14/01/2014 Stormont Today

Welcome to Stormont Today. Coming up on the programme. Party leaders meet

to discuss the proposals. Martin McGuinness says the party needs to

show more leadership. I've watched over the last 18

months, Unionist Parties dancing to the tune of extremists within their

own communities. That has to end. MLAs debate the public pension pot

and its far-reaching implications. 216,000 employees in the Public

Services. That represents over 30% of the total workforce across the

north. And to help get to the bottom of it, I'm joined by financial

journalist Paul Gosling. The leaders of the five main parties

came together this afternoon to discuss the Haas proposals on flags,

parades and the past. The meeting came a day after the assembly

rejected a Sinn Fein motion calling for the implementation of the plan.

Amendments by the UUP, the DUP and Alliance were voted down. Some of

the leaders spoke to the media in the Great Hall after today's

discussions. We had a good, robust meeting. We

have discussed the thing. It's my view that we have had enough process

and that the issues are now over to the five party leaders to basically

sort out. I'm keen to get some sort of an implement aches process on

those things that we agree on to get legislation on those things that ewe

can push forward and to get. Resolution on the issues that are

still to be resolved. I welcome the fact the party lead verse had a

meeting and that we'll be meeting again next week. What is absolutely

clear is that we need real action to deal with outstanding issue, not the

illusion of activity. Is this deal looking at activity or not? Next

week will tell. But the elephant in the room here is

very clear for I think everybody to But the elephant in the room here is

see. I have watched over the course of the last 18 months to Unionist

Parties dancing to the tune of extremists within their own

communities. That has to end. I say that because I believe that the

influence of these people has impacted on the Haas that

negotiations and negotiations in the Haas outcome. This is a time for

leadership. I've stood against full square the activities of so-called

Republican dissidents. My house has been attacked, my wife has been

abused in the streets, slogans have been written around my house, I have

been criticised right, left and centre, but give no quarter to

anybody who believes in violence or the threat of violence represents a

way forward. I expect the same sort of leadership from everybody else in

this Assembly. This has to be a very determined attempt by political

leaders to deliver sooner rather than later. I do not envisage this

process going anywhere close to the elections of this year. This is a

are test. The test is now. The test isn't going to come after the

election or after the next election or after the Assembly elections in

2016. The test of leadership is coming now and it's coming in the

coming days and weeks. The unionist leaders didn't appear

before the cameras after the meeting, but a DUP source said the

parties have to achieve a deal among themselves and it isn't enough for

just the Nationalists to agree with Dr Haas. The parties agree to meet

next week. So to the debate that dominated proceedings in the

Assembly today. The public service Pensions Bill is huge body of work

and it directly affects almost a third of people working in Northern

Ireland. Civil servants, teachers, nurses, police officers and

firefighters will all see the terms of their pensions Hagued -- changed.

Here is a taste of the marathon debate. -perve I have no doubt that

all members will be keenly aware of their decisions today and at

indeed the Bill will impact upwards indeed the Bill will impact upwards

of 260,000 employees in the Public indeed the Bill will impact upwards

30% of the total workforce across the north. Those affected are civil

servants, local government officers, teachers, Health Service workers,

prison officers, police officers and firefighters.

There is a very important piece of legislation and I think, as a member

of the financial personnel committee, it was a very valuable

exercise in going through the evidence on this particular group of

amendments. I think on that we got submissions both from a wide range

of witnesses and also I think we'd very good interaction with the

Department of Officials. Unless you have a degree of expertise in

pensions, a lot of terminology at times can be a little confusing.

Indeed it's important that we are able to, as a committee, plough our

way through the potential mine field that is there. We do believe it's

essential that there is strong Trade Union representation on these new

boards. I think the minister accused me of being in cahoots with the

Trade Unions and he is, I don't know if that ease the actual term to use,

but - "worse than that" right, I can tell the minister, I make no apology

for that. We have consulted wide widely among a range of stakeholders

including the Trade Unions and we have taken cogny Sans of their views

quite rightly so in my view. Cognisance. The public service group

have stated that they have grave concerns over fairles and

transparency due to the fact that scheme information is controlled by

the department and ultimately by the Treasury -- fairness. It's not

perhaps a piece of legislation that we'd enact if it was entirely up to

us. But they share parity with Westminster again and it raises its

head. My colleague voted against the changes at Westminster but the

decisions we face today now are very much focussed en the direct

financial impact that we'll face if we fail to implement the reforms. If

the intention of Mr Bradley and his colleagues is to in fact be

the intention of Mr Bradley and his of people within our public sector

are not members of Trade Unions, then it's not representative to have

solely Trade Union representatives on pension boards. In facts to

restrict membership of pension boards to only Trade Union

representatives could be seen as discriminatory against the greater

volume of people who are affected by all the Sarahious schemes who're not

members of Trade Unions. I'm sure the member wouldn't want to in any

way be seen to be discriminatory against one section of workers over

another. I think also, there was comments about the perception of

some unions, and that's why some of these comments have come forward,

that there was insufficient remarks from the department and the Trade

Unions. I can assure them and the House that there's been beyond

sufficient consult aation. I'm sure some of my officials will be

staggered by the idea that they have not engaged in this. There have been

umpteen engagements. Just because the Trade Unions haven't got the

outcome that they might want, doesn't mean there hasn't been

sufficient engagements. This piece of legislation rewrites a

fundamental way the law on pensions -- in a fundam way. When there are

members of pension schemes in this part of the world and in Britain who

have grave suspicions about what might next come in terms of pensions

legislation, then it's entirely appropriate, Mr Deputy Speaker, that

when it comes to the powers of administration in relation to future

council provisions, that they come to this House by way of a resolution

in terms of what they are proposing. The problem for me with this Bill is

it's an accountant's Bill. The numbers may work, but the real

question is that potential Liege 68, will the people be able to work? Of

course the numbers have to add up. That's a major component of the Bill

and of course, we cannot ignore that, but equally, we have to ensure

it makes sense in reality. It's undeniably a time of change for

some. But the undeniably a time of change for

in schemes which are fair, affordable and sustainable.

The Finance Minister, Simon Hamilton. With me is the financial

journalist Paul Gosling. Thanks for joining us, welcome to the

programme. This is far-reaching legislation, potentially, which

would affect a huge proportion of the population of Northern Ireland,

of course? It will. As far as the executive is concerned, this

legislation has to go through because if it doesn't, it loses a

quarter of a billion a year, as a block grant from Westminster so. As

far as the ministers are concerned, it has to go through. But you are

absolutely right. It affects 30% of the workforce of Northern Ireland

and that's because we have so many, such a high proportion of our who,

in the public sector. It's a high significant piece oaf legislation

for Northern Ireland than it was nor Great Britain where similar measures

have been adapted already. Is it overly simplistic to say this is

about saving money for the Government, so it must mean people

in receipt of the pensions will be worse off in future? Broadly that is

correct. It means people will be working longer. That's the first

thing. It means people will be taking retirement from public sector

jobs alet the same time that they are taking their state retirement in

the future. The second thing is, it's moving from what's called final

salary on to average pay so that will marginally reduce the amount of

money that people get. I mean, there are other elements as well which is

that traditionally, public sector workers have been on what's called

defining benefits, meaning that they know how much they are going to get.

In future, there is going to be a cap on the amount of money that the

Government or the public sector bodies put in, so that will also

reduce the amount and it means there can't be an absolute guarantee on

what people will get. Does it upset the apple cart between the balance

of people working for the public or private sector. The big attraction

for working in the public sector up to now has always been the very

attractive pension? Yes. This is what's upset the private sector.

During the recession, private sector pay's fallen. There is a position in

Northern Ireland where public sector pay is 20% higher an average than

private sector. The arguments in favour of having a better pension in

the public sector no longer apply. The private sector is very unhappy

about the situation that they have had to make job losses, they have

been cutting pay and people working there are not on very good pensions,

pensions within the private sector, but there's been no comparable

reform. What about the role of the unions in

all of this? They are not happy and feel members are losing out. How

critical is their voice in this debate and what kind of impact do

you think it can have? Well, the unions have been very unhappy about

it. I'm surprised they have not been heard more vocally. They are unhappy

in particular that the members will be working longer to receive

pensions, and longer than expected. That is the key thing. But broadly,

they also feel they have not been consulted sufficiently and we hear

Simon Hamilton, the Finance Minister, reject that argument, but

that is their view. Very briefly, while the Bill applies across all

the public service, there are areas which are unique to certain jobs.

Firefighters, for example, are a special case? And police as well.

Because they cannot be expected to work as long because their jobs are

more physically demanding, so yes, they will be affected but not quite

in the same way as the rest of the public sector. Thank you very much.

After five hours of debate, that Bill passed its consideration stage.

Education now, and a struggling secondary school with low pupil

numbers was given another chance by the sedgecation minister today in. A

shake-up of schools in East Belfast, Dunndonald High will stay open and

get help. As minister, I have the responsibility of scrutinising

proposals. The proposals put for consideration are to amalgamate two

high schools, to close other schools and increase the size of the girls

and boys' high schools. The scale and impact of these proposed changes

are significant. They reflect the need to restructure

the area. Firstly, the amalgamation of the two high schools - inrollment

has declined from 574 in 20107-08 to 385 in 2012-12.

has declined from 574 in 20107-08 to performance of both schools at GCSE

level has been significantly below average. However, there have been

signs of improvement in recent years. The amalgamations proposed

will result in a School of Around 1,000 pew pills. I have decided to

approve this. It will provide -- pupils. It will address the issues

faced by both schools in the past. With only 92 pupils remaining in

Orangefield, the declined to such an extent that is no longer feasible to

approve its closure. It's too late to turn the situation

around. The only reasonable option available to me regarding the future

of Orangefield is to approve its closure from 31st August, 2014.

I want to turn to the future of Dundonald High. I have considered

very carefully the proposal of the schools and can see many reasons why

this would be, as in the case of --ingfield be an appropriate course

of action -- Orangefield. . Dundonald is a large urban area with

a large population of school age children. There is no other

inclusive post-primary school close by. From engagement with local

representatives, it's clear that this is a community whose people

need and should rightly expect to be able to access good quality

secondary education. It's clear this is not happening. The provision in

Dundonald's simply not been good enough. The last inspection a couple

of months ago highlighted modest improvement but painted a graphic

picture of low attendance, low attainment and low aspirations.

The school is in the right geographical location. The young

people are there and the community like all communities need and

deserve a good school. So on this occasion, I decided not to accept

the proposal for closure. Our recruitment process will come in

shortly to recruit a principle pal. demonstrating letters and sets high

standards and expectation for all of the young people.

The education minister. Pupil numbers will remain the same at

Ashfield Girls and Boys school. Priory college in Hollywood has been

given the go-ahead to improve slightly. This time the focus on

Question Time was on the approach to the Dixon plan. What What possible

confidence can be had given the way he's behaved in the treatment of the

Dixon plan? I suspect, like other members of his

party, he's not interested in the Dixon plan, he's interested in two

schools, name namely the colleges, because the local represents are

represents representatives are not interested. Let's be honest, your

concern is the needs of two schools in the Craigavon area that serve a

selection of the Protestant commune in that area. The -- Protestant

community in that area. The less well off are voiceless in this

debate. No-one from the DUP will speak up for them. No-one from the

Ulster Unionist Party will speak up for them, all concentrated on the

needs of do schools who have a close relationship with a good friend of

the DUP. Now, that's another matter that deserves exploration. You say

that it's clear from the minutes of the SELB Board Meeting, that they

acted under duress. Do you want to clarify what that was in the

minutes? Your party colleagues are no doubt aware that there's been

acts of intimidation, harassment, threats, made against people who've

stood up and said, we don't agree with the DUP's vision on this, we

don't agree with the vision on this, we believe there is another way of

doing this. They have been subject to threats, intimidation against

them. The DUP and the Ulster Unionist Party have remained silent

on that matter. So if you want to look for duress, if you want to look

for intimidation, you're looking look for duress, if you want to look

interest is the education of all the young people in the sector. He keeps

making remarks about the DUP and the Ulster Unionist. They represent the

vast majority of those people who attend the schools. I can also throw

back in his face the view that they are Protestant schools. Any child is

entitled to attend Lurgan. There is no discrimination. What confidence

with k the people have in him, particularly representing the area,

when he's trying to railroad this through against the witches of the

vast majority of parents? The member states that he and his party

represent the vast majority of the community is absolutely right - well

then start representing the vast majority of the people in relation

to this matter because your voices have remained silent on the

educational and poor educational outcomes afforded to the Protestant

working class in that community. You need to stand up, you need to make

your vices heard and say the current status quo is completely and totally

unacceptable -- voices. Point of order.

During his answer to Mr Wells, Mr O'Dowd claimed knowledge of

instances of threat and intimidation and threat and intimidation, of

course, involves criminality. Would it be in order to ask if, with that

knowledge, the minister has reported such matters to the PSNI as must be

expected from his public role and his obligation to uphold the rule of

law and not to withhold information? The member has stayed well off the

point and I do not accept that as a valid point of order. However, I

will refer this to the speak's office because there was an

allegation made of co herrings from this side of the House which wasn't

substantiated and that should be examined -- coherence.

Plans on how to commemorate the past and celebrate the future were

tackled by the Culture, Arts and Leisure minister today. 2014 marks

the centenary of Leisure minister today. 2014 marks

benefits from its time as having the first City of Culture.

I have secured over ?2 million for the January to March period 2014 to

support a continuation of key projections programmes and to

prevent the loss of key benefits and partnerships. Therefore, I came to

ensure that the office that will be set up for the enhanced focus in the

north-west, this will have responsibility for coordination

oversight of Culture, Arts and Leisure, which will include

Coleraine and other areas. Overlooked the fact that it was a UK

City of Culture, but she will be aware that inclusivity was the key

word throughout the UK safe culture year. What steps is she going to

take to ensure that it spreads out from Londonderry, stra ban and

Coleraine that that key word is implemented in practise, that

communities see it as a system and a set of programmes that tech take

part in and there doesn't have to be arguments, fights and disputes in

order to get there -- Strabane? I thank the Minister for His question

to. Be fair, the members I know are not arguing and fighting about this

whole thing. I'm sure he will support Derry's bid for Irish City

of Culture in 2016 and I look forward to his support in that.

Libraries are developing a programme of exhibitions, talks and book

launches to commemorate the start of the First World War. Museums are

also planning to outline access to collections and an exhibition and

programming at the Ulster museum and Transport Museum. It will involve

cooperation with the national Museum of Ireland and the Imperial War

Museum and National Portrait Gallery in London. I think that certainly

the more collaborative approaches that we have to make sure that we

make a respectful events, regardless as Governments and representatives

of many people across this island and indeed other Irelands, we try to

work collectively. I want to assure the member, I will talk to anyone,

regardless of who they are, about learning lessons from the past. I'm

happy to talk to anyone. Speaking as someone whose graez great

grandfather died at the Battle only the Somme, it's important we

recognise the communities. Would you downme in commending the minister in

his good work in recognising the contribution. Of course the history

books will show that many people joined. Have you any plans to meet

or have you met with to coordinate with an all-Ireland response,

particularly around the 4th August, the date of entry to the war? I

thank the member for her question and it will come as no surprise I

have met with him and plan to have further meetings on this. I'm

certainly looking at, like for example, Public Records Offices of

both are looking at ways in which we can use archives in order to add to

centenaries or even learning and education. We are also looking at

libraries. We have had conferences on this and we have had discussions

and will continue to do so around how we celebrate and work together

where possible in celebrating and remembering and commemorating events

that were significant throughout the course of the decade of centenaries.

Is it possible that I would be correct in surmising that we could

be financing the commemoration of rebels and terrorists?

Well, given the context of the question so far that have been based

within the First World War, I think it's a bit churlish of the member to

start - I mean you are the only person today who's been affronted -

that's just a give given. But in the spirit of the members's question, I

will be upfront learning, Bezzer respect and

certainly more inclusivity and use the centenaries in order to do that,

I will. A forthright minister responding there. Paul Gosling is

still with me for a few final thoughts. We have been talking about

the Haas proposals. If they were agreed in the future, could we

expect some sort of economic bounce? No. I don't think there will be

anything like the Good Friday Agreement effect. I think you look

at the other side of the coin. If it's not agreed, then we are going

to have more parading problems, more problems with flag protests and it

will put off investment and also people shopping in the city centre

in Belfast in particular. So it will damage the economy if we did not get

agreement. We heard the figures about the disappointing foot fall

for the Christmas period, down 9% on the same period last year. Is that a

big concern? Did you hear that with your head in your hands this

morning? No, because I wasn't surprised. We have to accept that

the retail sector in Northern Ireland is too big for the amount of

demand and spending and we are going to see a continued contraction. We

will see more vacancies and, I'm afraid, the retail sector is not

going to be the place it was in 2008 or whatever. Do you think that's

compounded, that basic fact is compounded by people's uncertainty

about whether there might be trouble in Belfast on a certain Saturday

afternoon? That's clear that people from the republic for example are

not going to COMMENTATOR: Over and people from

Great Britain are going to come over for fewer trips. We have the trends

with more people shopping online and we probably have too many shops in

Northern Ireland and actually, it's going to be a declining sector for

Northern Ireland. We seem to be hearing competing interpretations of

the economic climate. We hear people saying on the one hand green shoots,

house prices are stabilising, maybe on the upturn, the construction

sector seems to be more positive than before, it wasn't the worst

Christmas on the high street. Then we hear George Osborne, the

Chancellor saying, after the next election, there'll be further huge

cuts in public spending. Where do you think we are at the moment? As

far as Britain is concerned, we are seeing that there are more private

sector jobs created and public sector jobs lost. We have almost

permanent austerity if we have a Conservative Government

permanent austerity if we have a dependent on Great Britain more than

the Irish Republic. We haven't got sufficient manufacturing here to

generate the economy, so we are fundamentally weak and I don't see

that we are going to have any sort of recovery here which is equivalent

to that in Britain. The property sector remains basically a really

difficult problem. Very interesting to hear your

thoughts. Thank you very much indeed for joining us. That's it for

tonight. Don't forget to join me on Thursday night for The View. Until

then, from all of us, bye. Hidden beneath your feet

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