Episode 2 The Nolan Show

Hello and welcome. Her we are live on BBC One! I have got to tell you,

I am a shrinking violets... last Wednesday this was the most watched

local show in Northern Ireland. Thank you! We are only into

programmed to and we have a really important role to play for do

tonight. It is vital that we give you a platform to discuss what you

will have seen on the BBC regarding Cardinal Sean Brady. The programme

alleged that the cardinal was a key player in a scandal that allowed

the paedophile priest Brendan Smyth to continue to abuse children.

did what was there to do. You had names and addresses, Cardinal, of

children who were being abused and you did not protect them.

That is our main discussion. De lifetime ban on people giving blood

in Northern Ireland's because they are gay. I feel filthy. One of the

UK's leading psychics, Derek Acorah, is in the studio tonight. His you

Jewish? There are lots of ways to Brendan Smyth is synonymous with

child abuse. Over 40 years he sexually abused and indecently

assaulted many children in parishes in Belfast, Dublin and the United

States. He died in prison in 1997, one month into a 12 year sentence.

A BBC documentary screened this week has brought to light new

evidence which raises serious questions about the role of

cardinal Sean Brady in this case, and in particular his failure to

ensure that children he knew about were properly protected. Let's

remind ourselves of what we watched last night. Two bedrooms, one for

the girls, one for Father Smith and the two boys. You and another boy?

Yes. Me and a boy from Belfast. He called me over first and he abused

me the way she did before. When he was finished with me I went back to

bed anti-cult the other boy over. He did the same to him. I was in

the bed, watching. Well, I was listening, I didn't want to watch.

It was a little afterwards in 1975 that Brendan found the courage to

tell a local priest about the abuse. A week or so later Prenton and his

dad were driven to a monastery. Brendan was let into a room with

three priests, including Cardinal Brady. Ikea for him the names of

the other children a one with me on the trips. A boy from Belfast,

another boy from County Cavan, and another boy that was his friend.

Were you able to be any more specific about abuse she had seen?

Yeah, I told him that I witnessed one boy being abused. He was that?

The boy from Belfast. The court and that the boy had been accused?

I knew for a fact he had been abused. The other boy from County

Cavan also told me he had been abused.

One other children abused by Smith, Brendan, has come into the studio

this evening. It has been a big day for you, obviously, the impact of

this. How are you feeling? It has been a huge day. I am overwhelmed

by the response and the support. For people throughout the country.

I'm also angry at the response from Cardinal Brady, that he still

refuses to take account for what he failed to do. She still is in

denial of what he failed to do. will give you the time and space

you need this evening so you can tell the country would you feel.

Amnesty International have called on the police to investigate this.

I an joined by Patrick Corrigan, the Northern Ireland Director of

Amnesty International. What is happening? We think that enough

fresh information came to light in the BBC programme for the police to

launch an investigation into whether or not individuals within

the Church failed to report a crime. That is the direction in which the

evidence presented by the programme is pointing. That is a criminal

offence in Northern Ireland under the 1967 Criminal Act. We're

calling for the police to do their job. The BBC has done its job and

now the police must do theirs. you contacted the police this

evening? The legal advice we have taken is that there was nice it

isn't information in the public domain for the priest in his seat

at - and information, so today we are making a public call for them

to do that, to initiate the investigation. We know that another

Brendan Smyth committed these crimes, now we need to find out if

there were other crimes committed within the Church to cover up those

crimes. Thank you. Let us do it Well, joining me tonight is the

reporter, Darragh Macintyre. And the journalist and broadcaster Jude

columns. - Jude Collins. This was a 60 minute film for broadcast across

the UK. For those who might have missed it, what was the key

evidence here that is leading to all this focus and Cardinal Brady?

The key point is that we learnt that she was told back in 1975 that

children had been abused, they were at risk of being abused and was

given the names and their addresses. The charge that we made last night

is that he didn't act sufficiently to protect these children. We have

the names and information and didn't act. Obviously he will

dispute that and we will hear throughout the programme this

evening does in. Police pick up the phone. - please pick up the phone.

What was his exact role? That is fundamental to what the Church are

saying today. He is saying that his role was that of the note taker.

But we know from the evidence that we have seen that he was maybe more

than that. We have seen documentation written in his own

handwriting were he says he was dispatched to investigate the

complaint. He did act as a note taker, but he also interviewed

another one of the victims. He gathered evidence. We spoke to

Father Tom Doyle, and he said he was the investigators. He gathered

the evidence, authenticated the report and we know that he compiled

the report and handed it to the bishop. Whatever his wall walls in

that room, it is indisputable that at the very end he asked a 14-year-

old child to make a vow of silence about what was happening. There is

some question as to whether he asked Brendan and the other boy who

made an oath and signed it, but we know that at Bible was handed to

Brendan and he swore an oath pledging that he was telling the

truth. But also swearing to be absolutely silent about the process

he had been involved in, not about the abuse, but about the process.

That oath was countersigned by Cardinal Brady. From the

perspective of the church it is simple. The oath was administered

to Brendan, they have stated categorically, that it was

administered to him to give weight to his evidence so that if Father

Brendan Smyth was to come back and challenge and they had this to rely

on. I want to take you back, Brendan, to when you're sitting in

that room and Cardinal Brady was there. What did it feel like to be

a 14-year-old boy in that room? was scary. I was alone, afraid, I

didn't know what questions they were going to ask me. I wanted my

dad to be beside me and he wasn't there. Just a feeling of sheer

terror. I was injured dad beside you? When we went up to the

monastery that was put into another room and told to wait their and

I've went in through the other room with these three priests. My dad

wasn't allowed in, that is basically it. You are in that room

alone and they start asking you questions. Some of the language

that we have seen that they used... the questions that were asked, to

ask a 14-year-old boy does questions, like have you ever done

this with any man or boy before and, if not, why not? Then, did your

body changed? You know the meaning of the word direction? Another one,

did seed come from your body? Imagine asking a 14-year-old boy

It looked as if they were trying to: I just want to protect you to

make. I want you to stick to what to definitely know. Your father is

outside. If at the end of this process, Cardinal Brady is in the

room, he asks you to Soren something. He came in with a bible

and I had to read the Bible. I had to solemnly swear that I would

speak to no one about this except authorised priests. De G want to do

that? Are I did not want to do that. -- did you want to do that? I did

not want to do that. I was not given the option. So you then walk

out of that room and your father is there. What is your instinct?

first instinct I had was that I wanted to tell my father. Then I

could get stuff off of my chest. But I had to sign a note of secrecy.

I had to live with it. I had to live with it until I got the

courage to talk about it. A was this difficult for you? Can you

find yourself defending what happened? I do not think anyone can

defend what happened. The role of the Catholic Church is to protect

youngsters such as the ones we have been talking about. It is horrible,

absolutely horrible. There is no question about that. One of the

things and the testimony that we have heard patches on something

that we should keep in mind when we are considering this. People just

did what they were told in that age. They told this young boy not to

speak any one and he did that unquestionably. The same difference,

the word that Cardinal Brady used, anyone in the 70s would have

remembered this, not just in the Catholic Church, obedience with the

ultimate virtue. -- obedience was the also made a virtue. We are

talking about 1975. We are not talking about 1475. For you telling

me that people reacted differently to child abuse then? -- are you

telling me. They obviously did. We know that this thing was covered up

by some people. No one would deny that. What I am saying is that

every age finds it very difficult, occasionally difficult, to

understand the way in which another age thinks. Look at wedding

photographs. Do you think they look well in those things? What should

Cardinal Brady have done? A 14- year-old boy was sitting in front

of him and telling him about his abuse. Do you go to the at -- do

you go to the police? Do you make sure that the young man and the

other young people who you gave them your name and addresses, do

you make sure they are safe? Cardinal Brady has said to us that

he believes that he did the right thing. Still to this day? That is

what he says. He does it under the name of obedience. I cannot look

into his mind or soul and know if he is telling the truth. I do know

that in the 70s that deference to authority was a very important

feature. Particularly in the Catholic Church. I really

appreciate you coming into night. We asked representatives of the

Catholic Church to come on tonight but they would not talk to us. This

was a canon lawyer. He was a 36- year-old man and a respected

teacher. He was not a 17-year-old. What is the expectation of a

middle-aged man? How should he react? In terms of the Catholic

Church, I do not know. When I look back on that time, I cannot imagine

anyone at the age of 36 holding that authority. I am not saying

that Cardinal Brady was not a man of some importance. He was

certainly not top of the tree. not want to get away from the point,

because the point is that Cardinal Brady was an experienced school

teacher and a canon lawyer. The Bishop's secretary, that is

important. It is not about him going to the police. It is not

about him going to the authorities were going up and down the chain of

command to see what he could do next and if he could do something

else. It is about him protecting the child. He had the names and the

addresses of people that he had believed were abused or were at

risk of being abused and he did not contact their families. We all know

that if a child is at risk of injury. We all know if a child is

in any way in peril, how do we respond? That is the question. It

is not about the hierarchy. It is not about the chain of command or

Canon law. It is about how somebody would respond when faced with this

particular knowledge. Did Cardinal Brady deal what he believed was the

right thing? The question is, did he do the right thing? I think he

did. We can only follow our own conscience as to what we believe.

conscious as to what they believe to be right and wrong. If you

follow your conscience, I think anyone would acknowledge this,

whether they are Catholic or not, if you do what you believed to be

the right thing, even if it is the wrong thing in other people's

eyes... There was a 14-year-old boy. He wanted to tell his father. He

wanted to let his father know. Cardinal Brady did not tell his

father. That was appalling. I would give anything that Det -- that that

did not happen but it was a different age. We are talking about

an individual a man. Did he believe he was doing the right thing or is

he lying to us? I do not think there is any problem. I think

Cardinal bought -- I think Cardinal Brady believes he did what the

right thing was for a man in his position to do. Was it in fact

right not to contact the parents? Was it right, knowing that he must

at Nairn, because he was working in the Bishop's office, but he did

no... Let us hear what do you think. You can call our number and we can

hear from you. Now we can speak to Michael. What are your thoughts,

Michael? I would like to say, first of all, I think it is fantastic

that you have brought this up. The point I would like to make, and I

am glad you brought this up, because I was not born until 1925

and I am a survivor of a very severe child sexual abuse and I

would like to say that if Cardinal Sean Brady had done the right thing

in 1975 when he had called himself a notary, when we have learned from

the data that he was actually an investigator, that if that

awareness had been raised at that time, that perhaps I would have

been spared the abuse that I had to go through. What I am saying

tonight is very clear. I am not on a witch hunt and I am not on a

gloating boat. What I am saying that is if Courtnell shone Brady

does not have the gumption to resign -- Cardinal Sean Brady does

not have the gumption to resign, then maybe the Catholic Church is

do at this present time... I believe that he has that been

allowed to resign. Until all of these things have been brought to

the floor and until we stand up and say, who is in charge here? Who is

making the decisions here and who is... All of the stock up what

Cardinal Brady did and, more to the point, what he did not do, it is

academic until we come to a point and say, I am sitting here in my

apartment night after night and day after day haunted by the screaming

laughter of an abuser who abused me and the many hundreds of people in

this country who have been abused and their hearts torn out of their

chest and the Catholic Church is allowed to continue to cover

themselves. I want to thank you and I know it is a personal issue.

Thank you. We have also got a retired detective here tonight.

Please welcome here and here. -- please welcome him here.

Mary Doherty, from the Christian Solidarity Party. There is a

national discussion here about what Cardinal Brady did and did not do

back end 1975. Whether there is any difference between what he should

have done now and then. -- back in 1975. I am as disturbed as anybody

else about the abuse. The system in the nursing profession is the same.

You report to the management anything you see that is wrong and

they take it further. You could not go to the police. You go to your

management first and that is what I think Cardinal Brady did and that

is how you behave. It would not be acceptable that you go to the

police burst. That is not how it goes. When you take it to their

management you hope they do something about it. If they do not,

you believe that... Do you not wonder what has happened to the

child? Yes, it is difficult with the abuse, but that is how systems

work. There was a statement today saying that these are the

guidelines. There is someone designated to do this job. Write to

this very day, because you keep talking about 1975, but talking

about two dozen 12, have another child approached another child --

2012, if another child approached another child, are you telling me

this is the right thing to do? is a junior priest and he takes it

to his parish priest first and hopefully that will then be taken...

A do you not fight and do what you need to do to protect the child? We

have management and people in charge and they expect us... There

are guidelines. The law pre-tax people who whistle blow. -- de law

pre-tax people who whistle blow. The law also expects someone to

bring serious illegality to the attention of the police. That is

very true but it does not happen in these organisations. First of all,

these organisations. First of all, these organisations. First of all,

these organisations. First of all, you have to go to your management.

You are working in a job and you do not want to lose your job. Pardon?

These are Heagney his crimes and crimes against humanity. -- these

are awful crimes and crimes against humanity. This was a young boy, 14

years of age. This was a canon lawyer. He knew the difference

between right and wrong. This is what is happening here. What we

have to do is look at what happened here. These were crimes. If

Cardinal Brady was someone else, this misguided loyalty... I have

great difficulty with myself because I think we are conditioned

in our Psyche... We have this fear. The instrument of beer and shame is

used against people. -- the Any organisation that represents

the Church should go by God slot. Cardinal Brady should be holding

Godstow Lock, which says it is not about his right, it is about the

rights of the child and should have turned round and done the right

thing. The right thing is to be transparent, and it you're wrong,

say, no matter disorganisation, protected child. To try to make an

equivalence between nursing and the Catholic Church is beyond belief. I

would like to disagree with Darragh Macintyre on one point. I think

Sean Brady would know what would happen. He was a canon lawyer. He

would have known the implications if he had told anybody, told the

police. He knew what was going to happen, that's why he kept quiet.

If what we shouldn't do is speculate. How do you feel in your

gut when that 14-year-old sitting right there, he walks at any can't

even tell his own dad. In any mother that has any kids to think

that their son would sit in a room surrounded by priests, he must have

been petrified. There is no word to describe how he felt. Nobody else

can imagine, you know? I know, Brendan, the what you can tell us

tonight is that shortly after that, a few weeks later, after you were

assured by those priests in that room that you would be protected,

tell me what happened? I used to have a part-time job after school.

One day and was in the butcher's shop and a car pulled up outside.

The window came down and it was Father Smyth. He won't like this to

me. He said, I know what you have done, I'm going to get you. What

did that to do you? A I was scared to go home. I love the couple of

streets away. I was afraid, in Kizi was hiding behind a corner. I just

wanted to get home as fast as I could. The lady here. I don't doubt

Cardinal Brady's sincerity mini- states today that he believes he

did the best he could, but I think there is a moral obligation on all

of us to be responsible for our neighbours. Cardinal Brady wasn't

just a lawyer, he was a schoolteacher who was dealing with

children on an ongoing basis. somebody he was dealing with

children could see a 14 year-olds subjected to invasive, degrading

questioning, not that he withheld, but holding information which

ultimately we know that other people were abused. Brendan is to

be credited with immense courage as a teenager for trying to protect...

as he said, I thought Icesave Jew, to the other victim. He thought he

had done the right thing. We have a caller, Gordon. He is not there.

Kieran is there. I think it is an age thing. For people over 50, they

are not going after Sean Brady. I think only one-in-a-million would

have done the right thing in those days. It was not fair for him to

assume that people who were 40 years older you what they were

doing. I think one in a million people, be it a policeman, lawyer,

would have stood up against their principal and said I know better. I

think we're being totally unfair on this man and I discussed it with

the mob reaction. Sean Brady is no saint, but like 99 % of people...

do you agree? Any schoolteacher, FA suspected any child being abused,

they would have been reporting it. They are hiding behind the clock

because in those days the priests walking and high ground. Let me

bring you a statement from the But is part of the statement from

Cardinal Brady today. The question I have back to that, is Cardinal

Brady insisting he was just the note taker, the problem is, you

have seen the documentary evidence, let's see it now on screen. What

does that say? It says I was dispatched to investigate the

complaint. I was dispatched to investigate the complaint. Now, to

the Catholic Church, a simple question, what type of person that

is dispatched to investigate is just an note taker? How does that

tally? Let's get the view from Rome this evening. Paddy Agnew, hello.

You are the Irish Times correspondent. What did you use and

what has happened here, do you think Cardinal Brady should

survive? I think it would be useful for a lot of people in the hold the

seat to be watching your programme, and even more people here to watch

the excellent documentary. One is constantly aware of the extent of

which the Church don't get it. The reaction today is absolutely total

rejection of the idea that Cardinal Brady should resign, total

rejection that he did anything wrong in 1975, and a belief

basically... the only person who speaks on the record is the

official senior spokesman, Cardinal Lombardi, in the Vatican. He

referred me to the state of from Cardinal Brady. He wanted to

highlight a statement included by Cardinal Brady which was from the

Vatican's chief prosecutor in which she said - he said basically it is

clear that 1975, Father Brady acted promptly and with determination to

insure the allegations were believed and acted upon by his

superiors. Father Lombardi said that that statement was not

included in the documentary. In other words, the Vatican is still

very much on the defensive on the whole sex abuse. Can we have asked

you time and time again today, and the BBC has been asking non-stop

today for the Catholic Church to appear in front of the people of

Northern Ireland, in front of the country and state their case. They

are no were to be seen. Now, you think how quickly the Catholic

Church have acted with people like Father Brian D'Arcy, who was

speaking out about the ordination of Women in the church, and he is

close down like that. Cardinal Brady, what we have the Catholic

Church reacted to him? How much energy has gone into him?

wouldn't for a moment disagree with you and the fact that they were

very quick to silence people, or control people like Father D'Arcy.

I think what we're talking about are two things. One is the horror

of what happened, and secondly then what should be done about this now.

It seems to me that a central point for several of your speakers is

that they believe Cardinal Brady should resign. I am a bit

astonished at the number of people who are not Catholic, who are

former Catholics, or who are traditionally hostile to the

Catholic Church who are suddenly concerned do have a good leader of

the Catholic Church. I would said that any organisation has the right

to appoint its own spokesperson or its own leader. Other people may

have an interest, but it is in the hands of the people who are members

of that organisation. Brendan, I want to give you the last word on

this tonight. Can I ask you what impact the abuse had on you as a

human being? You have had to live with that now for many years.

a difficult question to answer. It has ruined my life, to be honest.

It has affected the way it brought up my children and their

relationship with my wife, at times. Cardinal Brady has insisted today

that he will not resign. What impact does that haven't you?

can't understand why he can't see his feelings. For him to stand

without resigning, I think that is further abuse at me. Not only of

use of meat, but the children, the hundreds of children but were

abused after 1975. That is the way I feel about that. Abuse, more

abuse. What would you say to him? Resign. Own up to your feelings,

for once. We will close the text boat - the vote. Please don't

This is not scientific and it is self-selecting and so on, but I'll

be interested if you can stay with this, just do you what they have

said. Please put your hands together for Brendan.

APPLAUSE. And please thank all of my guests

She still loves You to Bits. Good night and gone bless and we hope to

see you again. Derek Acorah is coming up very soon indeed.

Remember that we do this show live for a reason, so you can get in

As you know from the radio every day, if you want help you can get

in contact with me. There is currently a situation in Northern

Ireland in which gay people are being told they cannot give bloods

for life if they have ever had sex with another man. In the rest of

the UK every other health minister has lifted that ban. What does this

say to gay people 30 years after homosexuality was legalised here.

Peter is a gay man living and working in Belfast. If you live

anywhere else in the UK she would qualify to donate blood, something

he wants to do. I feel very strongly about this. I represent

many gay men in Northern Ireland that live their lives

responsibility and we should be able to have the right to give

blood, because blood is in short supply. Peter agreed to undergo a

series of blood tests for the show with the view to becoming a donor.

He has been tested for HIV and other blood infections, and the

results are in. Here we go! Clean Back in September, our Health

Minister decided he would go against the rest of the UK and

repeal a lifetime ban on gay men giving blood. We have seen a 300 %

increase in HIV so the problem has not gone away. There is caution and

then there is caution. Experts estimate the actual probability of

an HIV infected donation entering the blood supply to be as low as

one in 4 million donations. Less likely than Mr Poots being killed

by a bolt of lightning or catching the play! We are not clear how the

Minister are right to a different decision. The risk is negligible.

We already know what Edwin Poots thinks of homosexuality. They it is

abominable. Accused of letting his own influence affect public policy,

he has stated a spectacular U-turn. He said he was back to thinking

about it and was taking further advice. We have seen contrary

evidence. I think it would be and the public interest. Six months on

Tell me if you think this is a far so or not. Edwin Poots will let

this man do it in Belfast, but if the same man -- man went to

anywhere else and the UK, the NHS would not give any notice to

whether he was in gay or straight. I would just like to ask the

Minister, what makes him different? The Ministers and Scotland and

Wales and England, what makes him The reality is, we get blood from

the rest of the UK regularly when we are short and Northern Ireland,

of blood which obviously could have come from a gay man. We got that

nearly 150 units last year. So, Minister, is it risky or not?

have just given a pint of my blood. It was such a civilised experience.

Not one question about my sexuality. It is something that I feel proud

about doing. My blood could possibly be on its way to you

sometimes in and I hope you enjoyed it and I hope it saves someone's

life. -- enjoyed it. A have been trying to get the Minister to

explain himself, but on the radio and now for the television. -- both

on the radio. Why is he not talking to me about this? Our production

team has been on to the Department of Health all week, offering him an

interview, any time or any place. That is the Belfast Trust. And

lightness about the risks. -- enlighten us about the risks. Guess

what? They would not give us a single interview. Why not? Here is

the score. There is simply no way they are going to fob me off. It is

Back in Belfast, p to present himself to give blood at the City

Hospital, armed with his clean bill of health. Here is what happened

next. Hello, Peter. Hello! It is good to see you. How do you feel?

Horrendous. I have just been refused by one of the most

informative and nicest doctors I have ever seen. They were so

apologetic. You are crying. I feel physically sick. I had been treated

as if I have something wrong with me. It is a complete disgrace that

there is a man sitting in an office dictating and stopping me from

performing a right of mind to give blood. It is not one person, Peter.

He has got support. I do not care. I do not care how much support he

has. I have been refused. How does Well, obviously, we are very

interested to hear what the health Minister has to say about this.

Please welcome the Health Minister, Hello, Edwin Poots. Hello! Well,

the Health Minister decided he could not make him sub available

for you, ladies and abdomen. - Trevor could not make himself

available. He sent a -- he could not just make himself available. He

How do you feel about a man crying on television? And, obviously,

another Minister came men and got a hard time from the people but they

thought their case because they believed in it. Let me just hear

how much passion you have in your case tonight. Let me hear it. I can

hear you loud and clear, loud and clear. Let's see what do you think

in the audience tonight. Hello, right and the very back. I have,

sexual friends. Nothing would stop me taking -- I have homosexual

friends. Nothing would stop me taking their blood. A would you

like to ask the Minister? What is your reaction? Leads let him

I have a question for the Minister! It one of his family members needed

blood and the only blood that was available was from a gay person,

would he let them die or would he let them take their blood? Let the

minister's speech! -- let the I will let the Minister speak when

he is ready. Let us hear it. Loud and clear, Minister. He is refusing

to tell us what the evidence is. In the film, the Minister said that

the problem is of by 300 % and this is why he does not want gay men

donating blood. We are spreading to the Advisory Board on blood and

tissue. Hello to you, Richard. Is the Minister of right? Does this

increase in risk, how significant is it? First of all, I am not

actually from the Organisation but I am a member of the advisory group

that was set up to look at the evidence, and I know that they may

not want to argue with a Minister, but the important thing is that we

look to the evidence for a change in the rules in relation with

homosexual men donating blood, and the change from a prominent

exclusion to a deferral for a year was a reasonable thing to do and

the additional risk was really negligible. It was something

between an extra positive donation every 20 years and every 450 years.

We did not think that that was a significant change. Thank you very

much. Give him a round of applause. I will tell you what Edwin Poots,

when you want to share the expert advice that you have that all of

these people are paying for, they are paying for your experts, maybe

the experts can come here, and maybe the public can hear what is

informing your decision-making process. My next Ness says that he

first knew he had psychic abilities when he saw the ghost of his dead

grandfather. It is the Star of David. Is he Jewish? Is the Jewish,

San? Is the Jewish? Issie Jewish? Robert? -- is he Jewish? Robert?

Robert? After playing for Liverpool Football Club, there was a great

message from the on. He is probably the UK's most famous spiritual

medium for supper ladies and gentlemen, please welcome, Derek

Acorah! -- the UK's most famous spiritual medium. Let's cut to the

chase. You are 80 Tom -- magician? No, I am not. You are taking

advantage of wardrobe full -- 1 rural people. I am most certainly

not. If my family were the people to go by and the people to listen

to... My dad and brothers and sisters, they all know me. If you

spoke to them, they would say that these things would make me be

accused of being an actor. You are a shy man. My grandmother, who was

before me, she said when I was it that a boy, she said I would be

flamboyant. She said I would be larger than life. But it is the

personality. I wish I had so much time with you but there is a big

debate. I am trying to consolidate what I want to say to you in just a

few minutes. Do you really think you can deliver for people?

heart of hearts, I'd do. I'd do it daily. If I could not do it, I

would not do it. I would not be doing it for the past 34 years.

is talking to you? My guide, Sam. He is that? He is alive, but he is

in the world of spirits. What is it like for people to laugh at you?

That is OK. It is not morbid. are laughing because, presumably,

they do not believe you. Maybe it is because they have not had a

spiritual experience. Had they just one experience, it would change

their way of thinking, with respect, the way of thinking and the way

they look at different things. second row, go ahead. You are

laughing yourself to the bank. You have been in the business 34 years

because you are making money. You are preying on the honourable

people. There are people who have had a break up of a marriage and

they are coming to you for help. It would be funny if it was not so

scary what you do to people. When I first started doing readings for

people, I virtually made myself and my family bankrupt after two years

because I did not charge enough money to drop a wager. Than the

money started rolling in! Know it did not. In all of the years that I

have worked in television, I did not sign a contract with any

network where Derek Acorah has done anything else. How much do you

charge? In what? For a Reading. do not do a reading. I sat doing

readings 15 years ago. At the very back. -- I stopped doing readings.

I am a medium. Can you see anybody in this audience tonight? Can you

see anybody from the spiritual world? Yes, I can see a lot of

people. The spirit people, actually, they develop when they wish to.

the front. Are you going to get an A 18 Reading if it is not too much

but there? Maybe we do not have any money on us. There is no charge!

Can I just finish. I do not shout about this. I have been doing this

for nearly 20 years. I have gone into hospices across the UK. Once

again. I will be fair to you tonight. I know you. I know that

you will understand because of the child abuse story. We need De -- we

need to give me time to breathe. Here is what I want to do. I want

you to come on to the radio tomorrow morning and for us to have

the space and time to reveal what you feel. Ladies and gentlemen,

please find Derek Acorah. -- please and thank Derek Acorah. This is the

taxed result tonight. Let's see the 986 % of beer -- 96 % of US said

that Cardinal Brady should resign. You are a reaction to that,

branding? That is justice. That is how people are feeling. You have