18/09/2012 Stormont Today

Hello and welcome to Stormont Today. Coming up in the next 30 minutes:

Parading in is back at the top of the political agenda MLAs discussed

how to resolve the issue of contentious marches. Never mind

hugging a hoodie, what about hugging a lawyer? Deputy Speaker I

fear he will make me hug a lawyer. Is the Ulster Covenant the birth

certificate of Northern Ireland? The historiam Jonathan Bardon gives

us his verdict. Parading was a hot topic for politicians today.

Outside the Chamber, earlier in the day, parties met the Parades'

Commission to voice concerns over an Ulster Covenant march next week.

Inside the Chamber, parading was the subject of a motion brought to

the floor by Sinn Fein. It called on the loyal orders to become

involved in direct dialogue with residents' groups. In the handful

of contentious parades, there are only a handful, that the cost last

year was over �6 million. That's �6 million could be used in other

policing issues and with community safety right across all of our

community. The bigger cost of them was that they are toxic to policing.

It's hard to quantify it, but I would say that you could gauge that

policing has been slowed up five, six, seven years because of these

parades and the image that they give. I've heard, over the last few

days, a number of other loyalists and unionists and others talking

about mutual respect. Who can disagree with that term, of course

there has to be mutual respect. Surely, mutual respect comes from

mutual conversation and from that dialogue, direct dialogue, between

two people or two groups. Is it too much to ask for that the loil

orders get involved in that? There are, I understand, very deliberate

attempts ongoing behind-the-scenes to ensure that we will have a

positive resolution to this entire process and situation. I welcome

that. I, along with my party leader and other colleaguesed in the

Ulster Unionist Party, met with the four main church leaders recently.

Again, a positive meeting. Something that can be built on. I

do stress and reiterate, Mr Speaker, that this cannot all be from the

one side. Our society relies on an upholding of the rule of law. Where

it is broken the consequences of violence are clear for everyone to

see. We need people to demonstrate mature leadership and dialogue with

others if possible. I would call on all leaders to defuse tension

rather than to fan the flames of frustration and hate at this

difficult time. You see, I don't get it. I don't comprehend why the

movement of Orange feet along public roads doesn't incur the

wrath, the hatred of people, primarily concerned with a minimal

disruption for as little as 10 minutes, which turns into an all-

day affair. Contrived by a bunch of law Breakers, provoking violence,

directing hatred and displaying intoleration, which is etched on

their faces. If we go to Dunloy and the issue of parading. For 11 years,

no parade. No parade to allow the loyal, lodge in Dunloy, made up of

18, 19 people, most of them senior citizens, led by an all Ireland

Championship band, nothing that can in anyway be described as

distasteful. Nothing that anyway can be described as in anyway

offensive. No way could be aligned to any illegal organisation. What

have republicans done in the village, they have under the

leadership of Sinn Fein said, no parade. Unfortunate, because of the

failure of the two big parties in dealing with community division and

their efforts in Stokeing up sectarian tension, particularly

around election time, plays to the gallery. We only - I listened to

radio interviews where I heard so- called community activists saying

they wanted more money. That the violence was around. There was not

enough funding in some of these areas. That was a failure of their

political representatives to deliver for their own constituency.

Dolores Kelly of the SDLP. That Sinn Fein motion calling for

dialogue between residents and loyal orders was rejected by MLAs.

They voted for an Ulster unionist admendment which praised the loyal

orders and call on all those in positions of leadership to ensure a

positive outcome from future parades. From the Prison Service

redundancy scheme to the implementation of fully body

scanners in prisons, some of the issues raised in questions to the

Justice Minister, David Forde. had to answer this question

re'lawyer friendly' questions from Alban Maginness. I think an

alternative dispute resolution system here would be exceptionally

helpful. Has the minister any plans to extend training in alternative

resolution to lawyers? I fear he will make me hug a lawyer, which

could be bad news. The reality of course is that the training of

lawyers is not my responsibility. There is training done within the

two professions, the two branches of the profession and at

institutions of higher education. I certainly think it is the case,

indeed I have been discussing, just last week, with representatives of

barristers, the issue in many cases alternative dispute resolution may

benefit with the input of those with a legal background. There is

clearly scope for his professional colleagues to engage in ADR. I

trust many of them will take the training courses vain to them.

would ask the Minister if he supports the introduction of

tougher sentences for those who attack the elderly. If so, what

plans has he put in place to do just that? The several answer is, I

support the use of appropriate sentences to deal with all crimes

whatever range they come from and to recognise the reality of the

limited amount of crime which is directed against older people, but

the seriousness of that which does occur. A total of 544 members of

staff applied for the voluntary early retirement scheme. 159 staff

have been released to date. A further 139 had been told they

would be allowed to leave when it is operationally possible for them

to do so. All other applications remain under consideration. As the

Minister outlined the redundancy was popular and oversubscribed. 139

members of staff wish to grks but haven't been able to go.

Operational considerations are at the forefront. Would the Minister

appreciate that the inability of those people being able to leave is

having an affect on their morale. appreciate there are moral concerns

among those who wish to leave. He should bear in mind the specific

issue, if we were to give people advance notice that we would lose

the compensation in lieu of notice, whilst it is unfortunate we cannot

give people the full details we cannot to ensure they get the

maximum benefit. As I announced I made a commitment that the Prison

Service would pilot and evaluate the use of two types of full body

imaging scanners. Prison Service officials have 2mm wave scanners,

the first was delivered and installed yesterday. Following the

delivery of staff training it is anticipated that this pilot will

commence on 26th September. A second scan frer a different

supplier is due to be delivered next month and a similar pilot will

commence then. When does he believe that the pilot will be finished? If

successful, when can we imagine the scanners will be placed in the

prison? There are two different parts to what he asked. The simple

question is the duration of the pilot. It is admendment that both

of those will last for three months. They will involve the existing

practice of full body searching alongside the use of the millimetre

wave scanner to see whether the scanner is as effective as the

existing practices in ensuring the security of prisoners and prison

staff. If they are successful it will be planned to put those, that

technology into use in the two prisons at the earliest possible

point. There are serious issues as to whether it is possible to have

adequate protection in what is a category A prison with some of the

most dangerous prisoners in Northern Ireland in custody.

Whether the technology which we are planning for the other two prisons

is adequate will be a key question which would have to be addressed if

millimetre wave was seen to be effective at the other two

institutions. That is why we are seeking the justification,

authorisation for the use of transmission x-rays for there,

because that is seen as a more robust of searching technology that

what is being implemented at the moment in the two pilots. Clearly,

as I said, there has yet been no approval for any use in any UK

prison. Therefore, there is significant issues we need it

address to ensure that we do make sure that we can get the

appropriate technology fully approved. Installing double glazing

in social housing was one of the topics which came up during

questions to the Social Development Minister, McCausland. He was asked

why tenants having their windows replace ready being refused

redecoration grants. The new specification for replacement

double glazing windows, in line with the glass and glazing

federation recommendations allows window replacements from the

outside rather than the inside of the dwelling. As has been the

housing executive practice. Existing windows can be removed and

new windows fitted with minimal damage. This reduces the need for

redecoration grants to be paid. refusal of redecoration grants has

put pressure on residents, many people find that in, after the work

is completed the blinds don't fit. Is there any provision being made

to revise the decision to refuse the grants or help those who have

been adversely affected by this? Well, to make it clear. What I said

was, that there should not normally be a need for a redecoration grant

because there will be no damage to the inner reveal. I don't know

about the member who posed the question. I had windows fitted in

my own home, fitted from the outside. As is the normal practice

right across the glazing sector. In that case, the windows, there was

no need for internal work to be done. Can the Minister detail the

level of consultation which is undertaken by the housing executive

in relation to their tenants before the type of work is undertaken?

have to say, Mr Speaker, I'm not clear what that question means.

When a window's replacement scheme is brought forward, usually, people

are actually clambering to have it done rather than to have it delayed.

I have never come across people yet who turn down new double glazing.

When I came into the Department one of the things I was appalled by was

the fact it was willing to be a piece of work that would require

ten week for the housing executive to complete. That is why we set the

target to have the work completed within the life term of this

Assembly. The Minister has just told the House that there is no

need really for a redecoration grant for replacement windows.

Given the recent experience with Red Sky and others can the Minister

ensure the house that when contractors are not up to the

standard that he tells us that I welcome the question because it

gets to the heart of something else I am concerned about. We need to be

sure that the people fitting windows are good at it. We need to

make sure it is done in a professional way. I'm sure a -- I

have seen a number of contractors' work. Not just one, a number. The

standard fitting windows left a great deal to be desired. In my own

constituency, there was one particular case where you could put

your hand below the window, it was so badly fitted, and that is simply

unacceptable. Therefore, that is why we are looking at a proposal to

have a separate tethering -- tendering process for that

particular work so that you actually have people who have the

specialist skills to fit windows rather than people who may be

general trade men but do not have that skill. I think that additional

decision that we have made and the Executive have made is the right

decision and I look forward to seeing the results.

The Social Development Minister sounding a little bit like a double

glazing salesmen. An historic and significant event, that is how some

MLAs described the signing of the Ulster covenant as the anniversary

was discussed in a unionist motion today. The signing of the covenant

to place not only enough Ulster -- in Ulster but in Dublin, on ships,

in high seas, and at the stokers mess of a Royal Navy ship halfway

up the river somewhere in China. To deny the importance of these events,

whether you agree with them or not, would be churlish. They are

important. They were fundamentally important. They were important to

my family then and in many ways they affect vast numbers of people,

not for fully but emotionally. -- not a thought fully. We approach

the centenaries hopefully, having learnt the lessons of the past.

Ireland was not all Protestant and Unionist or Catholic and

nationalist. The motion itself is interesting insofar as it talks

about the Assembly recognising the covenant being signed as important

in the history of Northern Ireland but there was no Northern Ireland

entity at the time. So in a way, the motion is flawed. Not

withstanding that, our perspective on these things is that we have

discussed this before or, and we are in a decade of centenaries and

we believe that that is important. Rather than having these events

commemorated in a way which would be exclusive, and that is not to

say that we want people to be told how they should celebrate or

commemorate historical events, but what we are suggesting is that in

order to make this a more fruitful decade, and a decade which helps on

the pathway towards reconciliation and a greater understanding among

our communities here, that we would a Nideffer to make sure such events

there are -- such events are commemorated in an clues of way,

and not in a way about re-running history. -- in an inclusive way.

understand it is important to the Unionist community and we respect

it. Unionists must accept that the cause of Irish National at... It

has caused an unnatural and damaging division of Ireland's

people. Unionism does not have to agree with this fact. But they

should try and understand. I can appreciate that not everyone in

this House will see the Ulster covenant in a positive way, in as

positive a way as I would look to celebrate it but I think we all

acknowledge the legacy of the Ulster Covenant, that it is one

which has been lasting and one which I expect none of us would be

sitting in this House without. There is a lot to be learned from

this. George Mitchell once said that in America people knew too

little about their history and in Northern Ireland, they knew too

much. I think that is wrong. There is a level of ignorance in this

country and I think it is important that we -- it is important that we

use this opportunity to educate people. John von Baden joins us to

answer that question. -- Jonathan Bardon. Did George Mitchell have a

point? I disagree with them. The more we know the better we

understand each other. For many people, there is a lot of fiction

mixed up with the facts about the covenant. Have you found that?

used to think myself that more women signed than men. In fact we

now know that more men signed than women. Many people think that the

covenant was where people pledged themselves to prevent the

introduction of home rule to Ulster. In fact, on 20th September 1912,

they were pledging themselves to resist the introduction of home

rule to the whole island of Ireland. People forget that the notion of

Northern Ireland did not exist as an entity at that time. People make

that fundamental mistake all the time. It is a fundamental mistake.

Eventually, quietly, the Ulster Unionist Council decided in

December 1912 that they would just tried to stop home rule for the

nine counties of Ulster. After the 1916 rising, they reduce that again

to just six Counties. Huge number of people -- huge numbers of people

signed, slightly more men than women but pretty close. In all,

almost 500,000 people. It was an extraordinary number of people. It

shows you the determination of the Protestant majority in the north-

east to resist Home Rule, because they feared that nationalists would

not be satisfied with home rule and that they would want complete

independence eventually. Was it exclusively Protestant? I think it

pretty well was exclusively Protestant. I would think that... I

don't think a Catholic has been found that has signed it. What, for

you, is the significance of it? Some people have described it as

the birth certificate of Northern Ireland. Would you go that far?

would. Are regarded as the founding document for Northern Ireland

because it made it plain to the British Government, whether it be

liberal or conservative, but it was going to have to make a separate

arrangement for the north-east of violent. It succeeded in doing that

even though the original intention was to stop home rule for the whole

island. Carson himself was not in favour of Partition because he was

a sudden unionist. What are your thoughts in the way it is

commemorated 100 years on? Because that is a political hot potato.

cannot be ignored. It is too important an event in our past. It

helped to shape our present. It has to be marked. I must say, members

of the Assembly have shown a good deal of maturity in discussing this.

The problem would be outside the Assembly when passions get aroused

greatly. There is the danger of corruption. How it is commemorated

now, 100 years on, will set the tone for other commemorations.

There is a decade of centenaries coming up. The most contentious

after the covenant would be the Easter rising of 1916, but there

are many others. Including the Government of Ireland Act of 1920

which created Northern Ireland. you think nationalists need to

think about how they commemorated the covenant and Unionists need to

think about things like the Government of Ireland Act and what

happened in 1916? I think soft, because if you're going to have a

shared future, it means that you look sympathetically at the views

of people on the other side, and find out more about what actually

happened. The it would be interesting to see how it is marked,

100 years on. Thank you very much for coming in to join us tonight.

Access to credit for smaller medium-size businesses was on the

Finance Minister's mind this morning. Sammy Nelson -- Sammy

Wilson said he was worried that the Treasury's moves are not having

significant impact here in Northern Ireland. By an concerned at our

members of all parties in the Assembly -- I am concerned about

how at the availability of credit can be restricting our economic

recovery. It is an issue that has been ongoing and one where I am

increasingly frustrated at the lack of attention to regional banking

issues. And the specific challenges that we face here. Bank lending to

SMA is a national issue and in response, the Government has

introduced a number of initiatives designed to improve lending and

liquidity. -- SMAs. It is hoped that that will internet improve the

ability to get finance and reduce the cost of credit. As banking is a

reserved matter and is the Government's responsibility to

ensure that such initiatives and schemes are equally effective in

all parts of the UK. They have not done this. I do not believe that

their schemes have been effective here. This is because the structure

of local banking sector is fundamentally different from the

rest of the UK. The key structural difference is the extent of foreign

ownership, whereby local banks are subject to the decisions of parent

bank's base outside of the United Kingdom. Just last week, the

Business Secretary, Vince Cable announced that the Government are

working on setting up a new government-backed institution to

help companies invest. We have taken this up with the Treasury to

ask for details and have been told that the Chancellor and the

Business Secretary are developing options for creating a business

bank in the UK. An institution of this nature would address long-

standing gaps in finance for SMAs bike and boating moat -- promoting

competitive and diverse finance markets and joining together the

Government's existing finance initiatives under one roof. They

see this as complementing what the Government is doing on supporting

private sector lending through the funding for lending scheme. I am

told that the Government will set out the details later this autumn.

It is very interesting, this development, and I will be pressing

to ensure that it is open to and will benefit Northern Ireland

businesses. Sammy Wilson. The pressure group Amnesty

International have been giving evidence to an all-party group of

MLAs on the issue of prostitution. Lord Morrow is hoping to out low --

outlaw the practice of paying for sexual services from a prostitute

but critics say that this could see resources taken away from the

problem. Joining me is a representative from Amnesty. What

are your concerns? Firstly, it is important to see this bill in its

full context. What is good is that it provides us with an opportunity

to debate how Northern Ireland is fulfilling its obligations as

outlined in the EU directive and the Council of Europe convention.

It serves to have a debate around that, which is useful. I also think

the protective sieve gives -- protections against two victims

that are contained within the bill are also useful. It is important to

stress that there are elements that we welcome. What we think is not

useful is caused four, which looks to outlaw the paying for sexual

services of a prostitute. From our perspective, it conflates separate

issues. It has the potential to divert resources away from the

victims of trafficking and bringing traffickers to justice. UCD issues

as separate, prostitution and human trafficking. Lord Morrow says that

he is taking an overview of the situation. -- you see the issues.

People involved are by definition themselves, victims in most

circumstances. That is debatable. There is a difference to treat a

woman who willingly sells sex and a victim of trafficking who has been

transported from country to country against their will. But a lot of

prostitutes are also victims. Absolutely. The debate needs to

stay on victims and making sure that their rights are protected. We

need to have refocused strategy to make sure that Northern Ireland is

a hostile place for traffickers. They may be related but they are

essentially two separate issues. Those supporting the legislation

say that outlawing prostitution will lead to a drop in demand.

Surely that will lead to the benefit of everyone involved.

Bill is based on the Swedish model and there is conflicting evidence

as to whether that has been successful. Other research points

that yes, this has halved the amount of prostitution but for

every point of research that shows that the Swedish model has worked,

there is evidence that has pointed to it not working. That has driven

the problem underground. There is no one-size-fits-all approach to

human trafficking. In Northern Ireland, we have things like Beye

porous border, and we have issues which need to consider like that.

It is important we stay focused on the context. You mention the

Swedish example. Lord Morrow was also in step with legislators to

want to see changes in the law in Scotland and the Republic and in

Westminster. In the Republic, I think it is very much in the

infancy there. I think they are very much at the same point that we

are at. The Scottish police have raised this point as well in terms

of resources being diverted and how they possibly police that. We make

that argument are sore -- also. The PSNI, their resources for example

are diverted away from trafficking and into arresting men who pay for

sexual services of a prostitute. will leave it there. Thank you very