18/11/2013 Stormont Today

Hello and welcome to Stormont Today. Coming up on the programme tonight:

As Richard Haass returns to Belfast,

the First Minister says he and his party are committed to the process,

but there will be challenges. It will be more likely to get agreement

around issues relating to parades than it is to flags and more easy to

get it on flags than in the past. A debate about the Police Ombudsman

sees old divisions resurface. I would like to ask the member while

he is on his feet about the organisation that he belonged to and

how many of his colleagues have dual membership or was he colonel blimp

who didn't realise they were out killing Catholics while he was doing

his duty? I'm joined by our political

correspondent, Martina Purdy. Richard Haass is back. The former US

envoy to Northern Ireland, who's chairing all-party talks on flags,

parades and the past returned to Belfast today. Dr Haass and his

assistant, Megan O'Sullivan, will meet all the parties this week

before round table talks on Friday. The American is still confident of a

resolution before Christmas and the major parties are also hopeful that

a deal can be struck in the next six weeks. From experience of previous

negotiations, the real negotiations as you will remember because a lot

of you were involved in watching it and questioning it, actually

occurred in a tight process. I don't think it is too tight. I think we

are down to the nitty-gritty and if the will is there, we will be able

to advance and we will be able to come to a conclusion before that. I

don't want to deal with extending. Richard Haass said he doesn't want

this extended. He thinks it is long enough. I think it is long enough,

but it needs the political will. If there is going to be a positive

outcome, it will be because the executives parties who are on that

panel reach a conclusion and that depends very largely on whether they

are going to retreat into old ways because there is an election or two

coming up next year or whether they are prepared to look at what is in

the best long-term interests of the people of Northern Ireland. I hope

it is the latter. My party is certainly up for attempting to

resolve differences in these matters. I think it will be more

likely to get agreement around issues relating to parades than it

is to flags and more easy to get it on flags than in the past. Our goal

was, our goal is and our goal will be to complete this work before the

end of the year. That is to reach agreement and to make a full report

to the First Minister and Deputy First Minister and soon after to the

public. Imwe continue to believe that this goal and this schedule are

equal parts do-able and desirable. Richard Haass. Our political

correspondent, Martina Purdy, is with me. It will be an intensive

week for Richard Haass and the parties. What do you think we can

expect? Well, I think this is the point in the talks where we step up

a gear or as Richard Haass would say, it is time for the he pivot. It

will be intensive. We heard Gerry Kelly say it is time to get down to

the nitty gritty, Richard Haass is to hold two hour sessions with two

main parties this week. He is going to hold a separate session with the

First Minister and Deputy First Minister. The main point of

consensus is that the past will be the most difficult to crack. The

First Minister said if he had to rank them, I suppose, parading is

the least contentious followed by flags, followed by the past and

Richard Haass said this was because of the complexity of the past, but

because it has not had the same attention as the other issues.

Sinn Fein published its proposals on the key issues today. How likely is

it that these will form part of the solution? Sinn Fein is the only

party to publish its submissions. Some of the proposals are likely to

be rather contentious. One commentator suggested parading won't

be easy to crack after all. The party has resolved from that

position of being in favour of, or at least willing to compromise on

scrapping the Parades Commission. It wants to keep the Parades Commission

and give it more powers. That will would include rules around what

flags or emblems can be displayed on a parade and wants monitors to

examine parades and to report back to a post parade review and it talks

about a Scottish model whereby those organising the parade would pay the

costs and be liable for any damage done through public disorder. The

party not happy to have the flag flying on main routes or have kerb

stones painted. It wants two flags or no flags and no surprise that

Sinn Fein is seeking an independent commission, but the party has got to

go in hard and what Richard Haass said, what counts is not where the

parties are now, but where they will be at the end of the process.

Richard Haass says a deal by Christmas is desirable and do-able.

Is it? Well, I think it is a tall order, but it is not impossible. It

comes down to whether the parties are willing to make the hard

decisions, you know, Peter Robinson said if the process fails, it is not

down to Richard Haass, it is down to the parties. But he is going home at

the end of the week for Thanksgiving. So he will get at

least one holiday meal in peace! Earlier we saw the First Minister

talking about the Haass talks during Question Time. But Peter Robinson

also answered questions about the planned loyalist flag protests

before Christmas and, first of all, the Planning Bill which has been

dropped by the Environment Minister. Yes, we will be meeting with the

Minister for The Department of the Environment in the near future to

discuss the position, the executive should take on this matter. It would

be better if the minister had had this meeting before he made his

announcement. The issue of planning remains a key element in the

development of our local economy. It is still the case that many of the

potential investors that we speak with throughout the world, who are

looking to invest in Northern Ireland have been put off by our

planning system. It is internationally recognised that

Northern Ireland has a poor planning outcome and an example of this is

Sainsbury's Chief Executive, Justin King's remarks when he said a lack

of speed and logic and joined up thinking when came to issues

planning permissions makes Northern Ireland a challenging place in which

to invest. If we are serious about getting jobs into Northern Ireland,

we need to look at our planning system and ensure that it delivers

the right outcomes. It seems to me, that the right thing

to do would have been to put the legislation through the assembly and

allow it to be tested in the courts if necessary. I hope that we can

reach some agreement as to how we should go forward. There are a

number of options available to us and I know that the member would be

aware this forms part of the economic pack that we signed on

behalf of the executive with the Prime Minister. It is therefore,

executive policy, the ministers are required to, of course, meet all the

decisions that are taken by the executive and uphold them. So I hope

we can get a way through this particular problem. Thank you, Mr

Deputy principal speaker. Can I ask the First Minister to clarify as he

mentioned the that these were agreed with the Prime Minister and the

planning Bill passed by the assembly at consideration stage, whether he

believes the environmental minister is in breach of the pledge of

office? Well, clearly, the pledge of office

does require every minister to act in awe cordance with decisions taken

by the executive. The executive took a clear decision on these matters.

It is recorded in the minutes of the executive meeting. Yes, he is in

breach of the pledge of office. However, without going into his

position, I think it is important that we resolve the issue and move

forward on planning. Planning continues to be a significant

problem in Northern Ireland. We have to address that. And it will require

new legislation to address some of the weaknesses in the planning

system at present. As is so often the case in Northern

Ireland, we are dealing with competing rights. I have to say that

it seems to me that in relation to this matter, as the actual

anniversary of the decision by Belfast City Council comes early in

the week than the Saturday, and also that the decision led to the flag

being lowered which occurred other than on the Saturday, it appears to

me that a lunch time protest would do less violence to trade in

Belfast. It would more accurately be able to protest against the people

who took the decision because I suspect very few of them are going

to be in the City Hall on Saturday. While, it is not ideal for anybody,

it would be a worthwhile compromise. The First Minister talking about the

planned loyalist flag protests. There were heated exchanges in the

Assembly today as the future of the Police Ombudsman's Office was

debated. A DUP motion calling for changes to the organisation was

passed, but not before nationalists and unionists locked horns over one

of the Assembly's most divisive topics. The original consultation in

2012 centred on the individual skills of the ombudsman. Issues

regarding their appointment and the structure of the office. But this

latest consultation looks nothing less than a last minute attempt to

add even more powers to a body that has far from proved its ability to

fulfil the purpose it has at present. We are back to the old

blame the Brits mentity which does nothing to help us deal with the

past. I think it is a disgrace. A disgrace members that former police

officers whose duty it was to uphold the law, to enforce the law, are now

refusing to comply. What other profession or organisation would get

away with that? Would nurses get away with that? Would sworningers

get away -- social workers get away with that? No, they would not. Yet

we are about to stand here and say that it is OK for some of them

actually not to comply with the standards that are required. Dealing

with the past is a toxic mix for not only the ombudsman, but for the

politician, for this chamber and for the wider society in Northern

Ireland. We all have a duty and responsibility, whether it is

through the Richard Haass talks or other mechanisms that are going on

throughout our community dealing with the past. It has to be dealt

with in a much wider context and to place the whole responsibility of

dealing with the past entirely on the ombudsman is unfair and

unreasonable. The lack of accountability was o poison at the

heart of policing for many years. And so it is in the interests of

everyone in society here that we have a fully accountable policing

service. The office of the Police Ombudsman plays a crucial and

indispensable role in all of that. But why doesn't Mr Sheehan ask his

own members to be open and honest and co-operate with other bodies

here instead of his Deputy First Minister here saying at the Saville

Inquiry that he was bound by some code of honour and he couldn't give

anymore information... Our position is quite clear, if there is an

independent truth recovery process, Republicans will co-operate with it.

I would like to ask the member while he is on his feet about the

organisation that he belonged to, how many of his colleagues had dual

membership or was he some sort of Colonel Blimp and didn't realise

they were out killing Catholics while he was doing his duty? Order.

Order. I would ask the members to have good temper and regard for what

they are saying. You have an extra minute.

Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. Those remarks of someone

who is a convicted terrorist in this province, it is shameful against

people who are upholding law and order. Why doesn't he go to Mr

McGuinness and tell him to come and give the evidence that he should? If

I am going to be shouted down, Mr Deputy Speaker, he hasn't the

courage the way he sneaked behind ditches when he was in the

profissional ra. Is that -- IRA, is that what he wants to continue to

do? This is a democratic process here. Something you may not be

overly au fait with, but it is something we have here. I didn't go

out and murder people in the streets of Northern Ireland like he and his

colleagues did. The code of practise issued under part two of the krill

national procedure and investigations act sets out the

manner in which police officers are to record, retain and reveal to the

prosecutor material obtained in a criminal investigation which maybe

relevant to an investigation and related matters. It is not clear

that these provisions are inadequate. As has been well

hoimented, former officers cannot be compelled to co-operate with the

Police Ombudsman's investigations, the only exception if a criminal

investigation is being conducted, there would be sufficient grounds to

arrest an officer. I would urge anyone who has information to

co-operate with the Police Ombudsman in all respects.

The Justice Minister, David Ford. Now, do you remember the Civic Forum

set-up in 2000, its aim was to address pressing social, economic

and cultural matters, but it hasn't met since 2002. The SDLP is now

trying to have it recalled. Today was the second time in eight months

the party has brought the issue to the floor of the house and it met

with a mixed reaction. To be honest, Mr Speaker, I couldn't care if the

Civic Forum was never recalled because let's be honest, it was a

product of the Belfast agreement. Something that our party opposed and

still do. It was operationally ineffective with not one of its

original recommendations being accepted or implemented by the

executive of the day and I have no reason to believe that if recalled,

it would change. We do not want another unelected Parliamentary

organisation. Our existing assembly committees already perform a similar

function in taking evidence from the public, various bodies and society

in general. Much more could be done to develop this system and improve

the context between the Government and the public. The establishment of

a Civic Forum is a requirement of the Northern Ireland Act on which

these institutions and this society is founded whether some people like

that or not. It is an opportunity to enhance the representativeness and

effectiveness of our political process, but I believe that the

Civic Forum is one way to include the creativity and expertise that we

have in civic society in the political process and to encourage,

enhanced democratic par peus tation in Northern Ireland. I would argue

had we had a Civic Forum operational for the last number of years, we

would not have needed to have a Haass process because we would have

had the benefit of people out there who have views and the fact that we

have not been able to resolve the difficulties tells us there is a

deficit in the dialogue that is required to reach agreement on these

matters. The reason for the motion isn't that we are a broken record or

anything else, we got this motion passed last April and nothing

happened. Unfortunately, we don't want to use our time to discuss

things that we have already got passed through this House, but

sometimes you have to do that. Colum Eastwood. The SDLP's Alban

Maginness is with me now. We have managed without the Civic Forum

since 2002, why bring it back? Well, as John McAllister said today, we

need a critical friend in civic society to tell us where we are

going wrong, where we are going right and there is an added value in

civic society making its contribution, think of people in the

arts, think of people in trade unions, think of people in the

churches all making their voices heard, or particular lating concerns

within the community. For example, the flags controversy could well

have been articulated in a timely fashion within the Civic Forum. Alex

at wood made the point yesterday that several hupd submissions have

been made by Civic society to the Haass talks? Well, there is an

appetite out there amongst people who are not politically involved,

who want a say in the shaping of our future, who want to contribute

something to the political process without entering the formal

political process such as the assembly or councils and therefore,

this is a vehicle, this is a method in which they can express their

views. What do you make of Lesley Cree, we need another elected,

Parliamentary organisation, like we need a hole in the head. He wasn't

enthusiastic. Stephen M outrey pretends that the DUP aren't working

under the Good Friday agreement. As for the Ulster Unionists, shame upon

them for going back on the Good Friday agreement and saying that the

Civic Forum is not part of the agreement. Do we need another level

of expensive bureaucracy? The cost in 2001/2002 was ?425,000, the

following year it was ?328,000, that was ten years ago, so today the

costs would be that and more. There is a limit to the amount of public

money that's available? Of course, there is a limit and you can

introduce economies in relation to any institution, but I think it is

money well spent whenever you are giving a voice to people in civic

society and it is not a disproportionate cost particularly

if you compare it to the money that we are throwing away on flag

protests, and on policing generally and this could well have avoided

that situation arising in the first instance. In a sentence, can it

happen? Will it happen? Well, it can happen and there is an appetite

there in civic society for an institution such as this.

Well, we will see. .

There were several violent incidents over the weekend. A 15-year-old boy

was shot in the legs in Coleraine, a pipe bomb thrown at police in

Strabane and the Alliance Party's office in East Belfast attacked with

petrol bombs. This morning the Assembly united in condemning the

attacks. A combination of those events make it very clear to all of

us that across the community there are people whether they be loyalist

or Republican or people not affiliated in such a way that they

want to try and drive us back to the past. This community has to be

absolutely clear, not just in its unity of opposition to such attacks,

which of corks we will demonstrate today, but to take that unity

further to ensure that those people who have carried out these attacks

cannot do so again because they are ap rehelpeded by the police, they

are brought before the courts and they are convicted and put in

prison. One thing all these attacks have in common is the fact they were

committed cowards. People who are not prepared to stand for election,

but done in the shadows. The attack on the Alliesance Paefrt in east

Belfast was reprehensible. The language and actions of some elected

representatives in our community have in my opinion fallen short of

what is required from them with regards to the support for PSNI and

the rule of law and democracy. Anyone who is harbouring any

individuals in relation to any of these incidents need to realise

very, very clearly that until people who are involved and are behind

these attacks are taken of the our streets that it could be any member

of our community, any member of any family in our community that could

fall victim to these attacks. We are disappointed what happened over the

weekend. It is very, very important that the community knows that there

is no support for this type of activity out there in the community.

These people are not presenting any alternatives. They are, the people

want to live in peace and they want to move on. The people car cing out

the attacks have nothing to offer the people of this kunl. Role rain

this morning -- Coleraine this morning, certainly was a wake up

call. A 15-year-old child, whose house entered at 5am by hooded men

with revolvers and baseball bats at a time when grown men should have

been in their beds preparing for a day's work. If as politicians and

many in this House did, you support the undermining of the rule of law

by the early release of prisoners and you diminish the status of the

rule of law, then you cannot be entirely surprised that subsequently

others follow in that mode of diminishing and discrediting the

rule of law. The TUV leader, Jim Allister. Well

the winter has begun to bite with temperatures set to drop tonight

-and the response of the Roads Service to the challenge of

maintaining key transport arteries was on the agenda during questions

to the Minister for Regional Development. But given that snow is

forecast, would the minister agree with me that there must be many

dairy farmers wondering how they are going to get their milk tankers on

to the main roads? And how they are going to get feeding stuffs in? My

department is on alert for the winter preparations and my

understanding is a yellow warning has been issued by the Met Office

for later this evening and into tomorrow. And it is also indicating

strong winds or gales for potentially Wednesday. So we are

into the winter season very much and in general, road service will

continue to provide the services that it can. I can tell you that we

have resources of something in the region of over 100,000 tonnes of

salt. We have 300 operatives. It is a major operation. We don't have the

resources to salt every road and I know that that is an issue even in

my own constituency as we have heard, but the resources are there

for financially not unlimited to us and we make the best use of them and

I think, I want to thank and encourage all of the operatives who

will undertake this important work on behalf of the entire community in

this winter season. Can the minister tell us what consideration he has

given to extending free car parking charges to places like Enniskillen?

Where a town wishes to avail of a special period of free parking, the

council in that area can negotiate with my department to provide such a

facility to the benefit of rate payers and the member has cshl

influence at Fermanagh District Council and he will want to bring

that to bear so it happens in Enniskillen and other areas. It

happened in Newtownabbey Council made similar arrangements for

Ballyclare. Christmas shoppers will use their car, it is the preferred

means of transport rather than buses, rather than bicycles or

walking. Is it not sensible to extend the moratorium on

restrictions to the motorist in Belfast city centre in the run-up to

Christmas and particularly at weekends, can I suggest abandoning

the bus lanes? The evidence of increased bus usage in the centre of

Belfast carrying even more passengers consistently over one

million-and-a-half more journeys made last year. The increased level

of train journeys, and I think a great many people do indeed access

the centre of Belfast by using public transport and I welcome that

and I had the opportunity not last weekend, but the previous weekend to

be shopping with my wife and family in the centre of Belfast and I found

it a very good experience. I think there is a buzz and hopefully a

Christmas buzz. Danny Kennedy, outing himself as a

keen Belfast seasonal shopper. Just before we go, I'm joined again by

our political correspondent, Martina Purdy. You were keeping a close eye

on First Minister's Question Time today. Were there any hints that we

might see the Welfare Reform Bill soon? Well, the DUP asked that

question today and Peter Robinson said he wasn't able to say when the

Bill was coming back. He said it would require cross party support.

The Bill, he said, isn't what is contentious, it is the draft

regulations that accompany it and he doesn't understand why the Bill

can't proceed. He did confirm that the elements of the deal that are in

place include a concession that those already on housing benefit

will not be penalised for having a he spare bedroom. That's good news.

The Speaker is very fond of asking MLAs to move on, but it seems he'll

be taking his own advice next year. Yes, the political editor at the

BBC, Mark Devon port reported that William hey will be stepping out

from the assembly and he has been in the Speaker's post since 2007 and

the expectation is that Sinn Fein's Mitchell McLoughlin will be stepping

into that role. No confirmation yet about who will be replacing William

Hay though. That's it for tonight. I will be

back at the same time tomorrow night. Do join me then. 11. 20pm on

BBC Two. Bye.