15/11/2011 Stormont Today

Hello and welcome to Stormont Today. Prison reform was yesterday's

debate, but it's today's news as the First Minister threatens to

bring down the assembly. It will not happen on my watch, let's make

it very clear up. This is a matter which, if they attempt to bring it,

I will resign and I will take this matter to the electorate.

And has the quality of debate reached rock bottom in the chamber?

I have listened to some rubbish in this house in my day, and I have to

say that this morning probably comes close to beating it all.

And joining me throughout the programme, Frances McCandless, the

head of the Charity Commission. There has been plenty of criticism

of the assembly for a lack of legislation since the election in

May, but one piece of legislation that was passed during the previous

mandate is now bearing fruit - the creation of a Charity commission.

With me is its Chief Executive, Frances McCandless. We certainly

had many years of calling for an Charity Commission, what difference

t think you have made? We think now we are here the public have

somewhere to go if they have concerns about a charity or want to

find out who is or is not a charity. Eventually we will have a register

of all of the charity is who, under law, qualify as being a charity. If

you are approached for money or time or a donation or whatever and

you want to find out if the organisation is bona fide, you can

check on line. All that work is getting up and under way. There is

a problem with the registering, what is the delay? We have had a

delay with the legislation. When a decision is made, that will go back

through the assembly and we will begin registering the organisations

that want to be charities. We will have a clean register and build it

up from scratch, in the meantime we are getting on with work and have

put a temporary piece of legislation in place. All

organisations that were given a charity number for tax purposes are

now deemed to be charities and all under our jurisdiction so

regulation is up and running. When we get legislation in place anyone

can go on to hour website and check that list and find out if the

organisation currently is or is not deemed a charity. Had he been able

to take action so far? We had a number of complaints. Some more

serious than others. The ones we have managed to close are the ones

we were able to take quick and easy action. For example, if an

organisation is doing something or not doing something, not thought

malevolent reasons but from oversight will they did not realise

what they were supposed to be doing, such as not publishing accounts, we

are able to go to them, give advice about had to put it right and not

use stronger powers than that to fix a situation. Now they are more

serious situations than that. can talk about those later.

Everyone wanted to talk about salmon today, it featured on the

canteen menu and also on the question time menu served up to the

culture minister. More on that in a moment, but we start with social

development and welfare reform coming from Westminster. One of the

key elements of welfare reform will be the transition towards universal

credit and where there are undoubted benefits in one single

payment, there are also risks involved with one single allowance.

I wonder if the minister has any plans of how he may mitigate these

risks, which will see people receive all their benefits in one

go as the title suggests and therefore could lead to further

debt and poverty, particularly given the lack of financial

capability strategy here? I was discussing the issue of financial

capability earlier on this morning. It is something that is not

forgotten. The change to a single payment will bring change, no doubt

about that. I think that part of the thinking that is behind this is

to actually increase responsibility, financial responsibility, and that

is a good thing in itself to teach people how to manage money. On the

other hand, there are particularly vulnerable people, and I am sure we

can all think of vulnerable sectors where the arrival of a single

payment may lead to many not being used in a way it was intended,

again a single payment means it is all coming to one person in the

family and quite often enough family, I know in my case my wife

looks after all of the finances, and in a lot of homes are a thing

that happens. Who the payment is made to, all of these are a cause

for concern. Moving on to alcohol controls and

the cocktail lifestyle is not something the minister is normally

associated with, but perhaps some other members of. I thank the

Minister for his answer. I find myself somewhat edgy making a

supplementary. Would the minister also agree that the fight against

the misuse, if that is the right word, of alcohol should also take

into account what are called cocktail jugs which can contain

anything between a litre and 1.5 litres of generally none describe

spirits which are sold in family type restaurants and nightclubs?

The person who buys it has no indication of the amount of Algol

contained and the effects of drinking it, I am told, are extreme.

I don't know whether the member has a greater expertise in this field

than I could possibly have. The issue of minimum pricing is simply

one aspect of this, the other aspect is clearly around the

promotion of, the sort of promotion of cheap alcohol in night clubs and

so on. This type of thing is clearly irresponsible.

Irresponsibility is the other problem that we do have. I think,

in terms of looking at the overall package of measures that will come

forward, that sort of thing should be taken into consideration. Salmon

stocks are under pressure and members wanted to know how the

culture minister would protect them. I wondered, could you detail for us

why the wild Atlantic salmon stocks are in such a state of decline?

There are a few reasons for it. The scientific evidence so far would

indicate that the decline in numbers of salmon, particularly

returning to our rivers, is consistent with international

evidence which points out that things like Habitat migration,

pollution and balancing predator prey relationships, ecosystems and

recreational and commercial exploitation. There are concerns,

also, on their own stocks regarding the survival rate during the Marine

phase of the salmon going back into the rivers. It is the focus of

research which aims to better understand the reasons I have

outlined. In regard to the continuing use of the net south,

the drift-net which are in use, particularly on the County Antrim

coast, why is it that there has been success by up -- successful

buyout everywhere else, there seems to be rabid of this box by the

existence of the drift-net on the north coast? When is the Minister

going to take action? I thank them member for the supplementary. As I

pointed out to John Dobson, the issue in 2001 was that there were

55 commercial fishermen, there are now sick speak. What I would say to

the member and any other member, if he has any specific information and

that was outside of the conditions of the licence that was given, I

would expect the member to bring that forward so I can pass that on

because these licences are regulated. If there is any sign of

abuse or misuse, it is important to bring the information forward.

Frances we have had examples where many has been donated to charity

which has then been spent on something else, how can the

commission and step in in that situation so that people can feel

confident that the money they are donating goes to the place it

should be? I can't comment on that example not having seen the details,

but in general, the Commission has powers to ask a charity to give

that information and if it is not forthcoming, demand it. We can look

at their accounts, see where resources are going and check that

they are being put to charitable purposes. The special thing about

charity is that it attacks -- attracts tax concessions. The

reason it is regulated is to make sure that the resources which are

charitable are going in the same direction. So a charity must use

its resources for a charitable purpose and we can ensure that they

Jim Allister really put the cat among the pigeons yesterday when he

asked David Ford about possible changes to prison emblems and

titles. In fact, it prompted fury from the DUP with the First

Minister threatening an assembly election. Here's what he told Mark

Devenport. A I have had a series of meetings

with the prism of the Duke. I have seen their report, there was no

mention in any meeting I have had with them nor any mention in the

report that there would be any change to either been named all the

batch, so this came completely out of the blue. David Ford has never

mentioned it to me so let's be very clear, he is badly advised if he

thinks that this is something that can be done in an operational

manner. The whole system that we built up, he might have got off

with it on -- under the Belfast Agreement, but after St Andrew's he

cannot get away with it because the system was set up to make sure any

controversial matter would be put in the executive. I don't think

anyone would question this is a controversial matter. It will not

happen on my watch, let's make it very clear. If they attempt to

bring this, I will resign and take this matter to the electorate and

they will have their say. So you will blockade under any

circumstance? It will be blocked. It is simply not on the agenda. If

David Ward applies this to his present reform, something that is

an inescapable part, then he will damage his whole project. If he

does not want that to go down the toilet in is to reconsider. What

would you say to those that say that when the police service has

reform there was a change of emblem, a change of bad patch and uniform

and therefore it is a natural part of anywhere formation of the Prison

Service. By a posted them as I would oppose it now. They were

wrong then just as this is wrong now. I think Peter needs to calm

down. A whole issue of prison reform is of vital importance. That

is one of the reasons why Anne and her team were involved in looking

at why the presence this damp and coming forward with important

proposals that will fundamentally change the whole system of present

and how we administrator presence in the future. So, let's be

sensible about this. Let's be very calm about how we deal with it. I

think they should be no knee-jerk reactions. Do you think a major

change? I support the proposals that have been put forward by Anne

and her team. I think they understand that there is a problem

within the service and that the Prison Service has to be a service

that is accepting of everyone. Of all of the cultural and, you know,

political aspirations of the community. It is to be

representative and I think that as we go forward we have to deal with

proposals in a very sober, calm and sensible way without any joking.

Everybody knows that there has to be fundamental change and there is

no stopping at. I think all of us Have the committee's soured badly

in their relationship. Could the committee be failing in their

material? Here is a weekly look at the work of the committees. We were

copied in with regards to Letters to the Speaker and leeks on

documents. The original letter to the first minister. That was the

last piece. The last piece of correspondence. The first and

Deputy First Minister wrote to the Speaker to stay there increasing

concern about classified documents coming to the public domain. And

they go on to refer to the needs for a climate of trust to allow

productive business relationships to flourish. And also they refer

took the leak as not assisting committees and assisting their

statutory duties in the development of their policies. I had let this

go to a certain extent, been given the tone of the letter, and the 10

months it took to get access to the documents to which they are

referring, that they were leaked, that did not help us in getting a

climate of trust or fulfilling a statutory role. That is why I ask,

because it has been pretty pointed from the committee and I don't

think they included the people who had it. In fairness, the speakers

responses robust. Three weeks passed and a lot of other people

could have leaked it. There is a danger of conflating two issues. I

would very much support due if the first and deputy first minister say

they need to have good working relationships, maybe this is an

opportunity to write back and say that one way we could improve this

is by speeding up the delivery of information. Assuming this goes

well and we recruit new officers, I predict he will have tens of

thousands of applications. Because obviously there are very few

opportunities I can think of, maybe next building work on the South

Down, because there are opportunities, but can we have an

assurance that that recruitment exercise will be done entirely on

merit rather than positive discrimination. You can have an

insurance that it will be done on merit. There is no proposal on any

other way and I think the minister has been clear on that. A standard

recruitment exercise? In will be a standard recruitment exercise

following best-practice of the Civil Service. Obviously the basis

of this is to reinvigorate the Prison Service in get new staffing,

but also savings in the long term. What is the break-even point? How

many staff do you need to leave for this to become cost neutral?

Ideally, we need 360 to leave it to allow us to start for the

recruitment process and refresh the organisation. Over the 10 years of

the business case we estimate the scheme will save us �180 million,

so in terms of investment it will cost �60 million and it is good

value for money for the taxpayer. We are looking at around 360 as the

break-even point. That committee obviously sat before yesterday's

controversy unfolded. Is there some sort of "chill factor" stopping

young protestants going to university here? The DUP and the

TUV think so and want the Higher Education Minister to do something

about it. An attempt by the Alliance Party to widen the scope

of the debate, and get the Minister to address barriers to higher

education in general, failed to win support. More on that in a moment,

but first here's a taste of the debate. In terms of all enrolments,

students that are domiciled in Northern Ireland, two and a half

1,000 of them attended universities in Liverpool a loan. And nearly

1,500 attend universities in the Glasgow region alone. Of course,

there are multiplicity is attending other universities, Dundee,

Newcastle, Edinburgh, Aberdeen. And throughout Wales and the north-east

of England but when you have 4,000 students just in those two main

urban conurbations of England and Scotland alone, we begin to see the

scale of students leaving Northern Ireland. I have to say this morning

comes close to beating all the rubbish I have ever heard. Just

listening to Tom saying there was no evidence that the Department of

Employment and learning had taken steps to counteract this so-called

disparity yet no matter where we live today there is no evidence of

the disparity of a cold house for Catholics or a chill factor for

Protestants, even in the University of Ulster or Queen's University.

The reality is that there are many complex and diverse reasons for

students going to university of their choice. As a Unionist I think

it is could that students actively partake in university through the

United Kingdom. I would like to see them go and I would like to see

them come back. He is wrong for people to underline the religious

divide in the education sector. This can only have a damaging

effects on the higher education sector. The message we must send

out is that we are focused on having a world-class education

training system in Northern Ireland that is open and accessible and

this is critical if we are to have world-class economy is that, like

we all deserve. Way you disappointed it did not come

forward? We did not do anything to address the disparity amongst the

Protestant students in Northern Ireland and the figures simply do

not support that. There is a more fundamental issue which is the lack

of Protestant working-class males a university, and in terms of

educational under-achievement, that is a fundamental issue that the

assembly needs to address and address with executive action. We

need a Child poverty Action Plan and childcare strategy and see the

Minister of Education bring forward an early years education strategy

to tackle this at its root. So you were not impressed by the quality

of debate and it fell on predictable lines. Unfortunately, I

would agree with Michelle left. It was a missed opportunity to get

into the detail causes of the problem of a lack of representation

of Protestant males. How we offer support and insure that is open to

everyone who can benefit. It is all about statistics, and one in five

Catholics is likely to go to university compared to one in 10

Protestants, so it's to be expected there would be fewer Protestants at

universities then. The wider population of the age group is

reflected at university but there is a particularly persistent

problem of working-class Protestant males gaining access to university

and achieving at post primary level. That has been well-documented in

the past and unfortunately the executive is still failing Tabard

joined-up approach to tackling the problem. Do you think it will be

put on the long finger? I will be using the committee to commit to

Child poverty Action Plan. And my colleagues in the education

committee will raise the issue as well. While you're here, I hope

that the facial look of the changes we see our for charity reasons.

Strictly charitable purposes, fund- raising for Men's Cancer awareness

and you'll be glad it will be gone by the end of November. Quite a few

cropping up around the chamber. We are trying our best. With rising

fuel prices and winter weather just around the corner fuel poverty is

becoming increasingly common. Eight government departments are getting

together to see what the assembly can do to help those struggling to

pay the bills. Unfortunately there's seems little chance of any

extra money, but Alex Maskey told me it's more than a talking shop.

You can have the danger of falling into decline, but we hope that is

not the case. We hope they are issues with payments that people

are entitled to a man but we argue for those to be extended and

increased. But that is only a short-term measure and there are

other issues which are more long- term, but I can assure the

listeners and viewers that this initiative taken by ourselves is to

ensure joined-up government and scrutiny of how government delivers.

We have come into this with the mandate and the big focus is the

need to deliver for people out there. Sure this not have been done

in September when you first came back so the measures could be going

to people with winter just a few weeks away? We are obviously

putting a spotlight on the issue. Some of the measures flowing from

the discussion, some of them are under way. And we are very aware

that there will be no quick fix. And some of them are longer term

work which we are determined to see through. The finance minister,

Sandie Wilson has talked tough to the big retailers like Tesco and

Ikea. Where is the strong message out to the power companies whose

profits are running to over 30 %? agree with Ian and I am not

speaking for him because it is made up of all the ministers and

different parties. The committee could send out a message. We have

done and we have been clear that it is not acceptable that so many of

us up unable to heat our homes, so almost like a monopoly of one fuel

source, so we have to look for alternative sources as we move into

the future. We have made it clear that a lot of these energy

providers should be looking at how they make a contribution because

everybody here is suffering. We've already heard from the First

Minister about prison reform, but the TUV leader, Jim Allister, who

unearthed the controversy in the chamber last night, has gone a step

further, as our political correspondent Martina Purdy told me

earlier. He has tabled a motion of no confidence in the justice

minister, and to get that past he would need cross-community support

and there is no chance of getting that. But if he can try and get

members of the DUP and other Unionists to sign ahead of his

annual conference this weekend. are one day closer to the long

awaited programme for government. That is right. We have heard it

will be a marathon late-night session tomorrow, starting around

7pm. That programme for government has been much awaited and drafts

have been bouncing around various departments and one leaked in

September talk about jobs and investment being a priority. As

well as finishing the programme for government may have to finish the

investment strategy and there will be changes to that in light of the

A five roads project been cancelled. If they can get that together as

expected then the assembly is going to meet on Thursday to discuss it

and so far we have had no indication that that meeting is

going away and it is scheduled for Thursday. Fuel poverty, will be

executive Dick we heard about that, so will the executive committee do

anything? There was the prospective fund to direct money to direct

money to needy families and develop Minister could bring forward a

paper, and we understand it has not been put forward but it is only an

issue for the government and it is one they will be looking at.

Compared to some of the other commission since the Good Friday

agreement you do have a slightly different role. We are a regulator

who have been brought in to do a specific task which is to list the

charities and monitor them to make sure they are acting properly so we

can prop up confidence and so the charities can get on with their

work. We have a targeted at specific job but has been

successful across the political spectrum but also by the charities

themselves. They are very happy to have scrutiny to prove the work

they are doing. Thank you for joining us. That's it from Stormont