10/06/2013 Stormont Today

Coming up on the programme tonight: Incredible incompetence or wilful

corruption? The Social Development Minister reveals the Housing

Executive overpaid contractors by 18 million pounds. The scale of what

has been uncovered has been a scandal. Let's not forget this is

tax payers money. Ahead of the G8 summit this weekend, the First

Minister says the Executive is close to agreeing a financial way forward

with the UK government. We hope an announcement can be made in relation

to the economic pact later this week. And our Political

Correspondent, Martina Purdy, will be here with her analysis of today's

Eighteen million pounds - that's how much the Housing Executive overpaid

four contractors for planned maintenance work. The figure was

revealed by the Minister for Social Development in a statement to the

Assembly today. A review had already found that six firms were overpaid

for response maintenance contracts, but the Minister said that paled in

comparison to today's findings. We'll hear more from that statement

in a moment, but first our correspondent, Martina Purdy, is

with me. This is not the first time the Housing executive has been

making the headlines. No, this is the latest instalment. There's been

a series of problems around contract going back a few years which has led

to controversy and a BBC investigation and a damning report

from the public accounts committee. Basically, in 2011 Housing executive

terminated a �70 million contract with Red Sky amid allegations of

overcharging and substandard work. The Minister Nelson McCausland was

convinced this was not an isolated case and believed the problems in

the executive were widespread and he initiated a review. The findings of

the review are coming out today that there are problems around

maintenance contractors to the tune of �18 million has vindicated the

Minister and it will add impetus to his desire to see change at the

executive. The Minister will be more determined than ever perhaps to

transform the executive. Yes, and the Minister would like to scrap the

Housing executive but when the media speculated that was his intention,

he had to row back because he ran into difficulties with the executive

that it's fairly clear the plan is radical changes, breaking up the

executive, he wants to take the executive, stop it being a landlord

to the 90,000 houses and it would be in charge of waiting lists and

management and other bodies would look after the housing stock.

There's been some robust reaction to this financial scandal. There has

been considerable reaction, some of it is putting it back on the

ministers Department saying the department has questions to answer,

Michael Copeland said it was a catastrophic failure of the

Department to exercise appropriate Judah legend is and we heard from

Mark Durkan who said it is shocking in light of the housing shortages

and what would have been done with the money instead. Thank you for

now, Martina. We'll hear more from you later.

Let's hear more now from that statement by the Minister, Nelson

McCausland. The findings are extremely disappointing. Given the

scrutiny the organisation is already under for its management of response

maintenance contracts and I totally concur with this. The figure is

estimated to be some �18 million. Let me say that again, in case you

misheard. �18 million in overpayments to four contractors. I

have been advised by the Housing executive that the contractors are

PK Murphy, barn, mascot and Dixons. I am sure you are astounded at the

amount. And wonder at the level of incompetence within the Housing

executive that led to this state of affairs. The scale of what has been

uncovered has been a scandal. Let's not forget this is the taxpayers

money. It could have been used to build around 200 much needed social

homes. In type -- in tackling these issues I appoint a new chairman,

Donald Hoodless he was taken on a difficult job but is determined to

put in place clear governance and assurance -- systems to tackle the

issues and make the organisational changes that are required to bring

this organisation into line as to ensure appropriate services are

delivered to tenants, along with value for public money. What has

happened in the past must not happen in the future. As yet, it is not

clear if this is a result of incredible incompetence, or wilful

corruption. Time will tell. Would he agree there is a legacy here of

access pricing in contracts, a historic legacy of culinary trees

and this has been used as a factor -- paramilitaries. It is not a new

issue. Housing executive board shaken by contracts report, reports

recommended this system should be changed, a headline in the Belfast

Telegraph in 1978! So, more than 30 years ago there were issues about

housing contracts, it is not new. What we have identified clearly if

the scale and the scope of this, it's been identified �18 million and

bear this in mind, when you are dealing with the �18 million, that

is not spread evenly. In the case, I understand one of the contractors,

highest amount was eight or �9 million overpaid. That is the scale

of it. Can I ask, in view of this statement, he did say that there was

problems with the contracts for over 30 years. Somebody somewhere should

have seen what was happening and not allowed it to reach 18 million

pounds of public money going astray. Could the Minister Teller, is there

any possibility that somebody will be made accountable for this error

and criminal proceedings will be initiated so that some of the money

will be recouped on behalf of the taxpayer. We do need to get to the

bottom of responsibility here. did this happen, how did it happen

and people have two take responsibility for their actions. Or

inactions, as the case may be. With the Minister agree that those

elected representatives who made representation on behalf of East

Belfast Red Sky and who were pilloried in the press are doing

so, have now been completely ruined decay to -- vindicated. On the basis

of the report, there is really no doubt that the issues with Housing

executive contracts were not unique to Red Sky.

Indeed, it is clear there were significant contractors engaged in

similar practices. At the time that the Red Sky contracts were

terminated, it was argued by some people that Red Sky was singled out

and the motivation behind the decision was questioned. The

department received representations from a number of political parties,

as he knows from East Belfast, the DUP and ultimate unionists and

Alliance party. All of the parties spoke out at that time on the

matter. I have to say that the first point I made there, the other

contractors that were around when gauged in similar prayer forces.

That has been vindicated by the report. The Minister for Social

Development, Nelson McCausland. Joining me now from the Committee

for Social Development is Sinn Fein's Fra McCann.. What is your

reaction to today's announcement? There is a lot the Minister said I

could not disagree with. It is a scandal, a scandal that needs to be

dealt with. But I draw the line, it is easy to say there is an �80

million overspend but there is no flesh on the bones of how it

originated and where it came from and where the money was paid out and

who paid it out. Are you satisfied with the action the Minister has

taken, there will be an audit and a review and he says serious questions

need to be answered. I agree with that. I have no difficulty with that

but I would go further and I am on record saying what he needs to do is

include his own department in any review that takes place. When all is

said and done, his department is the governing body, the parent body of

the Housing executive and they have not picked up some serious problems

that existed in contracts and there are serious questions to be answered

and the buck stops with the Minister. He stood up today and said

people must take responsibility for the actions or inactions. You saying

the Minister is responsible? Minister has to be responsible for

his actions. And I think when you look at this scandal going back, it

originated at the time of the introduction of the contractors many

years ago, there are a number of ministers including his predecessors

who could have dealt with this over a period of time. You say the buck

stops with him, �18 million of taxpayers money, are you saying he

is responsible? Of course.He needs to have an independent enquiry, that

needs to include the role and lack of leadership by his department and

it leads to him. There needs to be flash put on the bones of what has

been said today, not only is �18 million overpayment, in the past two

or three years, there's been 25 million underspent. If he is found

to have taken his eye off the ball, what then? He needs to make a

decision whether his leadership or lack of leadership has to regular

lead to not dealing effectively with what has happened. It is serious.

�18 million, we are dealing with the longest waiting lists there has

been, my constituency is chock-a-block at hostels are full of

people trying to get houses, a �27 million underspent could have been

spent on housing. We leave it there. Peter Robinson is

hoping to announce an economic pact with the UK government. Pressing the

government for the devolution of Corporation Tax remains a key

protein. We are examining the actions that can be taken forward

now so a devolved rates could be implemented as soon as possible

after a positive decision by the UK government in 2014. We are

disappointed the Prime Minister does not intend to make a decision on the

devolution of Corporation Tax until 2014, the executive remains

committed to securing these powers to rebalance the economy, create

jobs and increased prosperity. Devolution will allow us to meet a

shared objection -- objective to rebalance the economy. The proposals

Karoly been developed as part of the impact will stimulate economic

growth and its intended the measures will be put in place pending the

Corporation Tax decision, we hope an announcement will be made later this

week. It's important to state the measures being discussed as part of

the economic pact are not sought as a replacement for Corporation Tax,

the executive will continue to push for Corporation Tax powers to help

provide stimulus to move the economy forward. We will consider the case

for an additional fiscal powers to assist incoming growth and we are

conscious of the implications for the grant and the Minister of

Finance is pressing the government to take action on issues like fuel

duty, short haul air passenger duty and VAT for the hospitality sector

and construction sectors. The key element in terms of the Friday of

this week, if that is the date we can get the pact agreed with her

majesties government, the key element is not just the commitment

they will definitely take a decision in 2014 but as important to us that

if that's a positive decision, it will be implemented during the term

of the coalition government. Could I ask him if he is aware of and

whether he has given any consideration to the roofing paper

is by Amnesty International, one covering child abuse and the other

about abuse in the Magdalen laundry institutions. In relation to the

abuse perpetrated by the clergy, that clerical abuse, it is no less

important, or no less a motive than the institutional abuse, and we are

mindful of the equally destructive impact that that abuse has upon

individuals. I have said in the house before, following the enquiry

into historical institutional abuse, it will be for the executive to

consider how to deal with abuse that does not fall within the enquiry's

terms of reference. In relation to the Magdalen laundry, I know there

is a question later on, can I say that anyone who was resident here

within the map: Laundries or similar institutions as a child, between

1922 and 1995, can go forward to the enquiry into historical

institutional abuse to relate their experience. They will be able to

talk in private about their experiences to members of the

enquiry acknowledgement forum, and the contact details are available on

the website. The Junior Minister Jonathan Bell.

There is clearly something going on with the distribution of energy

costs here - that's what the Enterprise Committee was told last

week when it heard from the Authority for Utility Regulation and

local business representatives. A report found large businesses face

some of the highest energy prices in Europe, as we can hear now in our

weekly look at committee business. The main findings of our work was

that domestic prices were around about the European average, which is

not a bad place to be, given where we are in the energy supply chain.

But we will come onto that later on. Also, the prices for small business

customers were around the EU average and they make up 70% of the total

businesses. For the remaining 30% of business customers, those using more

than 20 megawatt and, prices were among the highest. We in Northern

Ireland are challenged by our size and our isolation and our dependence

on imported fuels. When you add that all up, we are not in a fantastic

race to begin with. First of all, the utility regulator sets the

amount of money that they can charge consumers and you all know that that

issue, they did not accept the proposals for expenditure over the

next five years. That issue is now with the petition commission to be

resolved. We take the view that we scrutinised that long and hard and

we are trying to do the best we possibly can for consumers whilst at

the same time ensuring that we have the right level of investment in the

network to maintain long-term reliability and security of supply

for consumers. The other point is that, and it is the distribution.

This is a key point, the distribution of network charges

amongst different consumer groups. What is very interesting, when you

compare us to the Republic of Ireland, network charges on average

are 20% lower than they are on average in the Republic of Ireland.

What is very interesting is when you look at what large users are paying,

they are paying something like 20% higher. There is clearly something

going on in distribution. The distribution of charges has to be

significantly different and we can come back to that point that it is a

key finding. What I would like to say is I run a small Northern

Ireland company. We started off in Northern Ireland and we want to play

our part in Northern Ireland. We want to be part of the food and

Trent strategy. -- food and Trent strategy. -- drink strategy. Costs

are close on forcing us to move the part of our production that goes to

the mainland. We will save in some processes. We will save the guts of

100,000 on alert visiting and we will save the cost of 100,000 on the

transport -- we will save the cost of 100,000 on electricity. 100 staff

would go. That is how serious it is in this moment in time. It is now

four years since we first presented this problem to the committee.

During that for years the only policies we have seen our policies

which will make the problems worse, policies which will compound the

problem and increase cost. There is no policy whatsoever to address the

high cost. Bryan Gray from Manufacturing

Northern Ireland. Sinn Fein was accused of "fairytale

economics" by the Finance Minister today as he answered questions on

the devolution of fiscal powers. First up, however, Sammy Wilson was

asked how much his department has spent on flags and flagpoles in the

last five years. The department has spent �7 on flags

and flagpoles in the last five years. You can see that we get good

bargains for the flag in Northern Ireland. Does the Minister recognise

that by erecting flag poles in Belfast city centre, this could

potentially raised tensions unnecessarily and further to that,

was there consultation carried out by people before the decision?

see, this question amazes me. People who objected to the steps of which I

have taken, Mr Deputy Speaker, are actually responsible for the powers

which I have exercised. I am exercising my powers through the

flags and regulations Northern Ireland 2000 at it. What was the

origin of this act? The origin of this act was the Belfast agreement.

Who negotiated the Belfast agreement? Sinn Fein, the SDLP, and

to end all state? Who encouraged people to vote for it? So I could

almost say thank you to the members party for giving me the ability and

for encouraging people to give me the ability to direct flags on

government buildings in Belfast city centre. Many businesses have

expectations that revaluation will lead to a lowering of rates and this

is evident from the many radio broadcasts which we have heard.

I ask the Minister what action he intends to take to manage those

expectations? Some businesses will pay more because economic conditions

have moved in their favour. market has pushed consumers towards

certain types of businesses or areas. Some businesses will pay less

because either the areas that are in, or the locations they are, have

had a fall in the number of customers, footfall, economic

activity and therefore that is reflected in the relevant rents that

they pay. I think that is the first thing, to try and get this message

over. The same of -- same amount of money will began that so there will

be winners and losers. The Finance Minister, Sammy Wilson.

And Mr Wilson had a busy day as he presented details of the budgets for

the Stormont departments to the Assembly. More than eight billion

pounds were up for discussion. resolution covers the house and the

estimates are set up. The committee's scrutiny of the main

estimates focused on scrutinising the background for the allocations

for each department. The amounts of money is involved were significant

including a total of almost �100 million in resource allocations and

�313 million in capital allocations. The Minister did say rather

encouraging words in relation to the current economic situation. I would

hope that he would perhaps expand on that and give us even more

encouragement in relation to the economic situation. It does seem to

me that we are still in the doldrums. The current financial

climate remains challenging as the amount of money for public

expenditure in Northern Ireland continues. The Assembly wants those

public funds that are available to be spent wisely. The Assembly must

be able to hold to account those public oddities that have that task.

-- those public bodies. And so I thought a new vibrant opposition

party, NI 21, that there would be nothing for me to do today, but to

my dismay I discover that we now have to add the acronym a wall --

AWI OL to it. They must come forward and say with one voice, this is what

we intend to do, this is where we will allocate resources and where

there is clarity of vision, clarity of the way forward, we will provide

the necessary oversight and clarity of presentation? It is nice to see

that the new party of Northern Ireland is on a lead and that the

end of a lead is Jim Allister. of a sudden, Mr MacRae appears in

the chamber. I thought it was last Thursday, the 45 on Monday. There

are signs of growth. But let's be realistic about this. There are

still big chine just for us and since we plunged the very depths of

the recession, it will take a long time and growth will be very slow.

Even the predictions for the UK economy are for 1.5%. Going back to

the heights of where we will does where we were before will take some

time. Sammy Wilson. I'm joined again by

our political correspondent, Martina Purdy. It will be a busy week with

the G8 coming to town. We will have heard from Barack Obama. He will

begin a keynote address. I think you will talk about seizing the

initiative and keep on going. And what about the finance package?

that happen before the G8? The First Minister suggested that could happen

before Friday. Obviously, we were not expecting a big file --

obviously, we are not expecting a big pile of money. There are

enterprise zones which will create jobs and access to finance. It is

not just Arab Obama coming to town, it is a pretty -- it is not just

Barack Obama coming to town, it is a pretty impressive line-up. And there