19/11/2013 Stormont Today

Hello and welcome to Stormont Today. Coming up on the programme tonight.

Passions run high as the Assembly discusses the disappeared.

That was never to be. Liz McVey has passed away and every woman who was

wracked with agony, sort reand grief. The speaker gives memberses a

dressing down after heating words in the chamber yesterday. I just cannot

allow members to get contributions to be so offensive it's unbelievable

as senior position polices. I'm joined by Simon McBride to look over

the day's proceedings. Flags, parades and dealing with the

past. Three of the most contentious issues in Northern Ireland politics.

So contentious that the former US envoy Richard Haas is here to help

politicians find a solution. Today in Stormont, it was the past that

was centre stage with a heated debate on the disappeared. The

Ulster Unionist leader Mike Nesbitt brought to motion to the House

following the BBC and RTE documentary telling the story of

those abducted, murdered and buried by paramilitaries during the

troubles. Of the 16 people listed as disappeared, only nine bodies have

been found. In the case of Jean income Conville, that was not

because of information supplied by the provisional members of the IRA.

Her demaines were discovered by a member of the public. So, Mr

Speaker, after nearly 15 years, only half the disappeared have been

recovered because of information supplied by Republicans.

Republicans who enjoyed the prif Lynn of immunity from prosecution if

they engaming in the process which is independent and is international

-- process of immunity. Only half the families have had the comfort of

a Christian burial because Republicans engaged successfully. Mr

Speaker, in terms of dealing with the past, half the truth is simply

not enough. It may be helpful to remind

ourselves of the state of the IRA position on this tragic matter. In

April 1999, the IRA issued a statement, coinciding with the

establishment of the Commission, accepting responsibilities for the

deaths of a number of people kill and secretly buried. At that time,

they blamed their position and the commitment to cooperation with the

Independent Commission for the location of victims' remains and

stated "our intention has been to do all within our power to rectify the

injustice for which we accept full responsibility and to alleviate the

suffering of the families. We are sorry that this has taken so long to

resolve and for the prolonged anguish caused to the families". For

the families of the disappeared, they are left with the fate worse

than death. I suspect most, if not all of us in this House at some

stage, have lost a relative, have lost a loved one, be it a mother,

father, brother, sister, some even unfortunate enough even to lose a

child, and we all know the trauma of that. At least for all of us in this

chamber, we've had the opportunity to grieve, to go to the graveside,

to be able to attend a funeral. No such privilege has been given to the

families of the disappeared. That's why for them it's a fate worse than

death. If you look at our politics over the

last 40, 50 years, especially over the last 20, it's gone, Mr Speaker,

through a number of phases. The ceasefire phase, the devolution

phase, and the devolution of justice phase, the Uniteded stand against

terror period. If our politics is to be defined in this time in any way,

it must be that the needs of victims and survivors, including the

disappeared, must have primacy that this must be their time and this

must be their place. The forceable removal of people from their

families, torture and burial in unknown locations, has to be among

the worst human rights abuse imaginable. It's indelible evil on

the history of our community. I think in particular whilst there are

many stories in that programme, while people refuse to visit the

area. "I have a vision of Columbus standing there looking into a hole,

I've never done anything to the IRA, neither did my mum, so why are they

torturing us 38 years on and they are still torturing us today. All we

want is to put him in the grave beside my mum and dad", that is what

one of the victims said. I will never forget Miss McVey saying to us

that day "we only want his body so that we can have it interred and the

family plot -- in the family plot" where his father at that stage was

already buried. She said "before I die, I want him there". ".

That was never to be. Miss McVey has passed away, an elderly woman, who

was wracked with agony and sorrow and grief.

That programme didn't play to our politics. That programme played to

our humanity. It was a challenge to all to search their conscience, even

those whose conscience is seered by years of justifying and supporting

terrorism. In the case of some perpetrating terrorism. Appeal to

whatever ounce of humanity might yet exist to do the right thing. The

motion was passed with an amendment calling for anyone with information

about the disappearance of Lisa Dorrian to bring it forward to the

police. News editor Political Correspondent Sam McBride joins me

now. A measured debate in the House today across the benches? It was. I

think by the standards of what was being discussed and how some of

thesish yous, which are extremely emotional, and where people feel

strongly about it, have been dealt with in the past in the Assembly,

this was quite restrained, I think it was a sombre point. We saw Lord

Marlow there being understandably very emotional about the mother of

KLM BA McVey who met Ian Paisley when he was First Minister a few

years ago and of course died before her son's remains were recovered and

still I believe haven't been recovered. I think that in a way was

reflected no how Sinn Fein dealt with the issue. They, quite

unusually, didn't force a vote. Normally when parties disagree with

the motion, as Sinn Fein made very clear today, both on the airwaves

and in the chamber today, they didn't agree with the motion, they

thought it unfairly targeted Gerry Adams, but they didn't force a

division of the House and that was something that some of the speakers

in favour of the motion, Tom Elliott being one of them, really asked

them, please don't do this, it would add to the distress of the families.

Do you think that was part of drawing this thing or trying to draw

the sting out of the debate? There wasn't the - All sides in the House

were agreed that people with information about what happened to

the people that were disappeared should brimming that forward to the

Commission for the -- bring that forward to try to find the remains

of those people. There was agreement on that point and on the point that

it was absolutely wrong. Sinn Fein probably felt that with the way that

public opinion has reacted to the documentary, there was very lit toll

be had by forcing a vote which they were going to lose anyway and which

would look poor, I suppose. Do you think, Sam, that this will put the

issue to bed for a while, or is it something that's never going to be

too far away from the headlines? I think at the time of the Good Friday

Agreement, you can imagine people thinking these issues of the past

would fade as time has gone on. Yet, week after week, they come back to

the Assembly. There is no prospects of this stuff going ie way. The Haas

talks might come up with some sort of solution which removes some

issues from the agenda, but as long as there are bodies not discovered

and as long as there's Croftry around certain incidents about the

troubles or historic moments marking anniversaries for for atrocities, it

will keep coming back to the chamber. For now, thank you very

much. Yesterday, we brought you some of the heated exchanges during the

debate on the Office of the police ombudsman. This morning, the speaker

made it clear he wasn't happy with some of what was said.

I was asked by members to look at Hansard, especially during the

debate yesterday on the awsmts I have to say, on initial look at

Hansard, it does not make good reading. We are almost half way

through this term and this Assembly and I have to say, the debates in

this Assembly have very much fallen very much to a point where I have to

say some of the debates themselves I would ask members to question, some

of the offensive language members are using in this Charles de

Gaulleberg. . Certainly reading Hansard yesterday

-- chamber. Reading Hansard yesterday, I refer to remarks made

by Mr Alastair, Mr Elliott and Mr Keegan in the chamber yesterday.

I have to say, some of their contribution fell far short of the

good temper in moderation and that we should all expect in this

chamber. Let me say to the three members I've been watching closely,

the three members that I have named. I have to say, if I find that they

have crossed a line in future, I will not call them for the

contribution. In fact, I will go further. I will ask them to take

their place and I will move on. Members need to realise, my job

here, is to protect integrity of this Assembly and very much protect

the business that goes through this Assembly House, debated in this

Assembly. I just cannot allow members to get to be so offensive

it's unbelievable. The speaker reflecting on some of

yesterday's more colourful exchanges. The removal of members of

paramilitary organisations from safety partnerships was on the

agenda for the Justice Minister today at Question Time. But first,

we hear a lot about dissident Republicans, but what about the term

dissident unionists? There are a small number of

disaffected people on both sides of the community seeking to take

Northern Ireland back to the past. We have seen their reckness and

willingness to endanger life. Whether that is through acts of

terrorism, organised criminality or public disorder. The term dissident

Republicans is well understood. I use the term dissident unionists in

reply to Mr McGinness referring to those who engage in criminal

behaviour and do not accept the current political arguments. Neither

dissident can be allowed to thwart the process of Northern Ireland.

They need to see the futility of their actions and to pursue peaceful

means. Nothing should be said to encourage

the dissidents. That term is insulting. I wish you would put it

beyond all doubt and confirm that you do not regard those engaged in

legitimate peaceful pro-South Coasts such as those on the flags issue on

ongoing protests as dissident unionist and that we must be careful

in our choice of words. Thank you. -- peaceful processes. Does he agree

with me that those involved in loyalism who're causing disorder and

mayhem are in fact dissidents? He's correctly identified the way in

which I used the phrase last time, the way in which I've used it again

today and I believe people need to be careful if they sit here with a

democratic mandate that they do nothing to en encourage dissidents.

Is it not a scandal that a well-known member of an illegal

organisation now sits on the Belfast Policing Board. Is that not

something which ordinary members of the public would rightly object to?

The arrangements for removal are quite clear. If somebody has

demonstrably failed to uphold the declaration against terrorism which

they made on appointment to the PCSP or the district PCSP, that is the

way the law was formulate and put through this House. If there were

changeses to be made, including vetting prior to appointment, they

would have to be considered by this House at a later stage. I certainly

understand the concerns which have been expressed by Mr Maginnis if

that is the feeling about the community -- the feeling of the

community of some members. In light of recent events in

Coleraine and east Belfast, can I ask the minister what discussions

he's had with the Chief Constable in respect of illegal loyalist activity

and the status of the UVF ceasefire? We need to be careful how we handle

those issues. The specific matter of a UVF ceasefire or lack of it issues

is a case in the organisation are not for the Department of Justice,

but they remain with the Secretary of State. But the member and others

will appreciate that when I meet the Chief Constable, I discuss a range

of issues which include criminal and terrorist activity. Social

Development Minister also faced Question Time and he was asked if he

had misled his committee over a meeting with double glazing Fareham

Turkington Windows. He was asked the question by Stuart Dixon. Given the

evidence to the DST Inquiry on Thursday past with regards to a

letter of 24th May 2012 to the chair, did you mislead the

committee? There's a proprocess being taken

forward by the committee at the moment. There were a number of

submissions made last Thursday. There'll be further submissions made

this Thursday. I'm due to come to the committee later on in the month

of December, I think it's the 12th December, and at that point, I will

in fact be giving a submission to the committee. I think it would be

wrong and premature to address until I have the courtesy of giving that

to the committee. It's a very simple question to the

member, dishe mislead the committee. Why did you instruck a civil servant

to change the content of that letter? I don't know if the member

has difficulty understanding plain English, but I simply said there in

response to the first point that I would make the information available

to the committee on the 12th December when I go to the committee

and I intend, in response to your second question, to give the answer

to that in due course as well. Very simple answer will be given on the

12st deaths and I would ask the member to have a bit of patience --

12th December. Do you have any concerns that delays to the welfare

reform Bill will place his department's ability to administer

and provide benefits to the most vulnerable at risk? The member makes

a very important point here. One that has been largely overlooked in

general comment and in particular in the media. Because when we talk

about welfare reform and delays, we tend to think in terms of the recent

visit by Mike Pinning and the point he made by way of financial

penalties that would impact on the Northern Ireland block grant.

There's more to it than that. Potentially, it can also impact on

the viability of the jobs we have in Northern Ireland providing services

to the rest of the United Kingdom in the delivery of welfare. There's

also this point that's been made there, that, as regards this - I'm

really concerned that delays to welfare Bill are already resulting

in operational difficulties - due to the need to put in place clerical

work around as the two benefit systems begin to diverge. There are

practical difficulties as well, putting at risk the social security

agency's ability to administer and provide benefits. The agency is

already incurring additional costs. At the moment, modest, but they'll

quickly rack up. So it's important, not just for the penalty issue to be

kept in mind. That's a hugely important one, as the DWP minister

pointed out, but there's also the practical difficulties that are

detrimental to claimants in Northern Ireland.

We are totally dependent in Northern Ireland on the IT system throughout

the rest of the United Kingdom. There's no possibility of Northern

Ireland going it alone and devising its own IT system for welfare

payments. It would be totally impossible. The cost would be

astronomical. It would be simply totally destructive to the Northern

Ireland block grant in terms of the cost of it. How we could do it, I

could not imagine. Social and development minister Nelson McCause

land. The Assembly has backed cross party motion, calling for

streamlining. It's said a better structure would improve economic

growth, competitiveness and social well-being. Sandra spoke in the

debate and she's with me now. Are you saying individual departments

aren't pulling their weight, because you said some parties treat their

departments as thief Domes? Yes, well, fit for purpose and strong

infrastructure is key for economic matters in Northern Ireland. It's

important this matteder is addressed. It's an important issue

and we are doth calling on all ministers to make sure that all

infrastructure projects are progressed as speedily as possible

and the construction industry who we met last week, many of us, they tell

us how they've suffered since 2007. We have a glimmer of hope on the

horizon here and it's important that we have as many projects coming

forward now as possible. At the same time, the executive can't single

handedly keep the construction industry afloat in Northern Ireland?

Absolutely. I mean, you will go to airports and you will see members of

the construction industry heading to GB and they have been doing for

quite some time. The construction industry's been working in Northern

Ireland and working across in they are parts of the UK and the world to

keep them going. Singled out the education department

today, John O'Dowd, you said to him, the schools building process aren't

acceptable. Why that department specifically? Just because I was at

a meeting last week with members of the construction and employers

federation and it was raised at that meeting that minister O'Dowd had

announced a plan of school buildings, but they haven't reached

procurement, never mind build yet. It was an issue brought to me at

that meeting. That's why I raised it today. You said construction

industry needs the capital projects, but if your party rode in behind it,

there would have been so many projects? There are so many projects

that need to happen in Northern Ireland. That was a big one though?

It was a big one, yes, but what the Ulster Unionist Party want to do is

what is right for Northern Ireland and, you know, we'll find other

projects and we'll do what we can to find other projects, to find

projects for the construction industry.

Can I just ask you one final question on a subject that we have

already dealt with on the programme, the debate on the disappeared. Are

you satisfied with the way in which Sinn Fein handled it and didn't

force a vote? It was a very sombre debate this afternoon. I was pleased

that we had almost unanimous support for that. It's very important that

the Assembly shows their support for the families of the disappeared and

we managed to do that today so I was pleased with the response. Thank you

very much. There was a third Question Time

today featuring the Assembly Commission. It has the task of

ensuring the Assembly's provided with the property, staff and

services required for to it carry out its work. Committee members

fielded questions from the floor. There has been a concerning trend of

reducing participation in elections over the past decade. Would the

member assure me that the commission will continue to support and expand,

rather than potentially reduce, the educational outreach service and,

can she update me when it plans next to engage with my constituency?

First of all, the member can be absolutely assured that I'll have

and will continue to fight very hard to ensure that there are no

reductions and indeed that we increase the work that the Assembly

education staff are doing and that the programme does. In retlietion

your own constituency, the Assembly team work with every constituency,

if events are planned, we'd be happy to hear them, please feel free to

contact myself or any member of the Commission in relation to that.

Could I ask one of the Commissioners if the Commission's given any

consideration to having a stocktaking exercise in relation to

our lifts within this building? There's one of them I think has been

out of Commission for at least a year. I see another one out of

commission at the moment. Are our lifts fit for purpose?

I thank Lord Morrowfr for his supplimentary. I was in the lift

this morning and I pushed the buttons and the door opened and told

me I had arrived, then they closed again. It was comical, like a

cartoon sketch. I reported that as a fault. Obviously, the lifts with

quite old, but the technology is not rocket science and I am advised that

major work is being done to the lifts. A Commission placed in the

House, in this long-going issue, placed the House on sale for the

open market in January 2012. There's been a considerable level of

interest in the property for development opportunities, there

have been very few substantive bids made for Ormiston House and the

committee is not in a position to agree a sale. The Commission has one

bid for the property but that bid was at less than the asking price.

The DUP member of the Assembly Commission there. The final Business

Today, remember the passing of one of east Belfast's most famous sons.

22nd N 1963, 50 years ago this Friday, the world was stunned to

learn of the death of President John F Kennedy who was assassinated on

the same day that he tragically lost his life in Dallas Texas, drive

Staples Lewis died one week before his 65th birthday. Harper Collins

boasts that his Chronicles of Narnia books alone have sold over 100

million copies. We should be looking, not just at how we can

commemorate him, but at how we can, sadly in a commercial way, make more

of our great writers. We have Brian free, Brian Moore, Louis McNiece,

Seamus hurricany and Oscar Wilde and Samuel Beckett. The creative

writings of CS Lewis has inspired imagination, a love of reading and

story-telling amongst children all over the world. The Alliance Party's

Chris Little. A few final thoughts now from Sam McBride. We touched on

it earlier the Haas talks, the expectations, perhaps the lack of

expectation. Do you think we'll see progress this side of Christmas?

I've no idea to be honest and I don't think anybody else has, if

they are honest, but yesterday Richard Haas alluded to his

displeasure that Sinn Fein published their submission. We saw the

submission of the retired police officers. It makes it harder to have

negotiations. What is your explanation for why Sinn Fein did

what they did. Have you been able to work it out? I really don't know.

It's possibly trying to up the anti a bit and make sure that people know

that something is going on behind-the-scenes. But we now know

what their opening bargaining position is, which is very unusual?

Some of their proposals are novel, such as having a single flag post in

certain areas, things like that. Maybe they are hoping that by

putting out their initial submission, it will make it easier

for the unionists to say they didn't get everything they wanted but I'm

not sure. Haas said the past is really difficult an issue and we

have touched on the that already. A lot of people saying it may be the

most difficult issue but cannot be brushed under the carpet? And the

SDLP and the Ulster Unionists are talking about that. It's the most

difficult issue but underpins a lot of the problems that come up in

terms of parades and flags. A quick final thought. No legislative

discussion again today? Yet again, there's been none. This was being

talked about at the weekend, a legislature with no legislation.

Westminster had an opposition day and they brought pieces of

legislation. It's getting routine that there's little of substance

being debated here. Thank you very much. That is it for tonight. Join

me for The View on Thursday. Bye-bye.