09/11/2015 Stormont Today


09/11/2015

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As the talks continued, the prospect of a new agreement

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between the parties has been hanging in the air again today.

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But as we've found in previous days, despite the expectations running

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high, there's precious little by way of detail in the public domain.

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Martin McGuinness tells MLAs that the IRA Army Council has no

:00:40.:00:43.

I don't ever recall on one occasion anybody questioning any decision

:00:44.:00:55.

that was made to the course of those eight years as having been subject

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to a group of people in a smoke-filled room.

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The Justice Minister comes in for some harsh criticism after

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Unsafe, unstable, dangerous. It could not be any more damning. What

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does it take for a minister in this house to take responsibility and

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resign for systematic and catastrophic failure?

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And with me in the studio to share her thoughts

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on today's developments is the Irish News journalist, Allison Morris.

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Is a political deal likely to be done this week at Stormont?

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That's the question we've been asking

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for a while now, and if we take on board the views of the Secretary

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of State and the Taoiseach, things certainly look like they're

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Both are now on the record as saying they're hopeful there'll

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Enda Kenny met David Cameron earlier today in Downing Street

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We discussed the question of Northern Ireland and the issues that

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are there. These discussions have been going on for quite some time.

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They have been discussing various points over the last of weeks and I

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would be hopeful that having had briefings from the Minister for

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foreign affairs that there might -- they might be concluded this week.

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The Taoiseach, Enda Kenny, seems hopeful that a deal can be reached

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before the weekend, but it's not signed, sealed and delivered yet.

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It isn't and we have heard these noises before in previous rounds of

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talks and they have ended in failure. There has not been a lot of

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detail coming out. There has been a lot of talk of people being hopeful

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and talks being constructive. The politicians have gone very quiet and

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we are all suspicious about what's going on behind closed doors. We are

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in the third week now. It will be interesting to see whether they can

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manage it to the end of the week. I think it will be the start of next

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week before we hear anything. The Secretary of State said last

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Thursday interview was in her view possible but she will wouldn't go as

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far as to save the -- probable. She has seen how these things can fall

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down at the last minute. We know what the hurdles are. There are

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several other issues in relation to moving things forward and progress

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and in the past we have been unable to reach an agreement. But because

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things came to such a head over the deaths of Jack Davidson, all parties

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know something has to be done. The STL P leaders said earlier today

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there are still gaps bit -- before the deal can be struck. Is this

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looking more like a deal that will necessarily involve all five

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parties? It is almost certain it will be a deal that will have to get

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the agreement of the two main parties. The other parties are going

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to have to like it or lump it. The past have risen between the DUP on

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Sinn Fein so those problems have to be solved. Do you think it makes a

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big difference in terms of the stickability of the deal if for

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example the Ulster Unionists at left outside. There talking about some

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sort of change to how the assembly is set up. They will be happy enough

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if they could have a change. That is one of the things being discussed.

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At this point in time I think the British and the governments are

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trying to get a deal between Sinn Fein and the DUP. So what we're

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looking at potentially is a deal between those two big parties rather

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than a storm in the steel between the five parties? Exactly and I

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think it will create some animosity with the smaller parties but it

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means we can retain the assembly and we are going into an election next

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year anyway so the public needs some sort of change in the assembly then.

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At the moment they are just trying to save the institutions.

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In the Assembly, business carried on as usual and

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the Office of the First and Deputy First Ministers faced questions.

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Martin McGuinness was on duty with a little help from the Junior

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Minister, Jennifer McCann, and they were asked about subjects as diverse

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as the IRA Army Council's influence, the controversial prospect of a

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victims' pension and cheering on the Northern Ireland football team.

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The first question came from David McNarry.

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I wonder would he have time to confirm that the IRA Army Council

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are also consulting routinely in decision taken by his office. I

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think in the course of my duties as Deputy First Minister over the

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course of the last eight years, working with both Reverend Ian

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Paisley and Peter Robinson in their capacities as First Minister 's and

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working with Sinn Fein ministers and the executives, I don't ever recall

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on one occasion anybody questioning any decision that was made during

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the course of those eight years as having been subject to a group of

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people in a smoke-filled room. I really don't think the question is

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appropriate but in the context of the discussions we are presently

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involved in all of us recognise that is the of work to be done

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collectively by the executive and by every member of this house in

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standing together against those who would try to take us back to the

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past. I think in the course of the last eight years the records of the

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five Sinn Fein ministers in the executive are beyond question. I

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think quite clearly as we move forward hopefully to an agreement in

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the course of the coming days that we can devise a strategy which has

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all of us singing from the same hymn sheet. I make it absolutely clear to

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anybody out there who believes violence represents the way forward

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for all of us, we say no. Whatever the arrangements for his colleagues,

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when it comes to the Deputy First Minister is it simply a matter of

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looking in the mirror when he is taking directions from the IRA Army

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Council? I don't think that's an appropriate question. It obviously

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comes from someone who has been hell-bent since coming into this

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house to try and undermine the processes within this house. Our

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department continues to continue proposals for injured victims in the

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injection with the victims service. Research is ongoing into various

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such as legislative requirements to allow the scheme to in a way which

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benefits all victims and survivors. The Stormont House Agreement has

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agreed further work will be undertaken to seek an acceptable way

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forward on the proposals. As a result of this our department is

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looking at attracting a document to seek opinion on various aspects of

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the pension proposals. The truffle Bies omitted to the Stormont house

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for consideration later this month. We want to ensure victims and

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survivors receive the best services possible. In view of the refusal of

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nationalist members to support a motion congratulating the Northern

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Ireland foot hole team in qualifying for the European Championship 2016,

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what is -- what are you doing to promote good relations within sport?

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I do believe that a single team would be more effective both in

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Europe and in qualifying for the World Cup but that said, I do

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applaud their achievements. I have never been reluctant as has the

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Minister for culture and leisure in congratulating teams from the North

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love and well. I think it is something for all of us to be proud

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of. The Deputy First Minister

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on the recent success of The 'most dangerous' prison

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in the UK. That was how Maghaberry Prison was

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described in last week's report by Her Majesty's Chief Inspector

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of Prisons in England and Wales. Today, the Justice Minister,

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David Ford, responded to He reiterated that he doesn't intend

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to resign and told MLAs that the Prison Service has taken 'swift

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and decisive action' to make Immediately upon receiving the

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feedback from the inspection prison servers management with support from

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me took steps to remove the governor and deputy governor from their posts

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and to replace them with a new senior team. While I do believe it's

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appropriate go further into what ongoing matters, I will say that

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neither the two person I removed was redeployed within the plate --

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prison service. I rise as someone in this assembly will fully supports

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the reform programme which the Minister has quite properly directed

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but I also rise with serious disappointment arising out of this

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report. It is a damning report as the chair has rightly said and I'm

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sure the Minister would agree. Central to this, in my view, is the

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failure in terms of industrial relations within the prison. He

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referred to an external recruitment programme. Does the Minister believe

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the salaries and terms and conditions of young prison of the

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adequate to retain and recruit prison officers to a standard that

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are needed? Mr Swann makes a reasonable point. There have been

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changes made in the terms and conditions of newly appointed

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officers recently and my understanding is at this stage the

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current scheme for appointing up to a hundred prison officers, we have

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already something in excess of 1000 applications so it would suggest

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that the terms and conditions which are being offered mixed them

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acceptable to those who would can see -- consider careers in the

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prison service. Would the Minister accept that the failure to implement

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the recommendations of the review team specific to Maghaberry Prison

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led to this report? And not sure it is reasonable to say the failure to

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implement the recommendations, the recommendations are wide ranging and

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far-reaching. What we saw in the expections report was a failure in

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Maghaberry Prison at the time. Some very significant failings which led

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to a critical report. But that is in no sense undermining the concept of

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the report and its wider five -- far-reaching recommendations. I'm

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delighted the Minister could stay for more than two questions today.

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In terms of this report and the state and today, you have been in

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position now for over six years, in charge of prisons, and you have

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appointed the leadership team. Do you not accept that the leadership

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team which has been a revolving door of Englishmen coming over to run the

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prisons has been totally detached from the prison itself and it is

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wholly disingenuous of you to skip -- a scapegoat to people who were in

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position the less than a year. I have been in position for five

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years, not over six. I don't appoint civil servants, there are procedures

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by where civil servants are appointed. Sue McAllister is

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certainly not an Englishman. The leadership team is not detached, the

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leadership I see being given by the senior team is absolutely attached

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to what is going on in the prison and that is no issue of

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scapegoating. Leaving aside the self-serving

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efforts by the Minister to give this report as soft a landing as

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possible. Under safe, unstable, dangerous. It could not be any more

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damning. What does it take for a minister in this house to take

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responsibility and resign for systematic and catastrophic failure?

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Well, I notice the customary positive and constructive attitude

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to these things! The simple question is, on what basis does a minister

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resigned when action is being taken to redress failings which are

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highlighted in the report by people running a particular service which

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is being taken at the appropriate level with full support from the

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Minister. The Employment Minister was also

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answering questions today. Stephen Farry updated Members

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on how he's resolving European Social Fund difficulties, but first,

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he responded to questions about the closure of Ulster University's

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School of Modern Languages. Ulster University's decision to

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close its School of Modern Languages is the

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outworking of cuts to my department As a result, Ulster University has

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sought to rationalise its course offerings across campuses which has

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resulted in the decision to close The university has advised that

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a number of factors were taken into consideration, including

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student demand, attrition rate, student satisfaction, employment

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statistics Consolidation of the teaching

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provision across all campuses will have budgetary savings

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without impacting on the quality of

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teaching which remains paramount. The level of interest and demand

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from students choosing modern languages subjects

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at all universities is low. Both in terms of the number

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of students who select modern languages as a first choice and

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in terms of those who meet While acknowledging concern amongst

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business and other stakeholders regarding access to online language

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causes, because of language skills of modern language learning

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in in Northern Ireland The Minister has made reference to

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further education colleges taking up the slack left by the

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Ulster University abandoning courses Perhaps he can gice

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more detail about what consultations and discussions have been had with

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the college of further education, what additional resources he is

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making available to them? I have had some discussions with

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the Minister of Education regarding In terms of further education

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itself, they are very clear in terms of their own admission

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about supporting the local economy. As the member will appreciate,

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we are finalising a new further education deal

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which will consolidate much My department is continuing to

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process claims from departments originally funded

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by the European Union. The majority

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of organisations have received full My department has brought

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on further staff to assist this process and ensure it is completed

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as soon as possible. I'm pleased to report that 66

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projects under the 2014-2020 Many have been up and running

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since April while some of the other EU-funded programmes

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both here and in other parts of the UK have yet to initiate

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their application processes. In order to ease cash flow issues

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for the new projects, my department is implementing an interim measure

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whereby 50% of the EFS and DEL contribution in unpaid

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claims is paid out and half later. Can I ask the Minister what

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meetings he intends to have with groups that are still impacted

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by the loss of NSF funding? At this stage, I am open to

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groups who want to get in touch with me and to ask for meetings

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and we will facilitate those. My officials will interact with

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groups on an ongoing basis as well. The last time the second stage

:18:37.:18:39.

of the Housing Bill came before the House it wasn't moved because

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there was no minister in post. Today, with business back to normal,

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the Social Development Minister, Mervyn Storey,

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set out the bill's main aims. In recognition of the limited time

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available to pass the legislation within

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the current mandate, I have decided not to proceed with the proposals

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relating to short tenancies, eligibility for homeless assistance

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and injunctions This is so that a more concise

:19:05.:19:07.

bill could be drafted and achieve The bill is a short

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but potentially very effective The provisions

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of the bill are necessary to support the strategies and initiatives

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for dealing with empty homes, anti-social behaviour and disrepair

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in the private housing sector. The committee did note that it only

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relates to social landlords and there is concern that absentee

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landlords are being missed. That tenants who move

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from social housing for anti-social behaviour could move to a private

:20:03.:20:04.

sector home and the landlord will not have been made aware of their

:20:05.:20:07.

anti-social behaviour history. The definition of anti-social

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behaviour, there is a note about widening it to people not

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maintaining the property and I would urge caution around that because

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there could be a number of reasons. a person with disability or mental

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ill-health. So I want to be very clear

:20:18.:20:20.

when that might be used. Are we going to protect the

:20:21.:20:25.

Housing Executive and social housing associations

:20:26.:20:28.

against potentially disruptive And if we do that and do not have

:20:29.:20:33.

some mechanism for including private sector landlords, we risk actually

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pushing those involved in that anti-social activity

:20:40.:20:44.

into the private rented sector. While the identification and

:20:45.:20:49.

hopefully reincorporation of empty homes into either the social or

:20:50.:20:54.

private sector is important, it is I hope the Minister will

:20:55.:20:59.

readily recognise that. It is a small step to deal with both

:21:00.:21:06.

properties that are a nuisance in the area but also provide useful

:21:07.:21:10.

means of providing housing. I welcome the opportunity to take

:21:11.:21:18.

part in this second stage debate, But the Minister was flip-flopping

:21:19.:21:21.

in and out of government. He told us that business could not

:21:22.:21:30.

be as usual because the IRA had murdered and once the independent

:21:31.:21:34.

panel confirmed that the IRA had murdered and they had guns and an

:21:35.:21:38.

army council, suddenly it was time to sweep murder under the carpet and

:21:39.:21:42.

it is time for business as usual. That brings us back here today,

:21:43.:21:47.

nothing to do with principle or conviction in politics,

:21:48.:21:51.

but everything to do with And that bill passed

:21:52.:21:54.

its second stage. And the Minister didn't move

:21:55.:22:02.

the second stage of another bill relating to housing - the Houses

:22:03.:22:05.

in Multiple Occupation Bill. The Assembly has debated

:22:06.:22:09.

a proposed independent investigation into one of the darkest events

:22:10.:22:12.

of the Troubles. 11 people died following a series

:22:13.:22:15.

of shootings by members of the Parachute Regiment

:22:16.:22:17.

in west Belfast in 1971. The families of those killed

:22:18.:22:21.

in Ballymurphy 44 years ago want an investigation, along similar

:22:22.:22:24.

lines to the Hillsborough Inquiry, jointly funded by both the British

:22:25.:22:28.

and Irish governments. 44 years ago, in the summer of 1971,

:22:29.:22:42.

the British army went on a three-day killing spree in the month of

:22:43.:22:47.

August. Throughout the area, the wreaks havoc on the streets. At the

:22:48.:22:52.

end of that three-day period, 11 people lay dead and lives were

:22:53.:22:57.

changed for ever. For over four decades, the families of those who

:22:58.:23:00.

were killed have been campaigning to find the truth of what happened,

:23:01.:23:04.

that was responsible, what decisions were taken that led to the murders

:23:05.:23:10.

of their loved ones. Those efforts have been thwarted with closed doors

:23:11.:23:15.

at every turn. Notwithstanding that, a robust body of evidence has been

:23:16.:23:21.

gathered by the families at which point to the fact that all those

:23:22.:23:25.

people were innocent victims, unlawfully killed, and those actions

:23:26.:23:30.

represent a breach of Article two of the European Convention of human

:23:31.:23:35.

rights. I have listened with interest and I have absolutely no

:23:36.:23:37.

doubt that the victims and the families that are left want to hear

:23:38.:23:44.

the truth of what actually occurred in that unique piece of our history.

:23:45.:23:49.

And I think that is something which I certainly have sympathy with and

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understand. Those were not the only events to take place when no one has

:23:59.:24:03.

ever been brought to account. Where we had major breaches of Article

:24:04.:24:07.

two, the right to life in this province. It is timely that we have

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this debate today, Mr Speaker because not only is the shadow of

:24:17.:24:21.

Ballymurphy over this chamber, it is over the negotiations that are

:24:22.:24:24.

ongoing not far away from here. And the shadow of all of the past is

:24:25.:24:30.

across all of those negotiations that are ongoing as we speak.

:24:31.:24:36.

Victims have had a huge range of experiences. From the 14 who died on

:24:37.:24:46.

bloody Sunday which has seen not one, but two Public enquiries and an

:24:47.:24:50.

expenditure of hundreds of millions of pounds, to the many relatives of

:24:51.:24:55.

over 1000 dead who still wait for something since the HET was wound

:24:56.:25:02.

up. There has been nothing for that huge number of people who, like the

:25:03.:25:10.

Ballymurphy families of truth, truth, justice, and knowledge and,

:25:11.:25:15.

information. I suppose the biggest difficulty with the activity of this

:25:16.:25:21.

motion is that the community that I know best, many within it will say,

:25:22.:25:41.

where is the inquiry into Consett -- La Mon, where is the inquiry into a

:25:42.:25:48.

litany of other ills. It will surprise people that I'm standing

:25:49.:25:52.

here making this plea. I am wearing a poppy and there is a reason for

:25:53.:25:57.

that. I want to be proud of our army and I want to commemorate and

:25:58.:26:00.

acknowledge the sacrifice that the Army has made over the years in

:26:01.:26:06.

theatres of war. This was not a theatre of war. And if the Army has

:26:07.:26:11.

misbehaved, in the circumstances, I think they need to be able to

:26:12.:26:18.

acknowledge it. It happened in the bloody Sunday which never needed to

:26:19.:26:22.

happen. If this have been happily investigated. So I want to continue

:26:23.:26:29.

to regard the Army with pride and I think that they need to cooperate is

:26:30.:26:32.

such an inquiry can be put together. A very personal contribution to the

:26:33.:26:35.

debate from the Alliance Party's Trevor Lunn - and that motion was

:26:36.:26:38.

defeated by 48 votes to 44. Allison, the Ballymurphy families'

:26:39.:26:51.

situation has been covered by your paper for many years. Today's motion

:26:52.:26:55.

was defeated, that is airing momentum behind an inquiry? Varies.

:26:56.:27:02.

There has been a number of new developments down to the families

:27:03.:27:11.

and victims' groups. It is nothing that the government have pushed. The

:27:12.:27:14.

families will continue until they get a closure. We will never see an

:27:15.:27:22.

inquiry like the one for bloody Sunday. But the Hillsborough type

:27:23.:27:26.

investigation, that is something that could help with healing. Not

:27:27.:27:32.

just the Ballymurphy, but other unsolved cases. The motion was

:27:33.:27:36.

brought by two Sinn Fein members and the Alliance Party's Trevor Lunn.

:27:37.:27:44.

How significant is that? His contribution was very significant.

:27:45.:27:48.

You could hear the waiver in his voice. He is right, if people are to

:27:49.:27:52.

support the British Army, they have to be held to account. The bloody

:27:53.:28:01.

Sunday and the other cases are clear indications when the army was wrong.

:28:02.:28:06.

This cannot just be swept under the carpet. Finally, we heard the

:28:07.:28:10.

Justice Minister David Ford getting a grilling following that was --

:28:11.:28:16.

report on Maghaberry Prison. It does not appear that he is considering

:28:17.:28:21.

his position. He is not, and Sue McAllister is not either. That is

:28:22.:28:29.

incredible. If this was in England, Scotland or Wales, this would not

:28:30.:28:34.

happen. Heads would roll. Maghaberry Prison the worst prison in Europe.

:28:35.:28:38.

Will we have a deal at the end of next week? I'm not optimistic for

:28:39.:28:42.

this week, but I think at the end of next week, we will have one. Whether

:28:43.:28:47.

it was Dick or whether it will just be sticking plaster I'm not sure.

:28:48.:28:49.

There is something cooking. I'll be back tomorrow

:28:50.:28:51.

at the same time here on BBC Two.

:28:52.:28:57.

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