The Spin Room The Leaders' Debate

Hello and welcome to this special Spin Room programme.

For the next 40 minutes, we'll be analysing and reacting

I'm Tara Mills, and for the past hour we've heard the big five

parties give us their take on the issues they believe

will make the difference when the polls open on Thursday.

There were some lively exchanges between the DUP and Sinn Fein

on the race to be First Minister - and plenty of debate

around job creation, hospital waiting lists and dealing

I'm now on my way across this courtyard to another BBC studio.

Waiting for me there, are the leaders of the smaller

parties who'll be giving me their reaction to what they've heard.

We also have an audience of young people, commentators,

and representatives from the public and private sectors -

Did you hear anything tonight to make you think the next mandate will

be different? No, is the short cancer. There was nothing there that

would give me hope things will change. -- is the short and serve.

-- short cancer. What would you do differently? We

had one MLA, Steven Agnew in the last assembly, and we need to look

at how we can effectively use that position to create positions. Steven

Agnew past a private members bill, the children's bill, and that looked

at how we try to make our executive more functional. In terms of betting

outcomes and results for people. It's now legislation that it's

required all ministers have to work together and plan together and

strategise together when they are going to be putting forward any

plans for all children and young people. We will like to see more of

that collaborative working together. A success from your point of view.

We'll come back to some of your social issues in a minute. Jim

Mackay is to, do you think things will be different? No. -- Jim

McAllister. The fact is, there was a shambles, and squabble in Stormont

over the last five years. We must judge these parties on collective

responsibility in government on what they have done, not on what they

promise. It is easy to come into a studio tonight and pretend they have

created the failure and would give us a fresh start. The electorate are

not foolish. They know these are the five parties who delivered the

failure, squander and squabble of the last five years. All of that is

crying out for change. It is crying out for an opposition to make

Northern Ireland stronger, yet we are in the crazy position where we

are only part of the Western democratic world where to date we

have not been allowed in opposition. We go to vote on Thursday, but it's

the only part of the world where you can't vote a party out of

government. You can't change the government. Until we change that

issue and moved to voluntary coalition where parties who fail can

be exited from coalition by the government, we will never have

stable and Europe will government. TUV have been the stable voice of

opposition in government. -- stable and durable government. David

McNarry, can you see a situation where we take politics out of

health? I think the people who have been watching that programme will be

very happy that on Thursday they have Ukip to vote for. Because they

have no choice whatsoever going with that lot who have just entertained

us for an hour. Absolutely the same old stuff and same old thing. Four

of those parties are actually going to support David Cameron and Obama

staying in Europe, yet they want to be ministers in a government in

Northern Ireland. How can they do both? The electorate are telling me

on the doorstep, and I will be telling everyone on Thursday, that

you can't separate the referendum from this election. They are crucial

together. We're talking about the Northern Ireland Assembly elections.

You will not be standing, but what can your party do that is different?

Tell the electorate something that is different that you would do. What

we would do is be there. We would do what nobody else has been doing for

a long time in politics in Northern Ireland, and that is to hold the

five big parties, the cosy club, to account. But the same argument not

go for those who have gone before? The five big parties with one MLA.

You are taking up my time and I will not take up yours. He voted in 23%

of the votes in the last Assembly. When we talk about opposition we

need to grasp the nettle, who will effectively do it? You are coming

out as a one-man band, Jim. Better than a no man band. It's good to

have an opposition to create solutions to problems. There is no

sign of an opposition, it's a phoney opposition and the people don't want

that. That's what we are faced with. We are faced with people wanting

action. Everybody knows what the problems are. All we hear, time

after time is we will fix it. People are looking forward to the fix. You

mentioned the children's bill brought in by Steven Agnew. What

else is on your agenda for the new Assembly? Going back to creating

solutions and listening to the people, a politics that represents

the people who elect them. Steven Agnew also brought forward the first

debate on marriage equality to the Assembly. At the time it was not a

majority support, but it was larger than I think we were expecting at

the time, and we were delighted to watch how that progressed. It didn't

come up tonight. But it passed, got a majority vote of support the last

time it was debated. The petition of concern was brought in. That is a

problem as well, but it's good to have that support. We are not afraid

to bring forward those issues for discussion. We are also the only

party in assembly Mac to support the 67 act in Ireland, again, something

that didn't this evening. If Sinn Fein got 30 seats, do you imagine

you would be hindered in the future if you were re-elected, that they

would use the petition of concern to stop you getting some legislation in

the future? When I brought in the bill to remove a convicted murderer,

Sinn Fein being the friends of IRA murderers, if they could they would

have stopped it. She was a Sinn Fein adviser, an IRA convicted killer.

One of many IRA convicted terrorists sitting in this government and

supporting this government. Absolutely not. Absolutely yes,

there are terrorists in this government and on the benches of

Stormont. There are parties who claim they are for the innocent

victims, who sustain them there and will return as joint First Minister

in the future. David McNarry, when it comes to the future, what can you

offer, give me a concrete policy you have to make the lives of people

watching tonight different. The policies Ukip are credible on the

doorstep with, are talking about the pain, the waiting lists for

hospitals. You say in your manifesto there would be no waiting lists. How

would you achieve that? I hope you are not going to do what another

programme on the BBC tried to do recently. We made it clear in the

manifesto, we are talking about removing the appointment waiting

lists. Unless you get the appointments out of the road, you

will never get down to the procedures. What we are saying is,

we need people. I was talking to a man not so long ago who, like

myself, at a back injury. He waited 48 weeks to get an appointment. That

has happened to a lot of people and we have covered that time and time

again. What would you do about it? If you want people's votes you have

to be specific about it. I would like to see politics actually

talking as if what we run here is a business. We get a lump of money,

and we can't manage it. We need to manage our own affairs, manage our

money. We need to actually say, if I was there health minister, and you

are right, I'm not going there, but some people from Ukip will be there.

By some choice of the people. The first thing I would do is call in

all my officials and say to them we will fix this now. We will not have

reviews and enquiries. We will fix it now. Jim Allister, if you would

answer the question on health, what would you do to make it better, but

it has to be brief. First of all, this executive disastrously reduced

hospital beds by 10% and then they are surprised by the queueing in

A People on trolleys. I would get the money by cutting out of the

squander, the 130 million we squander on useless outsource body,

the millions squandered on wining and dining, the 5 billion per year

paid to spin doctors. -- 5 million per year. We take our cut and put it

into health. Your manifesto was about promoting but not much

concrete detail about what you would do to make things better for people

in the health service. I would like to see a more comprehensive look on

health and well-being in general, and not just that critical care

point. The last executive were talking about taking 330 million out

of our budgets. I would want to impose corporation tax. That kind of

money needs to be put where people really need it. We should start

looking at health and well-being, be focused on that. We need to take

advice from experts, support junior doctors, stand by what they are

saying, and stop the privatisation of the health service. We can join

our audience now to hear what you have to say. You were heavily

involved in transforming your care. How do you feel about the debate

over health and the idea we might take politics out of health? I'm

delighted to hear the politicians want to take politics out of health

care. The SDLP seem to have moved their policy position. It's a right

sign to focus on integration, addressing health service

inequalities. The reality is how we will do it, and we have not answered

those questions. We have had expert review after expert review, and they

all say the same thing. We know what the problems are. The question is,

how we will transform a service that has been essentially the same over

the last hundred years. It needs radical transformation. When it

comes to your expertise, the idea that the DUP and Sinn Fein promise

extra money, is that doable, is it the right way forward, or should we

do Donaldson suggested? It's actually just addressing health

service inflation, it's not giving more money to health. The issue

isn't about giving more money, it's about radically transforming how we

deliver services. We need to move away from acute services and put

money into the community. We have an integrated health and social care

system which wasn't clear from the politicians. We know the system of

integration we have isn't working because social care is the poor

relation. It's money is plundered to help the health service. We need to

put social care at the front of the agenda. Also with integration, we

need to think about it in terms of mental health and education systems.

The education systems should deal with mental health issues and make

sure children have resilience. A GP at the coal face, what do you think

they need to do? I have been a long time at the coal face and I was

interested to hear politics taken away from hell. I wanted to hear

that for some time and it's good to hear the politicians agree. They

haven't said how they will do it. We spent almost ?5 billion on an

illness service and we haven't addressed life inequalities. Take

the bus up the road, if you live at the bottom end of it you will die

ten years before somebody who is at the top end. That's wrong. Isn't

that about poverty? Health will not deliver good outcomes on its own. It

needs to work with all the other sectors. Looking at what happens

with the integrated service we have, throughout my career, care of the

elderly, learning disability, children's services and mental

health have been plundered to support secondary care. We need to

look at different ways of doing things. The model of delivery is

wrong. We need to look at different ways of teaching our population how

to use the service. We have to respond to need, not want. We have

to ensure that those who have needs are addressed rapidly and quickly,

but the emphasis should be on health promotion and disease prevention.

What do we spend on it, less than 2% of the 5 billion. That's wrong.

Politicians have not come up with solutions, lots of sound bites and

good stuff, but I want answers. A health correspondent, did you hear

anything in the debate tonight to make you think health would be

treated differently in the next mandate? I think the most radical

thing we heard tonight was that all the politicians were unified in

their approach for change, saying to take politics out of health. That's

what Simon Hamilton, the current health minister has been calling for

prior to the elections. It is also what a professor is urging all

politicians to sign up to. Two of the parties said that up until

recently, the SDLP and Ulster Unionists, saying they thought it

was nervous, they thought it was a risk to sign up to the Professor's

principles, but we heard tonight all the parties saying it was the only

way forward. I thought it was quite refreshing what they said. I have

never heard such a unified approach from all the parties. It might have

been signed bytes, but for once they said to do something about it. --

sound bites. Colum Eastwood said to talk about health inequalities and

we haven't heard that before. If they did what they said tonight, it

actually could make a difference, and we could see politics taken out

of health and help going off in a different direction in the new

mandate. Glad to see you are so positive. We can hear from Mark.

Will any of these party political leaders we have listened to make

headlines tomorrow? Or will they be consigned to the small print of the

inside pages. I'm joined by three of Donegal's Street's finest. You all

very welcome. Suzanne, what jumped out at you from the debate?

Stop very little, and that is what worries me. There is very little to

energise young voters or people who haven't vote to come out and vote

again. Did you see any obvious winners and losers? No, the entire

campaign has been exceptionally dull, so there has to be concerns

about turnout this year. If there was a moment here, it could have

sparked something. I think people are talking more about Gerry Adams'

tweet than anything that came up in this campaign. Do you think Mike

Nesbitt appear to be making some effort to be more aggressive and

push Arlene Foster? He had this five word plant, don't mention Peter

Robinson. I think he possibly borrowed that from someone else, but

he undermined the DUP campaign that they must keep him out at any cost.

I think the DUP campaign undermined that themselves. It is difficult to

both say you have to keep him out at all costs because it would be

chaotic if he were to get in and at the same time say we are governing

coalition, working together. Alison, our other contributors seem to think

it was a yawn fest, were you falling asleep? I thought it was

entertaining. In reality when you vote for the DUP you are voting for

a DUP Sinn Fein coalition because that is what will happen. I think

they miss read the electorate on that because really what that is, it

is vote for us and keep the DUP out. I have seen from their manifestos

there is very little between them. It was a bit of a loving. The

aggression was between Arlene and Mike, and Martin McGuinness and

Colum Eastwood. You have got this kind of business and you had it in

the recent elections, like two parallel election is going on, and

we talked about some of the exchanges between Arlene and Mike.

There was a huge amount of pressure on Colum Eastwood's shoulders going

into this tonight. I think he came out the winner. He's a very polished

performer, he enthusiastic. I've rated Martin McGuinness compared to

Gerry Adams in these scenarios, but there seems to be the single

transferable speech from him about the benefits of Stormont and pretty

lacklustre. I thought Colum scored points in terms of bringing up

poverty in Belfast. I think his party particularly fighting marginal

seats will be very happy with his performance. David Ford sometimes

gets marginalised but he was involved at times, particularly in

relation to Arlene Foster accusing him of leaking the story. She gives

the impression she was surprised about that which I don't think is

entirely correct. It doesn't look like it will change in the new

mandate. Maybe they won't be fighting against each other so much,

but the smaller parties will benefit because nobody stood out. And one

question in which Arlene stood out, the question about blood donation. I

don't think she was expecting that and it looks like she was caught on

the hoof, other than that was very polished this time. In a previous

debate she stumbled at the start where was this time she was on point

apart from what she said about this question. We must leave it there,

back to you, Tara. Let's talk about jobs and the

economy now. Was there anything that gives you hope for the future? To be

honest no, we were all a bit disappointed three quarters of the

debate through the debate and no mention of the economy or business.

We got to the statements about inward investment book from a small

business owner's point of view I felt let down. What would you like

to see them do? Small businesses have been unacknowledged as the

backbone, and we would like to see more help given to us to expand

business, move onto that medium size, really grow the expertise

within our business and appeal to more skilled staff to come forward

for better jobs. John, you are in economics and business editor, what

sort of things do you think were missing from the debate? I suppose

it is that the two main parties have decided to spend this extra billion

on health. Martin McGuinness seemed to be suggesting we were getting

more money through Westminster, and the money redistributed through

departments, but Elf already takes the lion's share in the monitoring

rounds so we are getting to the point, it is going to be clear that

if we are going to achieve this pledge other departments will have

to lose out. I'm still not clear which departments will move out and

by how much. It is not entirely clear yet. Caroline, you are an

accountant so from your point of view is corporation tax the silver

bullet? Not completely. I was disappointed to hear it was 47

minutes in before we heard about the economy and business. It is

brilliant to see we have the corporation tax cut coming in less

than two years. We really need a corporation tax task force to

grapple with the issues to make sure we are ready for business. Things

around the skills development, infrastructure, property planning,

export support, attracting FDI, more innovation. I think it is a door

opener, I don't think it will be the silver bonnet but it will engage

conversations. And again we will have to lose money from the block

grant so services will have to suffer. Absolutely. The latest

numbers are estimated at around 240 million per year it will cost us. As

John was saying, the difficulty we have is no hard numbers. Maybe it is

the sad account meant I am, I want to see the budget and how it will be

carved out but we are not seeing that. There was a lot of talk again

about FDI and attracting global companies but local again, we should

be looking at indigenous businesses. I want to bring Colum in, you

represent the hospitality industry which is a big part of our economy.

Yes, and we did hear tourism mentioned once. The economy was the

also run in the conversation. It was really light on detail and we didn't

see any real commitment. We need to see them talk about how they will

create the right environment with tax and legislation. It will cure

some of our health problems, it will cure some of our problems from the

past because if people have a job, they feel better and we can invest

more in health and bring people out of poverty. It was really

disappointing, 47 minutes in before we even get to it. We need to put it

as the priority, not the tail end. Interesting to hear some views from

younger people as well, we have heard a lot from the Good Friday

Agreement generation and the coming of age. Have you heard anything in

the last two weeks that has changed your mind? No, that debate was very

disappointing for me. It's clear we are not the target audience for

these politicians. There was no mention of social issues which is

something I feel young people are very interested in. There was a lot

of mention of the past which we are not as well interested in. Obviously

the discussions around the past have been stuck for the last 20 years,

and it does seem there is a generation gap then between people

who feel strongly about it and those who don't, could you see that? It

appears to me we are not very well represented. These politicians were

so preoccupied with the past. I wasn't born during the Troubles, it

is all very distant to me. Lindsay, just tell me what you thought of the

debate and how you think you will vote. I once again didn't think it

was applicable to the younger generation. Arlene Foster's 5-point

plan is I feel keep the younger people out. I think it is quite

significant we are at the back table of this studio and I think that's

how young people feel, when they are voting, the backbenchers of

politics. We certainly don't view you in that way. Adam, have you

decided who to vote for? Is there anything you have heard during this

campaign that has swung you one way or another? Not really, when I think

of the past in Northern Ireland I think of the country that wants

dominated shipbuilding and the linen industry. I am actually more worried

about the future. Where are the specifics about how we will create

jobs and make Northern Ireland a good country for people to come and

set up businesses? Where is the concern for the future? In fairness

to Arlene Foster, she would say she has created 40,000 jobs over the

past mandate, and they want to create 50,000, which could in

essence held you in the future. I appreciate that but I'm doing

masters and still not in a secure job. So you feel there is still work

to be done. We have heard from the youth generation programme, has

nothing happened that has changed your mind? I will be voting the same

way. It was ridiculous how childish the First Minister was being. This

isn't what young people want to hear. All the parties were talking

about the First Minister's position in her defence. But she was so

childish, I felt like I was watching Donald Trump. That is very unfair to

make such a comparison but... Young people don't want to hear a squabble

about the position in the executive. Good to hear your thoughts. One

area, education, didn't get a lot of mention. There was a question about

integrated education, the sector you are representing. Yes, there has

been a lot of talk tonight about integration of many different areas

within Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the question wasn't

answered. However, obviously I'm here to talk for integrated schools.

Likewise all of the leaders in Northern Ireland are dealing with so

many issues with budget cuts, trying to manage them, special needs,

mental health issues, underachievement. But in terms of

the bigger picture, I feel there has been no pledge, no promise from the

other parties to say they will look at how they will support and invest

in education. Strictly speaking, if we want to try to make a difference

for society in the future, we need to invest in our children and find a

way of working together to try to move things forward so we are not

just talking empty words about a shared future, that we can look at

how to integrate education more. Chris, you would take on an opposing

view given that you work in a catholic school. Do you think

integrated education is gone in terms of expansion now because of

the emphasis Sinn Fein and the DUP have on shared education? I think

education was a nonstarter tonight. They hardly made a reference. There

were big discussions, there are big discussions that have to be had

about shared education, how we look after the ethos of the sectors that

exist. Can we afford all the sectors we have realistically? There's ways

in which the different sectors can rationalise. There was a discussion

during the last mandate where Tom Elliott accused the minister John

O'Dowd of closing catholic schools were structurally it was proven...

Those discussions have to be had and parties have to be challenged. The

big issue that will dominate in the short and medium-term is budget

cuts. That will result in actual job losses. At a time when parties are

producing documents to show how they are tackling educational

underachievement, no one will argue you will tackle that by taking

teachers out of classrooms. You have tackled underachievement in a

different way at your school, can you talk about that briefly. If the

young people are at the back, we are in the cupboard and that's how I

felt about it tonight. Utterly depressed. Education brings us to

the future. The programme for government said they would tackle

underachievement and promote the economy. We are not doing that. We

segregate pupils, we label them at 11. The third of our young people

leave school without five GCSEs including maths and English. The

boys entitled to free school meals, 70% of them leave school without

five GCSEs. Post-conflict, we need social cohesion. We don't need to

create problems in the future of a complete underclass, skills deficit,

people who will early and feel disenfranchised from society. Not

one person mentioned selection. It is the elephant in the room. What is

your perspective on education? Mike Nesbitt said health should have

an impact on education policy. We hear about needing a joined up

approach, marrying the outcomes and then agreeing ways forward. That's

what they said in 2011 as well. I would like to see education and

everything else properly put in a strategic way. The UUP have good

ideas on education. The SDLP in their manifesto have put higher

education on in important factor for improving the economy. I would say

to the smaller parties, if you cannot get the education manifesto,

go into opposition and show us a workable alternative. Thank you, we

want you out here, not in the cupboard making your views known. I

would be interesting to hear your perspective on this, as somebody who

wasn't born in Northern Ireland. What do you make on the debate? It

was rather disappointing. We witnessed the Assembly forming, and

it would be now nice to see them performing. There was a report that

said that only 42 out of 82 pledges from the latest programme for

government were met. This would be totally unacceptable in a private

sector. Or a committee sector. This is what we have to address

post-elections. You were not born here but have been here a long time.

What do you make of the political debate? it's still an election, so I

still see green against Orange. They give you different policies but

don't give you the real solution. I haven't heard about education, how

they will reduce waiting lists, how they will grow the economy. That's

the most important thing. When you grow the economy you grow the income

of the state and then you can improve all the other departments.

When it comes to some of the people who have come here, and you have

worked with refugee families, do they feel hopeful about the future?

Whenever they looked at the green and orange policies, it puts them

off politics. A lot of them don't even go to vote. When they hear that

kind of debate, fighting to grab the sectarian votes, it puts them off.

We need to see a real politics here. Does it worry you that the green and

orange is still at the forefront? I think I was very disappointed in the

debate tonight and the lack of focus on standard policy issues that I

think the electorate want to hear about. I want to hear where our

childcare strategy has gone. It's still missing from our landscape. I

work with women training in employability and skills and they

can't move to work if there isn't childcare available. Other issues

like corporation tax. Childcare is as important as that. It was still

orange and green tonight and that will turn people off. We need more

debate on substantive policy issues. We can get some more debate and

reaction. It was same old, same old. It seems we are in for another five

years if those current parties are elected. The sectarian card was

played left, right and centre. There is nothing in what was said that

will tackle poverty, or that will do anything about affordable childcare.

They talk about the number of jobs they have created. I think they said

40,000, but we already know from the programme at 17,000 of those were

lost. We already know that we have something like 30,000 zero hour

contract jobs. I think in Northern Ireland we have nearly 50% apathy

from the voting population, and no wonder looking at that this evening

from our five main parties. I'm not surprised the other 50% wouldn't be

put off by that whole debate. The party leaders, the only thing they

could agree on was that store Mont wasn't working. I would say to

people that if they want real change they look at the Conservatives as a

viable option moving forward long-term. We have seen this debate

tonight, and all they talked about was the past, whether it was the

legacy, the recent five years of DUP and Sinn Fein. Arlene was talking

about a 5-point plan, but what she means is five more years of pain.

Sinn Fein say they are anti-austerities but they are happy

to give the Tories the right to cut benefits in the north. When we go

around the doors in North Antrim and other areas where the Labour Party

are standing, we are finding that young people are fed up of the

politics of the past, the politics of failure, and fed up of the

politics of DUP and Sinn Fein. We can get more views from our season.

Servers. Alex, I hope you don't mind me calling you that. What did you

make of it? -- seasoned servers. I thought it was the equivalent of a

general aesthetic. Nobody was listening and half the audience

probably left. What annoys me is all the parties talking about the bad

old days, but they were the bad old days. All that whingeing about whose

fault it was, that's what's putting people off, and the young people

were right, they were not being engaged, and nobody else was either.

The exercise was to get people voting on Thursday and they have

failed. Taking politics out of the health service, I would take

politics out of education, justice and every department like that,

because they are incapable of doing everything anything with that. It

was the same old, same old. It became background noise rather than

a constructive debate. We have heard from everybody tonight on the things

they feel passionate about. A lot of people feel passionately about, what

stops politicians tackling those issues? They know they have to

appeal to their core electorate. We talk about the dog whistle noise a

politician makes, is when they say something that only their own

supporters here. There was a lot of that going on. A lot of politics in

Northern Ireland is dog whistle. I have to say certain things otherwise

my core electorate will not vote for me. And that's all that matters.

Part of that is electorate not voting. That's a big part of it, if

I had my way I would have compulsory voting like Australia. For those

thinking of not voting, people are dying all over the world for the

chance to vote, so go and vote on Thursday. Who were your winners and

losers tonight in terms of performance? I think by about 35

minutes in most people in this room had stopped listening. The noise had

risen and people were talking to each other. I think the dominant

figure tonight was Martin McGuinness, because he actually made

Arlene Foster smile when he said how much he enjoyed working with her. He

was constantly looking to the future. He was being sniped at by

Colum Eastwood and a couple of others, but he was actually acting

the statesman and was being avuncular and charming. He was the

one constantly looking to the future. People started asking about

the past and so on, but Martin McGuinness was the one acting the

statesman. Who was your winner? I don't think there was a winner. The

main thing for all the parties, nobody did any damage to anyone

else. It was a dull campaign, and this was a dull end to it. I think a

lot of people will have switched off and the decision they will have made

is not to vote. That's all from us tonight, we will be back on Friday

at 3pm on BBC One for all the election coverage. Goodbye.

This Assembly election will bring many new faces to the MLAs' benches.