21/01/2014 Stormont Today

Hello and welcome to Stormont Today. Coming up on the programme: The

Finance Minister talks tough to Sinn Fein on welfare reform.

The move forward on the basis on a package of measures that will take

away some of the worst effects that people will suffer. Let him think

about the effect he has having right now.

Requests from the Speaker's chair meet with a frosty response during

Question Time. Could I have a question please shortly all we will

move on. I will set down. I do not like where you are doing this. --

sit down. And I'm joined by the Newsletter's

political correspondent, Sam McBride.

Money was top of the agenda at Stormont today as the Finance

Minister divvied up his loose change. The health department was

the big winner, with an extra ?30 million being allocated to help deal

with winter pressures. There was also extra money for improvement of

the road network and the expansion of the University of Ulster in

Belfast. But it was welfare reform, or rather the lack of it, that was

first up. Before I go on the allocations made, I returned to the

welfare reform issue. I am hugely disappointed that no progress has

been made on this. The executive had no option but to set aside ?50

million to cover the cost of financial penalties for the

remaining three months of this financial year. This in effect as

one executive colleague described it is dead money, returning to the

Treasury, which is now unable to be spent on services that benefit us.

Those who resist the inevitability of welfare reform can answer why our

health budget, our roads budget or our schools budget has to lose out

this year and potentially next year as well. The -- the Department of

Health will receive an allocation of ?30 million towards key health care

pressures. Whilst there are further significant pressures, I have made

it clear to the health Minister that I expect his department to contain

the remaining costs. That said, this allocation will help to alleviate

the significant front line pressures that have emerged during 2013, 2014.

It will pray a critical role -- play a critical role -- in those issues

affecting patients and the elderly population, and benefit the large

number of patients and service users. The Department for reach

another look -- development -- regional development was allocated

money to maintain our road network and improve local bus stations. The

Department for agriculture will receive ?3 million for expenditure

disallowed under the current Common Agricultural Policy. The executive

agreed a further ?3.3 million under the rule development programme. The

executive agreed to provide capital thundering to the University of

Ulster through a system financing their greater Belfast development

scheme. -- funding. It is my party's view that in terms of the

?15 million of welfare money the Minister refers to, but is not dead

money, that is still in the black -- pockets of many low incomes -- low

income people, and is more likely to be spent, so that money is not dead

money, but money that is quite important to the local economy. The

reality of what we have had to do today in making provision of ?50

million, which will rise to ?200 million, is to deny that money from

some of the very same people the member tries to speak very fondly

about. By taking ?50 million this year away from expenditure into

health, that we can put into education and elsewhere, is denying

some of the very same vulnerable people key services that they

require on Ady today basis. So whenever the member and his

colleagues deny the inevitability of moving forward, they move forward on

the basis of a package of measures that will take away some of the

worst effects that vulnerable people will suffer. Let him think about the

effect he is having not in the future, but right now. I will be

interested in the Minister's understanding of what is and is not

happening at the Maze site and what -- and the reasons why. What goes on

at the Maze site is not a direct responsibility of my department, I

have to deal with as I have in this set of circumstances. The reality of

no progress on a particular project. That is a question better

put to those who are responsible, that being the first Minister and

Deputy first Minister. It is unfortunate that we are not able to

progress with the full potential of the development of that site. I

appreciate there are huge sensitivities around certain aspects

of that area, but I think the member I am sure would agree with me that

beyond one particular project earmarked for that site, there is

huge economic and social benefit for Northern Ireland.

Simon Hamilton. I'm joined by the Newsletter's political

correspondent, Sam McBride. Failure to deal with the issue of welfare

reform remains a huge issue, and the costs of that as the months unfold

were laid before the house today. Yes, it is about ?5 million on

month, and that figure was first raised last summer. It was to try to

joke people into some sort of sense of urgency about this issue. --

jolt. Now we are getting close to where the cuts are going to come,

perhaps more so. But I suppose ?5 million is a substantial sum of

money, and it will necessitate cuts in other areas, but in the grand

scheme of things in our budget of many billions of pounds, it it is

for a few months I think we can certainly live with that, and after

the election I think it would be used to compromise on this issue.

You can understand the logic of that if it is for a few months, but Simon

Hamilton made it clear that it becomes very expensive. ?200 million

perhaps in two years' time. There was a lot said today about the extra

?30 million for health, it is not long before it matches up.

Absolutely. I think ?3 million to health was pretty significant in the

context of what was being divided up, but immigrant scheme of things

it is not massive. It is going to be interesting to see whether Simon

Hamilton as a massively different personality to his predecessor is

able to make process -- progress in this area. If he had been there

today I think he would have been confrontational about this. He would

have been spoiling for a fight perhaps with some of those he thinks

are holding this up. Simon Hamilton's approach is more of

gentle persuasion. The Finance Minister was back on his

feet facing questions from the floor in the afternoon. The behaviour of

banks and addressing income inequality were in his in-tray, as

well as more on welfare reform and the penalties handed down by the

Treasury. I met with the Chief Secretary to

the Treasury on 18th November, where he reinforced his intention to

enforce penalties should the Northern Ireland Executive and this

Assembly not progress the welfare reform bill by January 2014. As the

member we know from the January statement earlier, I have had to

make a provision of ?50 million for penalties we will incur this year.

The Northern Ireland welfare reform bill remains stalled, and Mini to

progress it as a matter of urgency to avoid any further fines. -- we

need to progress in. I am indebted to the Minister for his answer. I

did hear what I thought was a Mini forewarning about the rolling on of

debts or call ups by the Treasury which could end up in ?200 million

if we do not use something about this.

However, since April 20 -- 2007, prices have risen but 18%... Can we

have a question, please? Could we have a question, please?

Can I repeat where I was, in the middle of a question? Could I have a

question or we will move on. I tell you what, I will sit down. I do not

like the way you are doing this. What discussions has he had locally

with the Ulster bank, the RBS and the appropriate Treasury Minister to

ascertain what can be done to prevent more companies being forced

out of business by the seizing of assets. Evidence albeit anecdotal

coming forward from various companies of what they might

describe as sharp practice from some of the banks who were seizing the

assets, putting them out of business in order to repair their own balance

sheet. I would add that that is anecdotal, we get some of that

evidence coming through the Department, it is hard to assess

whether it is true or accurate because we do not have a full view

of everything. Lawrence Tomlinson carried out a review on behalf of

the business secretary Vince Cable, it's happens am meeting with him

tomorrow. -- it so happens. Since his report was published, we have

had some people raising some particular concerns about the

practice the banks have with them. I have passed that along, and there

are various enquiries following on from Lawrence Tomlinson's report,

and I will engage tomorrow on how we can feed any Northern Ireland

evidence into that. If individual members have evidence of sharp

practice, I am more than happy to channel but on anonymously through

the appropriate authorities. How does the Minister proposed to

address the challenges of income and equality? This is a problem that

Northern Ireland has faced for a number of years, and will not be

simply or easily resolved by me or anybody within the executive. Most

economists talk about an imbalance between Great Britain -- the rest of

the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland. If you go south of the

border you would see incomes and disposable household income is

higher must say, than in Dublin and the West of Ireland or Donegal or

somewhere like that. It is not an easy thing to address, but this is

where the executive's economic strategy comes into play, focusing

not just where -- on why it is important to get jobs into our

economy, and I welcome the significant progress made by the

jobs fund that the economy Minister announced yesterday. But we need to

continue to pursue trying to attract new businesses into Northern

Ireland, existing businesses, to encourage them to move into sectors

where the average wage is higher. Simon Hamilton. The Environment

Minister Mark H Durkan, also faced questions today and the continuing

delay in the publication of the Belfast Metropolitan Area Plan

dominated proceedings. Mr Durkan told the Assembly that the

construction industry and many other businesses depend on getting the

area plan up and running. The planning appeals commission

completed an independent public inquiry into the draft Belfast

Metropolitan Area Plan in 2008 and sent its report in stages. My

predecessor published all these reports on the draft plan in June,

2012. My department has now completed its scrutiny of these

reports and all other material considerations and has finalised the

draft plan for publication. My department submitted the map to the

Department for regional development for assessment of a planned against

their strategy 35 and I can confirm the plan was awarded a certificate

of general conformity on the 21st of October last year. I recognise the

importance of this plan for future development the region and the need

to ensure it is adopted and published in its final form as soon

as possible. I have sought the agreement of my ministerial

colleagues and my department now adopts and publishes the plan. Has

the Attorney General advised the Minister that the Belfast

Metropolitan Area Plan is a crosscutting issue and would require

executive approval? I am aware of the view that the map is a

crosscutting policy issue and therefore the view that it does need

executive approval. I have outlined in my initial answer that I have

sought the approval of my ministerial colleagues to proceed

with publication, particularly given uncertainty that the delay on

publication is causing outside that developers, businesses and so many

others. What abuse have been expressed by the business community

in respect of the adoption of the plan Which? what abuse have been

expressed by the business community in respect of the adoption of the

plan? Some have grave concerns over the continued delay. Many

house-builders see the adoption of it as critical to the recovery in

their sector to the workforce can only be sustained by the continuous

supply of planning approvals. A substantial number within the

business community, including builders, have participated in the

planning process since its initiation and it is no exaggeration

to say that millions of pounds have been invested by those participating

in the public inquiry, engaging specialist consultants and legal

advisers, undertaking specialist studies and submitting evidence to

the inquiry in order to secure the zoning of land for housing and

employment. Whilst he released by my predecessor of the report -- whilst

the release of my predecessor of the report, that has provided some

assurance, but many builders supported by their banks through the

most severe recession in living memory are now under severe pressure

from those banks to deliver on these sites, to recover significant sums

invested in the process. I believe we have a duty of care to those

people and therefore that is why I am determined that it should be

published as soon as possible. Mark H Durkan. Sinn Fein has called on

the environment minister to bring forward changes to the law to help

rural dwellers. It is difficult for non-farmers living in the

countryside to get planning permission for new houses. What are

your issues surrounding current planning policy Western Mark --

current planning policy? There is some provision. If a young person in

a rural area at this time beyond the development limits of a village or

town wanted to build a bungalow, a single dwelling in the countryside,

it is almost impossible. They don't even apply nowadays. I was a

councillor between 2000 and 2010 and I attended hundreds of site meetings

where young people were applying for a single House in the country and

they either got it or did not get it but now they do not apply. If every

young couple in the countryside wanted to build an additional

bungalow, you could not cope with the demand. There have to be

restrictions for that reason. I accept that. I am not for unfettered

free for all bungalow blight. Think about it. If a site in the

countryside can be integrated with vegetation, vegetation around the

House, or arising landform behind it, if you can achieve... If you can

address road safety concerns... Sometimes there is such a thing in

the country as a good side. At the minute, it is almost as if they are

all bad. You must be talking about relatively small numbers. Most land

in the countryside is owned by farmers and limited the element is

allowed on agricultural land. The previous planning legislation has

been relaxed and a lot of people see it as sensible progress. Most people

who live in a single House in the countryside would not have room for

a site for an additional House. What is rural? Anything in the North

outside Belfast and Derry is rural. There is a perception in Belfast if

you are from outside of fast that you are a farmer. You might not be.

You could be a plumber, a childcare worker, solicitor. You are not

likely to be a landowner. Very often a family could give to a family

member smallholding site and it can be built upon. I have a good memory

of a particular site in my time as a councillor on the mountain and I

remember a man had gifted a sight to his daughter. In the background was

these overwhelming wind farms and yet the girl in question was not

being allowed... She was a teacher and she was not going allowed a

single dwelling in the countryside. Integration could be achieved.

Nowadays there is a presumption against of element in the

countryside and I am saying some sites are good sites. I want to open

up possibilities for some young people in Australia at this time who

have emigrated for work I want them to come home and live where they are

from. There was an SDLP amendment and you backed it. Is there a way

forward that everyone can agree on? There is. We were pleased to accept

the amendment. We put on the motion but we were happy to accept the

amendment. In the spirit of things today, we knew it was more likely to

achieve maximum consensus. We want to open up greater opportunities for

people to build in the countryside. Thank you very much. The culture

minister reported back to the assembly on recent meetings with the

ministerial Council today and plans to extend the island's canal

network. Planning approval has now been

received regarding the project to reopen the canal. Does the Minister

have a definite time frame for that to happen?

I thank him for his ongoing interest. As I have stated

previously, given the fact that this is a very significant project for

both governments, a certain timeline has to be considered which is based

upon the availability of funding. There are certainly options around

funding availability... It has dictated the timeline. For example,

a single design and construction contract can take up to two years.

Three or four smaller contracts spread over a period of three to

five years is an option as well as a large number of small contracts of

over a period of six to eight years. Looking at strategic direction for

waterways and the need to explore and optimise opportunities to earn

income... I also note and welcome the adoption of three new

publications. Does she believe that those initiatives have been

successful in terms of uptake as far as the number of users on the canal

is concerned? What effect has that had in 2013 on the increased

earnings? Thank you. I think him for his question -- I thank him for his

question. It has been very significant work, and I want to use

this opportunity to congratulate the partners as well. The waterways

Ireland does not have enough money, like many of our bodies, it does not

have enough money to meet the things it wants to do. But one thing about

these publications, it reflected the opportunities for people who live

and work on the waterways to make income. That is to be welcomed. I

would like to see that developed to ensure that not only is it

maintained but that they have additional earnings and additional

employment opportunities for the years ahead. Party leaders met again

this afternoon to discuss draft seven of the Richard Haass

proposals. One of the leaders ventured out to talk to the press

afterwards. He was heartened by the meeting. Another very useful

meeting. Two hours of intense discussions. I am heartened. We are

all coming from different positions. We all have different political

pressures on us and we have different needs. But I feel we fully

recognise the gaps are there. We recognise the difficulties. There is

the space for us to get a bridge over the difficulties, I have no

doubt. If I did not believe they have the will to do a deal and I

would not be wasting time. I believe I have trust and confidence in other

political leaders and I believe that we can do a deal. We are here as the

SDLP looking quite simply to make progress on the stuff that was

broadly agreed in the Richard Haass progress. A lot was agreed there. We

want to see the legislation moving, or at least the beginnings laid. We

want to see resolution. The SDLP leader. Sam McBride has rejoined me.

An optimistic note. It is interesting that nobody else was

prepared to come out and talk to us. Martin McGuinness obviously came out

and did a lot of talking last week and that did not advance the process

even though it was interesting for journalists and people trying to

work out what is going on behind the scenes. I think Alistair MacDonald

was very optimistic but the still be have been relentlessly optimistic

throughout the entire process and it has not got us very far. At various

points, other people have also suggested we on the cost of

something. I do not think there is massive belief that prior to an

election there would be a breakthrough -- other people have

suggested we are on the cusp of something. No one is suggesting

there were about to change their position. It seems the process is

beginning to take shape. Next week's talks will be expanded to a

party leader plus another colleague plus a note taker. Potentially 15

people in the room next Tuesday afternoon. Depending on how you look

at it, that is either good or bad. I am not sure it will increase the

chances of consensus. The parties will be reluctant, particularly

Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness, they will be reluctant

to admit it has failed. It will probably drag on. I do not think

there is any real suggestion that on the key issues that are dividing the

parties that they are prepared to compromise this close to an

election. Martin McGuinness has said in the past, we are not getting into

when negotiating process and this will be kept at leaders level. Now

it is being extended. Alistair MacDonald today knows, is

interestingly used the term negotiations -- Alasdair McDonnell

today used the term negotiations. It may have is been significant. It may

have been a slip of the tongue. Who knows. It begs the question of after

months of going through these issues, why would they suddenly now

without the outside help of Dr Richard Haass be able to bridge the

gap that Alasdair McDonnell says still exists? What is your view on

the involvement of the two governments and the Americans?

Alasdair McDonnell would say that the Americans are determined it

should we pushed forward. It is very counter-productive for Martin

McGuinness and other people to quietly suggest that the Americans

are upping the anti-on this issue and might not invite our leaders out

to Washington for St Patrick's Day. I do not think that outside pressure

will cause great concern. There will be a little bit of embarrassment,

but it is not going to win them votes and that is what they are

thinking about at this point. The other big story of the week, of the

fortnight really, the interview with Ian Paisley. Is it done and dusted?

Can the DP move onto the next stage of politics in Northern Ireland --

VDU P. It is certainly not done and dusted. What came out last night and

the massive audience that saw it, I just do not think it will be raised

from people 's memories for quite some time. It has blown apart the

idea of something that was united behind the scenes. But the reaction

has been really pretty negative towards Ian Paisley insofar as there

has been reaction. There is still a son -- a stunned silence. A lot of

sadness. They cannot believe what he has said and how he has said it.

Fascinating situation. Thank you very much for joining us as ever.

That is it that night. Don't forget to join me on Thursday. Until then,

from everyone in the team, good night.