Episode 9 The Nolan Show

Should paying for sex be a crime? If the DUP get their way then

Northern Ireland will be the only place in the UK where you get a

criminal record for paying for a prostitute. Should parents smack

their kids? We will debate it. And a remarkable tale of triumph over

adversity. Mark Pollock will be here to share his inspirational

story. This week ten years ago I was about to make my first journey

with my guide dog. I had not been out of the house for nine months.

Little did I know that I would end This audience tonight have been

slagging me off about my brown shoes, they have been slagging me

off about my jacket not closing probably. We are in trouble tonight.

How are you at home? Welcome along. We will give you the numbers to

email, text and tweaked. Let's have Now, first up, is there anything

wrong with a consenting adult paying another consenting adult for

sex? If the DUP get their way it will be illegal here. Let's discuss

this. Lord Maurice Morrow is here along with the Independent escort

Laura Lee. You want to help stamp out human trafficking but what has

that got to do with prostitution? You are right that my bill is to do

with human trafficking. What we do know it is the vast majority of

people who are trafficked are trafficked for sex exploitation.

Let me say this at the start. This is not about what the DUP once. It

is about what is good for Northern Ireland. We do know it that the

vast majority... The DUP do not decide what is good for Northern

Ireland. What we do know is the vast majority of women who are

trafficked are trafficked into the sex trade. What we want to put in

place are measures that will tackle human trafficking and we believe

the best way to do this is to ensure that those who purchase a

person, a woman, they should be the ones who should go to court. And

that is what my Bill is designed to do. But the vast majority of

prostitutes are not traffic, are they? I happen to take the view

that the vast majority of them are trafficked. Wedd you get the

statistics from? There is irrefutable evidence. Where is it?

We do know that in 2007, Surrey 2008 / 9, the number of traffic to

victims was 11. We know that in 2011 / 12, the number of trafficked

victims was 27. That is a big increase. Let me say this before

you start, that is the tip of the iceberg. We accept that those

figures are not the real figures but it is an indication of what is

happening. We do know from those figures that the vast majority of

those have been trafficked for sexual exploitation. But we do know.

Those figures are available and the evidence of there. But as a point

of principle, you are against consenting adults paying for sex?

Let me relate something to you. I got a phone call from a 23-year-old

lady, who asked to meet me one day at Stormont. I went along and I met

her. And I heard her story. 23 years of age, a lovely young woman,

and she was trafficked from Europe into the Irish Republic and ended

up here in Northern Ireland. She was raped 20 times. How would you

feel if that had been your sister? How would you feel if that had been

a relative of yours? That young woman was left with no voice, no

comfort, no support, know where to turn. That is the type of person I

am trying to speak for in my bill. That is what it is about. Obviously,

that is disgusting and everyone will find it disgusting. You will

concede that there are some prostitutes who have been born in

this country and to why a prostitute because they want to be

and there are two consenting adults, one paying money and another

offering a service. There have never been trafficked in their life.

You also criminalising those people. I do accept that not everybody in

prostitution has been coerced or trafficked. Yd blanket ban? What we

do know it in Sweden, which my Bill is modelled on, this Bill was

introduced in Sweden and it reduced trafficking by 50 %. I believe this

is the effective way of dealing with it. I expect we will hear from

the affluent side of prostitution but you will not here tonight from

those who have no voice, have no one to speak out for them, have had

their passports confiscated, have had their rights taken away, have

been plunged into a life of debt and crime. We will not hear from

them and I will endeavour to be their voice in this legislation.

Laura, you are a prostitute. I am. A real life one. What would you say

to Lord Morrow? I would say that Lord Morrow is looking at it

completely the wrong way. He says he is giving a voice to if I can

say the silent majority. I am the voice of the majority and I have

met a lot of the sex workers who have worked in been -- in Northern

Ireland. To refer to them as a worst is not true. Yes, abuse has

happened but abuse happens in every industry. No right-thinking person

in this room would support a woman being trafficked and raped. What I

would call on Lord Morrow to do is to introduce a charge of aggravated

trafficking in Northern Ireland so we can hit the traffickers hard but

leave us contenting adults alone to do our jobs in peace -- as

consenting adults. Will you let Laura choose to sell her body for

sex and will you let a man choose to pay for her without being

criminalised? Stephen, if you take a look at the figures and see how

many have been prosecuted here in Northern Ireland, you will find for

human trafficking it is two. What does that tell you? The wood to

deal with the question? Let me say this. Any senior police officer

will tell you, if you have got a crime happening in your midst, and

you were down to just two Prosecutions, de facto it is legal.

We need to wake up and see what exactly is going on in our very

mixed. Let me try the question again.

Would you let a consenting prostitute who has not been

trafficked, you still want to criminalise the man who pays for

that sex. Let me say... Is this by your religious beliefs? This is

about victims of trafficking. This is about people whose lives are

being destroyed and there is no one to speak out for them. That is

exactly what I am trying to give. If it is about those victims, let's

distinguish between those victims and the people who are consenting

adults. Can you answer the question yes or no, are you saying you want

to criminalise men who pay a consenting woman like Laura who has

never been trafficked for sex? saying we are going to truckle --

tackle human trafficking. If we are going to tackle this issue in our

midst the best way forward is to criminalise the purchase of a body.

Just to come in there, very important point to mention, sex

workers at the moment we enjoy a good working relationship with the

police. We speak to them regularly about concerns that we have.

LAUGHTER. Moving swiftly on. I am very keen to maintain that open

relationship with the police. If Lord Moray's Bill comes into effect,

we will be driven further away from the authorities who can help those

of women. Are Lord Morrow, why should you be the one to determine

what a woman does with her body? Surely it should be her choice?

am not the one who will determine it. There are 108 Assembly Members.

You are proposing it. They will be the ones who will determine it.

question is obvious. You want to talk all the time at. This will not

be the decision of Maurice Morrow to decide. This will be the

collective decision of the Northern Ireland Assembly who have so many,

including this man here who goes on daily and says what are they doing

on the hill? What we are doing is introducing legislation. Can I tell

you what I say, you say when you have got a young man like that who

is engaging with politicians and wants to know what you as an

individual stand for, don't spread it among 108 people. Tavern what

you think. -- tell him what you think. He has asked a question. I

cannot do on my own but what I am trying to do is to put in place

legislation... Or a day you repeat the question. Here is his question

again. Go ahead. If that woman wants to be a prostitute, why can't

she be a prostitute, why do you have to try and stop her? It should

be her decision not anyone else's decision. The must have listened to

what I said at the start. What we have said is the majority of women

who are in prostitution have been trafficked. Or what majority is

that? Are I understand your agenda and you are here to give the ritzy

glitzy side of this industry. What you're not prepared to do is talk

about the victims. This is alien to you. Are you aware that the vast

majority of women who were trafficked are trafficked in for

sexual exploitation? You must be aware of that. But you have decided

to turn a blind driver stuck that When this young lady came to me, I

could have easily turned a blind eye. I have a duty of

responsibility. As do I. You are placing sex workers in danger. 1000

sex workers will have their lives in danger if your bill goes through.

That is rubbish. I am protecting women. I am the voice for those --

I am the voice for those who have no voice. You have carried out

research of this, what do you think? I think that our research

found out the opposite picture than that the one that Lord Morrow seems

to have on the basis of no evidence. The evidence is a minority of women

are traffic to and there majority decide to do so. It is true that

that majority of people traffic are traffic in the sex industry, but

the most important data is the minority of women are forced.

Criminalisation of clients would push the sex industry underground

and make it more difficult for sex workers to reach out to vital and

violence and health services. It would be to the detriment of sex

workers. It pays probably in terms of propaganda to say it would help

sex workers, but it wouldn't. you very much. If you want to pick

up the phone, the numbers are on the screen. Mary is on the line.

You were a prostitute, is that right? That is right. You would

like to speak to Laura? First of all, I would like to say the same a

punter that would be with Laura tomorrow night would be with a

trafficked woman. The punters do not ask the girls if they are OK or

if they are traffic. No. 2, I don't know where Laura is working, it is

certainly not in our island. There the end of the day, if we are raped,

which I was, I would not go to the police because I would be arrested.

Saying that, it is OK for the man. We are not against prostitutes, we

are fighting for equal rights. The man should be prosecuted. It is not

right to be able to sell human flesh. Laura, speak to Mary.

think you are mistaken. Punters are more than happy to go forward on an

anonymous basis to report anything they find untoward. These are human

beings, not animals all pistes. Secondly... How do they care if all

they want is sex? They do care. They have money in their pocket and

use your body and walk away. They don't use my body, they use my

skills. I am a 5 ft 9 dominatrix. Secondly, to address your other

question there, where I work in the north of Ireland, I do indeed. I

have worked in Belfast for the last three days. I am hearing on the

grapevine that there will be a police environment on mass in

August? Yes, I will be back in August. Do you know what, for the

people in this audience who are laughing, and there are few of you,

what if it was your sister? Seriously. What if it was your

sisters selling her body for sex? Or indeed brother and there was

some stranger who happen to have enough money to take her, by her

and then walk away from her? Would you really be laughing? Quite a few

of you laughed then. Are any of you prepared to speak up now? I don't

know if you laugh, hello. Let's get a microphone to you. I am a

freelance journalist. I have spoken to several other women in the

business. I have friends who are in the business, one is a guy whose

customers are women and one is a woman whose customers are men and

women. On both sides of the Atlantic, customers tell me it is

free choice. The ones I have interviewed here emphasise that, if

you criminalise the purchasing of sex, they will push the victims

that are trafficked further away because both the customers and

consenting prostitutes will be scared to tell the police if they

feel like they will be criminalised and sent to jail. OK. There is

someone appear. Hello, with a blonde hair. I honestly don't think

Lord Murrow, I think you are wrong. It will push it underground and

women's lives will be more at risk. I have had friends in the past he

were in the business. I don't judge anybody in any way, but with the

police and working with them, they felt safer. Do you not get a sense

that she was glamorising it? That is her choice and her job. As a

society we put Maugham's around everything. To be fair to Lord

Morrow, what he is doing here is saying he wants to protect women

who might be trafficked and also, you are saying, it is not right for

a man, because he has money, to use a woman for sex. Is that fair?

me try and answer. She says that this will drive it underground.

That has not been experienced in Sweden. That has not happened in

Sweden. Let me say something else... This is not Sweden. Police have

different problems here. Hold on. My Bill is modelled on the Swedish

model. It is not exactly the idea. Let me say this, when this

legislation was introduced in Sweden, the then head of the police

in Stockholm was opposed to the introduction of the legislation

however, years later when it came to his retirement, what did he say?

He said... Let me finish. He said, when this was introduced, I was

opposed to this. I now acknowledge that this is good legislation,

effective legislation and he said he should not have opposed it.

want to head to hour studio now. Nice to talk to you. You are

disabled and sitting in a wheelchair tonight. You lost your

virginity to a prostitute when you were 25. Why did you decide to do

that? Because I wanted that sexual experience for myself. I was

surrounded by all of my friends having this experience. Just

because I was in a wheelchair, that was a huge barrier between me and

one to him that experience. It is not just that experience, these

women of providing a service of intimacy and human contact. As far

as Lord Moreau is concerned, yes I agree with human trafficking, but

get back in your box. Start to see the human side because, you know, I

think you are coming from facts and figures but you are stuttering all

over the place. As soon as you have real facts and figures coming from

the human heart, then you come back to us and say what you will do.

Until then, just go back in your box. Lord Morro? Let me say this. I

want to say this to Astor. My bill does not discriminate. It would

criminalise him. Hold on a moment. Sometimes they are some things that

are just not acceptable of doing. No, no, No. Let me finish. Let me

say this. I happen to believe that everybody is equal in the law and

equally subject to the law. I just happen to believe that. You think

this is a sin, that's what this is about. It seems to be that whenever

anyone in this country raises an issue of what would be deemed a

moral issue, they are penalised, penalised -- demonised and Paul to

pieces. Quite frankly, I don't mind being pulled to pieces if it is

something I strip feel strongly about. I will not be deterred for

speaking out for victims. I believe that this piece of legislation can

be very effective and can bring good and protect the victims of

human trafficking. That is what it is all about. Fair enough. Let me

say this. You keep turning it around. I am not. Your bill does

not just cover people who have suffered from human trafficking. It

also covers people like Astor who is -- he was a 25 year-old disabled

man when he decided he wanted that the human experience of having sex.

He decided he wanted to buy it as a consenting adult from a consenting

prostitute. You would criminalise him, give him a criminal record,

would in due? It is asked her telling me tonight that these women

he has used, none of them were coerced, none of them were

trafficked? Would you criminalise him? I am asking him the question.

Is he telling me tonight that all those women that he has used, none

of them have been traffic? Absolutely not. I tell you why, I

am friends with them all mouth and I know exactly what they are doing

and I have met all their families. When I spoke about the lady that I

met who was trafficked from Europe into the Irish Republic... Astor,

can I ask you a question? Because you are a disabled man, doesn't

mean that you have to buy sex, does it? Some people would argue that

you should have waited for someone to fall in love with you and to

respect you and your body for who you are. Absolutely. And actually

there would be 25 year-old people who are not disabled he waited

until someone loved them. Maybe what you did was cheap? Well, you

know, cheap, whatever it was, I wanted human contact. When you go

outside of the door and greet someone, you can go up to them and

hug them automatically. I can't. I need to ask someone to do that. In

life it is a lot harder for me to do these things having a disability.

I would like to ask Lord Moreau one more question, where do you get

human contact from? I am not going down that route. You wouldn't do,

would you? Know, I wouldn't. He should be afforded the same amount

of respect as everyone else. Is it the religious thing? That is what

we have to think about. I am in a very happily married relationship.

Paul, from the Evangelical Alliance. This is an important topic. I

broadly agree with Lord Morro's built with the focus on

prostitution for trafficked men and women. We are concerned that it

flattens prostitution. If a man uses the services of a traffic

woman who has not chosen to be there and has been subject to force,

we would call that rape. The maximum penalty at the minute is

just a fine and we don't think that is acceptable. What if he faced

going on the sex offenders' register? With your hand up, go

ahead. I can't hear you, wait until we get your microphone. You were

saying there were 1000 sex workers, are they paying tax? Do they

contribute to the moral aspect? think we do an important social job.

I myself do a lot of work with disabled clients and it is very

rewarding. And enriching. I to pay taxes and I pay National Insurance

as well. I struggle with the notion that it is morally superior for me

to sit at home and claim benefits than to go out and earn a living

I have been in the industry for 20 years and I have met a lot of

workers. If you are talking a human trafficking, why do you target the

human traffickers? If they were not there to start off with, wide you

not target them instead of the men? We feel this is the most effective

way to tackle human trafficking and to bring relief and support to

those who have been coerced into this industry. We are out of time.

We have lots of vehicles to continue the discussion on the

known and radio show tomorrow at 9 o'clock and on Twitter. Thank you

to Lawro and Lord Morrow. -- Laura. This is what is still to come on

tonight's programme. Is smacking your own kid child abuse or

sensible parenting? My next guest lost his eyesight at

22. He then ran six marathons across the Gobi Devon -- Gobi

desert totally blind. In July 2010 p fell from a second storey window

which left him totally paralysed from the waist down. This is one

hell of a story. Please welcome Mark Pollock.

Hello, mark. Good to see you. I have been wanting you on this show

for quite a long time and it is my pleasure to speak to. You have an

incredible story and an inspiring story. You lost your sight

completely in 1998. What happened? I was born very short-sighted which

gives you week retinas. I had to avoid getting a knock on the head

growing up. When I was 22 I was at university in Dublin. I was rowing

internationally and I had a job offer to start in London. In the

space of two weeks with a detached retina I went blind. Very quick but

I had lots of experience of being in hospital. What is it like to go

blind? Well, you lose your eyesight but you also lose your identity

when you require a disability. Already sided. I was in

universities and rowing and had a job offer. As soon as I went blind

eye had none of that. I didn't think blind people did anything and

suddenly I was one of them. So you got very down? Denial first of all.

Anger, miracle Sea King, self-pity, all of these things in sequence.

take my sight for granted. You wake up in the morning and you see some

light. You walk outside. I love the sky. I thinks guys are incredible.

I am trying to to imagine now I've it was taken away from me

immediately, bang. It is not easy. There is no doubt about it. But it

is absolute and final so it is one of those situations where there is

little point sitting around and talking about it. I had to deal

with it. And I had to try and find a new life with blindness. This is

where your story is absolutely incredible. He fought back. What

did you do in the Gobi desert? was six marathons in a week in the

Gobi desert carrying a pack. How? met a guy who had done one of these

races and just like you I said, how do you do that, it sounds

impossible. He said I have just done one so it is possible. The

question is, is it possible for you? I asked myself that question.

I was into sport and challenges. I suppose in the beginning it was a

way of rebuilding or creating a new identity and I did it through sport.

Literally how did you hold on to him through the desert? Yes, my

guided techniques have been developing over the years. I

literally held on to my team mate's elbow. I was hanging on to his

backpack and we had to come up with a new system. I have stupid

questions and don't answer them if you don't want it. I'm thinking, if

someone really gets on your nerves, what do you do if you are hanging

on, if you want to go to the toilet and you want some time on your own

in the Gobi desert, what do you do? You get a good team mate for a

start. You realise who you are going to rely on. I have had

brilliant team mates. I have had guys who have had to do exactly

what I have done. We have been pushing ourselves to the limits. I

have had fantastic team mates. It is so cliche but I literally could

not do without them. By human bond between you and the only human

beings. It is why I have been involved in sport. When you go to

the limit with someone, when you push yourself to failure, to the

brink of failure and you come through it and you get to the end,

in some ways, it is the hardship of adventure racing that provides the

great feelings of success and that bond. The Gobi desert was not

enough. In 2004 you took part in the North Pole marathon and you

met? Sir Ranulph Fiennes. A and they needed a marathon in the Dead

Sea and then you went to the South Pole. You mad man. I was sharing a

tent with a Sir Ranulph Fiennes, the greatest living explorer

according to the Guinness Book of Records and I felt like a tourist

and I felt I should do a proper expedition. South Pole was the 10th

anniversary of me going blind. We were racing Ben Fogle and James

Cracknell, the Norwegian special forces, the Royal Marines, it was

my way of putting the blind us behind me. Did it ever get really

hairy out there? Simon in my team nearly lost his fingers. There were

crevasses. It was -50 which was described to me by an ex-Royal

Marine as life-threatening the cold. If you stopped for a moment you

could feel the blood disappearing from your arms and legs. What is it

like when you are in the South Pole? It is not a and short lived

champagne popping moment. Beware felt was a sense of contentment, a

long-lasting sense of contentment. It was a year, 43 days, we had

really pushed it and we had got there. There was a long lasting

sense of contentment. It was still lasting a year, 18 months after the

South Pole. You have had the tragedy of losing your site, you

have had the highs of being an incredible person and doing

something that the majority of people in this audience could not

do and I could not do, I do not think anybody could find the

strength I needed. To I think they could. Well, we will agree to

disagree. Then in 2010, another tragedy of the scale. What

happened? I was not in any harsh environment. I was at a rowing

regatta that I used to race at. I fell from a second storey window.

The next thing I knew was I was in intensive care with a fractured

skull, boots and my brain, fractured ribs and I could not feel

or move anything from my stomach downwards. How did you fall? I hit

my head off the ground pretty hard and I don't remember. We can see

the scar now on screen. You do not know how it happened but you ended

up in intensive care and when you eventually became conscious you

would be told you had damaged your spinal cord? I think I instantly

knew it. Instantly when I eventually woke up. How did you

know it? Can't feel to move your legs and you just know, you just

know deep down and that is paralysis. I was pumped full of

morphine, I was hallucinating, I did not know where I was but I knew

from the very earliest moments that I was paralysed. The blindness

seems to have fallen some way into the background. The Palace this was

actually one of my worst fears. I said I could handle the blindness

but if I was paralysed that I could handle it. Could you handle it,

initially? No. Or that spirit is drained out of you and you have got

to be thinking, why me? Funny, I did not think, whiny? Maybe I did

at some point. - a whiny? Were you angry? It did not seem to happen

like the blind us. -- of the blindness. I was just really sad.

For a really long time. I was in hospital for 18 months. The first

six months of it I was in bed, infections, three stone of body

weight lost, I just could not see a way forward. How you had been

fighting your blindness through all of this adventure, somehow,

whatever it is, God, the world, but luck, it had then taken away from

you what you had been fighting back with, the power of movement?

way I'd dealt with my blindness was I went and raced head to head

against guys who were proper adventurers and I did it despite

the blindness. I thought all of that was gone. The idea of a blind,

paralysed adventurer racing, at best I felt I might be able to be

pushed down the road. So, I have to say her kept asking people in

intensive care, did I really go to the South Pole? Going to the south

polar valued so much I probably have thought it was good not to go

again. And in the capacity of you as human being, somewhere you find

another little bet of strength, another little bit of energy? And

what you did was you decided to fight again and you decided to

fight to walk. I just want to show us all at home what Mark did. He

used robotic legs. Let's just have a look at this and then Mark, you

can talk us through. We are watching you. Chase it. I am going

too far forwards on my right crutch. There is a reason why this is hard.

That is in America, whereas it? is in Californian via San Francisco.

I had my accident in 2010. Those robotic legs were an invention.

They were in Time magazine as one of the top inventions of that year.

The following year there were clinical trials. At the start of

last year I actually got an e-mail from a guy in Bangor who worked out

there. He invited me out to go and have a go on them. What was it like

walking on them? He was awful! I cannot feel anything from my

stomach down so it was like floating in mid-air and I could not

see the horizon but I was walking. I have been working on them for 12

months now and just on Monday I took 2196 steps in an hour so I am

practically running in the gym now. That is in a year.

You are running in the gym? You were prepared to show me up

tonight! It is improving. What I am doing now, my new adventure is to

try and walk again, robotics, training, maybe there will be a

medical intervention. I do not know if this will work for me, it may or

may not. But I want to add to the story and the research of spinal

cord injury. I want to see someone else in future will not have to sit

in these chairs or lie in bed. still have hope? You have to have

hope. It is really important to accept way you are today. I have to

accept I cannot see, I cannot walk. Are you happy? I am happy 99 % of

the time. You have got to have hope. You have got to accept where you

are and you have to be happy sitting somewhere between

acceptance and hope. I have an amazing fiancee, amazing family,

amazing friends. You went to an amazing school as well. This same

Listen, it I wish I had the strength. I think, in the context

of what we have been talking about in Northern Ireland over recent

weeks and months, what we all want and you know that word want, to

find someone like you who has the spirit and the strength to fight

against adversity, all I can say is I admire you. You have a huge story

to tell and thank you so much for coming into the studio. Thank you.

Thank you very much. I would love you to tweet me

tonight. When I go home I look up all of your tweets and I want to

know what you think about Mark and his story. He will see the address

on your screen. Let's just remind Now, the Tory justice minister got

into a row at the weekend. When he said that he smacked his kids and

stood by doing so. This is his -- Chris Grayling. He said it sends a

message. Currently parents are not banned from smacking their children.

Let's discuss this tonight with Patricia Lesley and Mary Russell

from the family Education Trust. Mary, what do you think? I think it

is a thing that many parents have used and will continue to use as a

means of discipline. Smacking is not an assault, it is not an attack,

it is not violence against the child, it is a means that parents

have used and will continue to use as a means of discipline. Patricia?

I am not here to demonise parents, what I am saying is there are

alternative ways of disciplining a child instead of hitting them. That

is what I would like to see in the legislation changed. D believe in

choice? This is not about denying parental choice, it is about

supporting parents in other ways of discipline. Is smacking wrong?

believe it is because sometimes it sends the wrong message.

decriminalise it? We want to see a change in legislation. I want to

support parents and give them alternative ways of disciplining

children. You use the word choice, allow parents to make choices, but

you would criminalise smacking so that parents have no choice? That

is the issue, it is about the protection of children. Would you

criminalise it? Yes, if the laws changed. So there is no choice for

the parent. There is a choice on how to discipline. They don't have

to smack to do that. The people who campaign against smacking are no

wiser than the parent, they are not gifted with any prior wisdom or

more experienced. That is the first thing. They are not in a position

to lecture. The second thing I would like to say is that you and

others to campaign, are saying they are doing so to protect children.

But she would happily preside over a situation where a child's parents

can be dragged through the courts, there family will become known to

social services, the child itself will see their parents authority

diminished in their eyes. How hard is it OK to hit? In my opinion, I

would be inclined to make an impression on a child and I don't

mean physical. How hard? So it is felt. To the extent of some pain?

Some pain, yes. How much pain? parent, I have smacked my children

and I don't see anything wrong. Would it be all right for me to

slap you tonight to a certain extent of pain? No. Would it be all

right for me to wipe your nose? No, because I have no

responsibility over you. I had to think about that for a few seconds.

They are things parents do for their children that they would not

do for an adult. Let's go to the second row here. What I want to say

to the commissioner is, I understand the angle you are coming

at and I respect it. Protecting children is paramount, however the

only way you are going to ensure or you think you can support parents

is when a mother has given birth to a child, maybe had a traumatic

experience, arrives home with her baby and have Superman is standing

at the door promising to stay with her until she is 18. You can't

condemn every parent. It is wrong to condemn every parent he taps

their child on the restore the back of the legs when they can't

verbalise their reason why they don't want that child to go there.

Mary would inflict a certain level of pain, would you? That is not

what she said. She did. Pain is not what you want to inflict. All you

want to do, there is a certain point when a child is young and

they do not have the capacity to understand danger and when you are

a parent and you see that happen, you are fearful. To be fair, I

understand your point, but I protect my child and I always will.

What I find offensive when I know there are children being beaten and

having been strapped and all sorts of terrible abuse and also the

child you see in the street his parents verbally abuses that child

and humiliate that child, that parent is not parenting. The parent

he taps their child to stop them running and the road, that is

parenting. The issue is, when does the tap become a smack become the

punch. If you are a loving parent, you will know when it will be.

cannot condemn rational parenting from people who do not know how to

be rational. The guy with the beard. Is hitting your child not

reinforcing the point that violence works?

You are using the term hit a child. Hitting, striking, we are not

talking about an assault, we are talking about a smack or a tap.

tap? A tap yes. They smack or a tap. Stephen, you may shake your head...

I am not shaking anything. You can use what they have a word you want.

It is physical contact to a point where a child feels a degree of

pain. It is not striking. It is not tickling, is it? No. I have to say

another thing, Patricia has mentioned alternative methods. Now,

the naughty step, withdrawing privileges, all of that, that can

have a detrimental effect on the child. A smack is over and done

with. I will come on to that. Goal here, purple cardigan. Mary, do you

think installing this fear into a young child, how do you justify

that as good parental practice? do you justify a... Do you want to

repeat the question? Installing that kind of fear... Installing

fear? Fear of what? Fear of being hit, fear of doing something small

in their life that will get them in trouble. If you are parents, there

will be certain situations where you have to instil fear. He is

lilies on the telephone. Dull ahead. I feel that, as a parent, I have

the right to discipline my child. To say that parents would be facing

social services, that is the big fear for a parent to have the worry

that they can't discipline their children without social services

turning up. I don't think that is for anyone to make that decision.

How old are your kids? Widdell to his seven and my son is too.

hard is it -- how hard with you hit your seven-year-old. I would smack

them on the hand. They are still learning. With a smack to the hand,

he understands that what he is doing isn't right. It happened to

me. Would you criminalise that? issue is, does he understand? You

are saying the reason... We can't hear you. Hold on. He won't go back

and touch the radiator. There is a guy here in the blue shirt. Article

19 of the UN conventions states that children have the right to be

free from physical harm. We were talking about women having rights,

we have to understand that children have rights. Parents have right,

yes, but it is illegal for an adult to hit an adult, so why are people

trying to legalise adults hitting children? Where his Jeffrey. What

do you think? This is total nonsense. Thanks very much! We are

not talking about violence or people being punched. That is

already illegal under the 2004 Children's Act. We are talking

about parents using common sense. Violence is not to me a cake -- in

the equation. It is about parents making it known to do or not to do

things. Chris Grayling said it was about providing a message. Not

something we may leave. Is there not a better alternative? Often

there is not a better alternative. Let me give you an example, at

Stephen. We once rented a house in Spain and our child promptly fell

into the Paul. Had we told him in advance, are we it not sensible for

same, stay away from the swimming pool otherwise you will know about

it. The consequence was he almost drowned. You give messages clearly

and when they put themselves in danger, sometimes the ultimate

sanction is to use a clip or a smack. You talk about the extent.

The 2004 Act says no parent should put more than a red impression on

the skin of a child. You don't think like that. You don't realise

how exasperating children can be and often language does not work

when you are dealing with a seven or eight year-old child who does

not understand the new ones of language. That happens later and

that is when you use a language. Not when you are dealing with

irrational and stupid children when they are very young. There is a guy

up the back. White T-shirt. judges what a smack is and then

when it becomes child abuse? What nonsense! What do you mean

nonsense? That question is not a nonsense question. It is very valid.

Isn't it? You need to differentiate between the two totally different

things. Become a parent and experience it yourself. I am not

saying there are bad parents. are bad parents! Pitch you can't

condemn everybody. Give Patricia a tad -- a chance. I understand what

it is like, I am a parent, I have five children. They all have

different personalities, but I did not have to smack them to teach

them. This lady at the back. smacking your children, you are

reinforcing that violence is acceptable. Thank you very much. In

the green shirt at the back. disciplined me as a child and I

believe it has contributed to me becoming a respectable citizen and

I am thankful for getting smacked. What my mother did to me, I will

never forget. Didn't smack me enough, he said that? Everybody

said that. What happened to me, I was up in the toilet in my house

and I remember my mother shouting up the stairs, that is it, I am

ringing the home, I am putting you in the home. I came running down

the stairs. Who else have we got? Where are you. Go ahead. I am a

mother myself and I am anti- smacking. I agree with Patricia. I

come back to your caller who said just this match or a tap, these are

tiny little hands that are exploring and making things. To

smack them, it is just wrong. Violence breeds violence. That is

your right to make that decision. You are entitled to decide not to

smack. The debate is whether you can be trusted with control or

whether any of us can be trusted with the care and control of our

children. Some who say parents do not have the intellect to make a

distinction between a smack as disciplined or employing other

methods. The guy appear. We have one minute left. It does discipline.

He differentiates, the parent does. If a parent hits their kid with a

fist, they are stupid and a bad parent. If the kid do something bad

and you tap them on the hand, a soft slap, it is harmless enough.

We are out of time. Give Patricia and Mary around of applause. Here

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