources to tackle the challenges. I have been accused by

some of taking a money off schools to give to other schools. However,

no schools annual budget is confirmed and until it is done so by

my department and therefore, the moneys I plan to use are not from

any particular school's. I have found that throughout this

consultation that speaking to educationalists and speaking to

pupils, speaking to principals and speaking to parents, speaking to

people interested in social justice that they approach me in a rational

manner and they put across their point of view in a rational

considered manner. Some agree with my proposals, some do not. On behalf

of the SDLP, they are going to challenge. Social deprivation is the

biggest indicator of a child's out John Majors. A school with high

levels needs more funding. It needs to relate to information that is

personal to the pupil's family circumstances. That information

needs to be capable of independent validation. It needs to be

up-to-date. It needs to be capable of being updated on an annual basis

and needs to be easily gathered at school level. Free school meal

entitlement is the only reliable method. The view of the independent

review panel was that free school meal entitlement provides an

indication of the concentration of disadvantaged pupils in a given

school in a way that no other indicator does. Additionally,

analysis shows a strong correlation between the entitlement to free

school meals and the deprivation measures. I have received no

suggestions that suggest alternative methods. After all the shouting that

takes place, can the minister confirm if any other political party

in this House have presented him with any other option other than

free school meals? None have yet presented me with an option in

relation to this. THE SPEAKER: Order, pleads. None of

political parties presented me with an alternative to free school meals.

The Education Minister, John O'Dowd. The Health Minister has appointed

Professor Kathleen Marshall to lead the Inquiry into Child Sexual

Exploitation. Edwin Poots revealed his decision to hold an inquiry in

September following the arrests of more than 30 people in a major

investigation into the sexual exploitation of children and young

people. The professor has a long distinguished career as a practising

and academic lawyer, she is a former commissioner for children and young

people in Scotland. She is part of a team which undertook the youth

justice review in Northern Ireland. She chaired a statutory inquiry into

child abuse into children's homes in Edinburgh which resulted in a

published report. The professor will lead an inquiry board which will

include the chief executives and the criminal justice inspectorate. I am

confident that we will secure the involvement of the education and

training inspectorate with the a Igreement of -- agreement of the

minister. I have emphasised the need to ensure the views of children and

young people are considered and given due weight. I met with

Professor Marshal yesterday. As agreed with Professor Marshal the

committee will agree to establish arrangements af measures to tackle

child sexual exploitation. The inquiry will not focus on the

responses to the 22 children who are part of the ongoing police

investigation known as Operation Owl. This will be the focus of a

separate review being untaken. Available learning generated from

this review will be taken into account by the inquiry. The temples

of reference reflected this is a wider issue affecting children in a

variety of circumstances. Not just those in the care system and I

expect the inquiry to conclude before the end of 2014. Where

learning is identified, it is essential it is shared and acted

upon quickly. I want to ensure we prevent further sexual exploitation

of children and young people in Northern Ireland. The Minister for

Employment and Learning also faced questions today and he was asked

about students from Northern Ireland getting into universities in the

Republic. But first Stephen Farry spoke about the difference between

the mimimum wage and the working wage. The minister will be aware of

the topical debate around the minimum wage versus the living wage

as is today. Could the minister confirm how many companies in

Northern Ireland being aided by his department are paying the living

wage? Well, I can't give him a comprehensive answer on that

particular point today. I imagine there maybe difficulties in getting

that information. We do pay the minimum wage in relation to

apprenticeships support and that's a reflection of the situation that

pertains in the wider market. Overall, I think it is important

that we are realistic around all of this. The minimum wage is set at a

UK wide level. It has been increased. There is a case for

making further adjustments upwards in terms of the minimum wage. In

terms of the living wage, if we were to come in and to argue for art fish

ally setting a wage level in excess of where the appropriate level would

be for the national minimum wage, there could be unforeseen

circumstances where we are denying opportunities for employment or

indeed, for creating opportunities for skills or apprenticeship

opportunities. It is something we need to take a balanced approach to.

But it is not something that's a matter for this assembly, it is a

matter to be addressed at a UK level too. Can the minister update us with

discussions he had with the admissions offices with regard to

the portability of A-levels for entry into courses at southern

universities? I am very much aware of those particular issues, but the

member's colleague, the Minister for Education is leading in terms of

those discussions. The particular difficulty that seems to exist is

that the central admissions office is rather autonomous from the Irish

Government. The arguments have been won in terms of Rory Quinn and his

colleagues, but it is getting the system to be more responsive, but

the representations continue from John O'Dowd and I am more than happy

to support him in that regard. Steven McCaffery joins me again. A

busy and bad tempered day at Stormont, but as we saw, there was a

significant appointment made. Professor Kathleen Marshall has a

lot in her in tray? It is a huge issue and a major announcement by

Edwin Poots on what was a busy day for him. I thought one unfortunate

fly in the ointment was that the Education Minister as we saw when he

took questions today, he was unaware of the announcement and said he

learnt of it in the media. It is a pity there wasn't that element of

joined up Government. It is a major issue and there will be a lot of

support for her and her work, but she faces a huge task.

It will be interesting to see how that unfolds in the weeks a months

ahead and it will be interesting to hear from her when she speaks about

that appointment for the first time. One other issue today, we can't not

mention this evening, we had a motion passed calling for the

assembly to fund the rescue of the Exploris Aquarium in Portaferry. Is

that realistic? It seems an innocuous issue. One that might

attract political backing and one that is important to the local

economy there, but you know, it just seems that people are scared off by

the financial impact of keeping the project on. I visited it. I brought

my four-year-old daughter and she enjoyed it, but it sounds like

others might not get that chance. Thank you very much indeed.

That's it for tonight. Do make a point of joining me for The View on

Thursday night at 10.35pm on BBC One. Until then, from everyone in

the team, bye-bye.