Episode 10 The Nolan Show

Horsemeat - can we trust what's in our food any more? Is it safe? And

how are they get ago way with this? The minister is here to answer

questions. There's a row over pensioners - why should they get

free bus travel if they can afford to pay for it themselves? And dead

for 78 minutes, former Premiership footballer, Fabrice Muamba is here

APPLAUSE CHEERING

This is a brilliant crowd tonight. It's a fantastic crowd. Thank you

for coming in. Thank you for watching at home. We're going to

have a big show tonight, some very important subjects for us to cover.

As always on The Nolan Show, you at home, important as well to take

part. Let's see how you can get in Now, how can we trust what's in our

food any more? We were told we were eating beef, when actually, we

could have been eating horse and some of the biggest retailers in

the country didn't know what they were selling us. Big names caught

up in this, the likes of Tesco and Findus. Let's get into what's

actually happening here and try to get under the skin of this and find

out where we are as consumers. With me now the minister for agriculture,

Michelle O'Neill. We have a food safety expert with us, Professor

Chris Elliot as well. Minister, we appreciate you coming in. Let's

start with the food safety aspect of this. Can you give an assurance

to the Northern Ireland public tonight that the processed food

they are eating is totally safe? can give an assurance to the public

that the local produce is safe. That's the message that I'll

continue to promote. Throughout all this incident over the last number

of weeks, I'm the farming minister. I'm here to support the farming

industry who are not involved in this vaection. It's processed meat

that's being discussed, that's at the corner stone of the

investigation. It's very important to me to make sure there's no

reputational damage to local farmers. You're very much

distinguishing between local produce and processed food?

Absolutely. Can you give an assurance to the public that

processed food, being sold in Northern Ireland, is safe? Let's be

very clear about the rules here. At the centre of the investigation,

the FSA are leading this investigation. At the centre of

that is processed food. It's their role to get to the bottom of this,

skpod what's happened, -- skphroz what's happened, bring those to

court if that's needed. My role is farming minister. I will support

the local farming industry, who are not involved in this. FSA have to

account for processed food. Processing companies are

accountable. I'll stand over our local produce that's got full

traceability. There's no doubt on that. You're a minister in our

Government, in our devolves Government. It's not, some people

might feel it's not your fault, but I need to ask the question. You've

met the FSA today, for example. Absolutely. Having met the FSA

today, are you in a position to assure everyone tonight that

processed food, in your view, is safe to eat in Northern Ireland?

I'm going to continually make the point. Sow can't. The FSA need to

make that statement. They say there's no food safety risk. Do you

believe them? I have to accept the advice of the Chief Medical Officer.

Would you eat it at the moment? Yeah I would. The Chief Medical

Officer is someone we look to for leadership. If he sells it's safe.

I'll accept that position. I've got in front of me here, a report

published in July 2012, because we're only hearing about this at

home. We're only hearing about this in the last few weeks. When did you

first know? The incident that occurred in south of Ireland, we

knew about that 15th January, would be the date when that was made

public. You didn't know before January? No, absolutely not.

you sure? 100%. You knew in January 2013. That we had an incident that

curd in the south of Ireland. That's interesting. Let me read

this. I have a document from the receipt naer residues committee.

They are -- veterinary, they are an independent advisory committee that

advised the Government. They said in July 2012, wait for this, the

veterinary residues committee has repeatedly expressed concern over

residues of bute entering the food chain. It can have serious adverse

effects in consumers. In July 2012 they were repeatedly expressing

concern to government about bute. This is a UK organisation you're

talking about. What I'm talking about. And your advisors don't know

what the British Government are being told. You're loseing the

point. I'm here as the farming minister. Put it beyond doubt that

local produce is safe. Quite a few of us are eating processed food.

The incident involved in the investigations at this time, on the

15th of January, we were made aware there was an issue of burgers in

the south. Then, on February 1 this year, then we were made aware there

was an investigation now started into a company, an ongoing

investigation. Are you seriously telling me we're in a situation

here where if there's an advisory body, a respected body telling the

UK Government, are you telling me there's no chain of communication

to Stormont? Nobody in Stormont knew about this. Did anybody in

Stormont know about this? Let's go back to where it started. The FSA

are the lead in this investigation. It's them you need to post these

questions to. I'm responsible for the farming community and I will

stand up for that farming community. Well, we tried. We tried to put it

to the Food Standards Agency here in Northern Ireland tonight. By the

way, the Food Standards Agency in England I had on the radio show on

Friday. You also pay for the Food Standards Agency here, a separate

body here in Northern Ireland. It's led by this guy. This is the

director of the Food Standards Agency in Northern Ireland. He

leads the organisation. We asked, there he is, we asked the Food

Standards Agency if they could reassure you in this audience and

you watching at home by coming into the studio and explaining to us

what food is safe and what isn't. The answer is no. They don't want

We'll come to that statement in a second or two. They would not come

in and speak to you this evening. That is a pity, Michelle. I think

so. It's a real pity. Because these issues need to be separated out.

They might need to be separated out. It's interesting that you're a

member of our Government here in Northern Ireland and people like

you and others call for a devolves Assembly for many, many years.

still fully stand over that and support it. You now have it. Are

you seriously telling me you're a by-stander when people are saying

is our processed food safe? saying our food is safe. Processed

food? Our local produce. I'm not responsible for the Food Standards

Agency. You don't know? No, I've answered the question. The Chief

Medical Officer says it's safe. I accept his advice. He's an expert.

This document here published in July 2012 we don't know of anybody

in Stormont read it or knew about it. You can dismiss the issue...

It's up to you. There's always ongoing issues across the supply

chain of food. It's a very complicated area. OK. Thank you for

coming in. No problem. I appreciate it. Chris, you're a food safety

expert. Can you explain to us, just run us through the basics of this.

What we have got is we have got beef which wasn't beef. Actually it

was being replaced with horse. Horse can be safe. Indeed horse is

eaten in many countries throughout the world. However, some horses

have actually got bute injected into them by vets. When that

happens what the system is supposed to do is it's to distinguish

between those horses with the substance injected into them and

those that haven't. If there's any Bute in a horse, we're not supposed

to eat it, correct? As soon as that drug is administered to any food

producing animal it becomes unfit for human consumption. That report

thaw refer to by the veterinary residues committee that actually

deals with the legitimate consumption of horsemeat. You're

confusing that with the processing. That was really about horse that's

were being tested in GB that were coming up positive for this drug.

What the committee were saying is we need to be careful because

they're going into the food chain now. I don't think they suspected

at that time it was ending up in processed foods. You could argue

it's even worse now? It really was a pointer to where problems lay in

relation to the whole issue of horsemeat getting into the human

food supply chain. As you refer to, there is horse -- a horse passport

system. When a horse is treated with this drug the passport is

stamped. What the veterinary residue committee were saying, even

when horses were being treated with the drug they're getting into the

supply chain. That's what they were very worried about. So, in terms of

the risk, what we want to know as ordinary people is, what's our

level of risk? And our level of risk is not that high, is that

fair? By pure luck the answer is yes. The risk is very, very low.

This was a drug that was used quite frequently in the 50s and 60s to

treat people with arthritis actually. But what was found in a

small number of cases people developed a very serious disease of

the bone marrow. Actually some people died from it. Whenever that

happened, it was thought that those particular drugs cannot be used in

food production. Now, those horses that the drug has been used in,

whenever they get into the food chain, the am of drug is tiny, tiny

amounts. The risk is very low, but there's no such thing In Compliance

life as zero risk. So there is a risk? You can't calculate the risk.

In relation to what the residues committee are saying is we don't

know if there's any risk at all, so the best thing is let's keep this

material out of the supply chain. But it got into the supply chain,

so there is a risk, but not a significant risk? It's a tiny risk.

So what we're actually doing here is we are relying on criminals to

have a certain level of decency about them then. How farcical is

this? So what we're actually doing is relying on criminals to replace

horsemeat instead of beef, but we're expecting them not to put

anything that's dodgy for us into that. Either someone has been

grossly neglect or someone has been involved in fraudulent activity.

That's what I think we need to have the thorough investigation. I think

until that happens, until people have answered, nobody's going to

have confidence in the supply chain. That's something that we need to

grapple with. We must push the FSA to make sure it happens. Are you

confident in the FSA? I'll reserve judgment. Should they have

monitored this over many years? think the investigation will throw

up a number of witnesss in terms of the testing processes. You're good

at ducking my questions tonight. No! I'm answering them. So the Food

Standards Agency, it is their responsibility to monitor our food

and keep our food safe? In terms of processed food, yes. If there's a

cock-up, if I am eating horse and I'm told it's beef, is it their

responsibility? Yes, but it's also the industry's responsibility, the

people involved in processing, the supermarkets all have a role to

play here in terms of restoring confidence. This might be a

revelation to you tonight and it might not, just to let you know

that you're currently being told by some of these retailers and the

industry that you are eating horsemeat and they're apologising

for this and saying look, we're really sorry, we decided on The

Nolan Show to ask a follow-up question to that. The question was

In cases were of meat products have contained horsemeat, can you assure

the public that this was in fact forcemeat and not other organs for

parts? Do you want to see what they said? Have a look... No, DNA

It will not distinguish. Have you been eating horse never work

kidneys or testicles? What? -- liver or kidneys. Absolutely right.

This has concerned me from the start, concerns about horsemeat but

nobody has proven that it was horsemeat at all. It could be

anything. Any part. And when you talk about the fact that it has

been done and legally, will people put the best copse into rogue

products? That is unlikely. If any company says we're sorry, we don't

know. The testing just distinguishes between horse and

beef. Part of the current food standards agency investigation will

follow up on how much make was there and we might be surprised. --

meat. Horsemeat aside, are you testing for dog and rat? What else?

I must make the point that I am responsible for the local industry,

which we can stand over. That is a question for the FSA. Let's ask.

Thank you for coming in. Who else have we got?! You are a chef?

say that you can stand by local produce. Of companies like Findus,

how do we check? That is part of the investigation. But what we can

stand over his local farmers, who go through a rigorous assessment

and come through so many hopes in being able to put products out for

the public that are assured and they can stand over. From field to

the fork, totally traceable. Totally top end produce. Whenever

it comes to processed products like Findus, that is imported. Are you

telling people that until we get these results, eat the local

produce on me? Why not? Is that what you are saying? It is

something we can stand over, local produce. Nobody can give any

assurance over processed food. That is the message that I have

consistently made, by local produce. Edwina Currie, former minister, you

went through this with eggs? What is your view? With eggs, 25 years

ago, we had a lot of sick people so the main problem was we had

contaminated food and it was dangerous, causing a lot of food

poisoning and death. The situation now is quite different. Horsemeat

is actually better for you than beef. Especially if you eat less of

it. Is it? Is it horsemeat war is at Horse balls?! Kidneys and liver?

Kidney and liver is even better for you. These are products that are

eaten as delicacies in many other countries. Only the UK gets

squeamish about this. Can I just have a little go. Michelle is a

government minister, she isn't a spokesperson for promotional for

farmers. They have people who do that. She is appointed an elected

in order to look after the members of the public and I don't think you

can are automatically say, because it is produced in one place it is

automatically say. It has to go through all the testing. It has to

be processed and packaged. She needs to be perhaps more upfront.

We can stand over local produce, I take my role very seriously and I

think that one of my key roles is to support the farming industry.

you are wrong. You are saying exactly the sort of things that the

Ministry of Agriculture was saying in London during the eggs crisis

and they would defending bad practice. We had a lot of sick

people them and we don't now. represent the farming community?

lay the blame firmly at the door of supermarkets. Supermarkets made

farmers jump through hoops. Quality assured, green fields, country-

style living, family farms, everything the public wants. And

they fly to France and by ready meals made with De Beers meat

involved in their processed meals. They're trying to get the cheapest

they can and there is a demand for very cheap food. She isn't always

best, as we have learned. Beef isn't that expensive, people might

think so but we cannot afford a contract mobile-phone or satellite

television. It is a matter of choice. The man and a white shirt?

You said about buying local produce and there is a demand for cheaper

food, so should do with the amount of money that Stormont is getting

from Westminster, the Government could subsidise food in

supermarkets to make home-grown produce cheaper? And the very back?

He said that people should buy local produce but what about the

lower middle-classes who cannot afford that? Should they just

suffer? Are you saying that you have an option? Not personally but

there are people living on the breadline who cannot afford local

produce for every meal. Tell me this - if you are looking at this

and what is happening is the industry is in a mess, that's a

fair comment. What has happened is that horsemeat is cheaper than beef,

so what has been replaced. Are there any other types of food, not

brand names, coming to mind where you would think, for example, will

lamb? Is there testing? In Europe, since the days about Lynne Curry,

the UK and Great Britain, right across Europe, has concentrated on

the safety of the food supply chain. We have actually forgotten about

the integrity. So there is a massive amount of food fraud that

goes on around the world and I could list dozens of different food

commodities that have fraudulent activity. Would that be affecting

us in Northern Ireland? Statistics say that 10% of all food we buy it

has some fraud associated with it. 10%? And that can be claims on the

label that are not true. It might say that it is organic and it might

not be or beef when it isn't. There is a very low level of testing of

the integrity of the supply chain. Safety, since the days of Edwina

Currie, absolutely but not integrity. We are going to continue

with this discussion. Thank you for coming in, and win a curry. And the

Minister. Round of applause? -- Edwina Currie. Well... The number

is on the screen. Here is what is still to come. He said he was dead

for 78 minutes, Fabrice Muamba is here tonight to tell us his amazing

story. Before we move on, let's look on the screen as to hide you

Gregory Campbell has told The Nolan Show just this morning that when he

turns 60 this week, he will get his free bus pass. Here is the debate,

he has said he will be using it. Despite the fact that he could

choose to pay. If you have a pass it doesn't mean you have to use it

and an MP earns �65,000 so should people who have a lot of money

still get stuff free just because they are pensioners? Because they

have worked all their life? Joining me is best to spend Bill Jeffrey,

Maeve Cory's, but first there for a studio has Gregory Campbell.

Gregory Campbell? Happy birthday, by the way. I like to give you lots

of products. Yes, I have noticed! Why should someone on your a type

of money take more money from the system rather than paying for it

yourself? As a society, we have to decide if there is such a thing as

a universal system of benefits or entitlements or if we move towards

means-testing. The simplest approach is to have a universal

system so everybody who qualifies gets it and that is what we do with

travel. Means testing has a number of problems, because everybody --

those who are most likely to benefit are actually the people

there are the least likely to apply and get. Gregory, you don't have to

means test, you could decide as a point of principle that you have

enough and other pensioners could decide and do not take more money

from the system if you don't have to? As I said this morning, the

places where I would be moving about our places that there are not

many trains and buses so it is unlikely that I will be in a

position to use it but I would, as would anyone. Because pensioners

have a sense of entitlement, they should get it just because they

have paid into the system? It's at the Universal or not, if you means-

test people them what you do is you will not get targeting the people

who can most use this. People who don't bother using it are the

people who are likely to apply for it and get it. Argue not

embarrassed? If I was on a secret salary from the public purse and I

was 20 years away from getting it, like you, I would be really

embarrassed. This sort of argument makes me incandescent. His attitude

is wrong. There is no doubt in my mind that bus passes are for

pensioners who are struggling to make a living in society. There is

an upper quartile of the population, about 2%, and they are the rich and

well-heeled and they have no entitlement to free bus passes,

heating allowances or free television. Although they have

worked for 30 years? Every paced up, a National Insurance taken away?

They don't get we just like us, they get dividends. But they have

worked all their lives? Pensioners should get it, pensioners who have

an income under 40 per �1,000. matter the income, they still have

worked on other life? Are they not entitled to something? -- �45,000.

The state has allowed those people in Northern Ireland to make a

fortune, they get enough. What you want to happen is, do people go

back onto the roads? Eight year- old? There is a reason for this as

well. -- 18 year-olds. There are social reasons. Yet they are not

using it to go down and have a cup of coffee with the girls and come

back and pulled down to town and look around, they are using it for

basic things. Going to the Post Office and the bank and to the

doctor. You are trying to take this away? You should be ashamed.

Looking at the most vulnerable, trying to say. It will not make

much of a difference. The administration costs, that will eat

into the amount that you would say if? What about the millionaire's

tax? Why waste your time debating... Anybody who has income at 65, when

retired, over �45,000, they should not be getting a free bus pass.

They are not in need of that. Leicester could the other free

staff - that pensioners will actually get... This is what they

Now, I want to hear from you tonight on the phones. Let's go to

Robert on the line. Hello. Stephen, I would like to say very

clearly, pensioners left school when they were 14, 15 years of age.

Worked practically 50 years of their life and they're entitled to

free benefits, basically what I'm sear here is, I think it's a total

disgrace by the Government what they're doing to our senior

citizens. The Government actually is giving it. I'm questioning not

whether pensioners who are poor should get it, I'm questioning

whether pensioners who actually are not poor, they've got a couple of

quid, whether they should get it. Guy in the back, yes, sir. I think

there's an issue of safety as well. Regardless of a pensioner's salary

or how much money they have, at a certain age, their driving in the

car may not be safe. My grandmother is 82 and I obl feel comfortable of

her driving small distances. Thank you very much. Hello Maria, what do

you think? I sort after gree with you. I only asked the question.

Sorry. Don't be pinning me for having a position, do you know why?

My mother is in her 70s and she's here tonight and she'll kill me if

she loses her bus pass. I don't want to get you in trouble, but I

do think that it should not be abolished for pensioners that

actually deserve it and need it. But whenever you're earning a lot

of money in really hard economic times, there have been cuts across

all boards. Students are feeling it, everybody's feeling it. If you can

afford it, you should pay for it. Students are feeling it, what have

they had to cut back on, a couple of beers? Not at all. If I want to

go to England next year, I want to pay �9,000. I was a student as well.

What were your fees? The vulnerable are using it to get from A to B.

It's a life line. It's their freedom to the outside world so

they can be social. It's also, if you talk about saving money as well,

right, if you take away their free travel, what are they going to do,

they're going to be dangerous on the roads. They're not getting any

exercise. That little walk to the bus, no genuinely, they've proven

this. This is nonsense. This decreases the risk of heart attack

by 12%. In the long run you save on medical bills. A free bus pass

decreases the rifpbg of a heart attack? Absolutely. Because they're

walking to the bus. They do help our deserving pensioners get out

and spend money and become social and that sort of thing. There are

two classes of people in Northern Ireland. There's us and there's the

ones who are very well off. The one who's are very well off could

afford to buy the bus, never mind travel in it for free. That's

absolutely true. Do you want them to be on the roads and drive around.

I wouldn't fancy you driving around in ten years' time. They don't have

to go to the supermarket. They send the man servant to the supermarket.

Gregory, this is a serious subject. The reason being this: We do have

hard decisions to make in Northern Ireland and actually, that money

that we are using on elderly people, for those elderly people who don't

need it, that's money that could otherwise go to - you could give

more money to poorer elderly people if you took it off richer elderly

people. You could push money into the younger generation. It's a

serious debate this. It is. But, look, the problem is once you go

towards the means testing principle, then you have to start the bench

mark. Do you say it's people who earn more than �50,000, 6,000 --

60,000 or 70,000, once you do that, there will be the concern amongst

many that that's just a start. That it will be 40,000 and then 30,000.

So that fewer and fewer people will qualify for what is something that

everyone over a certain age should get. Yes, there are a range of

things we should cut back on, but free travel and free television

licenses for over 75s is not, they're not two of them. Sir Alan

Sugar should get a winter fuel allowance? And he should be sent

�200 and get a free bus pass if he comes to Northern Ireland? The cost

of trying to exclude Sir Alan Sugar is going to be excluding thousands

of others that deserve it. That's the problem. Yes in the glasses.

I'd like a question to the lady with the blonde hair, the points

I'd like to make to you, when you hit retirement age and for talk

sake, you have several thousand in the bank, would you take a bus pass

or would you refuse it? I'd take the bus pass. Because I deserve it.

Because I've earned it. It's not something for nothing. You've

worked all your life. You've contributed your taxes and some of

the elderly at the moment they paid higher taxes than we ever will.

It's not something for nothing. It's all take, take, take nowadays.

Listen to him. You've several thousand in the bank when you

retire, you're going to take a free bus pass, why not spend the money

on taxis? Because I've earned it. don't think they should take at

loupbs off people who deserve it. But someone like Geoffrey who is

earning such a massive salary. Greggly. Sorry, Gregory. Would it

not be better to take it off people who can afford to take a bus and

distribute it more to people who need the free pass? There's a lady

in the white top and the glasses. I've been listening here and it

seems like because you work hard and you study hard and you get

yourself a good job, you earn good money. Because you have sacrificed

your life you're going to be penalised when you become a

pensioner. No, that's not the case. APPLAUSE

I take your point. But that is not the point. I say, if you earn or

your pension comes in and you're getting over �45,000 a year, you

don't need a free bus pass. You should not be getting the �200 a

year winter heating allowance. And that can be done so easily by the

revenue. They know when you take a deep breath in the revenue. They

know who the supertax and the upper brackets are. They can stop that

like that there. Can I just say... Hold on. Let that lady reply.

still penalising people for working hard and earning money and being

safe with their money that they're able to put some by for a rainy day.

Ann is on the line. Hello? Hello. What do you think? I want to make

the point thaw said to Gregory Campbell, he was taking money out

of the economy. Now from my point of view, he is actually adding to

the economy by using a bus pass. I'll give you an example. I'm a

pensioner. I live in Derry here. I travel quite often on a firm here

which runs buses... Don't call it Derry in front of Gregory. He knows

what I mean. By the way, that bus is always, there's loads of buses

now being started up, that business started in a small way. Now it is a

thriving business and it depends on pensioners like myself using that

bus. Thank you so much for calling me tonight. I'm only moving on

because we've got loads of people who want to talk about it. The guy

here. Some pensioners don't pay tax because they haven't been working

all their lives and they might not deserve this free bus pass. I think

there's better things the Government could be spending money

on. Lots of young people wanting to talk about here. I'd like to ask

Geoffrey... It's Gregory! Can I just tell you, to be fair to

Geoffrey, he's not that old looking. The fellow in the yellow tie.

Where are you pulling the figure of 45,000 a year from? Seemles you

have dreamt it up as an arbitrary line. What about people who earn

�44,000 a year. What is the difference, why should they be

penalised and they're not. It's a figure I'm suggesting. You picked

it out of the sky? You don't know all my trade secrets. Maybe his

mother doesn't come under it. a reasonable figure. If you earn

that amount of money you can afford to go on the bus and you don't need

the central heating money as well. Yes the lady there. What message

are we sending out to the youth of today that if you work hard all

your life, you'll not get entitlements to somebody else who

has never worked a day, never given any tax, nerve done anything and

they will get a reward that you won't get. What message is that to

the youth to make people want to go out and get a job and work? It's

another discussion that we can continue now on Twitter, @Stephen

Nolan. When is your birthday Gregory? Happy birthday Bill.

you. Geoffrey, thank you for joining us this evening. Thank you.

You wouldn't get it anywhere else. He says he was dead for 78 minutes.

It's an amazing story. Our next guest was lying in the middle of a

Premiership football pitch last year. From nowhere he had dropped

to the ground. Then he was surrounded by doctors who were

furiously trying to save his life. This has become a story talked

about around the world. I'm so, so proud and I'm so grateful that he's

chosen to come here to this programme and in Northern Ireland.

Ladies and gentleman, can we give him a big Northern Ireland welcome,

Fabrice Muamba. CHEERING AND Listen, Geoffrey, can I say it's

really good to have you here. LAUGHTER

What an incredible story and we're going to let it unfold in front of

us tonight. I want to remind us all at home about this, this dreadful

moment and how it unfolded, when moment and how it unfolded, when

you collapsed to the ground. Let's have a look. A player collapsed and

I don't think any player was surrounding him. Muamba is down.

They're calling for a stretcher straight away. Modric is calling

for the stretcher. Whether he had a fit on the field, I'm not sure.

looked down and there was Muamba face into the ground. They've now

turned him over. The paramedics, quickly on the scene. They are

giving Fabrice Muamba resuscitation giving Fabrice Muamba resuscitation

out on the pitch. We can only hope that Fabrice Muamba is OK. But very,

very distressing scenes because everybody can see what is actually

happening. The supporters of both sets inside

White Hart Lane are chanting the name of Fabrice Muamba. They're

watching on hoping that Fabrice Muamba, who is fighting for his

life, can pull through here. They are continuing to resuscitate

Fabrice Muamba as he is being stretchered off. We can only hope

that Fabrice Muamba pulls through. that Fabrice Muamba pulls through.

Pretty cool, right? Riez What had you felt in the run up to that on

the pitch, did you feel anything was wrong? Leading to the game, I

didn't feel not tired or dizzy, I was very excited. Because two weeks

before, I wasn't playing. So I got very, very angry. If you talk to

any footballer, they tell you, when they're not playing, they're not

nice to be around. It's kind of like when the BBC axes my show. I

know what it's like. My fiance at the time, I would give her a talk

at the time this and that, why I'm not playing. Leading to the game,

when I was told I was playing, I was really looking forward to it.

Hopefully I could get back in the starting 11. What you had been

doing was you decided you were fit, but in the run up to, that you

decided to get even fitter, right? Coming back to the Premiership,

last year, I took probably like, we normally have six weeks off, so I

took four weeks off. Then two weeks leading to go back to training, I

went to America. I mean I train like crazy. I train, train, train.

How hard, what were you doing? Everything you could think of. No

drugs stuff, but physically, everything you could think of -

weights, running. More than you'd ever done before? Yeah. I just went

running and running. If I came back pre-season and look fitter, I'd be

able to start playing more regularly and push on in my career.

Leading to the game I didn't feel no tired, no dizzy, just before the

incident happened I just literally felt this diziness and I lost

control and my heart just went. you collapsed onto the ground.

think the first time my head hit the ground and the second time I

was literally gone. I was gone. What's your next state of

consciousness. 70-odd minutes later? 78, yes, but I didn't wake

up. I didn't wake up till the Monday. I was sleeping, well I

start breathing at 79 minutes. stopped breathing for 79 minutes.

Yes then on Monday that's when I went "Oh, what's going on here?"

Then I found out. Everybody had to tell me what happened. I didn't

believe it could happen to me. you had collapsed onto the ground,

luckily there were doctors and Med ics and amazing peming who rushed

onto the pitch and saved your life. I think I had the right people at

the right time in the right place. Because if this would have happened

in my bedroom, I don't think I would be able to be here. Because

if you look at the history of cardiac arrest, not many people

survive this. For me to be where I was and to be where I am right now,

it's credit to the medical staff. Are there any doctors that

particularly come to mind? Everybody that day. The man in the

stand, he came to the game. He was a fan and he rushed on? It was his

cousins took it. A and the club doctor from Bolton? He was great

and the guys... He was a mate of yours? Yes. What did John of India?

CPR. And the guys from Spurs, -- what did Jonathan do. He is here to

You have some water in your eyes! What did you do? What first entered

her mind? I was tracking the ball and it was away from him and I

heard screaming on the headphones, get onto the pitch and he had

collapsed and Iran on and he was not breathing. I knew that

something serious was happening and that at Dortmund, I cannot think or

see straight. The intensity was horrendous. You're trying to get

his heart to start again? Yes. longer it has stopped, the more

likely is there will be damage? Firstly, we were trying to make

sure we had enough oxygen provided. To give the defibrillator time to

work. I did mouth to mouth. That was not a particularly pleasant

experience! When he came round, his wife said that he was pleased that

he had asked for her and not for me! There was some chest

compressions for 78 minutes and we were shocking his heart. Was there

any moment when you thought, he is dead and he isn't coming back?

yes. When I got to hospital, 38 minutes, chest compressions and I

was still wearing football boots. I was standing around in the

ambulance. A paramedic was holding me because I could not get any

purchase on the floor. If I was not involved, I would not have believed

this. The hospital staff then took over. And there were just

unbelievable. It was a longer hands-on, I just slid down the wall

and I cried. You write about this in your book? Hearing the story

about Jonathan? Crying? He is a doctor. We go along way back. I

have so much respect for him. Not just for what happened but every

single time, we have become very good friends and I love him to

death. When you were on the pitch and you were in big trouble, where

was your child? Joshua? He actually saw what happened. Daddy is on the

floor. He needs to get up. He kept repeating that. She started to

panic. Come over to the house, she had to go over. It was a very

difficult time. For her heart to stop for 79 minutes. 78 and its. --

minutes. Is it not likely that you are not brain-damaged?

professor, this is his speciality, looking after people who have

arrested. In 20 years, he has never heard of a case where it has been

for that length of time and that is the coincidence. One of the most

high-profile cardiac arrests that has happened and the one where we

had the most extraordinary result. For those two things to coincide is

pretty amazing. You fought back. is. How difficult was it, to terms

with nearly dying? It did not hit home until I heard the story in

Italy. I knew this was big stuff. He was a footballer, he did not

make it. And I did. This is bigger than what it seemed to be. I just

had the right people at the right time. And they did an extremely

good job. There is the young man in the audience who has a similar

condition to you. Christmas meal? Hello. You have something similar?

Yes. What happened? I was playing in the Milk Cup, the youth football

tournament, and I collapsed seven minutes into the first game. I had

a cardiac arrest and my heart had stopped. And what next? I am not

the right person to ask, I was out of it. As far as I know, they

worked on me for 15 minutes and eventually, one of my team-mates,

his father was a doctor, and he ran on and give me mouth to mouth. Bit

embarrassing! After 20 minutes, by Mathew -- my heart started. What

does it feel like to be that close to death? It does that really kick

in. I don't really remember the day for much of the next month. But I

do remember days in hospital and I heard on radio that a Gaelic

football player had not made it, and that is when it hits home.

There are no different. What does it feel like a, b have been

training so hard and have pushed yourself to the limit in America,

you have come back and the dream was to keep playing football and to

have to stop? The dream is over? When I think about this out, the

biggest train that was over when I collapsed, I was gone. There is no

coming back from that one. If you manage to get over that, then

surely you can achieve anything in your life. Because nobody wants to

die. And for my heart to stop beating 478 minutes. Everything was

against me. I would have been disabled, brain damage, everything

you could think of. To come back from this and here I am. My career

is over, I am disappointed. But it is at the end of the world.

yard to blessed? 100%. -- you are to blessed? That is how I look at

life. A lovely phrase that used was every breath is a victory? I looked

at those words. I think about that at home. Every breath is a victory.

And then think about how we take that for granted, every breath.

have seen the picture of me in the hospital. I don't want to go back

there. Every breath that high-tech, I was getting better. Getting good.

I had a problem with my heart beat, it was irregular. I just hope that

I can get the Tabard working. My heart is getting back to normality.

For me, every breath that I take, there is more out there that I can

do. Football has finished, yes, but it is like driving a car, you reach

a dead end and you have to go on a different direction. I have been

talking on Radio 5 Live about Paul Gascoigne and about how troublesome

it was for him when the football ended and there was that massive

void in his life. You seem to be... I have got no time to waste. To

feel sorry for myself. To sit down and say, this could have happened,

I like to think that I am very sensible. I have a big family.

Another child on the way, Mr! have to think wisely. I don't drink.

Only now and again. At the same time, I have no time to waste.

must have been amazing going back to your club. We can look at this.

Here it is... What does that feel like? Look at that reception?

was massive. Just to go out there. To see the Bolton fans for the

first time again. It was a great day. It was very emotional. Even in

the morning, I was thinking, I changed my mind twice. I don't want

to go, I can go now... Just go there. Do what I need to do and

come home. And your last thought for us as to your prevailing

attitude to life? Regarding the heart problem, it is fair to say

that you must get your heart checked. You have to. If you have a

heart checked, you can find out if there's something wrong and deal

with it. For other guys, who want to be footballers, just enjoy life,

don't get too serious. Just go out there and play the game with good

spirit and enjoy the game and if you are good enough, you will play.

I commented that you were coming to this programme and there was a

reaction like I have never seen before. I had never heard from

against before he was as popular as you. For someone like you to fly to

Northern Ireland with your story, thank you for coming, it is

appreciated and this crowd will give you a big round of applause.

Thank you. APPLAUSE. We have five minutes left. Be ready get any

opportunity to go into the crowd. If you have any questions,

throughout the series, we are back in April. Any questions at all? Put

your hand up. Yes? # Your love... Is lifting the higher than I have

ever been lifted before! Thank you! Yes? SINGING: I will be the side to

side forever more. -- be decided you forever more. It is Valentine's

Day, let's have some fun. Happy Valentine's Day, everybody! # Your

love... Is lifting the higher than I have ever been lifted before.

You're not... I will be at your side forever more. Your love keeps