15/10/2013 Stormont Today

Welcome to Stormont Today. Coming up in the next 30 minutes, the National

Crime Agency may not have been introduced in Northern Ireland, but

today it got the backing of the Assembly.

These are problems that are not unique to Northern Ireland.

Indeed, they are international issues that demand an international

response. The NCA offers that response.

The Environment Minister said there'll be no fracking on his

watch, but the Enterprise Minister has a different take. This is, and I

recognise it as such, a novel and controversial issue and therefore,

this matter will be taken to the executive and this will be a matter

for the executive as a whole. I'm joined by the Irish News

journalist Allison Morris, in the studio.

The National Crime Agency was launched a week ago, dubbed the

British FBI, it will takele organised and economic crime, border

policing, child protection and cyber crime. Here, it's only got limited

powers. Sinn Fein and the SDLP blocked moves to give it powers to

recruit agents and carry out operations.

There were call today for the NCA to be moved to Northern Ireland as

quickly as possible. Time has moved on, as has the ability to criminals

to at times seemingly be one step ahead of the law. It's of paramount

importance therefore that every possible resource that the PSNI can

have at that disposal to be one step ahead of the criminals that are

involved in this type of activity. Every one of our chemical weapons

that rerepresent, Mr Speaker, has the right to expect their

representatives to support the work of an agency that's committed to

bringing to justice the evil criminals. The minister will know we

are working with his department and are meeting with the Home Secretary

in relation to our concerns. The concerns are many. It's not just

around some of the broader criminal justice families, such as the CAJ,

who've said, the proposals of the National Crime Agency in effect

insert another Police Service into Northern Ireland, accountable to the

Home Secretary and largely outside of the reach of the local

accountability structures committed to the following - the pat tonner,

in particular the Policing Board. We have a bottom line on this, Mr

Speaker, and the bottom line is, the NCA must be accountable to the

Policing Board. Nothing less will allay the concerns

of the SDLP. I think the whole area's been a test of the devolution

of policing and justice. That test has failed thus far.

We are currently in a situation where the UK agency dealing with the

most serious criminals in not in operation here. A body to set up the

exploitation of child, an agency which will robustly pursue the most

serious criminals, an organisation with links internationally, this is

something I'm proud of. People trafficked into Northern Ireland

from across the globe for sexual exploitation and domestic servitude,

extortion, money lending, robbery, contraband, burglary and

paramilitaries and nearly 4,500 drugs seizures. These are problems

that are not unique to Northern Ireland. Indeed, they are internap

issues that demand an international response.

The NCA offers that response. Working as the Home Office says to

can Equitable the efforts -- sect the efforts of local policing and

neighbourhood policing to action agencies and action overseas to

coordinate the fight against some of the UK's most harmful criminals.

Both parties are hampering back to the old RUC. We know what that

lesson was, the accountability of it. We know what it meant and in a

way they've pointed out what is at the base of this discussion today

that on accountability has been saying the experience in the Spas

that it will lead to corruption. But they did in the end set up the Good

Friday Agreement to St Andrews and indeed to Hillsborough and to the

devolution of policing and justice. It's not surprise to me that those

who're cronies of Slab Murphy naturally take a stance to disrupt

and thwart the NACs. It's a disappointment to me that those on

the national side of the community who've stood on the side of law and

order do make a choice, that it's more important to dance on the Head

of That pin than it is to fight organised crime.

I welcome the fact we have had this debate. I work welcome the fact

there's been finger pointing across the chime before. There is a lot of

agreement about ensuring we have the best possible methods of fighting

crime with fullest possible accountability to recognise our

specific architecture around policing matters here and that is a

significant step forward for what might otherwise have been a very

devisive debate. The Justice Minister speaking about

the NCA. The motion recognising the concerns of the Chief Constable was

passed in the Assembly. With me in the studio is Allison Morris from

the Irish News. Welcome to the programme. Thank you very much for

joining us. The issues being dealt with by the NCA involve, as we know,

international crime, which doesn't respect country's borders. The fear

on the part of unionists is that we are going to be left vulnerable if

it doesn't operate here. Might they have a point? The kind of crime the

NCA was put in place to tackle doesn't respect borders. We have

cyber crime also which wouldn't have been an issue ten years ago. There

is an international response needed to those types of crimes such as

drug trafficking which we know involves lots of cross border crime

from different countries and the PSNI wouldn't be in a position to

deal with that solely on their own. They have a point in a way. I don't

think the parties are arguing there is a need for an international

police intervention to help bolster up the PSNI. What they are in

arguments over is how that police force wilbe monitored when it's

working within Northern Ireland. So it's a question of accountability?

It is, yes. Does the critical position in all of this really rest

with the Home Secretary in London, Theresa May? Does she hold the key,

do you think? She could in that she could I suppose in some way change

the legislation in that it could be accountable in some way that it

would fall under the Chief Constable's power, therefore it

would be accountable to the police board. It operates in England and

Wales fine without intervention from say the Welsh Assembly. There will

be no accountability there, but the problem is, Northern Ireland is in a

unique position. It comes to policing, there'll be agents in the

north and in the past, the legacy of what's happened when we've had MI5

and Special Branch, that still stings, especially in the

nationalist community, where you are seeing a divide, a nationalist

divide on the NCA. We saw the Justice Minister and the Home

Secretary called upon to introduce aMEPPedments to make the NCA

accountable to the police board here. Is that a softening do you

think to their position? They are aware they are going to have to be

accountable at some time. They are conscious they'll have to be

agreeable. The NCA has said they'd meet with the Policing Board

regularly. That doesn't mean he has to do anything or has to abide by

the conditions they place on him. He still does have the party operating

as a sole organisation, assisting the PSNI who obviously, we have seen

journalists when we called in mutual assistance officers, they don't have

the facilities to deal with the global crimes so they need the

backup. Unionists have accused nationalists of rhetoric. Is it more

complicated th that? Enit comes to Sinn Fein, yes. When they signed up

to policing, it was sold to the nationalist can commune who remember

the RUC and the problems that went with that. They sold them on that

point that it would always be accountable, that there would be an

ombudsman and Policing Board and that the two bodies would be held to

account and Sinn Fein would be there on the board holding them to

account. Now we have a second police force in the NCA who're going to

come in and operate here. What they haven't said is that they are saying

drugs, people trafficking, that may involve terrorist activity which,

also as we know with regards to drugs and guns, would also involve

the NCA and they haven't said what role they are going to have on that.

Interesting to hear your thoughts. Talk to you later in the programme.

Thank you very much. The First Minister said today

there's no question of him taking any sanction against Edwin Putts

after a judge ruled the minister broke the ministerial code. Peter

Robinson was speaking at the lunch of an exhibition of photographs

about human trafficking and started by telling Mark Devonport why the

Bill making its way through the Assembly in his view is so

important. It's very important and we can give a lead, not just in

terms of the UK but more widely than that, that this would be a Bill that

I think takes a lead in terms of its provisions, first of all in terms of

dealing with traffickers, secondly in relation to the victims and

thirdly in trying to diminish the demapped. That's what a lot of the

issues are about, showing that human exploitation goes to the vanity and

fashion that some people have, young people being exploited within the

trade. Also, the sexual exploitation of people and the images are

striking and I think it raises the profile of the issue at a time where

we are looking for the maximum level of support in the Assembly for the

Bill. Let's move to other topics. Is it fair to say, taking your answers

in Question Time yesterday into account, that you have full

confidence in Edwin Putts despite the recent court judgment? There is

no question of that at all. It's not a question of the judgment. The

judgment, if it was to be carried into our normal practices in

Northern Ireland, would have seen every minister at the executive

table having been in breach of the ministerial code. It's a very wide

interpretation of the ministerial code, one I think the executive is

going to have to look at. Edwin Putts is not the First Minister to

be brought before the courts. I didn't hear when Margaret Ritchie

was before the courts having defy matters. I didn't hear you or

anybody else saying she should be dismissed or punished. This is an

issue where there are arguments around it. I suspect it may well go

to appeal, even appeal because the GB department might find that some

of the ruling has serious implications for devolution itself.

You don't see any reason to take any sanction? I dismiss the issues.

People will try to bring issues of that kind to the fore. This is not

an issue I would take into account in terms of whether the minister

should in any way be sanctioned. It's clear the minister acted in

good faith. The ruling is such that it indicates that the minister, if

he had stopped and banned blood from MSN coming into Northern Ireland

from outside, he would not have had the same kind of ruling. The key

issue in all of this is the ministerial code of that, it's

critical from our point of view, we believe that any major decision, any

controversial decision should be brought to the executive. If every

decision which is cross cutting, which is virtually any spending

decision at all, has to be brought to the executive, and when any

minister falls foul. This doesn't change anything either

way? Those are issues I'll look at at the end of the year but it has no

bearing. Are you concerned about the legal advice that says the clauses,

which were part of your economic pact with David Cameron, might fall

foul of the European convention on human rights, clauses on the

planning bill? The one thing we know is that when you get into the legal

system, you will get any number of views that you want on the issues.

Ultimately the courts will decide if somebody takes that step and brings

it into the courts. The Enterprise Minister was on her

feet at Question Time today, as with the Environment Minister yesterday.

She was asked about the issue of hydraulic fracturing, fracking to

you and me, along with 2 benefits of our booming TV and film industry.

She answered a question about the competitive cycling races coming to

Northern Ireland first. I make no secret of the fact that I hope the

Tour de France does come to Northern Ireland in the near future when they

see how well we are able to host it. As the member will know, and I've

answered his previous topical question in relation to the area I

love and know very well. I have no input into the choice of route. I

think that's something that some people got a little excited about,

but they shouldn't have, because the route was picked by the

professionals, by the people who're planning the route. They had very

stringent reasons for why they picked different routes,

particularly in relation to time trials and what have you, and

therefore we had no impact at all in relation to where the route should

go. I wanted to put that on the record to you today because

otherwise it would have been coming to county Fermanagh, lets's be

honest. Would the minister give us a brief outline of the process

required to a granted licence for hydraulic fracturing, or the process

just outlined. If the landowners' consent is required for the use of

the land... In Northern Ireland, holders of petroleum licences need

to obtain the permission of the landowners beneath whose land they

wish to drill. The landowners permission is asked for. If it's

granted, then that can take place. At present, as I understand it, from

the company in counter Fermanagh, they expect to apply to drill a deep

borehole to retrieve rock core for analysis. They haven't applied to

the department to drill for that hole as yet. What they want to do is

take out some of the shale to have a look at it. As yet, that

application's not taken place. The US is managed to bring down the

price of energy in a dramatic way because of shale gas.

They are able now to bring manufacturing back from China and

other places across the world. I think we need to take note of that.

There's no doubt about it. I listened to the Environment Minister

during his Question Time saying that the application wouldn't happen on

his watch. I think that was his phrase that he used. I think he

needs to reflect on the fact that this is, and I recognise it as such,

a novel and controversial issue. Therefore, this matter will be taken

to the executive and this will be a matter for the executive sad a whole

to decide on, not just from my part, but from his part and every other

minister in the Northern Ireland Executive will have to take this mat

tore the executive for a decision. That's something that I've known for

some considerable time. But it's something that's been really

underlined for me by the judgment last Friday of Mr Justice Tracey

when he said the issues need to be taken to the executive. Therefore,

the decision in relation to hydraulic fracturing, no matter what

each individual minister may think about it, the decision needs to be

taken by the Northern Ireland Executive. The game of thrones has

brought a lot of fume to Northern Ireland. Are there any tourist

opportunities that have come from the decision of game of thrones to

shoot here? Absolutely. I hadn't realised how

internationally thought of the Game of Thrones was, nil was in Brazil

talking about tourism opportunities, then I mentioned the fact that in

June, the Tourist Board, along with Northern Ireland screen were

bringing the Game of Thrones to Belfast, all of a sudden everybody

lit up because they were very much aware of the Game of Thrones on HBO.

That exhibition took place in June and we are also now developing a

tourism trail for the Game of Thrones, so people can see where

they are all filmed. As well ass Game of Thrones, there are many

other sets across Northern Ireland which can benefit from tourism

visits as well, I'm thinking particularly, as you would expect me

to, of Blandings, filmed in counter Fermanagh. Already, it's been

referred to as Northern Ireland's high Claire which of course is the

set of Downton. So we are very pleased there are all of these

tourism opportunities, as well as the business opportunities from the

creative industries. Arlene Foster.

The Finance Minister also faced questions. It was serious stuff as

he was asked about the future of the Ulster Bank, whether the help to buy

a mortgage scheme would be extended to Northern Ireland and how big an

influence the banks is having north of the border...

?3.5 billion. They have been, as the member will be aware, selling assets

off as they become viable to sell them off. One thing they stressed to

me, and we were all concerned about NAMA - we wanted to ensure that the

fears we had, there could NAMA - we wanted to ensure that the

point out that not only has there been a fire sale, but in order to

lend people money, not only have we put ?140,000 into the economy, which

has gone forward, we have some significant commercial property in

the centre of Belfast as well. The future of Ulster is something we are

closely monitoring, not least because of its significant size in

Northern Ireland. It is our biggest lending bank in Northern Ireland,

despite its problems and the issues it currently has and is still

dealing with. It has a 30% plus share of the market in Northern

Ireland because it's the only bank that we have that is national Lil

owned at UK level. It's frequently the only one that reveals various

lending national Nish 'tils. Ulster Bank for all the difficulties it

faces and continues to face, it's obviously something we are concerned

about, its future. We want to see it operating in Northern Ireland as a

property functioning bank. It's incredibly critical to our economy

that the bank does function properly and is able to get loans out to

businesses so they can start to grow and employ people in Northern

Ireland. The help to buy mortgage guarantee

scheme is now rolled out in the UK and has been taken up by a few of

the big high street banks. The likes of RBS, although not the Ulster

Barnett, though I understand they are considering it - - Ulster Bank.

Halifax as well who lend in Northern Ireland, and recently Barclays have

joined the scheme. Nationwide are the only big mortgage

lender not now part of the help to buy mortgage guarantee scheme.

It is an attractive scheme in that the Government will guarantee up to

15% of a property, meaning that only 5% of a mortgage deposit is required

from those who might want to get on to the property ladder. I think this

scheme, on top of the highly successive and well-funded

co-attorneyship scheme, does have potential that a system of recovery

of the housing market. If there is a scheme which has the potential to

help, people get on to the housing market, it would be a shame if that

scheme, which is operating, functioning already, in mainland

Great Britain, is not operating in Northern Ireland because local banks

aren't joining it. Can I ask the minister what will he do to prevent

further interventions and major capital protests to create jobs in

our local economy? There was a major party political

intervention in the form of the members colleague, the member for

Belfast, Mr Kelly, which did more damage to the peace centre in that

project going forward than anything else nub else did. Before the member

wishes to criticise others, perhaps he should look at the actions of

some of his open colleagues in that respect.

Earlier this month, the performance of two of Northern Ireland's prisons

with was called into question. A criminal justice inspection made a

report of 150 recommendations for improvements at the women's prison

and young offenders centre in Belfast. There were criticisms of

the approach to tackling drugs and the excess of strip searching of

women prisoners. The findings were brought before the chamber today in

a Sinn Fein motion calling on the Justice Minister to ensure the

prison reform programme moves forward. The 2010 review of the

Prison Service made reference to the fact that women and young adults are

poorly served by the prison system which has created primarily to serve

the needs of adult men. This particular prison is a poor prison

for women. Women prisoners form a small proportion of prisoners. Many

have mental health problems. Many have dependent children and are

often the sole careers and many problems emanate as a result of that

for the children and for the women. Women are much less likely to

reoffend when compared with men, only 20% are re-convicted.

There are a number of things that have been happening which cause me

concern and my party. That is the breakdown in the relaitionzship

between the management and the staff associations the minister refers to

as being important at taking forward a changed programme. I spoke with

the chairman of the Prison Officers' Association this morning. I'll not

repeat some of the rang wadge, by need toless, it was evident to me

that that relationship between the staff associations and the prison

management is non-existent -- language.

There was a feeling by some of the staff that they are getting the

wrong end of the stick in this and they are getting a lot of the

criticism that's unjustified to them. The Chief Inspector in his

report used this paragraph; "overall, this is a disappointing

inspection, in particular because women continue to be held in a

predominantly male prison which was having a significant and intractable

impact upon outcomes and experience. Women were reasonably well cared for

but they were inevitably marginalise and restricted in access to

facilities and service. There was also evidence of intimidation from

male prisoners from time to time. " Only, and I emphasise this point,

only the long promise closure and replacement of the prison would

resolve the problems we see. We mustn't forget this is a reform

agenda put in place by the minister that has delivered sentence plans

for all offenders. Now the plans are in place for everyone, it's quite

right that we look at the further improvements that can be made. What

we mustn't lose sight of is the fact that we have come from a situation

where there were no plans for offenders at all. Mr Speaker, it's

clear that we also need to continue to develop unknow straitive

approaches to deal with women prisoners whose needs are very

different from their male counterparts. Those involved in the

delivery of activities were frustrated at the lack of resources

and activities in the youth offenders centre. There was no

planned approach for activities. Everything was dis-I didn't

isjointed which resulted in young people's disinterest in taking up

activities. This has been confirmed in the report.

in thereport. report.

S problem is the cancellation of things at the last minute. The

Government told us themselves that if the prison is down five or six

staff, the prison has problems. That will be a major impact on the

educational activities. The overall rating of Ash House was heavily

influenced by the YOC. The physical conditions were good

and clean. I certainly agree and have done for

a long time, that the co-lowcation of female offenders is far from the

ideal -- colocation. Many people inside and outside Government are

working to make changes realities. I'm greatly encouraged by the work

being done to reform our prisons. As with any major reform programme, the

challenge is to see the work through to April 2015 and to ensure the

progress that's being made to date continues.

The Justice Minister who had a busy day today. Allison Morris is with me

again. We saw the First Minister in the programme earlier continuing to

support the Health Minister, Edwin Putts. We shouldn't be surprised at

that? No, he obviously still has the support of his leader. He was

advised by his own advisers on the situation of giving blood in the

High Court. Peter Robinson has said that. We have a minister totally

unaccountable to someone. Decisions that are going against public

opinion and equality practices and regardless of that, he seems to be

able to get away with it. Thank you very much.

That is it from all of us. Join me for The View on Thursday night.

Thanks for watching. Bye.