19/02/2013 Stormont Today

Welcome to the programme. Coming up: The retention of DNA and

fingerprints. I think that totally and absolutely undermines the

principle of innocence -- innocence. We were here from representatives

of the allied party and Sinn Fein. We made a plea that we watch our

language, and any starts to call some people clowns. I don't think

it is helpful at all to refer to people as clowns. Why sorry is the

hardest word. This whole time for members, they come through my

office door and apologies -- apologise. I would take confessions

The Criminal Justice Bill reached another stage of its passage

through the House this afternoon, dealing with human trafficking and

sex offenders. It also seeks to clarify the law over the DNA and

fingerprinting. This issue prompted the most debate in the chamber.

There is a provision within the bill as tabled for the definite

retention of DNA and fingerprints where a person is charged as a

result of an arrest. A person who is not subject to a prosecution,

and note... That totally undermines the principle of innocence. We had

a discussion early on about the role of this assembly. The role of

this assembly is to protect citizens. The role of the assembly

is to protect citizens against those criminals who are torching

their local community. The problem he has to face is that there are

many, many examples of the technology we now have, or -- of

people who have committed the most violent crimes who have been

detected, charged and a pruners -- imprisoned on the basis of DNA

profiling. The police made it very clear that the retention of his

mature was absolutely essential in order to pursue those criminals.

DNA was taken in 2001. I could have gone to the police and destroyed it,

but I have nothing to fear. Is he going to deny the PSNI the right to

have access to remote Montana RG2 depend criminals? This could solve

a horrible crime. First of all, you should not presume that everything

-- everyone who is arrested is a criminal. When they are asked about

the statistics, when they asked about the many cases because of the

retention, they weren't very for -- forthcoming. What the majority of

the public wants is to ensure that we are not soft on crime, and not

soft on criminals. What I am concerned about is that some on the

opposing benches here want to give every possible opportunity for

criminals to evade the law, and that is the reason for some of

these amendments. I listen to Mr McCartney earlier, who said that

DNA was postal -- personal property. Of course it is, but if it can be

used to the benefit of the public and the law, then it should be your

used. We believe the courts are best suited and best place to deal

with any issues that arise. The biometric commissioner, all well

and good, the people who have the experience and authority, and I

believe and my party believes that they should be the adjudicator if

necessary. I agree with what you just said, it is important to

support the law, and we, as the party, are anxious to support the

law. But the law is not just simply a matter of procedure, the law also

includes concerns about citizens'' right. The amendments proposed

about the biometric Commissioner. They had no difficulty with the

position. It makes the point that they cannot go into the Kora meant

every single time that there is dispute of this nature and --

Of course, as a public authority, that would in -- indeed fall to

them. That should make any reservations about non-compliance.

In Northern Ireland, the database holds 5% of the population, and

under the new framework, that will reliefs -- changed to 4%. In

Scotland, it will be 6%, and in England and Wales, it is 8%. In the

USA, 3.5 %, in France, 1.4 %. While there is no doubt that the database

in the UK generally is something of three times the European average,

they are proving 20 times more efficient. We have seen in recent

years, the the database in Northern Ireland, and it is not the database

that can be to people it is the -- it is the police. It has led to it

the arrest of 700 people by the PSNI. The listening to that, we'd

have Stewart Dickson and Raymond McCartney. You say you are a

liberal. What you support the retention of DNA? I think it is

important that the DNH is retained. It is an area of concern. This is

retention from people who are not ultimately committed -- -- who have

not committed any crime. He highlighted in the statistics he

gave to the house today that the pretension of that DNA least two

important decisions being made. It will deliver convictions down the

line. Isn't the danger that your party is opposing this and you'll

be seen as being tough -- soft on crime? No, I don't think so.

Throughout the proceedings, we let out our approach, and the basic

principle is that the European Court of Human Rights is total, and

the presumption of innocence. We will do everything we can to

attempt -- protect this. That is what we have taken the position

that we have. If you have nothing to hide, why worry about this?

think the human rights commission address that. They may be example

that DNA is private property. We may assume that there is nothing in

our homes. Yet certain times, we do not have an open-door policy. We

must not take the position that if you have nothing to hide, come

forward with your DNA. If you say to someone after being arrested, or

someone has faced court proceedings that they are innocent, they are

holding on to your DNA, then you have what is called suspicion, or

at nearly guilty. That is not necessarily going to be for ever.

In circumstances it won't be, and I think that is a dressing some

aspects of the human rights binding. But we feel that there are other

aspects where it will be held indefinitely. We need to address

that. Are you satisfied, Stewart Dixton, but this parts -- this past

eight human rights test? -- Stewart Dickson? The case was critical of

the country's that did not go through retention. What the human -

but what the European Court said is that the Scottish government but it

added a ruck by having a retention framework. They can apply for

extensions. By which time, the sample is destroyed. This is not

indefinite retention. That is why it is a human Court of European --

European Court of Human Rights protected. Does not violent really

need another commission? The person will be someone who will be public

servant within a public organisation. It is vitally

important that it is a commissioner rather than the courts, because it

if you wish to appeal against the decision to hold a DNA sample, if

you go to court, that is a public proceedings, and you may well be

faced with a situation where it is reported. That you had your DNA

sample destroyed. At some future case, that may skew public opinion

against you as someone going to court. If he had but a right of

appeal to a public myth dinner, done in private, and no public

decision, you can go back to court. Widowed Hill there is a need for a

commissioner, but as something that is a judicial process, we believe

that the are bad -- best arbiters is that this to be contested. It

could be a necessary piece of bureaucracy. We could be left open

to the accusation that the commissioner is part of the

Department, and there -- that make The Enterprise Minister has

dismissed concerns that recent scenes of disorder could cause

problems for the forthcoming World Police and Fire Games. Arlene

Foster was asked whether trouble in North Belfast on Saturday could put

off athletes coming here. First, though, she faced a question about

a project backed by Tourism Ireland. Could the Minister confirm to the

House that she does indeed support to the global Greening, which could

see landmarks such as the pyramids in Egypt being turned green, and

can she confirmed that the first and Deputy First Minister will be

able to support the Rio de Janeiro initiative when they visit Brazil?

I thanks a member for his question. It is tourism Ireland's initiative,

and it has been going on for some considerable time. It has happened

on the leaning Tower of Pisa, the Sydney Opera House, and they are

looking for new and innovative ways to do this, so they will continue

to look to that. What I'm interested in is how they're going

to give stand out to Northern Ireland in respect of what they do

across the world, particularly in relation to Belfast and the

difficulties that have been on going, how they're going to address

those issues. I would like referred to the activities of last weekend

where there were disgraceful scenes and a football match had to be

cancelled by the activities of some clams on the street. Could the

Minister ask what answer the question about the potential for

the Police and Fire Games just around the corner? Surely those

scenes that we have seen last weekend, is there any indication

that the sports people that have coming here will still come? I say

to the member that we made a plea that we watch our language, and

then he gets up and start to call some people clowns. I don't think

it is helpful to refer to be able as clowns. We had a successful

lunch which row attended along with the mayor of Belfast. When we were

talking about the accommodation figures and we passed the 2 million

mark in relation to accommodation for the Royal Police and Fire Games,

which are very much welcome, we had some people over her work

competitors in the last World Police and Fire Games, and frankly

they were having a good time right across Northern Ireland, they

visited Fermanagh, they visited the north coast and were of course in

Belfast as well. And they were singing the praises of this place

as a destination. That is the sort of positive message we want to send

out. We fully support the back in Belfast campaign, but given the

fact that the Derry City Council have had a business case in for the

last number of mums looking for some help and support with -- the

last number of months looking for help and support with this, we need

to try to make sure we have the biggest available budget for

marketing that we can get for what is the biggest event in 2013.

thanks a member for his question. He will know that it is not just

about my department in all of this, and indeed we have been working

very closely with both the City Council and the culture company in

relation to the marketing and communications plans going forward.

Under the new executive advertising guidelines, I have to obtain

permission for any marketing and communications campaigns in

Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, and there is a proposal

for a bespoke marketing campaign for the UK City of Culture, and

that is currently being considered. I am hopeful a decision will be

taken in the very near future. How much will the long-awaited

Education Skills Authority cost the Education Department, and will it

be the biggest quango in Europe? Just some of the issues facing the

Education Minister John O'Dowd during question time earlier.

projected annual budget for the Education Schools Authority will

largely be the some of the Budget so the existing eight arm's-length

bodies that will transfer. The Council for schools, the staff

commission and the council. The budget in 2012 to 2013 of these

eight bodies was a 1 billion -- �58 million capital. This function and

some of operational duties currently carried out by the

Department will also transfer, along with any associated resources.

Work is currently on going to establish a level of funding, but

at this stage, are high level of the Budget will be in something in

the terms of 1.8 billion a resource and 1.2 billion capital. I thank

the Minister for that response. This is meant to be about saving

money and being more efficient, but it will effectively become the

largest quango in Europe. Can the Minister detail when he will be

bringing forward the detailed case for the Education Schools

Authority? I don't accept his description, but I'm not absolutely

clear as to what the opposition is based upon, and expected is more

political than educational, and if that is so, there is a danger of

potentially damaging the educational potential of our

society, because I have yet to hear a rational argument as to why they

are opposed. It will not be anywhere near the largest quango in

Europe. In fact I would question their democratic -- their

definition of a quango, when this is democratically accountable.

Campbell. The minister previously outlined a number of administrative

savings that are currently ongoing and had been ongoing in recent

years. Does he envisage further savings and when the Education

Schools Authority is established? Continued savings will be a matter

for the board and in terms of what the educational budget looks like

at that time, but it is expected that the establishment will

initially saved around �25 million per year in terms of advice and

support for schools, and secondly, the rationalisation of educational

administration will have �50 million of savings. That will be

made per year from the administration and management costs

of these various bodies. The savings issue is important, but the

main driver was to ensure that we had an educational body which could

deliver a modern fit for purpose education service to the

communities it serves. The education boards are outdated. That

in no way undermines the good work carried out by its members. The

function of the Education Schools Authority is to modernise the

approach. Mr Speaker, I have listened carefully to the

minister's replies so far, and I am sure the minister is aware that

Chalobah was another publication on literacy and numeracy. Cannot the

minister assure us that this organisation will put an end to the

many millions -- thousands of children leaving school each year

with no ability to read or write? The report actually said that there

were children whose literacy and numeracy skills were not what they

should be. It did not say they could not read or write. I notice

today in the paper there is judgment upon us without even

hearing the report of the Accounts Committee. I would like them to

give the audit report a fair hearing. It does not tell us

anything we don't already know. No member of this House should be

surprised at the Fanny its findings. - match -- the finance findings. We

have been saying all along that this needs to be fixed. The audit

report highlights that we have policies in place that will fix it,

but it will take time and further resources to fix it. The hearing in

relation to the report shows that. The Education Minister John O'Dowd.

Last week we heard how electronic scanners like those used in

airports will not replace full-body searching in prisons in Northern

Ireland. Prison staff appeared before the Justice Committee to

explain the findings of a three- month pilot scheme. Sue McAllister,

the director general of the prison service, said she was disappointed

by the outcome of the pilot, as we can hear now in our weekly look at

Regarding our evaluation of the millimetre wave Scanners, you will

now be aware from your papers and reports in the media that the

results of the pilot showed that in the prison environment, there were

limitations to the technology, and that our current for surging

processes provide a higher level of assurance by finding more of the

test items than the scanning technology. A closed session will

undoubtedly enable us to go into the evaluation in much more detail,

but I think it is important to say at this stage that we are

disappointed at the outcome of the pilot. It is our view that in order

to preserve the security of the Establishment and the safety of

prisoners, staff and the wider community, the requirement for full

searching on entry to and exit from the prisons and in some other

circumstances must remain until a satisfactory alternative can be

found. What has been the reaction from Republicans? Why you are alert

to what the reaction could be, to the fact that what they are

demanding isn't going to happen? have been clear all along that this

is a technological solution for the Prison Service and not about any

specific group of prisoners. A pop at the -- the pilot has only just

finished, and we have not shared the findings of anyone else before

coming to brief you, because that would not have been appropriate. We

have not shared the findings with any prisoners. Do you expect to

reaction? We have been talking to the staff and assessors who going

regularly to speak to prisoners, and we know there will be an

interest. My view is that there is not a higher expectation amongst

those prisoners that this will be necessarily suitable for our

purposes. Set it remains to be seen what a reaction will be. We have a

much less intrusive way of carrying out a full search than in other

jurisdictions. In England and Wales, the prisoner can be required to

lift his genitals, to squat and pull apart his buttocks, for

example, if there is reason to believe items are concealed. There

are things that are done that are clearly more intrusive and less

pleasant for staff that we don't do. Why do we not do it? We have never

done it to my knowledge, certainly not in recent times, and our view

is that the benefits of doing it outweigh the risks and the

implications for decency and dignity. Is there any legal

barriers to doing it.? If you decided that you felt it was

necessary, for example to deal with the drugs problem? I don't know the

answer to that, but I do know that when I was head of the security

group in England and Wales, we had to ascertain that it was legal for

us to do what we did, so it is certainly legal in England and

Wales to do the things that I have explained. What they don't know,

because we have not asked that question, is whether we would

legally be able to do it. But I certainly have no wish to explore

that at this time, and don't think it operationally necessary. I think

it is much more appropriate that we look at technological solutions

than explore ways of increasing the intrusive nature and are full

search. Well, Raymond McCartney and Stewart Dickson are still with me.

Raymond McCartney, does this mean that the future is body searching?

No. There was a focus at the committee on having a technological

solution. We live in the 21st century. Everyone had different

angles, but we all accept that the body search is intrusive. We have

to ensure that the pilot scheme is not seen as a one-off. We need to

look at how we can modify the scanner for the needs of the pilot.

Is it embarrassing that the scheme hasn't come up with the result that

many people wanted to see? I think people wanted to see the technology

be more effective than it was. I think it is possible that some

changes can be made. There is a further piece of equipment that is

available, as well, but that requires UK wide permission,

because it is an X-ray machine. And prisoners are right to have health

and safety concerns about the use of this equipment. Peraza has have

a right -- prisoners have a right to refuse to use this equipment if

they choose to. Now, just before we go, the Speaker, Willie Hay, was

not happy with some MLAs who were missing during yesterday's Question

Time. But in the spirit of Lent, it seemed he was in a forgiving mood.

I raised the issue yesterday of members not being in their place

during question time, especially members who have been named on the

paper for a question. I have had one member through my door who has

apologised. Thus far, I had nobody else. We know the members who were

not in their place yesterday, so there is still time for members to

come to this house and apologise, through my office door and

apologise. I will take confessions wherever they may be.