The Leaders' Debate The Leaders' Debate

Tonight, five party leaders determined to win your vote.

Can their policies and pledges convince you to back them?

Our studio audience put the questions.

I'll make sure they get direct answers.

Welcome to The Northern Ireland Leaders' Debate.

Hello and welcome to The Leaders' Debate.

There are just 36 hours to go before the polls open for the Northern

Ireland Assembly election and with us tonight,

looking for your votes, are the leaders of the

Three of them are leading their parties for the first time

They are: Arlene Foster, who became the first woman to lead

the Democratic Unionist Party, just over four months ago.

Colum Eastwood, elected to lead the Social Democratic

and Labour Party just over five months ago

And Mike Nesbitt, leader of the Ulster Unionist Party.

Completing our line up are Sinn Fein's Martin McGuinness

The questions tonight come from our studio audience,

most of them party supporters, but we've also made room for people

who haven't yet made up their minds about whom to vote for.

It's a pleasure also to welcome viewers across the UK

If you would like to join the discussion, you can tweet

Our first question tonight is from Michael Palmer, a clerical officer.

Why does it matter who is First Minister? Well, a question that's

taxing a few people. The DUP has said it would be a seismic shock, a

devastating blow, if Martin McGuinness of Sinn Fein were to

become First Minister. Why is that, Arlene Foster? It's very important,

and that is why we are here tonight to decide and put forward our cases

to the people of Northern Ireland so they can decide who leads Northern

Ireland in the future. It's very important who is First Minister, not

just in terms of symbolism. Whoever the First Minister is is leader of

the largest party and gets to pick first in terms of ministerial

appointments, and they probably pick the largest number of those

appointments. That's why I put forward a 5-point plan with the

vision of a safer and stronger Northern Ireland, and I'm looking

for people to return as many DUP candidates as possible on Thursday

so I can lead the country in the future. There might be differences

in approach on how Northern Ireland moves forward, but why is it a

devastating blow if it's not just an appeal to sectarian vote? Not at

all. I went across Northern Ireland with a very positive 5-point plan

that I put across early in the election campaign because I wanted

people to relate to the plan and ask questions about health, education,

jobs, infrastructure and household taxes. But you couldn't put a

cigarette paper between those five points and the first five points of

Sinn Fein. I think you would find Martin had a fundamentally different

approach to the union, and we heard a bit of that from his conference a

couple of months ago. Conor Murphy has said the fundamental point about

chin fame is a united Ireland. We have seen posters around Northern

Ireland in nationalist areas saying we want to get to a united Ireland

so Martin Hazard completely different vision for Northern

Ireland to mind. -- so Martin has a completely different. Martin Kaymer

you have said you are not hung up on fancy titles but if you were the

leader of the largest party, you would like to change the title to

joint first ministers. But you would love to be the largest party. I

think any party standing here tonight would like to be the biggest

party. Sinn Fein is no different. We are probably the most progressive

party in the executive. The most progressive party in the Assembly.

I'm not fixated by titles. When I went to the Department for Education

a long time ago, all these civil servants were trained to call me Mr.

I said I would be happier if they called me Martin. -- call me

Minister. I want to deliver for our people. I think if we are loyal to

the Good Friday Agreement, as I am, or in Arlene's case, the St Andrews

Agreement, what we have doesn't work, unless we have the ability to

work together. I am very determined to work positively and

constructively with all the readers around here tonight to build a

better future for the people we represent. I think the Fresh Start

Agreement we have signed up to in November last year gives us an

opportunity to move forward. Some of the doom and gloom messages that

came from some people about how disastrous it would be if Martin

McGuinness was First Minister, it's nonsense, because in reality unless

we... Let me put that to the Ulster Unionist Party. I'm a Democrat, and

accept the democratic vote we will get on Thursday. Of course we

accept the democratic vote we will want to be the largest party, but

the DUP are engaged in dog whistle, scaremongering. In north Belfast

they have a Zabaleta saying your vote could send us back to the bad

old days. What are the bad old days? Apparently they do not apply in

Lagan Valley because it's not mentioned there. Arlene says she has

a 5-point plan but Peter Robinson had one of those this time last

year. What happened to that Northern Ireland plan the DUP has published

in the meantime? What Arlene has is a five wood plan. Do not mention

Peter Robinson. -- five word plan. APPLAUSE

The Ulster Unionists one point plan is to make it work, make Stormont

work. That's what I hear on the doorstep. There are different

versions of the letters because we have sent three different letters.

Back to the bad old days? That was one of the versions, yes. Let's talk

about the bad old days. Unlike Mike Nesbitt, I remember the bad old days

of pushover unionism. I remember in 1998 when we had a concession to the

IRA. I remember what happened in relation to prisoners and what

happened to the RUC. The bad old days we talk about is the bad old

days in relation to pushover unionism. And is that for every

constituent? Yes. It would be a big disappointment to you as the other

main nationalist party to have Sinn Fein as the biggest party, but would

it be a disaster? No, because I'm a Democrat, and it doesn't matter who

the First Minister and Deputy First Minister is. I have said all along

its a joint office. We would not have signed up to the Good Friday

Agreement of it wasn't a joint office. It doesn't matter is above

which door plate. What matters is that one in four of our young people

are still living in poverty. It's easy for you to say that because the

chances of you becoming the biggest party are pretty slim. That might

well be, but this election isn't about who will be first and Deputy

ministers, it's about the fact that for nine years we have not lived up

to the hopes and ambitions of the public. That needs to change. That's

why we need to begin to work together and look at the next two

weeks after the election and put forward a programme for government

that works for people because they are fed up of failure. People are

fed up with immigration, politics not delivering, and this type of

politics where people are shouting people down about who will be First

Minister, it doesn't matter. It matters what we deliver for people

on the ground. David Ford, is it a distraction? Looking at how the

executive functions, they are co-equals. The only difference is

who shakes the Queen's hand first when she comes to visit. It might be

symbolically important for some people, but it doesn't matter for

the other 306 to four days of the year. It's quite sad that this is

the third election in a row where the DUP's campaign has been based on

the politics of fear, not looking forward, but looking back. And this

discussion, we are looking back to the bad old days, not looking

forward to the future or growing our economy or building a united

economy, or meeting the needs of our children to stop them emigrating.

It's about who's the biggest. That's not what the people of Northern

Ireland want to see happening. Martin McGuinness. First of all,

Sinn Fein did not begin this debate about who will be First Minister and

Deputy First Minister in the aftermath of this election. That

debate was started elsewhere. The question has come up in recent times

and the media have asked the question of Unionist politicians,

what would they do if Sinn Fein was returned as the largest party? I

don't have any doubt whatsoever, that if that transpired to be the

case, that every single party around these podiums tonight would accept

that. And we would get on with the business of trying to deliver.

That's what it's all about. It's about recognising that this place

doesn't work unless political leaders have the ability against the

backdrop of the agreements we have made in the past, the ability to

work together. Colum Eastwood talks about the last nine years. Let's do

that. I want to stick to the specific question. Arlene Foster,

you have said that power-sharing is difficult but a price worth paying

for progress. Martin says if he became First Minister, you would

accept it and press ahead with what has happened since the Good Friday

Agreement. I want to go back to Mike's point about it doesn't matter

what the first managed it is. Tell that to your party strategists. It

says on your posters to make you the First Minister. No other party is

requesting that. Today, Northern Ireland is a stronger... A letter

written by Mike Nesbitt. This is the letter he is referring to which is

apparently negative, but it's very positive, setting out the agenda and

the 5-point plan, which is why we should back DUP candidates across

Northern Ireland to put that plan in position. If the DUP hadn't fiddled

around with the Good Friday Agreement... They didn't fiddle

around with it, as well you know. On that particular point, it was put in

by the government behind our backs. Which you signed up to! Know it was

not. It was in the law which followed Saint Andrews. I think you

need to know, looking at the St Andrews agreement. This is all total

and absolute nonsense. If you were a member of the public sat out there

tonight listening to this nonsense, you would be inclined to turn off

your television. What we need to do is get away from this and recognise

that as political leaders, people out in the community want us to work

together. They want the Fresh Start to work. Colum Eastwood talks about

the last nine years. SDLP have not signed up to one budget in the last

nine years. SDLP voted against the Fresh Start Agreement. I think the

vast majority of people out there... We saw it 45 minutes before... You

were well aware of the issues. I was astonished to see... Colum Eastwood

is trying to sidetrack from the main issue, which is this. We as

politicians have the ability to work together. In the aftermath of this

election we want to move on, deal with the issues of jobs, skills, the

health service, education systems. We will talk about all of these.

Finish your point, Colum Eastwood. Martin talks about the Fresh Start

Agreement and I was leader of SDLP a couple of days before that came in.

I was given the Fresh Start Agreement 45 minutes before we were

asked to vote on it. The result of ten weeks of intense negotiation. Is

government? I don't think it is. We would not have signed up, no

government? I don't think it is. We how long we had, to handing power to

the Tory party in London over future welfare cuts. We would not have done

that. How long after the conclusion did you see it, David Ford? 45

minutes? A bit longer than 45 minutes but we knew the general

thrust. I'm beginning to feel like a spectator. It's David Ford's turn to

speak. Every singer parties saw the Fresh Start Agreement. Mr Magennis,

you will have time to speak. I'm just a spectator. If you want to run

Mike versus Arlene and Martin just a spectator. If you want to run

against... We saw the fresh start a bit before that. We were

against... We saw the fresh start a the discussions which happened, but

what fundamentally failed in the Fresh Start Agreement was that we

didn't meet the needs of the victims Fresh Start Agreement was that we

of the past. It was meant to be Fresh Start Agreement was that we

issue and we failed utterly. We will come to that, and I might text and

comments from the floor. Why does Northern Ireland have to be Unionist

or nationalists, Catholic or Protestant? At the end of the day,

young people like myself are looking at these politicians thinking

nothing will ever happen. We are still stuck in the past. Why? I

think if the DUP had kept their promises five and nine years ago, we

wouldn't have had project fear this time. I'm quite happy to talk about

my achievements. The text of the St Andrews agreement says that the

joint Andrews agreement says that the

Arlene. How many DUP MPs rejected to it when it

Arlene. How many DUP MPs rejected to There were none. They didn't reject

to that clause. You had to go down the whole agreement. It deliberately

diverts attention away from real issues. Bread and butter issues that

people have to deal with. But you are in my 5-point plan. We will move

onto some of those now. Martin will have plenty of time to talk. The

next question from Valerie a part-time student and charity

worker. My question is, what proposals does your party have two

deal with the waiting list issue in the health service?

400,000 people on our waiting list, it increased by 37% in the 12 month

period ending last year from 170,000 people in December 20 14th, to

236,000 people in 2015. How do we solve this, Mike Nesbitt? Throw

money at it? No, because we have been throwing money at it and the

stats are as bad as you recite, and in some cases worse. After the

previous health minister, the number of people waiting longer than the

maximum target time was something like 15,000. Today 120,000 people

waiting longer than the target. The money being thrown at it recently is

a short-term fix which isn't working. It is also sending the

money into the private sector. I would rather pay the doctors and

nurses and staff of the NHS who cherish it to help fix it. Colum

Eastwood, the DUP and Sinn Fein are saying we will put an extra ?1

billion into health by the end of the term. No one quite says where

that money will come from, is that the kind of policy you will be

backing? That would be great. We are spending ?5 billion on it at the

minute. I think we need to take politics out of health, we need to

get together and work out how we will tackle the fact there are

400,000 people on the waiting list, the fact that elderly people get 15

minutes home help every day. We need to address the fact that people in

parts of west Belfast will die younger than people in south

Belfast. We have to stop people getting sick first of all, get

people treated in their own community through community

pharmacies and investing in GP services. I'm sure no one will

disagree with that, you're talking about ?83 million to cover that,

consolidated pay rise for workers, where will that money come from? We

have spent a huge part of our budget on health, we need to prioritise it

differently. It isn't good the waiting list is going up and up. I

think we need to get back to the idea of transforming care, which was

about treating people in their community, not about cutting

services around meals on wheels, cutting home help services. We need

to tackle the fact people who are living in the most poor communities

have the worst health outcomes. That's how we change it. We have to

stop beating each other up, get together, and take politics out of

it. David Ford, you said to meet the demand of the health service you

would need an extra 5% of the budget every year. That is clearly not

going to happen. We need a much greater integration of health and

social care so that we deal with people in the appropriate place. We

need to depend more on professionals than politicians. You have seen the

row that erupts every time a proposal is given to change the way

the service is delivered, and yet what we have is not efficient.

People may go to a different hospital, but if that is what gets

things better... We need to look to what the experts recommend. We have

an international expert panel, we need to get the politicians away

from second guessing that and listen to what the experts say. We also

need greater joining up of -- across different department. We need to

look at a range of other issues that affect the demand on the health

service. Arlene Foster, your manifesto talks about ?1 billion

into the health service by the end of this term of government five

years from now. You talk about a transformation fund of 30 million a

year, employing 1500 more nurses, increased mental health spending...

It is a great wish list, but again, how are you funding it? If you look

at our manifesto, the billion pounds is the only really significant

amount of money we have talked about, because we want to prioritise

health. It would be the first thing on the agenda. I am heartened to

hear Colum talk about taking politics out of it, we need to get

those fundamental principles agreed so we can move forward. Not just in

terms of more money for health, and we do accept more money is needed in

health, but also we need to have reformed. David is right, we need

more integration, and that's why when we come to how we design the

programme for government, we are looking at our -- outputs. I think

the public will welcome that way of thinking and it is something we can

work on together. Martin McGuinness, you also talk about 1 billion extra

for health, talk about putting more GPs into first year training. Again,

I ask you the same question. Where does this extra money come from? It

comes from us ensuring that in the aftermath of election we will have

agreed a programme for government. No individual political party will

know which department they are getting. That will be a real

negotiation for all of the parties around here tonight to agree a way

forward. It is quite interesting that the DUP and Sinn Fein think 1

billion over the next five years is doable. I think it is. Tell me in

detail how that would be achieved. Because there is always

opportunities through monitor rounds, opportunities through money

that comes back from individual departments, to ensure that we can

deal with it. Along with what is also during the course of that

period, there will be Barnett consequential is. We have budgeted

for it and we think it is doable. In the course of this conversation, we

have I think all agreed that as we go forward we need to have a united

approach and the opportunity is now presented by this expert from the

Basque country who has been charged with the responsibility of bringing

a report which we all collectively have to take Sirius late because

this is about the wellbeing of our people. This is about how we tackle

poverty, how we deliver first-class public services. The key to that is

not the privatisation route, it is the regular route of the NHS. Mike

Nesbitt, you said we don't need any more reports we need action. There

has been five years of failure. From what you hear from these other

leaders today, are you encouraged? Would you take the health minister

for example if it came your way? Would you take the health minister

take the mandate into the negotiations and a programme for

government. In our manifesto in 2011 we called it the

government. In our manifesto in 2011 idea that rather than going straight

to form a government you idea that rather than going straight

entitled to be in Government sit down and try to agree that

entitled to be in Government sit for government. To take one example,

if we all agree we should tackle for government. To take one example,

whoever gets the Department of Health knowing wealthier children

will do well at schools... Would you take it is the question?

will do well at schools... Would you take anything. Can I just say,

Martin McGuinness says poverty is the enemy. The DUP and Sinn Fein in

the last mandate promised to spend ?80 million tackling poverty by the

end of March last year, and at that deadline they had spent ?1.5

million. 78.5 still not spent. He's talking about

million. 78.5 still not spent. He's fund and Mike needs to get out more

because I have had the opportunity to visit some of the

because I have had the opportunity have benefited from it. We now have

because I have had the opportunity ?800,000 going out to a Cathedral

Hall, which he voted against in the budget. I think it is a shame the

Ulster Unionists decided they didn't want to give that money because it

has made such a difference. The money which was to be spent by 2015

will now be spent by 2020, a programme that has overrun by five

years. Would you take health, David Ford? We are in danger of having a

bidding where everybody says they are interested in every department.

We have to see what we can agree, how it ties in with individual

parties' priorities, and how we get greater joining up around the

executive table. Traditionally the health Ministry has not been grabbed

as the first one on offer. I wonder if it is something of a poisoned

chalice. We are going into an election, let's let the voters

decide what will happen, then we go into a two week negotiation. We want

to tackle immigration, stop people leaving society, invest in young

people, invest in universities, begins to turn around health

outcomes. We will support a government that does not. Whichever

ministry we take, that is up to the period of negotiation. The lady at

the back. I would just be interested to know if any of the leaders would

agree to increasing supporting people funding which helps over

17,000 people in Northern Ireland, and it takes a lot of money away

from the health service because we are helping people in homeless and

sheltered... Is this a charity? No, it comes from the Government but it

has been capped for the last eight years. It means with things like

paying our staff we need that to be increased. Lady at the front here? I

have waited three weeks on a GP appointment, I have waited 12 hours

in A, I have waited 19 months for an appointment that I still don't

know what it is and then I was sent to a private hospital. We need to

listen to the staff, we need to listen to the people already in the

hospital is working every day going through hell. I have family that

work there too. It is great having these reports but we need to listen

to people on the ground. I second that we need more support for

working people but why if the DUP sail for getting politics out of

hell, why can a gay man still not give blood? -- politics out of

health. Just respond to this young man. It is a risk issue, and Simon

Hamilton made it very clear that he was assessing it on the risk element

and on the science and it was nothing to do with anything other

than that. That is the case and it has been proven. I think it is

absolutely wrong that citizens in our society are treated differently

in Northern Ireland... Even if there is a recognisable health risk? There

is no recognisable health risk, that is nonsense. If I was in a car

accident tonight, would I care where that blood came from? Would I be

delighted that somebody who was gay or otherwise had given blood to save

my life? For far too long our gay community have been discriminated

against. People have ridiculed them, they have made fun of them, and I

think it is time that every single politician stood up for their

rights. What has happened in that regard is discrimination, it is

wrong and it needs to end. Mike. Of course Lord is screened and if I

needed a pint of blood to save my life I would take yours and vice

versa, I hope you would take mine. -- blood is screened. If the

scientific evidence is against the men giving blood in Northern

Ireland, there is some money scientific evidence in Wales and

England. Our next question comes from Trevor, an administrator. Why

did the fresh start legislation not provide policies on helping victims

of the Troubles? The Fresh Start agreement was agreed

in November 2015 after 20 weeks of talks, drawing Northern Ireland back

from another crisis over welfare reform and other issues. It seemed

to solve the welfare reform problems, talked about reform of

politics in Northern Ireland, but didn't come up with an agreement

over helping victims and survivors. Why not? It wasn't just the Fresh

Start Agreement that failed victims, we have failed them since the Good

Friday agreement was signed. It's not good enough to say just to move

on. I come from a generation that does want to move on. Many of them

do not want to talk about the past and that's understandable. But we

are imprisoned by the past, the victims to walk among us, who have

suffered because of our past, they have been left behind. We need to

get round the table immediately after the election and solve the

problems that are left in these institutions will stop and it's more

than institutions. State actors need to come to the table, paramilitaries

need to come to the table and tell the truth. What's stopping the

British government from telling families the truth about what

happened? What's stopping the IRA or anyone else what happened to their

loved one or anyone else. We need to fully braced this process to allow

us to move on and allow those who have been hurt to be freed from the

past. Arlene Foster, a trauma centre said that parties could no longer

say the suffering of victims was central to moving forward in

Northern Ireland, they were abandoned and betrayed by the

failure of the Fresh Agreement. The Fresh Start Agreement had a

comprehensive package to deal with the past. It was all there, and it

was an issue between Her Majesty's government and Sinn Fein, and that

is where the Fresh Start Agreement in terms of dealing with victims

fell apart. It's a question for Sinn Fein and how they related to that.

We have taken the issues of victims very seriously. We had the largest

ever budget for the victims and survivors sector last year. I'm very

proud of that. That doesn't mean to say we have not to do more, of

course we have to. Coming from my background, I want to say to victims

of the troubles that I will not allow the past to be rewritten in

anyway that makes victims feel traumatised again. That's

anyway that makes victims feel I feel strongly about and something

I will protect in the next administration. Mike Nesbitt, on the

security forces, Judith Thompson, security forces, Judith Thompson,

the victims commissioner in Northern Ireland, said that national security

should Ireland, said that national security

uncomfortable facts. I agree. I think if there was political will a

solution could be found. It can be found in hours instead of weeks or

days. Before this job I was a victims Commissioner, so

days. Before this job I was a first issue I wrote a policy

days. Before this job I was a wish. I think what went wrong

days. Before this job I was a is that these political talks take a

very narrow view of dealing with the past. It's only about truth

very narrow view of dealing with the justice. Truth and justice is

incredibly important for those victims who seek truth and justice.

But we know that not all victims are the same, and some do not seek truth

and justice. Some people have physical pain as their problem, and

they would like a special pension because they couldn't work or

contribute to national insurance or to a state pension. I would like

that recognised. The big issue is mental health and well-being. It's a

huge legacy issue. I have taken it to Downing Street, Dublin and

Washington. 200 and 80,000 people suffering says Judith Thompson. Why

are we always saying nothing is agreed until everything is agreed?

We could go back to Downing Street and say because it's a legacy issue,

there are no Barnett consequences, give us money to deal with the

mental health and well-being of the victims of the Troubles in Northern

Ireland. Let's do it irrespective of whether we agree on truth and

justice. If we do that then we are saying to people that we can do

something for victims. And then we give ourselves the momentum to go

back and maybe solve the other more difficult issues next time. David

Ford, a story in the news today, said Declan Morgan said his plans to

fast-track over a five-year period was blocked at the Assembly. The DUP

have said it was going to have a serious impact on our ability to

address the needs of serious victims and might be addressed post election

in budget. Does that show there's still a long way to go on agreement

over victims and survivors issues. You might have to ask Arlene that

question. There was a specific set of proposals to deal with victims in

a report. We failed to address it in the Fresh Start Agreement because

there was failure to reach agreement, but the two governments

and the two largest parties signed up to it. In the meantime we have

been working with the judiciary to put forward specific programmes to

fund the legacy interests and because of good work done by the

Lord Chief Justice and other justices, it has been blocked in

that the executive has not agreed to the request for funding that would

one have been requested from the Treasury. You need to ask other

people why that happened. Victims, when they thought after having

conversations with senior members of the judiciary, thought they would

get a deal at last, they now seem to be left back in the lurch yet again.

I think that's an absolute tragedy that the group of victims for

something could happen provided for them, nothing has been given, and as

the Lord Chief Justice has said, the timetable could now slip. Martin

McGuinness, Nigel Dodds, Arlene, Nigel Dodds, who has given this

statement about the executive's ability to redress the needs of

innocent victims, does that smack of hierarchy of victimhood? What we

need to remember, for Colum Eastwood's benefit, the Fresh Start

Agreement was supported by friends of Ireland on Capitol Hill, by the

Obama administration, by the Irish and British governments, and by the

DUP and Sinn Fein specifically. It was a very important agreement. I

don't think the issues of victims should be used as an excuse not to

support that agreement. It is a very important issue. There are victims

right across our community. Why did it not come up with a policy? What

you have to remember is that against all expectations, all the parties

agreed the structures and mechanisms to take forward a menu of options

for the different requirements of victims out there on all sides of

the community. You mention the Lord Chief Justice, and a met with him

some time ago when he put his approach to me. I know he met with

others as well. At the end of the day, the responsibility for funding

the inquest to deal with families who were victims of state violence

resides with the British government, and the money that was agreed during

the course of the Fresh Start Agreement to fund those inquests.

None of us blocked it out executive, and the responsibility resides with

the British government. Was it blocked at the executive? Did the

DUP block it? That's what's on the news tonight. You are Deputy First

Minister, you should know. I gave my assent to the funding for those

cases to be heard. Under the plan put forward by the Lord Chief

Justice. I think what has to happen is the British government need to

deal with that issue. What we need to deal with in the aftermath of the

election, is the last piece of the jigsaw. And it is only one last

piece, which deals with the issue of rotation national security, which

was an attempt by the British government to effectively cover up

the activities of state forces over a very lengthy period of time.

Theresa Villiers has been on the record on a number of occasions over

the last few months saying she believes that can be resolved. Where

is the paramilitaries will come forward and say what they did and

why they did it? I think everybody has to come forward, British state

forces, those involved in armed groups have to come forward. It is

not a genuine process unless there is a desire to do so. Speaking for

Irish republicanism, we are determined to make sure the needs of

victims are met. You said at the bloody Sunday enquiry you couldn't

go against your oath for the IRA to give details. I went to the bloody

Sunday enquiry at the request of the 14 people murdered on the streets of

Derry. Lord Savill accepted every single word I said. He exonerated

the IRA, and he put the finger of responsibility for what happened on

the streets of Derry fair and square on the British Parachute Regiment.

But there could be some sort of law of silence meaning you couldn't say

what the IRA did. What does that say? The Lord Savill situation dealt

with that situation. We are now in a new place where all the leaders

around this table have agreed the mechanisms and structures. I want

those mechanisms and structures to work and I'm prepared to play my

part to ensure they do work. And I have confidence that the needs and

requirements of many people in the victims community will benefit if we

put the last piece of the jigsaw in place. On addressing the needs of

innocent victims, Arlene Foster. Unfortunately a lot of those

innocent victims feel their voices have not been heard recently and

there has been an imbalanced in relation to state killings as

opposed to paramilitary killings. I was rather concerned when I heard on

the news tonight about this story. The paper did come to OFM, DFM, and

I felt I needed more discussion around it. I was surprised to hear

executive business talked about on the news. I was even more concerned

when I thought the judiciary might have brought this story forward.

There is a separation of powers between the judiciary and executive.

I think we now know, having listened to the panellists, where the story

came from. We just need to find out in particular where the story came

from today, and I regret that. It's executive business and it hadn't

been discussed and I wanted the opportunity to discuss further with

the Lord Chief Justice around the issues of innocent victims and how

we can deal with their issues. I make no apology for that. I think

the rights of innocent victims are key in all of this. I will not allow

any process to re-write the past on what happened in Northern Ireland.

I'm fundamental in that and it will not change before the election or

after. The Lord Savill transcript quotes Martin McGuinness as saying

there are certain things about the IRA he wouldn't discuss under any

circumstances. Correct me if I'm wrong. You may well be right, but as

I said earlier, that was then and this is now. In the intervening

period we have established power-sharing and I want that to

period we have established important, as much in the community

I come from, as the community Arlene comes from. I know there are

different narratives. comes from. I know there are

right in regard to the argument. But we are in a different place now

where we have these institutions and I want them to work. I have proven

myself in particular circumstances which affect me, I will contribute

in anyway I can towards which affect me, I will contribute

There are families tonight, many of them have waited 40 years, been

through the years and waited 40 years for some sort of truth and

justice. Tonight they are being traumatised again. I sat with them

when Reggie Weir was doing his review and they were very happy this

stuff had begun to change and they had seen the Lord Chief Justice

setting about a process of addressing their ROMs. They have

been put through the mill time and time again. -- they're wrong is.

state forces when he talked about inquests.

state forces when he talked about inquests have nothing to do with

state forces. I'm not sure what Arlene's remark was meant to mean. I

was rung up by a Department of Justice official a few minutes

before 5pm to be told the BBC had a story that did not come from the

Department of Justice. Questions and comments from the floor. The

gentleman at the back. This will be my first election that I vote in.

People my age, quite frankly, are tired of hearing about the past. I

grew up nearly my entire life Post-troubles, so I've no experience

what that is like. How long will it take? I recognise that to move on we

have to deal with it. The Fresh Start Agreement, headed by the DUP

and Sinn Fein, it has not been dealt with. Who has been protecting Martin

McGuinness for 40 years? The British government. I can't say anything you

were told, because we can't stand over that clearly.

I was just wanting to address the question to Martin and ask will you

disclose information? You don't seem to directly answer the question. I

think he said there were certain things... I have made it clear in

all interviews I have done in the past that any situation that

directly affected me... I think you have made yourself quite clear. I

moved here from South Africa ten years ago and we are constantly

being told this country needs to move forward. You are all standing

here repeating the same things I have been hearing for ten years. I

come from a country that managed to implement education overnight. Why

does my daughter have to be on a waiting list to get into an

integrated school? Can you explain that to me? This gentleman over

here. I think Martin McGuinness' mask slipped. I'm not going to let

him come the British soldiers, they wouldn't have been on the streets if

it wasn't... We will never finish that, I take your point. I would

like to ask Martin, will Jerry like to finally admit he was in the IRA,

may be considered deleting his Twitter account? -- Gerry. Can I

deal with the question about integration? No, the question was

about dealing with the past. We are going to move onto the next one. Our

political parties seem to trade on negativity. What examples can the

panel show about how they can work together to provide a better example

for our society as a whole? I think I have shown through my record in

the Department of the Environment, Finance and personnel, that I will

work with colleagues to provide a better future for the people of

Northern Ireland. In terms of the Department of enterprise trade and

investment we set a target of 20,000 jobs over the last mandate and

promoted 42,000 jobs. There were 17,000 redundancies announced over

the period of the last Assembly. You have to balance that out, don't you?

That's correct but if we hadn't created 42,000 jobs... So I don't

know what the point is you are trying to make. The point is the net

result was that I was something like 20 plus. What I think is important

is we have delivered in terms of economic development, we have

delivered in terms of tourism as well. We now have the tourism

industry that is continuing to grow right across Northern Ireland. We

are bringing more tourists to Northern Ireland whether that is for

golfing events, music events or the Titanic centre so we do have a lot

to celebrate in relation to the last mandate. When the cameras are turned

on it is always the same sniping at each other. I think it is a fair

point. People ask questions and we have to respond to them. If you ask

us about how we are working together in economic development, we can talk

about the fact we have gone to the USA with my former party leader and

brought jobs to Northern Ireland. We have helped bring investment in

Northern Ireland but unfortunately we don't get asked about that, we

get asked about the difficult things that cause division and I regret

that because I would love to talk about the successes more.

Martin McGuinness. I think people have to and probably do understand

that we are dealing with the unique nature of the Government we are

involved in. Different ideologies, different allegiances, and we are

society emerging from conflict but there is a huge responsibility on

all the files to work together to build that better future -- on all

of us. We have been buffeted by activities in recent times, the

extremes of loyalism, the extremes of republicanism. Yet during the

time of world economic downturn we managed to bring in more investment

jobs than at any time in the history of state. I worked with Ian Paisley

for one year, we had all sorts of reasons not to like each other,

because of my past, because of his past, but we actually developed a

positive working relationship and we developed a friendship that lasted

until the day he died. I think that was remarkable. I have worked with

Peter Robinson. We had our differences but I regard him as a

friend of the peace process. I have worked with Arlene over the course

of the last nine years and I regard her as a friend of the peace

process. There's no reason we cannot work together and face the

challenges that our community are dealing with in a way that provides

solutions for them. I have confidence against the backdrop of

the Fresh Start agreement in the aftermath of this election that we

can continue to move forward and deliver for everybody in our

society. Mike Nesbitt, you and the other smaller larger parties have

complained that they might be working together but they are not

working with anybody else. Is that the valid criticism in light of what

they have said? I think it is. You look at the trade visits, the visits

to Washington, you don't have the five leaders in the executive

standing shoulder to shoulder. This effectively for the First Minister

and deputy five -- Deputy First Minister. In terms of collaborative

working, I am the first chair since 1998 to bring through a piece of

legislation through a committee. Not a lot of people know that committees

can pass legislation, a lot of people know that committees

because very few do. It was a challenge because there were bits of

the Sinn Fein ideology, bits the Alliance and the DUP wanted to

challenge but I was able to get it through and I will stand by what I

said in Hansard about my leadership during the course of those debates.

It is difficult to work with those parties to achieve things. Let's not

forget politicians are not wealth generators. Our job is to create the

environment in which you as wealth generators can create jobs which

will give us the taxes to run our public services. A couple of things

I would do differently, we undervalue the social economy and

there was a great return on investment in the social economy. If

you look at persistent long-term unemployment the biggest single

problem once again is mental health and wellbeing so if we tackle it, we

get people off benefits who don't want to be on welfare and we make

them economically active. The question is about working together

at the Assembly and counteracting the negativity. Are you as

optimistic? I am always optimistic, I do think we can work together. The

SDLP is founded on the idea of partnership. It doesn't mean I'm

going to be quiet though if I think things are not going well. We are

going to let the voters decide what happens and when we are going to

have a two week negotiation. happens and when we are going to

it is a break from happens and when we are going to

We will have a two happens and when we are going to

and stem the tide of immigration. That's how we begin to

and stem the tide of immigration. the fortunes in our economy. Colum

doesn't really know what he wants to do because on the one

doesn't really know what he wants to telling people he is fighting this

election on the basis of being in Government but on the other hand he

saying that will depend on the negotiations that take place

saying that will depend on the the election. Let people speak, it

is not a coronation. With all of the challenges and problems we face, and

the reality we will have to negotiate between us, a programme

for government that meet the needs of our people. I am going into

for government that meet the needs government. David Ford. Not like the

South, where they have refused to go into government. You must let me

answer that. You have had plenty of time. I'm going to let David Ford

speak. I can give time. I'm going to let David Ford

working with the Department for Education, on the juvenile Justice

Centre, I worked with Simon Hamilton in health in prison so there are

positive examples. We are not very good at getting the executives

collectively working together. When I took the job as justice minister

in 2010 it was on the basis that Martin and Peter Robinson agreed the

Alliance proposals for the programme for government for justice. That was

done in advance of me becoming minister, that's the way it should

be done because in fairness to them by and large they have stuck to that

deal for six years. We need to get that negotiation done right so we

have an agreed programme before people are in their posts. Is two

week 's enough to do that? If people put their minds to it, they can do

nearly anything in two weeks. We told the electorate before the

election we would not going to government... You knew it was only

Parliament available. Colum talks about new politics and him being a

new leader. The Irish government told us... Are you afraid to let me

say this? The Irish government told me at the very beginning of the

Fresh Start agreement that no matter what we agreed it was their view

that the SDLP would not sign up for it. We signed up to the agreement

before that, and what is Martin saying, that we should have listened

to the Irish government when they told us to hand welfare powers to

the British government? I was cut off last week when I asked a

question to the leaders about young people, I want to know what your

party will do to protect various language speakers. We won't have

time to discuss that. Arlene mentioned 42,000 jobs were promoted.

How many jobs were created rather than promoted? And are they better

paid than the last ones? And last one? I think we have an

institutional problem whereby we have community leaders and not

politicians that are willing to take difficult decisions, and we need to

move away from this divide and conquer politics. How many jobs were

actually created? I can give you the numbers for last year, 9500 jobs

were created. 73% of them outside of Belfast. How many in the west? The

west is outside of Belfast. Thank you.

That's where we leave the Northern Ireland Leaders' Debate.

As always, it's you who'll decide the fate of all the parties.

Thanks to our guests, our audience, and of course