24/10/2011 Stormont Today

Hello and welcome to Stormont Today, the best of the day's business from

the windswept and rain-soaked Assembly. And if the constant rain

is getting you down, let your MLAs lift your spirits with fine debate

and high rhetoric. Coming up on the programme:

New rules for appointing special advisors are unveiled. What we have

done is we have made it clear that the walls on appointing special

advisers have been tightened. People have complained about

whether or not those who are appointed are competent. The method

they are appointed by has been changed as

The prisons challenge facing the Justice Minister is laid out in

stark terms. It prison officers want good management, they have to

be prepared to be managed. There are new ways of working.

And with his own expertise in that field, Professor Phil Scraton from

Queen's is with me. Our prison service is too expensive

and under effective. That's the view of a report which has been

described as a watershed moment for the prison service. Professor Phil

Scraton has written extensively about our justice system. What do

you make of today's report? I think you could look at the report as the

pinnacle of a series of events that have gone back over the last six or

seven years. There have been reports after reports, plus the

inspections. They have bought more or less said the same thing. The

prisons are not fit for purpose and the staff within the prison are

demoralised. There has been very little replacement of staff. The

management itself has not been up to scratch, and we have seen that

over and again with some spectacular cases and big issues,

and also the accommodation. It is a boy for and in parts it is

completely unsuitable and breaches international guidelines for

prisoners. I think that that combination of factors, plus the

lack of will, lack of political will to change. A lot of that is

the legacy of the conflict, but there has to be changed now and

this report, this review in actual fact, is going to be the catalyst,

I hope. Dame Anne Owers carried out the

report. She described the main changes that need to be made.

immediate priority is back to basics. Getting and the prisons

running efficiently and properly. That is a staging post. The real

goal is to get to a prison service that can be a model of good

practice and can work with prisoners to increase public safety

by tried to get them to change and not to offend when they get out.

That is what we should be aiming for. It all needs to be geared

towards that one aim. Our does our emphasis on rehabilitation can

their hair to England, Scotland and Wales in terms of rehabilitating

prisoners? There is less good work going on in prisons. There is good

work going on outside, but in prisons one of the problems is that

the regime has not been consistent enough that you can get prisoners

to activities. There is a bit big learning centre at Maghaberry that

prisoners cannot get to. The UCB Prison Officers' Association of the

management as a key stumbling block to the changes? In it is both. You

have to have a good and effective management of prisons and there has

not always been the space for that. I think that is improving at the

top at -- of the service. At the other end, you need to have the

willingness to be managed. Prison officers need to be prepared to be

managed, especially with things that are not comfortable. There are

new ways of working, perhaps maybe worrying because it has not been

done before and that is why the development and management of staff

is so important. The issue over the time that people spent on a remark

has become a big issue today. Just to us what you would like to see.

We need to cut down the amount of time spent on remand. One in three

prisoners here have not been tried. They are still innocent. That

compares with one in 10 in England and Wales. One of the things that

helps in that, and that has been around for a long time, is having a

statutory time limit between when you get charged and when you go to

court. So what is a sensible time? Different time limits for different

cases. If you are looking at low level cases, youth justice cases,

it should be in a matter of a few months. Obviously with serious

cases you need longer because unique to get the evidence and

witnesses together. It is not a one size fits all and it is not

something that should happen immediately, but if you do

something like what the youth justice advice to do, do with young

people quickly, and that works you can make up the system. We have not

suggested any time limits because they would need to be what is

suitable to a particular case. this give you hope and optimism

that there will be built change? is my hope and optimism that the

issues are understood. The review is - that the review is

comprehensive. It singles out Maghaberry as being one of the most

complex. It recognises that it cannot go on in the way in which it

is. However, Maghaberry is for long-term prisoners and I think the

issue around longer term prisoners is that they have to be accessible

to their families. On the one hand, the review says they want it to be

close and move to an urban centre, but it also says it is not possible

and it should be refurbished. I have been at my Gilligan on a

number of occasions and there is no way that present should be allowed

to stay open. If we are serious about cohering families around

prisons, we need to make them more accessible. Thank you.

Northern Ireland has yet another world champion. Not a golfer, an

athlete nor any other sportsman. But a bricklayer. The information

that comes out during question time, and that nugget was from Stephen

Farry of Employment and Learning. But first, let's hear the Acting

Deputy First Minister John O'Dowd, who may well have been holding the

fort for Martin McGuinness for the last time. Here he is answering a

question on that perennial topic, the past.

The recent debate on dealing with the past in this Chamber

illustrated the range of views. We are a post conflict society. We

need to find a way it for what that is sensitive to the victims and

survivors in our society. There is the value in making the process

objective and inclusive. I am conscious there are other views and

I don't want to be presumptuous of prescriptive in saying how

discussions will take place. It remains this department's

intentioned but the voices of victims and survivors will be heard

and their needs met. Could I thank the acting Deputy First Minister

for his answer. But could I ask him to reflect on what was contained in

the Bradley Report in terms of dealing with the past? And up what

he and the First Minister not address this issue on the basis of

that report so that they can be a truly comprehensive approach by the

Office in relation to dealing with the past and the Office no longer

it ducks the issue, but get stuck in and develops mechanisms that are

necessary to heal the wounds in this society. It is certainly not a

case of a lot of this ducking this issue. It is a very important issue

and affects members of our society deeply. We want to make sure we had

the right mechanisms going or what. The Member refers to the Bradley

Report. I note the comments of the British Secretary of State in

regards that report. I can assure the member that the way forward

should not be prescriptive. We want to make sure that the way it

forward meets the needs of victims and survivors. With reference to

public confidence, can he advised the House on the return of the

former Deputy First Minister, how will confidence be enhance? When he

was giving evidence to the Bloody Sunday inquiry, he claimed he had

taken an oath of secrecy to the IRA. What is the chance of getting any

It is quite clear that everyone is going to have to play their part in

shipping our future, part of shook and that future is going to be how

to deal with our past. I have no vote that the Deputy First Minister

will play his role in ensuring that the society can move forward, to

start delivering a new future for this generation, without forgetting

the past. Employment and learner, and the future of St me these

teacher-training college was on the agenda. -- St Mary's. I am just

wondering if the minister is committed to supporting its

sustainability? Would he consider delivering students to the

university? I am certainly very conscious of the importance of St

Mary's in the context of his constituency, and the member will

be aware that there are a number of issues pertaining to future of

teacher training within Northern Ireland and I am giving active

consideration to all of those. There are other aspects to it, as

well. I have a meeting with the member and his colleague and the

principal of St Mary's, soon in the future. Assured future has long

been a central plank Alliance Party policies which should be no problem

for Minister Barry, to underline what he's doing to make it happen.

It should lead to the creation of a former Shia future policy proofing,

in addition to current forms a policy proofing, this mechanism

would be applied to all future of departmental policies to assess if

they will lead to a share society, or inadvertently reinforced the

visions. Those policies that then towards separation will be avoided,

whilst those that arnica or which will advance assure future will be

fairer. This will be broader than the current aspect of quality

prevent. I believe these changes would represent a ground-breaking

development, in terms of the policy-making process and

demonstrate a commitment to Ayrshire future by my department

and others. And finally a tribute to a world champion. We have a

number of people in Northern Ireland, we have the world champion

gold medallist in terms of bricklaying, coming from Northern

Ireland. This is testament to the strength in depth we have in our

young people. He Steven Farry, there. The First Minister has found

an extra �40 million for the Kohl ownership housing scheme. The

department will help got an extra �25 million to buy specialist it's

an stops animals need denies that as part of the October monitoring

Brown, where money that has not been spent by departments is

reallocated. And the minister had this warning for banks that do not

play ball. We do not want to put money into the corner sheet scheme

and then think people can get money from the coal ownership scheme and

then cannot get one over the other percentage is to purchase the

property from the banks, and for that reason, after this debate or

statement is over, the banks, representatives from the banks will

be in this building, making a commitment in the briefings they

will give to the press, on their willingness to participate in this

scheme and make money available, through this scheme, and also

working with the scheme to ensure that every is any duplication of

the way in which things are process, then there is a need for banks to

delay the process by doing the same betting as the scheme, the same

conditions that are laid down poor loans, and All those issues have

been discussed with officials. This is only one aspect of bank lending,

of course, we're talking about. In the engagement with the minister

for the St, and that I have had with the banks, we met them between

making this decision and announcing up today, we have found that most

of them have been positive, but of course, and we have made this clear

to the banks, not only do we want a commitment today, for them to

advertise their products they will make available to people, but we

will be monitoring just how that is delivered. This is great news today,

isn't it? An injection of any amount of capital into the system

of government is good news. We have not patting to study these plans

fully. There is the �10 million available currently, providing 125

homes. This will provide an additional 170. People are still

required to provide a 5% deposit and, more importantly, to secure a

75% mortgage which is where the difficulty is, with the bats.

banks were here today with Sammy Wilson, having a meeting, and he

seemed to suggest they would play ball. The existing scheme has

certain anomalies where if you have borrowings in the region of fight

�1,000 for a car loan, or at bit of any kind of �5,000, you're out. So

and there is a bit of work that could be done round the edges.

we go to a system where there are 400 people on a waiting list been

chosen on a lottery system, at random, surely any system to help

some of those people at least get onto the property ladder and into

safe homes is a good thing. We for the last several months the number

of people applying was less than the supply. We have a lottery

system at one stage. And the unavailability of mortgage finance

rather than the corner should scheme was what prevented people.

The last couple of issues, there were you're applications than we

could find finance for. What else could Sammy Wilson do about this?

He is the finance minister. It is not for me to tell him what he

should do, but the way to stimulate the economy is to inject money into

the bottom end of it because it will come out at the top. If these

were new build houses that stimulate the housing market. It

might well be that it is properties that have been lying around for

some time, and that will help get people House's but it will not

stimulate the economy. He hoped at 450 new houses would be built every

year for the next several years. We're already through the �15

million coal ownership scheme providing 425 houses. My entire

family whose -- entire family history was in housebuilding, and

that is gone now. The skills that they depended on are gone and the

market that they service is going and it will take a good deal of

effort to bring it back. Planning has to be right. And financial

functions of the banking system have to suit the needs of the

business. The Justice Minister David Ford revealed a few weeks ago

during question time that 80% of inmates on -- at Maghaberry were on

some form of prescription medications. Last week the Health

Minister hear more about prisoners and their health issues. And the

ongoing issue of the police ombudsman was discussed. But we

start with health. Many prisoners suffer from anxiety and depression,

personality disorders and serious mental illness, suicidal ideas and

self-harm is prevalent. Providing treatment and a correction

environment is challenging. There is a significant need in relation

to mental health. Up to 5,000 prisoners, including sentenced and

demand prisoners used health care services each year. The figures

outline highly level of need. Some 1,000 prisoners will have

personality disorders. 130 will have psychosis, 750 have some form

of neurosis, 12 will have tried to kill themselves in the last seven

days, 110 will have thought about that within the last seven days.

160 prisoners will have tried to kill themselves in the last year.

712 people will have an addiction and fight on them 45 will have an

addiction to alcohol and drug problems. Many inmates are

receiving prescribed medication and stock in many cases, the Docks

prisoners take our for their said that there were tranquillising

effects, rather than for physical ailments. Attempts to manage this

clinically are received with hostility. Over 90% of complaints

received relate to medicines management. The administration of

medicines to such a large population in the security tight

environment is it time consuming for professional staff, and given

the levels of Ilka starting, it makes it difficult for us to

conform to best practice. Sometimes 60% of mustn't think Candy taken

over the administration of medicine. I percentage of prisoners have a

history of alcohol and drug misuse and stops some of the youngest

prisoners and we want to harder drugs in present a stock to help

them escape detection in prison prisoners are a high risk or

opposed on discharge and many of the drugs smuggled into prison are

very dangerous compounds. Any other business? It is in two parts. In

relation to the ombudsman, the evidence given to the committee on

the September the it, first of all, he can recall someone who has given

evidence which was misleading or unsatisfactory. People might have

an opinion on his performance in his role, but my opinion is that he

told us... A is this going to take us much other forward on the issue?

It is not the issue. What I am saying is, he told this committee

that he would have to check documentation, that nothing would

be changed without the evidence and he would have to get evidence and

when he was pressed, he asked his colleague who told them, I would

check. In no uncertain terms, there are no documents, so therefore, he

changed his opinion and changed the report, without documentation,

which he told us he would not do. If there is a particular area where

you think he might have misled the committee, usually, you would

highlight to remember that provided evidence where there might have

been an issue on asking him to clarify that evidence. If you are

suggesting that he is recalled to do it, I would be content that we

would like to him and say, you is an issue that some members are

highlighted, can you explain? If it comes down to the issue of

indicting him back, I don't want the question your motivation for

that. I think it would go beyond that particular issue and it -- it

would be another if up to try to apply pressure for him to resign

his position. We heard about the problems of prescription drugs in

Maghaberry, so what about the mental health system in the prison

system? That has been criticised. The way that mental health is

tackled in prisons is one of the great scandals. One of the things

that we see is people go into prison with mental help conditions

-- mental health, and others contact them whilst they are in

there. That is about the way the prisons are set up, the lack of

appropriate support or help cure needs. It impacts right across the

board, on their families, or near communities and it is a barrier to

them when they are released. One of the issues raised today which was

spoken about strongly in the report was the fact that, since they

criticised the Prison Service for its lack of a patient and mental

ill-health, that is one of the key issues, and we know about the

stories of suicide, and will self- harm, which have been so prevalent

within prisons, particularly for women in prison, they raise these

issues, starkly, in Peggy, and they say that nothing has been done. In

that time there has been almost zero progress. That is completely

unacceptable. The finance minister Sammy Wilson says Sinn Fein has not

objected to a new system for appointing special advisers at

Stormont. Mark Devon port has been telling me more. There was huge

controversy back in May and June when the culture minister appointed

me in a Kabul as a special adviser, even though she had been convicted

for her role in the murder of a magistrate's daughter in 1984. Now,

that DUP said it was going to look at this. Peter Robinson asked the

Finance Minister has responsible for personnel around Stormont to

look at it. He came up with the review that was completed in June,

but it Hitler see the light of the until this week when it appeared on

the Assembly website. It's it's about a vetting procedure whereby

the justice agency would affect any prospective candidate for special

advisers, in the same way they book or senior civil servant jobs. I

asked the minister weather of that review had been applied then, it

with a stock the appointment of Mary McArdle. What we have done is

made it quite clear that the rules on appointing special advisers have

been tightened. It will be a proper procedure. People have complained

about whether those who have been appointed are competent, the method

by which they appointed, that has been dealt with, and the security

vetting has been dealt with, as well. So the rules are quite clear

and ministers will have to abide by them. Can these bills be enforced

retrospectively? Sammy Wilson says that this new system has been in

force since the 6th September, but he only foresees a crisis of there

is a new appointment that is going to be made and somebody potentially

has convictions. Sinn Fein has not objected to it so far, but they

will make the point that they cannot approve this. Lots of

activity you to a. What is all this about? Stormont does not work just

9-5. This function is for a group that stands for, where is my public

servant? It is a charitable group involving young people involved in

making films and being in contact and campaigning and lobbying with

politicians on issues of interest to young people, so they having

will launch. And I am here because I have got roped in as the compere!

I will leave you to the programme, What would you say is the priority

for the prison service? Or there needs to be more involvement of

other departments, not just the Justice Department. If we do not

get this right, what actually happens is we create a problem, a

greater problem for people who are in those communities. We will see

an increasing criminality. If we are serious about victims, we have