20/01/2014 Stormont Today

Hello and welcome to Stormont Today. Coming up in the programme: The

findings of the Smithwick Tribunal are debated, but nationalists want a

similar inquiry to take place north of the border.

There is one inquiry which has not been undertaken and remains to be

undertaken, and is part of a commitment by the British

Government. That is in relation to this man's murder.

Remarks made by Martin McGuinness lead to some tough questions in the

chamber. Can we expect... And I'm joined by our political

reporter Stephen Walker to look at the ramifications of that explosive

Ian Paisley interview. In December the Smithwick Tribunal

concluded there had been coalition between the Gardai and the IRA in

the murder of two of the highest ranking RUC officers killed in the

Troubles. Today the Assembly got its chance to

Troubles. Today the Assembly got its station. The DUP brought the motion.

The Smithwick Tribunal took eight years to complete its work,

gathering extensive information and setting for 132 days of public

hearings and it took evidence from 198 witnesses, 22 of which appeared

more than on one occasion. In his report he says, the fact that the

preparations commenced so late in the morning tens to make it more

likely that information came from Dundalk Garda -- Gardai station. It

is indicated that there was coalition. I am satisfied that they

are required positive identification that Harry Breen in particular had

arrived at and Gardai station. I am satisfied that the evidence points

to the fact that there was someone within the Gardai station assisting

the IRA. This inquiry arose out of the Weston Park agreement. Which was

in 2001. And at that conference, it was agreed between the British and

Irish governments and among the parties that there should be a

number of enquiries into events of a contentious and controversial nature

involving coalition on the part of the security forces and

paramilitaries including the provisional IRA. But there is one

inquiry which has not been undertaken, and remains to be

undertaken, and is part of our commitment by the British

Government. That is in relation to the murder of Pat Finucane. The

thing that -- the Smithwick Tribunal does -- is not on the same scale or

form of the coalition that happened within the British state forces.

Against the Catholic nationalist community. In the main in

institutionalised, and it was coordinated coalition. It led to the

deaths of hundreds of citizens. Including the Dublin Monaghan

bombings and the notorious gang who were involved over -- in over 100

killings. He referred to Smethwick is open and honest, trans. He

continued, out of respect for the families we should risk -- recall

the human aspect of this atrocity. We should always remember the last

these families endured. There were over 3,500 souls lost during the

Troubles. Where allegations of coalition are concerned, we have

always thought that the state there is a responsibility. We have to ask

questions of ourselves. I would ask some of the members opposite to

think long and hard over past and any role they played in the murder

or injury of any of the citizens of this province. The judge's report

highlighted coalition between as yet unidentified members of the Gardai

and members of the provisional IRA. Contrary to the outrageous views of

the few, the vast majority of us are horrified by the report was my

conclusions. The Alliance party welcomes the speedy response of the

Irish Government in offering an absolute and unqualified apology. My

duty as Minister of judgement in 2014 is to insure that we learn the

lessons of the past, and put into place the necessary structures at

this stage. -- Minister of justice. That is why since the publication of

the report, I have had face-to-face discussions with the Minister for

Justice and equality in addition to a number of telephone calls.

The Justice Minister David Ford. Joining me now is our political

reporter Stephen Walker. What's your assessment of

reporter Stephen Walker. Tribunal were debated in

reporter Stephen Walker. many ways this began as a narrow

debate, then it widened out into a whole series of issues. These are

issues that were very -- we are very familiar with. The main motion

obviously centred on the Smithwick Tribunal, looking at the two murders

of Harry Breen and Bob Buchanan. What we heard today was very

familiar, the DUP accused the Gardai commissioner of being in denial and

suggested Sinn Fein had tried to sabotage the efforts of the

tribunal. Gregory Campbell raised the issue of the several inquiry

which looked into the events of Bloody Sunday. Then this debate went

into other areas, Sinn Fein raised the issue of Pat Finucane. By and

large it was conducted in pretty good heart, but as I say we have

heard the arguments about the past many times, often you felt slightly

watching this debate that people were kind of on autopilot on some

occasions. But it was done with good grace. What happened to the main

motion? The main motion was a DUP motion which called for those

responsible for the deaths of Harry Breen and Bob Buchanan to be brought

to justice, and they called for just -- discussions between Irish police

north and south on the Minister of Justice. There was an SDLP amendment

but that failed. He was supposed to be answering

questions on the latest North South Ministerial Council meeting, but

instead Martin McGuinness came under fire from unionists in the chamber.

The Deputy First Minister was asked about the St Andrews Agreement

review and his recent comments about the Orange Order. Seven years on,

what is the product of this -- of the St Andrews agreement review, and

what is the level of agreement concerning it? And is the Deputy

first Minister fed up with that as well? And if so, can we expect the

mask slip, as it did last well? And if so, can we expect the

that question I should answer, but certainly in terms of the St Andrews

agreement review we did have a useful discussion at the meeting,

and we are pleased to note that work is under way to implement the

discussion taken at the meeting which we attended in November, for

Ministers to consider the priorities, in their respective

areas and for a report on that consideration to be considered at

the next institutional, so without pre-empting these discussions there

are areas which we could explore which would deliver mutual benefits

to both jurisdictions. So I look forward to consider a report and

what Ministers see as their priorities once they have had these

discussions. In regard to the second aspect of the question, that does

not relate to the institution... Just on the St Andrew 's review, the

-- discussions, does he accept that there will be a need to build on the

changes that were agreed at St Andrews, in order that if Ministers

go off like the Agriculture Minister did before Christmas, and take a

decision, that that decision has to be overturned whether at the

executive or at the courts of law? The member is as clear about the

outcome of the St Andrew 's negotiations and the legislation

that flowed from that, obviously in relation to the issue that he has

raised, it did not actually come up at the institutional meeting of the

North-South ministerial -- North South Ministerial Council that the

first Minister and I attended. It is a subject of controversy. The

Minister for agricultural spoke about this last week, and I will

leave the last word on that with her department and with herself.

The Deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness.

The Enterprise, Trade and Investment Minister Arlene Foster also faced

questions in the House. She pledged to support the construction company

Mivan, which recently announced the loss of almost 100 jobs - but first

Mivan, which recently announced the the Rugby World Cup. This coming

together between ourselves and the relevant Ministers in the Republic

of island is a realisation that neither of us would be able to host

the World Cup on our own. And I think in that instance we should

work together for mutual benefit in Northern Ireland, the Republic of

Ireland, I think this is a good working relationship. We will have a

further meeting on Wednesday of this week, to develop the plans further,

and I think the call will be launched, not imminently but in May

of 2016, but we want to be ready and make sure that we have all of the

work in place, because we really do believe that given our shared

history and heritage in relation to rugby foot tall, but we can really

put on an excellent event. -- football. Right across Northern

Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, for everyone here, but also to bring

in numerous amounts of tourists into Northern Ireland, so for us I think

I see great benefit. I thank the Minister for her answers. Maybe the

Minister wants to send a delegation of malaise to the next Rugby World

Cup. I am sure some of us would be willing to go. -- MLAs. She made

some positive comments of the G8's role in securing this bid, but come

as the Minister whether her department or the Department of

sport in the South has considered any kind of personal support to the

IRA for help in securing this bid? We are working very closely with

both branches. But, yes, part of the meeting on Wednesday is to look at

what practical measures we have to take to make sure we are ready. I

will take comments on take to make sure we are ready. I

are well set to welcome this tournament to the island in 2023 and

we will give them all the support they ask for. Obviously, within

budget. The Minister will be aware of job losses in recent days. What

plans does the Department have? It was disappointing news on Friday. I

understand most of the job losses announced on Friday were in relation

to work outside of Northern Ireland, contracts being delivered outside

Northern Ireland. I have spoken to the admin and financial director of

the company. They are working hard to find a solution. We will support

them in any way we can. I have made that very clear.

Arlene Foster pledging support for Mivan. The Employment and Learning

Minister was also on his feet today. The expansion of the Magee campus,

youth unemployment and the future of the Senior Common Room at the

University of Ulster's Coleraine campus were all up for discussion.

The University of Ulster is currently undertaking a 1.5 million

review of its estate. Demolition of the South buildings and construction

of a new state-of-the-art teaching and learning block to replace the

academic provision previously housed in the South buildings. The

University will continue to provide common room facilities. . Can the

Minister inform us what direction the department has had with the

University or protesters during this parade? It was a matter for the

University to address and resolve. Universities are at an 's body is.

University to address and resolve. government, that support runs in the

policy direction. It is not the job of government to micromanage how

universities conduct their affairs. A number of us got behind the

employment scheme. Can he report on how successful it has been not just

in numbers of people coming through but in getting to the heart of

working-class estate? I thank the member for his question. The youth

employment scheme has been successful in its own right. If we

also make comparisons with our performance in Northern Ireland

relative to similar schemes in Great Britain, across a number of

different indicators, we are performing better. This is a

reflection of the advantages of devolution. We have not copied

something that is delivered in Great Britain and rolled it out. We have

listened to the voices of young people and the business community

and found our own particular solution. We have achieved better

outcomes. The members -- the member is also right to talk about

outreach. Our advisers will stir those who are not employed to the

youth employment scheme. There are other schemes out there so to work

with those who are more disengaged or are facing barriers. The strategy

for those is so important. We will look at the youth programme over the

coming months to refresh the strategy and to make sure we are on

the right level in engaging people. Does the Minister agree with me that

an expanded college is essential to developing the economy? If we are to

make developing the economy? If we are to

at the same time as we have to make further reductions in terms of

allocations to the sector. As a adequate, we follow as the quality

of education. The Employment and Learning

Minister, Stephen Farry. An Ulster Unionist motion expressing concern

that a disagreement between two Executive Ministers was brought

before the High Court has failed to win support. At the end of last year

the Finance Minister took legal action over how the Agriculture

Minister planned to distribute European funding. Robin Swann

brought the motion to the floor and he's with me now.

Your party colleague Jo-Anne Dobson in proposing the motion said the

court case was an embarrassment. Is that why you brought it? To attempt

to further embarrass the DUP and Sinn Fein? Not in the slightest. You

correctly explained that the agriculture Minster made a

statement. That decision was taken by the Minister without consultation

to the agriculture committee. The DUP took the steps to the High Court

to have that addressed. We think it is the first place -- first time it

has been taken to public domain. This response ability of the

Minister to consult with the Assembly and with the agriculture

committee before making these decisions. Do you agree with what

the party that by having to take it to court? We believe they have two

sort this out around the executive table. Both ministers had come down

to the stage with the Agriculture Minister said she had sent the big

ears. By the Finance Minister was said to have not received the

papers. The members of this House and the general public can make out

their minds as to who was right. and the general public can make out

resolve the issue with Michelle O'Neill. He dissolved to court

action and court action backed him at. The agriculture NASA said she

tried to convert with the Finance Minister but he did not respond. We

have to sort this out. It cannot be up to the courts and the judiciary

to make decisions as to how much we are transferring. It is up to

members of the committees and the executive. The motion fell pretty

emphatically, you must be disappointed? We brought a motion

that was critical of the Finance Minister and the Agriculture

Minister. Many others supported what we were trying to do but when it

came down to the motion, they failed to support the motion. Sinn Fein is

able to support the Alliance Party amendment. But they failed to

support the amended motion because it was critical of their minister.

It is a marker for your party to lay down. You are saying your party

would not take legal action if it could not agree around the table?

These things have to be sorted out at the executive table. We cannot

have parties making the transfer like a political foot. We have seen

this too many times. Our ministers have two act responsibly. --

responsibly. The have two act responsibly. --

Northern Ireland Human have two act responsibly. --

guidelines on abortion would fail to comply with the European Convention

on Human Rights. John Corey was giving evidence to the OFMDFM

committee last week. Mr Corey also briefed MLAs on the Commission's

submission to Richard Haass. As recorded in the statement last

summer, this commission characterised completion of a number

of substantive papers and the parade and protest and symbols, dealing

with the past of Northern Ireland and a separate paper on the human

rights culture in post-conflict societies. The eternity of human

rights was at the heart of these submissions. The commission

submitted this at the start of the consultation process and we shared

with all the political parties as well. It would be remiss of me not

to add here that the commission also advised the doctor that it will

write for Northern Ireland is justifiable and would have benefit

for the issues that he was addressing. I would reiterate here

because for all parties to give priority to progressing the process

that would result in a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland.

Unfortunately, on a less positive aspect, the commission is reporting

on a number of areas where outstanding matters remain to be

addressed despite his having been raised in the commission statement.

That is no single legislative instrument to consolidate and

clarified existing protections in Northern Ireland. This means this

jurisdiction lags behind other parts of the UK in terms of equality in

law. If I can move on to another difficult issue we recognise and

that is an termination of pregnancy. difficult issue we recognise and

consulted on draft guidelines on this matter and the commission

advised that the draft if implemented would fail to comply

with the European commission on human rights. The Commissioner has

advised that an with human rights laws and standards requires

termination should be made available in Northern Ireland in cases of

rape, incest and serious formation -- Mal formation of the foetus. It

remains a concern. It is an fortunate that during 2015 this

commission had to engage its legal powers to ensure the law governing

the rights of the adoptive parent was compliant with human rights. The

judicial review was necessary with regards to the eligibility of blood

donations. It was further noted that the exclusion of Northern Ireland

from the provisions of same-sex marriage Bill for all aspects we

consider and not in keeping with human rights requirements.

John Corey from the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission appearing

before the OFMDFM Committee. Now, before we go we turn to tonight's

documentary on Ian Paisley which has just been broadcast on BBC One. Our

Political Reporter, Stephen Walker, is back with me. Your overall

thoughts on what was broadcast tonight? I think this was political

dynamite, the kind of soul baring we hardly get on television. We are

used to politicians attacking politicians in other cities --

parties but not a former party leader making direct criticisms of

former colleagues. Strong words directed towards Peter Robinson?

That is a whole catalogue of things that Lord Bannside said. You

referred to him as that Lord Bannside said. You

Paisley also accused the DUP are politically as fascinating her

husband. She had strong words for a survey which was convicted about him

during his last days as First Minister. She said she wanted to ram

it down the throat of his adviser. It was also said that someone had

said they wanted him gone. Fairly direct words in the documentary. The

DUP has rejected this version of events? They have. There was a very

strong test release that was issued last night via e-mail was they have

questioned his recollection of and say his comments are to be

regretted. Peter Robinson said he faithfully served Doctor Paisley

over many decades and rather than written inside for insult, he said

let me bless him with the blessing of my silence. How does this affect

Lord Bannside's legacy? Ian Paisley was known as the man who said

everything there was a political initiative, he would say no. Then he

finally said yes and he went into the power-sharing executive with

Sinn Fein. This documentary tells us, it gives us a glimpse of the

first days. Will this damage the DUP? They have been through tough

times before. The party will say and Peter Robinson they have had good

election results. Stephen, thank you. That's it for

tonight. We're back at the same time tomorrow night. 11.20pm on BBC Two.

For now, though, goodbye.