25/09/2012 Stormont Today

Welcome to Stormont Today. On the programme tonight, the protection

of victims or discrimination? MLAs debate a bill which will make it

illegal for a certain with a criminal conviction to serve as a

advisor. The Mary McArdle pinement highlighted a significant gap in

our law and as legislators, we either face up to it, or we ignore

it. Also on the programme, concerns over the future of children's heart

surgery in Northern Ireland. The health Minister says he prefers an

all-island solution and rules out a stand alone service in Belfast.

There's no realistic option which would permit a stand alone

paediatric, cardiac surgery in Belfast. People might not like that,

they might find it hard to accept. But that is just a factual

situation. Later we will hear from one mother who is campaigning on

the issue. Now an attempt by the TUV to

prevent some former prisoners from becoming Ministerial special

advisers took another step closer to becoming law after a private

members bill passed its second reading in the House this evening.

The bill was introduced by Jim Allister following the

controversial appointment of the convicted killer Mary McArdle as a

special advise tore the culture Minister. She was sentenced to life

in prison for the murder of Mary Trafrs in 1984. Young Mary Travers,

22 years of age, embarking on a career, full of life, and

enthusiasm and from everything I have heard about her, carrying with

her those same characteristics of compassion and humanity and great

gentleness. She was broughtly -- brutally shot in the back. Estate

agents cannot by law be estate agents if they hold certain

convictions. Solicitors clerks cannot be solicitors clerks if they

hold certain convictions. So why not special advisors? I say

that the Mary McArdle appointment highlighted a significant gap in

our law and as legislators, we either face up to it, or we ignore

it. People have a lot of difficulty with people - we have to move on.

Prisoners have to be reintegrated within the community, within

society. We can't turn back the clock. There should be no return to

discrimination. There should be no return to the days before the Good

Friday Agreement and we should really stop bringing legislation to

this House and debates to this House which are sitting uneasily

with members of the public and we should show leadership on these

issues and members of the exprisoners community, regardless

of where they came from, steps need to be taken to ensure they

reintegrate into society and play a positive role in our communities.

We as a party are sympathetic to the declared aim of this bill,

which is to tackle the issue of the appointment of Ministerial advisors.

In particular, the protection of victims of paramilitary violence

from appointment to office, of those who have caused death and

injury to their loved ones. However, Mr Speaker, that does not mean that

we give unqualified support to the bill. Sinn Fein appointed the only

person convicted of this murder to be a special Ministerial advisor.

That appointment was both insensitive and provocative. Some

may on first sighting perceive there is potential pher knit some

aspects of the bill. If indeed there is merit then it would

probably be more appropriate that the department itself would bring

forward such legislation as it would be more considered and

balanced and reflect policy elsewhere. Why I am supportive of

this bill is I do not want to have another victim suffer in the same

way. Undoubtedly, if someone else who had been involved in a

murderous act were to be appointed, they will come into the public

domain. The issue will be forced upon those victims' families to

relive the incident. Every time that advisor, because the advisors

are always close to their Minister might be caught on camera, or on TV,

they will relive that incident. think that this is an issue of

equality and it's an issue of fairness. I think if people are in

any way bringing any sense of honesty or integrity to this debate,

then they should state it for what it is. This is an attempt to

prevent Republican ex-prisoners from fulfilling the role of special

advisors and indeed the proposal of the bill -- proposer of the bill

has a long history of saying Republican ex-prisoners shouldn't

have any sense of ekwult and fairness -- ekwult and fairness and

this is part of that particular process. The way in which Sinn Fein

did deal with the appointment of the advisor to the Minister for the

department of culture, arts and leisure, great hurt was caused to

an individual. However, great anger was also caused in the general

community and I think that it was the way in which Sinn Fein

themselves handled the reaction to that that highlighted that they

really didn't get where the community was on these things.

finance Minister, Sammy Wilson, and Jim list Jim -- Allister is with me

here. Can we pick up on Sammy Wilson first of all, the finance

Minister, of course, put measures, guidelines in place to deal with

this issue sometime ago. Why do you think legislation is necessary?

Well, his guidelines so far as they went, have not been implemented in

the sense that Sinn Fein are refusing to operate them. Therefore,

since those guidelines came in last September, we have had two Sinn

Fein special advisors appointed who have refused to go through the

vetting procedures set out in Mr Wilson's guidelines and there is

now a standoff about that and consequence they're not being paid.

What I am saying is that we need to put on a statutory footing issues

like vetting so that rather than guidelines we have it in law what

is required, and therefore, there's no wriggle room for anyone and

these are special advisors who equate to senior civil servants,

they're vetted, so why not special advisors, that's one part of the

the bill. The hrepbl hraeugs you want to see -- legislation you want

to see would include a vetting procedure which is mandatory and

the current system couldn't be the case in a future scenario? Yes,

because the past year proves that Sinn Fein can thumb its nose at

those proposals and carry on with people with access to highest level

Government papers as special advisors and the guidance on the

vetting has not been implemented because they refuse co-operate on

it. I am saying they've brought this on themselves in that regard.

Let's get it on a statutory basis and do the other things that need

to be done on the bill. difficulty is that you got the

legislation, the proposed legislation through today 2-1,

majority of about 30 votes in the House. With DUP support, Ulster

Unionist support, and SDLP support. It's going to become mired in

committee stage now and there will be all sorts of horse-trading and

compromises and it may bear little resemblance if it comes out the

other end to what you put on the table today. Let's wait and see. It

has certain core principles in the bill. I am not hard and fast on the

exact detail. I can negotiate about minuteua but the principles are

important and the principles I hope will emerge the other side in tact.

Are you confident the DUP will continue to support new future?

Well, I can only judge by today, I had support from across the chamber.

I think the DUP has been using my bill as an attempt to trade-off for

Sinn Fein the threat of the bill to get Sinn Fein to sign up to the

guidance. It hasn't worked. If Sinn Fein did, would they back away from

my bill? I can't say that but if they did they would be backing away

from rectifying the situation which was created by the Mary McArdle

appointment and not creating a situation-- where that could never

happen again. I want a situation where an instoult a victim's party

that was perpetrated by the can never happen again. OK. There

are bigger issues potentially as well. The Attorney General

expressed concerns at a hearing last week the legislation could

contravene the European Convention on Human Rights because it would be

like a second punishment for an original crime. It's not a second

punishment. He He expressed some concerns about maybe Article 7 of

the convention which proheub its -- prohibits secondary criminal

penalties. This is simply establishing as a disqualification

from holding a post the fact there is a previous conviction. I am

quite happy with my situation because the bill is only on the

floor of the House. Not just because I say it's competent, not

just just because those who advise me, but the Speaker has been

advised by lawyers of legal service in the Assembly that it's kpe tent

and human rights compliant. other issue, your reaction to the

news that the newly appointed chair of the Maze development board sat

on the panel that conducted the first trawl for board members?

astounded that anyone could sit on a panel, fail to select anyone to

appoint anyone, then think they can resign from the panel, apply

themselves, and be appointed. You know, I do think there's an issue

here that the commissioner for public appointments needs to

examine. It seems incredible that arrangement could have been allowed

to pass. And we arrive with a board appointed in that fashion. There is

no suggestion that the two processes weren't entirely separate,

though, and that best practice was not followed. Let's hear what the

commissioner says. But I have to say, it does not bode public

confidence in the process if someone is sitting on a panel, a

panel doesn't appoint and then they themselves apply, come off the

panel and are appointed. You know, who advised him to apply? There are

all sorts of issues that just leave this wholly unsatisfactory

situation. Would you like to see the matter taken further?

certainly like to see the matter taken further and I think the

commissioner should have a say on this. We will see what happens.

Thank you very much. Now, after standing in for Carole

ne Killen at questions yesterday John O'Dowd was back this afternoon

for questions. As well as The Minister gave details of the new

Education Bill. He also responded to questions about a school in

Omagh which was destroyed in a fire It is hoped that the pupils will be

able to return to the school in January 2013. I have instructed

officials to investigate all possible options to allow for the

provision of new school buildings on the site as a matter of urgency.

I thank the Minister for his response. Can the Minister give was

more indication as to when the new build will commence on the site for

this school? I think it is important that this new build

commences as soon as possible. the member will appreciate, the

current situation is not of our making. The fire is continuing to

be investigated by the appropriate authorities. We were presented with

a catastrophe on the weekend before the school started back. The

concern was to identify premises for the children and young people

to attend. That has been achieved. We are now looking at the medium-

term plans for the site. Some of the buildings on the site can be

secured but there is a major clearance operation to take place

but a lot of damaged material, including asbestos giving us

concerns that asbestos was broken up and destroyed during the fire

and should be removed by properly qualified contractors. And we

continue to investigate moving the school permanently. I would like to

see the school constructed, and open, by 2015. What cross-border

co-operation is happening as part of this planning? Cross border co-

operation along the border corridor is important and we have passed the

education boards to look at this. Candy might provide education

services to the benefit of young people in the area on a cross-

border basis and will they assess they are rare plans? We will look

at that in detail, as well. We're conducting an attitude are no

survey along the border corridors to see if there is a demand among

parents and pupils to travel across the border. All of that will be

taken on board and we want to provide effective and efficient

access to education for communities along the border and that might

include sure resources on a cross- border basis. Can the minister

agree -- outline what the main benefits of their respect will be?

The main benefits of the Education Bill is that we will be modernising

how we deliver education within society reducing eight bodies done

into one, giving us a more modern, efficient, monitoring structure.

The monitoring of schools will be the responsibility of the boards of

governors, but overall, policy direction that we want to see below

what is that each of us will deliver policies set by the

department. We want to raise standards. There will be an

independent tribunal with the power to stock interference in schools. I

think we have achieved the bill, the bill allows us to continue with

its functions but it will not be the case that we have centralised

control, the boards of governors will continue to run schools. And

there will be a lot of autonomy for schools in their day-to-day affairs.

Workers at if you will son were told 760 of them would lose their

jobs. It was that turn of the implement and learning Minister

Stephen Parry to outline what his depart that order to out -- to help

those facing redundancy to find alternative employment. Officials

have been proactive in identifying up schooling opportunities and

alternative employment. They have worked with the company says it it

avows that was made in June of this year. We were put the Social

Security Agency, further education colleges and other agencies to

provide advice of alternative job opportunities, access to training

courses, careers advice, as well as a range of other issues such as

benefits and taxation. This redundancy advice service is

available to all on site to deliver a package of support to each

employee. It is vital that we not only retain the skills of the

workers, but we also need to formally recognised skills through

accreditation it necessary and, where appropriate to provide up

skilling up to meet the demands of employers. The department is

looking at the skilling staff through the college. The college

has informed me that as well as offering up schooling and training

it is undertaking a skills audit of staff, and likewise, Belfast

Metropolitan coloured has offered a range of support including job

search, careers information and access to training facilities.

Could the minister allow brake on the type of training programme that

could be available so that more of those made redundant will have an

opportunity to get new skills and regain implement? We need to

understand exactly who is going to be made redundant. But is why I am

stressing the point of the skills audit. The further education sector,

which has a very good track record in terms of Engineering, is well

placed to provide refresh your courses and conversion courses for

stocktaking the general skills that people have and the training them

with specific skills that companies wish to take advantage of, of staff

the deploying. What sort of liaison is there to make sure that other

employers looking for the type of school set that exists in the

affected workforce can avail themselves of those people with the

right kind of grinning? We need to have a very smooth set of

communications around all this. We have to make sure we have a number

of different agencies with different specialist functions all

pushing in the one direction or. And we avoid duplication of effort

which adds complication and stress and makes more difficult for if she

wasn't in terms of managing this process. There is an ongoing and

active discussion between all the relevant agencies. Even within my

own organisation we're trying to set up a single liaison point with

the company to make sure we are handling this as smoothly and

efficiently as possible. Minister, can you tell us if you are

satisfied with the Northern Regional College and other

education providers that they will have sufficient resources made

available to them to deliver on the promises that have been made to a

significant number of employees who, regrettably, are losing their jobs?

I thank Mr Dixon Bono those comments. This is a very serious

matter when people are losing their jobs, and it is important that we

place people with the right skills in companies and to encourage those

companies to crawl, and to flourish, and just to stress that Northern

Ireland has a real future in terms of manufacturing. Talks with

Northern Regional College are ongoing and those issues to be

ironed out are about how we take forward training. I give the House

a commitment that the wall out of these programmes will not flounder

on the issue of money and argument over the sources. And unambiguous

commitment from their employment and learning Minister, Stephen

Parry. Child heart surgery has been discussed on an All-Ireland basis

but before a final decision is made the minister wants to consider all

the options. Here is the motion's proposer. Each year 140 children

require surgery. Most of it is done at the Royal Hospital. Another -- a

number of others are referred to other sectors in Dublin and England.

The review was published in July it will like and it found children

here with congenital heart disease are well served by a dedicated and

experienced team of doctors and nurses. It did not identify any

immediate safety concerns with the current arrangements. But the

report that conclude the surgical element of the service in Belfast

was not sustainable. The review recommended the potential safety

risks be addressed within six months and that would mean a

paediatric cardiac services will have to stop within six months, too.

In England and Wales there are criteria that paediatric Kardex

surgery centres should be within three years troubling time by

ambulance. Clearly that is never going to be the case with children

from here travelling to England. Firstly they cannot travel by land,

it would need to be air transport, but in English review they state

that travel cannot be relied upon because opera whether, as we have

seen this, today. Our Travel is seen as acceptable, or unacceptable

for children in my England and Wales but is suggested as suitable

for children here - what is the difference? Children and families

would not need to travel by air, but would be within a reasonable

distance of their own home and families. He would have thought

they would give more time to understand the needs of this region

and, given that this region is part of an island, it is not a political

point I am making, it is an geographic fact, and best nation

has clinical collaborative networks in this area of medicine that they

would have thought about talking to hospitals in Dublin. Is this the

way to seriously review such a critical clinical service? The safe

and sustainable quality standards suggests the criteria to maintain a

centre in Northern Ireland would mean the service should be staffed

by four full-time consultant congenital cardiac surgeons. The

service should perform a minimum of 400 surgical procedures a year with

the recommended number being 500 and that the service must provide

enough staff to provide a cool 24 hour emergency service. What

legally can plight rotas including cover by a consultant paediatric

cardiologist. It is clear that with such small demand a region this

size cannot hope to sustain such a centre and it should be clear that

safety concerns have not been raised about the quality of care

that patients currently get. The issue is on sustainability and

future safety of the services to be left -- have it is to be left as it

is. I cannot ignore the views of imminent officials as some members

of the sow's wish me to do and that would be a very bullish

recommendation to make. It is incumbent upon me, as minister, to

take appropriate steps to address the concerns. And in so doing, I

want to have a clear appreciation of all the options available for

the delivery of this service to children in Northern Ireland

including an All-Ireland solution, with the Republic of Ireland, but

it is necessary and appropriate that I acknowledge that there is no

realistic option which would permit a stand-alone paediatric cardiac

surgery in Belfast. That is the clear analysis by the relevant

experts and is the view of the service commissioners. People might

not like that and find it hard to accept but that is the factual

situation. The Health Minister. Listening to that is the chair of

the heartbeat trust parents group, Katie Boyd. The minister was clear

about that. He does not think the stand-alone service in Belfast is

an option. Do you accept that? do. The preferred option is an All-

Ireland solution. We would like to protect and enhance surgery in

Belfast so that we have some form of surgery in this country and also

increased links with our Lady's Hospital in Dublin. From your point

of view, what the minister says is good news. The worst-case scenario

for us would be cardiac children having to have been a sort of air

travel. Because this review suggests that that is not a good

option because there is this magic three hour period, and that is

usually problematic for children from Northern Ireland, specifically.

Surgical centres must be able to insure an ambulance with suitably

qualified staff that can travel within three goals and that cannot

be guaranteed if the ambulance is coming from a centre in England

because there has the Irish Sea to contend with. And air travel itself

is not 100% reliable. Absolutely. In document it states that air

travel is not consider as an option for children in England and Wales

because it is not reliable. Why should it be considered for

children here? The worst-case scenario is that the minister would

try to impose an English solution to Northern Ireland, but he seems

to not to want to go down that road. He seems to want to create a

completely new solution to this problem on an All-Ireland basis.

Absolutely. Sir Ian Kennedy and his team in this report were working

from the criteria set for England and Wales, so England with its

population of 60 million, Northern Ireland with its population of 1.8

million, we need the minister to address this situation in the

Northern Irish context. You are satisfied at the moment? At present.

Thank you for joining us. That Ms early story concerning Terence

Brannigan as chairman of the knees long case development corporation,

a statement has been released on that saying that was a Brannigan

was a member of the initial competition for the post and it was

we run and he applied for the position of cheer himself. The

commissioner for public appointments ruled that he was

entitled to apply and should be treated in the same manner as any

other candidate. The panel insured on the commissioner's advice that

questions were not the same as those posed in the first