Episode 7 The Nolan Show

Hello there. Hello and welcome, ladies and gentlemen. Just to make

sure, just to make sure I've got this right. It's 10.35pm, we are

live on BBC One, aren't we, ladies and gentlemen?

APPLAUSE We are. Thank you for joining us.

Here's what's coming up a row over the appointment of a republican

once on Britain's most wanted list to sit on a victims' forum. We talk

about life has thrown at Barry McGuigan since his famous win. How

can a 19-year-old get to 63 stone? Do you have much sympathy for her.

Should obese people wise up and sort themselves out? I will not be

passing that one, will I ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining us.

Now, she was once on Britain's most wanted list accused of IRA murders,

aterplted murders and firearms offences. She was never convicted.

Evelyn Glenn-homes has been choosen to sit on a forum representing

terrorist victims in Northern Ireland. Unionists are outraged

opposing her appointment. To discuss this development welcome

the Ulster unionist party leader Mike Nesbitt with Sinn Fein

represented by Alex Maskey and Brendan McCallister. Give them a

round of applause, ladies and gentlemen.

APPLAUSE OK. How do you define a victim and

where do we go from here? Big question tonight. A very important

subject for us here in Northern Ireland. I would like you to take

part tonight.you will see the details on the screen on how to do

so. There they are right now. Let's start. You will agree with someone

who is in the audience tonight who is a victim. Janet Hunter. Hello.

Thank you so much for coming. What is your view when this news broke

today. How do you feel about it? Devastated in many ways because a

victim is a person who has been hurt by perpetrators. People like

her have been the perpetrators. They have done a lot of hurt and

damage. They have insulted and hurt people to the extent to where

families have been bereaved and they have been really devastated.

Now, they are putting themselves into strategic position where they

will devastate families and people again. What happened to you and

your family? My brother was murdered by the IRA, 25 years ago

next week. It's a poignant time for you now? It is. Ha has the impact

been? Let me hear your words? impact on our family was, at first,

when my brother was murdered the family fell to pieces. Really fell

to pieces. They were mentally and physically devastated. My parents

have never ever got over it. The council next week is doing a 25

year memorial service for Joseph. That will be a healing point for my

dad and mum. They have never got over. It my sisters, there are five

of us, and some of us are in different parts of the world. It

has just been totally devastation. You have just not killed my brother,

you've killed the whole family. We have found it very hard to come

back from that. Do you feel forgotten? Oh, yeah, trampled into

the dirt and made second-class citizens. It's been really bad.

you know why your brother was killed? Because he was Ulster

defence regiment for the British Government and the IRA decided

because he was a young fella of only six months in the UDR and he

was vulnerable, he had no weapon to protect himself. He had no way of

knowing they were coming from him. They walked in and shot him. In a

room with know windows. One door in and one door out. The cowards

walked in and shot him dead. don't want this to be a programme

tonight where I'm shouting and screaming. It's too important for

Northern Ireland, isn't it? Can you just tell me how you feel? First of

all... When you hear that lady? are you doing this programme

tonight? To give people like a voice. Let me finish. The full list

of the members of this body have not been released yet. I think it

would be to give all those people appointed on that body the courtesy

of having all the names in the public so everybody who is a victim

may have a say or an opinion. Why are you doing a programme. A

builder friend said to me, never show a half done job. I respect her

opinion very much so. That's Janet. I'm reading on the script. I

apologise, Janet. I respect Janet's opinion, very much so. Her opinion

would be shared by an awful lot of people. There are an awful lot of

people who have lost their lives in this conflict. Those people are

spread across the community. Evelyn, who is a long personal friend of

mine sherks was shot by a loyalist when she was 16 years of age. She

is a victim. He is a republican and active in this society. Has been

for a long time. People around the room would have an understanding of

the work work that people like she has put Building this peace process.

I would say in this programme, without fear, without the

contribution of people like her in the peace process, whatever people

think about her views prior to that, she has never been the victim, we

need to bear that in mind. People like her have built this peace

process from the ground up. I have seen her at public meals. You have

read some of her public comments recently. She is a stalwart of the

peace process. That has to count for something. She is a republican.

She made no apologies about that. I'm a republican, I make no

apologies about. That we are in post-conflict. It's important that

all voice vos She was asked if she would apologise for what the IRA

did and she said no? She said she wouldn't say that the IRA campaign

was wrong. She did reget that people had to lose their lives.

What is important here is that people like her and many other

republicans, this programme is focusing in on this one republican

appointed to this body. Contingency's a disgrace that this

programme is focusing on one person. She has a right as a republican to

be on that body. She will make a positive contribution. She is

currently making those contributions around and across the

communities. We will find out what you think at home tonight. I want

to hear from John. Your sister was killed by loyalists? That's right.

Pro-British death squad. She was 16 years of age working in a shop.

They came in and shot her, so they did. Just like the story we heard

from Janet, all hurt is the same. It doesn't matter what side of the

community you come from, or where you are from, should you be the

family of an IRA volunteer, loyalist, should you be the family

of a British soldier whatever, that hurt is exactly the same. What is

it? I want to give you an opportunity. Put words to the

impact it has had on your life? Well, I was only 13 at the time, so

my life is my life. I don't know what it would of been like to live

a life without loss and without the... A family unit together. You

know, every Christmas was different from 13 on. You know, every time,

different times of the year were different. Why do you think she was

killed? She was killed because she was a Catholic. Because she was a

nationalist. Because there was a conflict on in our country. Because

of misrule. Because of a long, long history that we need to talk about

in the total, not just in separate incidents. Mike, you were a

victims' commissioner before you have taken your post as leader of

the Ulster unionist party. What Alex has said there that Evelyn has

a right to be a victim. She was shots when she was 16, do you

agree? Well, the legal definition would back up Alex's view. What I

would say, being shot when you are 16 may explain what you go on to do,

in terms of supporting terrorism. It doesn't excuse. It I would also

say, what I thought would be wise, in terms of getting this forum

together, a forum that's supposed to give a voice to people like

Janet and to people like John. It would of been wise to have had a

public appointment process. All victims could have applied. Evelyn

could of come through that and been appointed. It didn't happen that

way. There was a laying on of hands by the Commissioners. My difficulty

is, Janet feel this is way, I have come from mid Ulster, a room full

of victims who feel the same way, it's rubbing their noses in the

dirt. It's OK to say, republicans must have... Who do you define as a

victim? Are you going to let me finish. Answer that question, who

is the victim? The 2006 order is what I've worked to, Alex. Forget

about the legislation. What do you consider to be a victim? Can I

develop the theme? Can I develop the theme? Yeah. OK. What I'm

saying is that the voice of republican victims needs to be

heard at the victims' forum. You don't have to do it with such a

high profile and notorious person, any more than you are saying that

you have to let the views of victims of the Army be heard at the

forum, you don't have to... pick a republican. Would you let me

finish? How would you feel if it was a member of the paratroop

regiment who fired on Bloody Sunday. There will be people on that forum

who are members of the British security forces. You don't have to

be so aggressive. You are the one who is aggressive against Evelyn.

You want to pick who the republican voice is. You need to get with the

programme here. This is about giving a voice to everybody. Could

I establish, would you accept a member of the Parachute Regiment on

that forum? I would accept people who are on that forum who are

victims or who are representatives of victims. If that including a

paratroop member, so be it. I would support their right to be on there

because they are victims of the conflict. Is that progress?

probably is progress. People will feel - Does that make her

acceptable to you? It's not acceptable to Janet or acceptable

to the people I was speaking to in mid Ulster today. All I'm

questioning, I'm just questioning, what is the added value of having a

high profile figure verses the number of people put off by that

name and feel this process, this forum is not representative of my

views, my wishes and my needs. would ban people or restrict people

from the forum because of their profile? I'm questioning. A high

profile? I'm questioning, what is the added value of that high

profile? Brendan? Well, first of all, I can totally understand the

consternation that many people in the community will have today on

hearing of the news of Evelyn Glenn-Holmes appointment. It's

regretment we are in this situation because the Victims' Commission

have been carefully preparing for the victims' forum over a period of

years, actually, Mike would know that. We believe that this is one

the most sensitive conversations to establish, in our society at this

time. The appointment of Mrs Glenn- Holmes needs to be seen in the

context of the 25 people invited to be taken part in the forum and not

being talked about in the media But you have got a situation where

the you like it or locked that Evelyn Glenholmes's name is out

there. So if the context is important, you should get the rest

of those names out pretty quickly. Let me come to that. Just briefly

on Evelyn Glenholmes. The commission has a number of duties,

one is to convene a forum under law, and another is to work to the

definition of a victim which it laid out for the Commission to

follow. In simple terms, it defines a victim as someone who has been

believed -- bereaved or injured or has gone through a traumatic

experience to during the conflict. When Evelyn Glenholmes was 16, some

young man approached her, called her names and shot her. Then there

gun jammed. A 16-year-old girl was called for assassination, shot and

injured, and they attempted to finish it off and murder her. That

was a traumatic experience. So it doesn't matter that she was then on

the run? She went through a traumatic experience which meets

the legal definition. We have tried to make it a representative.

did you choose her? From our knowledge of the victims

constituencies. Were she recommended by Sinn Fein? We did

not follow any recommendations from any political party. It was based

on our knowledge of the sector. you come up with Evelyn Glenholmes?

We among ourselves discerned who best to approach. Based on the

profile? We did not follow the directions of anyone in identifying

the members of the Forum. Re- establish a number of criteria for

representatives. We wished to create a forum that was a microcosm

of the victims' story in Northern Ireland. Mike? I come back to the

point that that may explain her career path, but it doesn't justify

it. Let me take Mike up on a couple of points there. First of all, we

have been anxious to make the victims Forum a place that leads by

example in society. We have come a long way but we are still very

divided, a society struggling to reconcile itself. We need people

from very different backgrounds to come together on a victim's Forum.

It includes people who are coming into a room to meet together for a

period of two years and stay in the room with people they have very

different views to. Not everyone would accept the legitimacy of

everybody else's views. I think Evelyn Glenholmes from your point

of view would have an expertise in regards to the public and prisoners.

There was a representative for that very grip on the pilot form, and

yet there wasn't the same degree of out raged controversy. I think that

proves that it is the individual and the name that has caused the

problem. No one was ever invited to join the pilot victims Forum as a

representative of anything. This time round, we were very clear with

people that they should think for themselves aside from any party or

interest. And how do you feel, Janet? Lock Evelyn, to be shot at

16 is a terrible thing, but it is the decisions that she went on to

after that. She went ahead and took other lives. She bombed places.

do not know that, and she was never convicted of any offence whatsoever.

The ones she has been accused of in the papers. Many people have been

accused of stuff and then found to be innocent, and she has never been

brought through a court. She has never been convicted of any crime

whatsoever. OK, but for her to go through that sort of life and then

chosen to be on the run from whatever she did, that was her

choice, and that was the wrong choice. She should have got help

fund herself and remained an innocent victim, but she didn't.

accept entirely that there are people who will not accept that she

is a bona fide victim. But when you look at the final names when they

are published, and I hope they are published fairly soon, because I am

looking forward to establishing the Forum and it being done in a

transparent way, I think most people, and I am not aware of any

of the other names on the form, I think there will be a lot of people,

I would say who will represent the broader spectrum. What I do believe

is that it is more important for us to look forward on the basis that

then there will be more voices of victims around the table. I want to

make one point. Evelyn Glenholmes has never has said she went on to

be an active republican because she was shot. I just wanted to get that

point across. She is an educated woman who has made her own

decisions. I think we should be looking forward to the next number

of weeks that this forum will be launched publicly, and that for the

first time would give a voice to a range of people who have never had

a voice before. And I want to make the point. We have not got a sheet

of victims -- the treatment of victims right. Those victims voices

will be heard. Let me speak to Manea. Your father was killed by an

irate car bombing 1990. How do you feel about this? I am outraged. How

do you expect us to feel? The IRA killed my dad, and then you are

expecting me to listen to somebody who was in the IRA tell me what I

can and cannot do as a victim? It is the most ridiculous thing I have

ever heard. It will happen on both sides. This isn't going to work. It

is the most outrageous thing I have ever heard, to expect me to listen

to a woman who was in the IRA Tommy my rights as a victim, and for me

to agree with her as a victim. It is crazy. You have suffered as a

victim, and a lot of us have. Do you accept that there are a lot of

people out in the community who are the report from the republican and

nationalist community who would welcome her appointment? I do

accept it, but that doesn't mean I have to accept it. I understand

that. I respect your opinion. But I can't support exclusion of a major

voice in our society. What did you did do? Building,

security work. Is that why he was targeted? Yes. Nobody has ever been

questioned or anything for it. They expect us to forget and walk on.

You can't expect someone like me, and there are a whole lot of people,

and don't shake your head. We will not put up with this. I was shaking

my head for people like myself, my own party, we're not interested in

making people forget the past. are supporting this. I support her

because she is a republican. She has never been convicted of

anything, so let's leave it at that. But at the end of the day, Evelyn

Glenholmes has an important input like any other Republican. Maybe we

need to identify appropriate Republicans. No political leader

has a job to do... Hold on. Let me finish this thread, please. You

said OK to have a republican voice, you're the one who keeps wanting to

tell Republicans who will represent them. That's nonsense, Alex. I

don't know the Republic community as well as you do, but there must

be many people, what about the person on the pilot Forum? His

background was in the republican movement. Did Stephen Nolan do a

show about that? What I am hearing from a lot of people is that there

is a difference between Martin McGuinness as Deputy First Minister

and Sinn Fein Deputy First Minister. A lot of people draw a distinction

between those two things. You might disagree, but that is what I am

telling you. It is not a matter for disagreement. You remember when we

appointed Martin McGuinness as Deputy First Minister, to the

chamber was going to fall in. But that was years ago. The gentleman

here at the front of the classes. Foster respect anyone who has been

a victim, it is clear from this show already that the three people

sitting around this table have clearly not in any way built

anything for the future to deal with the victims and have been

totally unsuccessful. Is it not time that you drafted any way of

younger politicians with fresh thinking trying to move this

forward? What would your way forward be? You can see how

divisive this is. I can see how divisive it is and how tragic it

must be for all of those families. However these guys here, the old

dragons of politics, have failed to move things forward, and what we

need to do there is get some more modern thinking people. I get that

a lot on the radio show. I tried to give these guys as hard a time as I

really can, but I will not have them being pilloried when they are

actually here and trying to engage in the process, and you don't have

anything better to say. If you have something better to say, say it.

They are trying to engage in a peace process with aggression

across the table. What has moved forward? What I or milestones? What

I'll key performance indicators? You are starting a wider debate

about the work of the victims' Commission. We have spent a lot of

time developing the infrastructure for the victims sector, working

with the office of Deputy First Minister to set up the victims

service. People will ask what is the purpose of all of this.

lady who said she has been downtrodden and pushed into the

ground. What support have you achieved? We submitted to

government the comprehensive needs assessment. We submitted to them a

comprehensive assessment which for the first time sets out a very

careful study analysis of the needs of victims, and on the back of that

services are being developed over the next number of years. Service

is already exist, but what a needs assessment does his inform the

development of those services. Where is John Allen tonight? John,

tell me about your son. My son was murdered in November 2003 by the

UVF. I am sitting here tonight from the Unionist background, and I

never thought I would see the day that I would be agreeing with

someone from Sinn Fein. Evelyn Glenholmes has not been convicted

of any crime. Yet the murderers who murdered my son and the spokes

people in the DUP can be elected on to the police board, and I don't

hear any of our police -- politicians complain about that.

And yet Mike can complain about Evelyn Glenholmes and hasn't been

I have questioned the added value of Evelyn Glenholmes. You can see

it has caused offence to others. When you say you are questioning,

it does that mean you have no position on it? I'm being generous.

I'm saying what is the added value. Are you undecided or or for it?

trying to say persuade me of this. There are probably tens of

thousands, certainly thousands, quiet, innocent, unheard of victims.

They are saying, why is this process, what is this process doing

for me? They are looking for signs. The sign that Evelyn Glenholmes has

been appointed... You see, but with all due respect you are a leader

now, leaders give leadership. Leaders have positions. Do you

support Evelyn Glenholmes being in this forum or are you against it?

Well, if you are asking me simply to reflect the views I've been

hearing today ool I would be against it. I'm asking what your

view is. The leadership I'm giving is persuade me. Persuade me what is

the added value of having Evelyn Glenholmes on this forum when the

cost is clear. If people are saying, if that is the way it is this

process isn't for me. I'm a victim. I'm an innocent victim. I never

went looking for trouble. I got injured. When you talk about,

"Innocent "victims, do you distinguish between someone -

course. Have you to distinguish - For the forum. Thomas Bigley

planted a bomb and killed Alan McBride's wife. They would qualify

as victims. They are not the same. One went out to do damage, the

other was innocently going about doing their damage. As Alan McBried

says the two mothers have needs. can talk to him tonight, he is on

the phone. Good evening. What is your view on Evelyn Glenholmes?

think it's unfortunate this story has broken in the way it has. I

mean, at the end of the day, republicans have been sitting in

discussions with all sorts of people for many years. I don't see

this as being any different. The criteria for being on the victims'

forum is that you have to be a victim. From what I heard tonight,

Evelyn Glenholmes was a victim. The forum members haven't raised it as

an issue. They have met on a residential. I have met with

several of them. I haven't heard anyone who came back to me and told

me stories, she is horrible she is on this forum. I think it's the

media in many respects who has actually created this big question.

So, for me, the people on that forum, they are sitting down and

having discussions with people like Glenholmes will question why they

are on the forum. Not because they are uncomfortable with it but

because it has been raised as an issue and people will ask questions

about them. It's unfortunate the story has broken in this way. It

has. Now, we have to deal with. It I think the Commission probable

need to release the names of the forum numbers as soon as possible.

One of the questions I would have is questioning the wisdom of

putting together a forum at a time when whenever the Commission itself

is under some, sort of... It's not certain of its future, in terms of

who is going to be the next... you distinguish between victims? Do

you lend the word, "Innocent" to victims. There is another way of

looking at a hierarchy of victims. Mike is right.he quoted me

correctly. I never put myself on the same page as the innocent woman

going about her business and her son murdered my wife. We would

never agree we are victims in the same way. The most important thing

is the needs of the victims. I totally respect Mrs Begley's right

to have the help she needs. She lost her son. The bomb killed my

wife. We both have needs. Those needs have to be met. The issue of

a hierarchy. Let's park it. We will never agree. The most important

thing is the needs of victims and making sure those needs are best

served. Yes, sir. A few points that confused me as a member of the

public on hearing this news today. I would like to know how that

Commission was set up? Did you go to other models in the World, such

as South Africa, which comes to mind right away. If we don't get

bogged down in the past too much. I respect the views of all the

victims here and people who feel they have been victimised, surely

the people on this forum should put aside their party political

viewpoint and see them selves in a democratic society and be willing

to go forward with democracy at the forefront rather than a political

label. How would the gentleman respond to that? First of all, I

welcome your observation. I have to inform you, this isn't the first

time that we have done this. We wanted to be very careful about

setting up a forum for victims of the Troubles. Including in that

forum people from very different backgrounds. And, therefore, from

2009 to 2010 we ran a pilot version of the forum and brought in the

same range of people we intend to invite into this forum. One person

during that year resigned from the forum because her son was in a

serious accident. Did you follow a model from somewhere else in the

world? We designed a model that fits Northern Ireland. Is it fair

to me to suggest that you are trying to do here, and what Sinn

Fein wants to do, is to have people who were in the IRA on exactly the

same level definition of a victim as someone who was not part of any

armed group what so ever? Is that what you're trying to do? I believe

anybody who lost their life as part of this conflict has been a victim.

There can be no hierarchy of victims. If someone held a gun in

their hand is on the same level - You have to ask yourself why some

young people do that. Is someone who choose to hold a gun in their

han hand, for whatever reason, on exactly the same level as someone

who was in Belfast city centre and was blown up? Well, obviously,

every victim is different and every family will take their own

particular circumstances as their absolute priority. Why would they

not? I don't believe - Do you think they are on the same level?

believe they are on the is a same level.we could have a history

lesson tonight lfplt is no point in doing that. I believe the big

challenge here is, the tough challenge that faces the members of

the forum, from whatever backgrounds they come from, I'm

confident there are a lot of people on that platform or forum I may not

like. That is neither here nor there. I wish them well. They have

a hard job to do working together, trying to work out the voices of

victims from all parts of our society. Let me speak. I wish them

well. Let me speak to Jude White. Your mum, tell me about your mum

Margaret? In the context of this debate, my story is no different

than many of the stories from your audience tonight. With the greatest

respect, I mean she really isn't the issue. Tell me what happened to

her, so that we are clear? house was bombed three times by the

UDF, mum was murdered along with a policeman, Michael Dawson back in

late 83, early 1984. As a direct result of that our family had to

move and the ramifications that go with, you know, with the murder of

someone so close in your family. Tell me this, the people involved

in the murder of your mother, could you contemplate being them labelled

a "victim "requesting? Of course I could. The people who murdered your

mother? Yes, of course I could. How? Why? I will explain it to you.

The very first bomb, for example, my mother told me to go out and

paut pillow under his head. You do what your mother tells you always.

When I looked down and saw this young guy with his arm blown off,

this guy was a victim. This was an ordinary fella. I ask you to

reflect, why would an ordinary fella come to my house? He didn't

know me or my family and place a bomb there. What were the processes

that motivated him to do that? Maybe he didn't value human life

enough, that is why he could never be labelled a victim? Let's get

over yourselves here. -- yourselves here. These things don't happen now.

They haven't happened in a long, long time. Many of these people

that, you know, that politicians now condemn are working night and

day on both sides of the community for peace. Indeed, the peace would

not of been stabilised, in my view, without the help of many of the

protagonists on both the republican and loyalist side. This story has

now broken. I cannot describe how depressed I feel about it. Why?

the basis of what happened over the last two years, you had 30 people

in a room. I know they don't mind me saying, all egos the size of the

Albert Clock, within two or three months, all of that had hatred and

misunderstanding and paranoia had gone and we sat down and worked

together for 18 months. We helped to produce the comprehensive...

Tell me this. The natural venmon, I use that word deliberately, that I

would think would be in any human being, who lost their mum because

somebody killed her, how are you dealing with that venmon? How are

you transferring that venmon into forgiveness? I haven't time for

venmon. If I'm full of hatred I'm useless father, teacher and husband

and all the rest of. It I understand the circumstances of

that bomb and why that bomb took place. I deeply regret the death of

my mother. I deeply regret that that young man was permanently

disabled. I have to ask you this question, the audience too and the

politicians, are you ever going to get over this? Will you put

something decent back into society? I'm not asking you to forget your

loved ones. I'm asking you to understand the context of all of

this is now gone. People worked night and day to make this peace

happen. What this forum is about is about something special, it's about

people who have been affected by this. It's about people, in my view

over the last two years, some of the finest people I have ever met

much I would never of seen these people ever or come into contact

with these people without this forum. You are an incredibly

compelling caller tonight. There is a young man just at the very end

here. How old are you, I'm asking for a reason? I'm 17. A young face

in the audience. How do you feel about all of this? Basically, I

think we need to grow up and move on. I don't mean on victims, in

terms of that pain will never go away. If we say we won't accept any

republicans on, or any members of the IRA onto Commission, or the

forum, how can we say, how can we allow loyalists perhaps or people

from the armed forces. I'm a unionist. If you could hear the

pain in some of the victims who spoke to me tonight. They don't

want this to happen? The same pain son the other side. We can't look

at it from a narrow point of view. We can't think there is only pain

on the unionist side, there is pain on the other side. It may be easy

for you to say, move on, easier with all due respect than someone

who has lost their mum, who has lost their da? Definitely.

Definitely. As long as we have that support there for victims, we don't

ignore them, then we still need to move on to society. What have you

taken out of this tonight? I want to appeal to the audience aened and

to your viewers. I'm 55 years old. I have been working at peace work

since I was 17. Along with my two colleagues I've used every bit of

experience I have from my life to design something that is very

important, very sensitive for Northern Ireland. I want to

reassure you, in approaching every member of this forum we said to

them, listen, we will invite you into a room with people you are not

necessarily going to like. Every one of them has choosen to do that.

It's great that there is a 17-year- old here. The ceasefires are 18

years old. He has no experience of. It I would rather be talking to him

about the fact that one in five young people are out of work. You

can't leave victims behind. Jude, in my experience, fantastic

contributor to the pilot forum, but proves you can't look at all

victims the same way, they don't think the same way. I'm thinking of

Gordon Wilson. I'm a struging Christian. I couldn't be that

forgiving. We have to deal with the past. Sinn Fein has a process

underway. I'm prepared to engage in that. The Ulster union nest nist...

You are opened minded about Evelyn Glenholmes Persuade me. Mike served

as victims' commissioner. With all due respect maybe you haven't

learnt a lot during that period. Thanks for the respect. You need to

give leadership. The issue of victims, as we heard tonight, every

single family who has been victimised or lost a loved one has

their own particular story. Now, what I take encouragement about is

that, even though there are people who may not be able, at this point

in time, to respect someone else's right to be on a forum or to listen

to their opinion, what I take encouragagement is that we are

coming to a new start with a new forum. It's an important

opportunity to be positive. To give the forum the fair wind that the

people on that forum are taking the challenge on. Give them the support

they need support the victims. What sp important is that it's an

inclusive forum with all victims. We will include this on the radio

tomorrow morning. We start on Radio Ulster at 9.00 am. All the details

will come up on the screen. Thank you to my guests.

Obviously my thanks to all the people in this audience, some very

personal stories tonight, and thank you for coming in. Loans if you

have been getting in contact with us while we have been on air, it

drives the show, so please keep it Now, my next guest is considered to

be one of Northern Ireland's most important sporting ambassadors.

45th fight, and nobody has beaten him since 1976... Ladies and

gentlemen, he is one of our own. I phoned my mate earlier on, and I

said, he has got this really firm handshake, he has still got it!

haven't got it up here, so I have got it down here. I lost their hair,

so I tried to keep the body in shape. A lot of fighters when they

retire, they are so sick of dieting their whole career, they let it go

and get overweight. These people who get overweight, can you believe

it?! I love to train, and I enjoy working out in keeping fit.

often do you train? Three times a week. I'd do circuit training. I

run occasionally. I row and two circuits and strength work. I am

just going to ask you tonight, it has been incredible career of yours,

your own incredible ambassador for this place. Just because of what we

have just had, I am wondering in my head, so I know that you are a big

ambassador for education. What do you think about that? You are seen

across the world. What you think about how we should move Northern

Ireland forward? I am conscious of what you have just heard. Have a

That girl did that in six days with me. We had six days to get back

together, and Erin Bird was brilliant. I am aware that there

are people in the studio tonight he had members of their family's

murder down through the years, and I understand that, and I have got

to be careful about what I say. But I have always believed that

integrated education is the very essence of a shared future. I

believe that the difference between integrated education and other

types of education is they don't leave the tradition at the door.

They take their tradition, whether it is a bowler hat Chorus/ -- a

sash, they bring it in and celebrated, and they have a better

level of sensitivity. It has been one of the greatest success stories

in Northern Ireland's history. Even though we are in an economic crisis,

I believe there should be an integrated alternative. We have to

gather support and Golan lobby the government and get it off the

ground. It should be there as an alternative. Do you think we are

moving fast enough? I think we are moving as fast as the people would

be allowed to move, and they think it is very important that respect

people and we start off at the right pace, and we only move when

people are ready to move. They moved in leaps and bounds. But

living in England where it is a multicultural society, blacks and

Indians and Muslims and Chinese and everybody is a big hotchpotch and

everybody gets on. I know they look at Northern Ireland and think, why

can't these guys get on? frustrates me. When I am on Radio 5

Live at the weekend, I think, my heart is embedded in this place.

The people here are fantastic and this is an incredible country, and

it depresses me sometimes when there is a story going around the

UK is another attack, another problem with Northern Ireland.

are getting there, and it is improving in leaps and bounds. We

are building homes at the city hospitals. We have a �4 million

campaign to build two home-from- home facilities where families

whose children are suffering from cancer or leukaemia and are being

treated can stay for free at the hospitals within what we call the

slipper Walk, a short distance. you are an ambassador for that?

Myself and my wife Sandra are fronting this. It is a long drawn-

out process. A ladies and gentlemen, Just when you are talking about

that, you are using your profile to help this country. And I have

noticed quite a few people that are carrying the Olympic torch here.

Are you? No. I am a little surprised and slightly disappointed

that I wasn't picked to do it, but every day I meet people who say

that my career as a boxer and an ambassador for Peace gave them

greater joy, and that is what matters to me. Why are you

disappointed? How ever many people there were, 60 or 80 people, who

went from Belfast to Dublin, you would think they could have found

one spot for me. APPLAUSE I tell you what, you are

not saying it, but I will. Let's have a look at one of the

people who is carrying the Olympic torch. Jedward. Yes, the two boys

on the right, I am not sure. Maybe I am just jealous of their hair.

you would have liked to? The thing that matters to me is that people

tell me every day how much my career mattered to them. And you

don't ask, you expect to be asked. Did they not think being world

champion was enough? It sounds better, so I don't want to get into

it. A spokesman for the London Organising Committee of the Olympic

Games said the majority of London's 2012 places went to the public

nomination programme where Is this guy at a local hero, and is

in amazing sportsman, ladies and Perhaps Jedward are amazing

sportsman. I have nothing against Jedward. They are good fun.

overran on the first item, so I have a limited amount of time with

you. What does your future hold? What I your dreams and ambitions?

Young Carl Frampton, he is such a great kid... I think we can see

this guy's physiques somewhere. Why can't I look like that? And that's

10 weeks of the caveman Paley a diet of that gets him into shape.

will give you my house if you can The reality is that is a lifetime

of dedication, that young kid. He has just won the IBF

intercontinental title, it puts him in the top 10 in the world, he is

the Commonwealth champion. Coming back to Belfast in September for a

big fight, we really want to bring his big fights back to Belfast. I

believe he can be a world champion, he is so dedicated and talented. I

manage him. And, Barry, he's got a great manager, and thank you so

much for being on the programme. Ladies and gentlemen, Barry

Now, the shocking story of a teenager, Georgia Davis, who at 63

stone made headlines when foreign ambulance crews demolished two wars

of her house to get her to hospital. The BBC documentary backing 2009

shows George approach to attending a weight loss residential school in

the States. She was already struggling with her 33 stone weight.

Just three years later, despite losing weight at the camp, she

ballooned to 63 stone. If a mother was allowing her teenage daughter

to abuse drugs, drink or sell sex, social services would have been

called and a long time ago. That is what need thinks. Please welcome

Obesity is all about to cry for help. Jenny should know, she lost

That lady, 63 stone. You need to have at least some sympathy, some

understanding of how someone gets to that stay -- outsize. They are

not doing it deliberately. I have some sympathy for her in what I

think her mother did to her. She should be in prison because of it.

She was over feeding her daughter from the age of five. If you don't

say that his abuse against children, I don't know what is. When you say

she should be in prison, she has done nothing illegal. If this was

alcohol, drugs, social services would be in straightaway, and yet

with food, everyone turns a blind eye. That makes me want to cry. Do

you have children? There is not a mother in the world that doesn't

feel that they are doing the right thing for their child. Almost every

mother in this audience will tell you... I disagree. I think it is

very selfish. In America they study feeders for a long time.

He let's talk about the individual. Let me explain a couple of things

to you. What we are doing, which in a strange way is a lot like the

conversation we're having before, what we have been doing in a

relationship to a lot of problems does not work. An attitude like

what you have does not work. And it is very obvious that it doesn't

work. And so what we need to do is look at a weight in a different way

than we have fears. If you have a seven-year-old child and therein

school and hitting other kids and cursing the teacher, they are sent

off for tests. Are they ADHD? Is there something wrong? To say what

you saying about this child? get into that. We only have a

couple of minutes. The fact about weight is that eating too much is

often a different way of coping. And that is what needs to be

addressed. Find out why the child is doing it. It is not what you eat,

it is why you eat it. It is about addressing the wide. So, understand.

I heard a great exercise the other day, you move your head to the left

and to the right when somebody offers you food. Wise up! And let's

actually cut the stuff about this woman and, you are telling me it is

easy? I have been three stone heavier. I asked my mum, why did

you tell me I had to lose weight? In she said, I owed it you as a

mother. My mother is 5 ft 10 and weighs eight-and-a-half stone. I

used to be six stone bigger than I was now. My issues with food had

nothing to do with what my mother was doing. The weight that I have

lost had to do with a different health issue, and I had to have a

bypass, I didn't have a band. And what I am learning now is that I

have to develop an entirely different set of coping mechanisms,

because it used to be that if I got angry, at a cupcake. If I got

really angry, I had to cupcakes. So now I am learning a different

mechanism. That is what we need to teach people. It is about self-

control and taking responsibility for your own health. You are

playing the violin, but all I hear his excuses from your side of the

The address is on your screen. Thank you for kicking this off