Episode 8 The Nolan Show

Policing the flag protests - and a new development tonight with a

shift in loyalist tactics. The man told to leave one of

Northern Ireland's best known establishments because of his

tattoo fights back. What did I say on the radio? And I

meet the four-year-old whose battle with cancer has captured the hearts

of the Northern Ireland public. Wee Are you ready for a big show

tonight? We have got one for you! Police stay with us. We want you to

Tonight, we are looking at the policing of the flag protests, both

in terms of what has happened and how the PSNI will deal with them in

the future. And then of course, there is the marching season coming

soon. We'll be discussing this with some of our senior politicians in a

moment. But first, there's been a development tonight. The Ulster

Peoples Forum has been at the heart of this controversy, and it has

announced a change in tactics, a shift away from blocking roads to

what it calls white line protests. I've been speaking to Jamie Bryson

from the Ulster Peoples Forum and asked him what this new phase is

all about. What we're doing is, there have been called from the

people on the ground for leadership, so what the Ulster Peoples Forum is

trying to do is provide that leadership. We claim to speak for

the protesters who we have a consensus, that is the way to move

forward. We does it mean, white line protests? It is protesting

along the white line in the middle of the road, doing whatever you can

get your message across. Suggesting? Are you going to be

telling me next week, we suggested it, we don't speak for all the

people, roads are still being blocked. There are certainly not,

but I'm not in a position to tell anybody anything. The protests

belong to the people. They feel the white line protest is the way to

move forward. However some protesters do not feel that is the

way to move forward, as long as they protest peacefully we will

support them. That his leadership, isn't it? So please protest in the

middle of the road but if you are going to do anything else, we will

not condemn you? Be a man, for goodness sake and have a position

and tell people you will condemn them if you don't stick to that.

will not be condemning anybody come I'm not a dictator. De Ulster

Peoples Forum is trying to stroll in leadership, if people follow us

that is well and good, I am in no position to dictate to people as to

how they can protest. Why are you not saying it is wrong to protest

in any way except these white wine protests? The protests have been

ongoing for some time, we have supported peaceful protests, so why

would we say it is wrong to protest peacefully? May be people do not

want to tolerate the road to being blocked any more, they are not good

to tolerate their lives being disrupted because of a handful of

people. We have been clear that we protest peaceful protest as long as

there are no acts of violence, and nobody is threatened. What is this

in a statement that the new phase will include localised protest

outside council offices to coincide with monthly meetings in each

respective area. You are going to bring these protests to

democratically elected people? we have said on the show many times,

we have a right to hold democratically-elected politicians

to account. We feel the politicians have failed us, this was a

democratic decision, so what we are doing is bringing how protest to

the council to. To council offices? Ear, the monthly meetings. To

democratically elected officers? All have a right to hold them to

account and that is what we will do. You tried to be won't last time.

There are more hairs on my big toe then you got bodes. Not only are

you a nonentity, Hugh Laurie confirmed a nonentity. Who are due

to try holding democratically- elected person to account? Frankly,

the essence of any democracy is the ordinary person on the street can

hold democratically-elected representatives to account. But

this is not about me and what I have done personally, I'm only here

to articulate the views of the Ulster Peoples Forum. You are

poster boy for the Ulster Peoples Forum. A poster boy! Interesting.

After pondering the issue, you are saying that you have decided you

have only one demand. So you are issuing demands. On my personal

Facebook page. For personal -- petition to get thousands of boats

and Abby Mann Date -- a mandate from the people, what are you

asking. That Peter Robinson resigned his seat, forcing an

election. Who do you think you are? I will tell you who I think I am. I

am a citizen of this country who has a right to express my own

personal political opinion at any time I choose as long as I'm not

inciting violence. I was expressing my own personal opinion, which

doesn't always reflect the views of the Ulster Peoples Forum. Is that

the position of the Ulster Peoples Forum? That is not. Their position

you can see clearly on the statement. What are you hoping to

achieve by continuing with this new phase. What do you want out of

this? We have seen a positive aspects, we are having meetings,

the start at about Sinn Fein chipping away at our culture and

Our Identity, so what we have attempted to do is provide a

platform so people can express their views through the Ulster

Peoples Forum, so there can be an endgame strategy as to how we can

fight for our culture, identity, our British identity, in a peaceful

way. Because it hasn't always been peaceful, which you are pleased

concede you have damaged your own image, the Ulster Peoples Forum,

you would concede that there are good, decent people from the

loyalist community that are really, really angry that they see violence

on the streets, cars being blacked out, that their police force is

being attacked, would you can see their role could loyalist people

who would think like that? What we are said from the start is that of

violent doesn't send out a message, we have encouraged peaceful protest.

We have never encouraged anybody to engage in violence. I'm not going

to speak out on those people. would condemn anybody who has

attacked the police? I do. I have said that violence does not serve

any purpose in this case, does not get our message across and does not

help. That is why I have said peaceful protest is the way to go

and encouraged young people to get him bought in politics and that is

the way we can move things forward. What you have in return for this,

has there been a deal done? I had to be clear, they run a tent across

the board to discredit the loyalist people. -- there are attempts. To

discredit people like ourselves who were our spokesperson for the

Ulster Peoples Forum, I will say that I will never be bought off by

anybody and I will not betray my people. No deal done? Are there has

been no deal done, I would not do a deal behind the backs of the

ordinary Protestant people. Something like this happens, you

haven't been talking to anybody, have been negotiating with anybody,

no talks with the police? What you have tried to do it is great his

situation where they raised one, but at the meeting on Saturday it

was agreed we would seek a meeting with the PSNI to discuss PSNI

brutality, we had that meeting yesterday and we have raised those

concerned. They gave an undertaking that they would meet again with the

Ulster Peoples Forum and we can present him with a dossier of

actions we think are out of place. No doubt these proposals... Or do

they support your white line protests? The a our legal. What we

need to be clear his these decisions were taken on Saturday,

they had a meeting and a Park Avenue hotel, we met the PSNI... We

will not do any deals behind the backs of the people. Attempts to

discredit me and other people, I hope we will walk away from this

and they will fail miserably. Talking to the police yesterday,

did you discuss this with them? What they asked us was what our

views were and what we thought what was in that statement. That is

Jamie Bryson. We will speak to the elected politicians in a second or

two, we're interested in what they and you think tonight. Have the

police messed up here in so far as the protesters, some of these

protesters, they have decided they are going to stop blocking the

roads. The police haven't stopped them, they are deciding to change

their tactics. I said from the outset, this was created by

politics. It has to have a political solution. The problem the

police faced in all of this is that anything that they do in terms of

the calls from various sides, more force, less force than anything

they do runs the risk of increasing the violence. So tonight, this is

probably a positive move if they can make it stick. The problem is

their right to grips out here, a lot of people are out peacefully

protesting -- there Plaid Cymru groups out here. What we are

talking about tonight is the role of the police and our expectation

as a law-abiding society of the role of the police. We asked the

PSNI to come on tonight, the simple answer is No. That expectation that

the police will not haggle with what is legal and illegal, they

will clampdown on illegality. They did not for eight weeks of blocking

$:STARTFEED. Well, this is this illegal? Why don't the police move

them? What do you do about it without making it worse? What do

you do in that? The courts have held that the police have a degree

of discretion in this and they have decided to exercise that discretion.

A lot of people are upset about it. Well, do you know what, for law

abiding people, dot police exercise the same discretion when they are

hiding behind hedges and they do a law abiding citizen when they are

doing 35mph in a 30mph zone and when you drop a cigarette butt on

the ground and a council official fines you and you have a lot of

people asking questions. And the right forum for that is in the

policing board because one of the organisations that has been

invisible throughout this has been the Policing Board who are supposed

to hold the police to account. So we have mechanisms for this, to

deal with this, if the people think the police haven't acted.

Delores Kelly. Have the police acted fairly? I have to acknowledge

that over 142 police officers have been injured throughout the

protests, but what has many commentators and people have seen

is there has been a differential in policing in different areas and

that's that's been a concern in terms of Nationalist confidence in

policing. We saw police around Ardoyne, I mean I am from the

Portadown area and and we have seen policing and happened there and it

tas taken the police a long time to wake up and to decide how to police

the illegal pro protests. Why do you think that that is? The SDLP

met with the Chief Constable. you confidence in what the Chief

Constable said back to you? We are happy that the police are taking

this matter seriously. We are happy that the police are one of the most

most Human Rights compliant forces in Europe.

Did you expect the police to go in and lift people off the middle of

the road? Well, we expected police to police and as you said, law

abiding citizens thought it might blow over in a day or two and let's

see how it goes... Did you want them to lift people off the middle

of the road? Well, we think the road should be clear for people to

go about their lawful business P. Do you defend someone's right to

sit in the middle of the road and to block the road? The majority of

the protests were peaceful anyway. I welcome the announce announcement

that there are going to be white line protests.

Where they lawful? Any onesI saw were peaceful and lawful.

You were involved in some? Yes, I was indeed. Lawful and peaceful and

no difficulty. Your leader, Peter Robinson asked

for people not to go. There was no difficulty you going?

Why is that... Are you Are you disobeying your leader? He called

for people not to go? See if had been illegality and law breaking

and attacking of shops or property like like you Stephen would have

been saying to people like me, "Where were you? Did you desert

your community?" Peaceful and lawful and that was the case in 90%

of the cases. Gregory, it is not the point that I

or the question that I have asked you, your leader asked you not to

go and you went. This is weeks ago, Stephen. This is weeks ago.

Did you get disciplined? But that's sending mixed messages.

We will come to mixed messages now, Delores.

Whenever we talk about the policing problems like this, almost every

single year I notice Republican commemorations say at Easter,

whenever people go with masks and guns, the police don't rush in to

arrest people breaking the law. Do you think they should? I have

said what they should do. If they think it would make matters worse

whether it is demonstrations at at Easter or against loyalists they

should say, "Will it make matters worse?" If if it does, we wait

until an appropriate time and arrest people afterwards whether it

is loyalists or republicans. For the people who were blocking

the road and that's illegal? Yes, in the small number of places where

that happened. Yes, for all those people who were

blocking the road, are you calling on the police to identify those

protest protesters and arrest them? Well, I think they have arrested

almost 200 people. Do you think everybody who was

blocking the road should be arrested? Everybody who breaks the

law, whether it is blocking the road or attacking police officers,

they should face the courts. They should face due process.

Every single one of them? Yes, whether they are wearing a mask in

a graveyard with a gun or blocking a road.

Why do you think the police did nothing for eight weeks in terms of

arrests? Well, Stephen... The roads were blocked for weeks, Gregory?

have heard you say this for weeks on the radio. I don't accept that

they did nothing for weeks... mistake, the roads were blocked for

weeks... You said the police were doing nothing.

Why do you think the police were doing nothing, were they holding

back? The local police commander, he will look at it and he will say,

if we move in there in a heavy handed fashion we might end up with

5,000 people on the streets rather than 50. Now, so what they do, they

don't allow the 50 people to break the law, they go after them at the

appropriate time and they face due process. Two months later? Whatever.

These posters, let's look at these posters that are just out today.

Eight months, eight weeks after that that started and this is for

rioting. Can we see the posters? Can we see the posters? We are

trying to get the posters in a second or two. Stephen Farry, have

the police got this right or wrong? First of all, Stephen, most of the

protests did involve blocking of roads and by definition they were

illegal and even the mere threat of a protest was enough to cause

disruption and stop people going about their lawful business and

interrupted people's livelihoods and destroyed business particularly

in... We know that. This cost... Let's talk about the policing

operation? The police had a difficult balance to strike in this

regard. We have to back the rule of law. If we don't have the rule of

law in a society, we don't have a fair society.

The police failed to uphold the rule of law. What is important the

police hold to account those who were involved in breaking the law

on those protests... The police feel, or are you happy with what

the police did? Well this operation isn't over and now the police have

moved to identify some of the key people involved in protests, it is

important they follow through with the evidence that they have...

you happy with how the police - do you know what, it is kind of every

show I repeat it four times and then I get an answer. Are you happy

with how the police have behaved or do you think they have messed up

and have lessons to learn? We have allowed a situation to develop in

Northern Ireland where the rule of law has been broken with impunity

and that has serious consequences for the integrity of the Parades

Commission and wider society. I think what was important at the

time that we send a message about der terrants and perhaps if we we

to send a stronger message and if politicians had given their full

backing to the police we could have nipped this in the bud quicker.

Well, who didn't? I think we have had mixed messages. Whenever

politicians were outstanding side by side with protesters... Are you

talking about him? Well, Gregory amongst others, sure.

LAUGHTER APPLAUSE

You see, Stephen, some of the issues that underlie the flags

protest are issues that I and others have been raising for years,

not just this past six weeks or six months, but for years. Now, if the

protests have done some good in concentrating minds across the

divide then they have done some good. They have done some good.

That's no excuse... Do you back the protests? That's no excuse for law

breaking. I thought I made that clear.

In November at the the DUP party conference, Peter Robinson said the

Union had never been more secure and Mike Nesbitt said something

similar and then they are saying the British unionist has not been

greater under threat. We didn't say the second half of

what you have said. Look, Stephen, if we are talking about... We are

talking about policing tonight, aren't we? Well, let's look at

double standards here. If you get a political party, Stephen like yours

that is supposed to be built on consensus and you come to Belfast

City Hall and you say the unionists want one something and the

Nationalists want something else and we are going to back the

Nationalists. We are talking about policing tonne.

Yes, sir. As a Democrat I have no problem with anybody who wants to

protest, but it is the cost implications that, nobody mentioned

the cost implications. Do you think the police have done,

have used the right tactics? The police's hands have been tied

tied but the cost implications are under the millions already and

there is money and within our devolved Government there is money

for policing and the money has been filtered away and it could be for

hospitals or schools so it is the money issue.

What we have got coming up and it is only a matter of weeks away and

it is the marching season. Where is Chris Donnelly. Has a press den

been set by the -- press den been set in Northern Ireland as as to

how they much police the marching season? Stephen, I think, really

any evaluation of the police's performance throughout the flags

debacle so far, they failed on two fronts. The first, the failure to

uphold the law in defence of ordinary citizens who were using

the Christmas period to go to go shopping. The police failed that.

But secondly, and this is the problem which is coming up with the

marching season. They failed to cease the opportunity that

presented itself to try to further depoliticise policing in the north

of Ireland. For instance, July 2011 in Ardoyne, the police arrested and

charged and fined 26 nationalist for obstructing a road. If you

extrapolate those figures on to what you have been talking about

the 100 odd protest that have taken place in the last eight weeks, the

prescreption from prepreception from nationalism there is double

standards. We can see how the police actually

operated in Ardoyne. This was 2010. What they did to take some of the

protesters off the road. Let's just, So what are you thinking, Chris, as

you are watching these pictures? Well, what I'm thinking on that

occasion, the people are trying to block the road because there was a

controversial loyalist parade going through a sectarian interface. The

PSNI acted in defence of what they said was the law. The Parades

Commission determination. Now, we have seen in the past eight weeks

the PSNI failed to implement the law when you and me and everybody

else was trying to go shopping. Or were they protecting life?

Article 2, the right within the European convention of Human Rights,

the right to life and were the police deciding, do you know what,

we are going to make sure that nobody dies here, we are going to

protect life and it is a lot more sophisticated than you are

suggesting. Where is Roy garland. Have you any sympathy? I have a lot

of sympathy, yes, with the dilemma faced by the police. This situation

in East Belfast, the major parties, I mean I think the politicians have

a big role to play in this. The major parties kicked this off with

their leaflet about the flag being ripped down. It was very emotive

language and that got the thing set off and when the leading

politicians are actually involved to that extent, what do you expect.

Ordinary people? It is a very emotive issue on the grown and if

the police had gone in in East Belfast and took serious action in

terms of lifting people, and there was real violence between the

police and there was violence, but it was the police were actually

more heavy heavy handed and they couldn't have handled and there

would be thousands on the streets. Imtell whau certificatior police

officers -- what -- I will tell you what senior police officers, how

come the political leadership was not able to step in and mean the

police weren't put in the middle getting bricks and bottles and

everything else thrown at them and Peter Robinson couldn't stand

beside Martin McGuinness when the country needed them to. Well...

That's what some police officers will be saying. In many instances

political leaders did that. Deescalated the tension and kept

things peaceful and tried to get people off the streets... When did

the First Minister and Deputy First Minister stand together? Well, I

suggested on Monday past that the two of them should stand together

and condemn all violence past as well as present and the Deputy

First Minister declined to respond to that. Now, I don't know whether

he has a problem with past violence. If He does, does I would like to

hear what it is. And Gerry Kelly said that Martin

asked Peter to stand on this this issue and it didn't happen.

Politician need to give leadership. What you need to do after today,

the Ulster Peoples' Forum indicated that they want to deescalate

tension. We need to get leaders to ensure there are no further attacks

on prod stand property in -- Protestant in the lower part of the

Newtownards Road to deescalate tension. Hope that will respond and

The chief constable has gone in on community policing, where is the

committee policing? You see the brutality on the street, what does

he think he's going to happen? would deny they raise brutality.

can deny it, you can see the video footage. I just wish the PSNI were

here tonight. It would be them but in their view, denying it up.

are they to talk to the people? Yori former detective

superintendent, do you think the police have got this right? I think

a lot of people here are missing the big point, which is that

Article 11 of the European legislation clearly state that

people have a right to protest. The PSNI are duty bound by that to

adhere to it come it will be an interesting court case, because yes,

there is an offence with the obstruction of the highway but

equally, article 11 allows the but to illustrate that demonstration.

Do you think the police have the resources to handle this? I think

the PSNI have done a good job and I am not here to represent them, I am

representing people in the business sector. People are underestimating

the work they are doing. Will has been sitting around, working with

community leaders, no doubt up to his eyes, sleepless nights, with

his senior management team. Give the PSNI habit of credit. They are

here holding up the Rawda brought to an hour community leaders, and

everybody else to get it right. told us it was scandalous that they

had caught in the Metropolitan Police. I think they lost control

last year in London after the riots. But to be fair, they are probably

passing on some of the points that they had under review to be PSNI.

Do you think they needed to learn from the UMPIRE: Game, set and

match,? It should never have happened, you

said. That is the impression a lot of people have a. Why are they

calling in the Metropolitan Police. Having said that, the person doing

the investigation I have a lot of respect for. He knows what he is

talking about, he is a good investigator or therefore yes, I

would say they have done the right thing by getting the Metropolitan

police in. So it is not scandalous? A net macro look at it. -- let's

look at it. The PSNI are always available to look at other police

forces. Chewed Collins, ahead of the marching season, what is your

assessment? I can think of a few things more important than public

confidence in the police service. These are the people we pay to

ensure the law is absurd. -- observed. We could pardon them for

having waited for a few days, eight weeks, and it wasn't just road

blocks, there were people's lives, elected politicians' lives

threatened, their offices were burnt, and we are where we were

when we started. The young man you interviewed earlier felt it would

be a peaceful protest this time, that is what the politicians

thought. Police officers have been injured two, by the way. Can I ask

you about a politician to have had death threats. Would you ask for

the protests outside the offices of politicians to stop? Are don't

think it is advisable to have protests outside the offices of

politicians, that is not what they are there for. Do you condemn them?

You can't condemn a peaceful, legitimate protest outside a party

political office even though it is not desirable. If it happened

outside a DUP office? What we all need it is the protests to end and

the first minister to say that alongside the opposition. He has

said it. Will they should start listening to him. We do need

leadership. The protests are happening, it is interfering with a

democratic right to conduct our business as elected representatives.

If you have people standing outside your door... You have called for

them to stop. Peaceable, lawful, legitimate protest, you think I

should condemn that? If they are interfering with the democratic

process. I have never heard one alight representative of any kind,

of any standing, say the legitimate peaceful protest is presenting them

up from... After eight weeks... There are constituents of hours or

are unwilling to come to our offices because of the perceived

danger of the protesters standing outside, will they get abuse,

particularly in East Belfast... They are intimidated. No alight

robbers as Dave knew that until now. -- no allied to a Briton has dipped.

He is saying it now, so are you calling for them to stop? I don't

think they should happen, I think they should stop. There is a man

here, go ahead. I think the flags issue has certainly brought some

clarity around the legality of having a protest. Certainly for

younger people there is confusion around having -- being able to

block roads, and we didn't want police arresting young people and

giving them a criminal record when they were probably confused and

didn't understand, can I just say... What about this, you don't put a

criminal record, don't break the law. What about telling young

people back. That is where rammed it into, they need to be educated.

I was disappointed that the statement because the word legal

wasn't in it. There are many protests that have been illegal, it

is not as blocking a road, using threatening and violent behaviour,

it is all breaking the law and people need to understand it cannot

be accepted. We need to make this programme about five hours longer

to get through it all, we can continue the discussion on the

radio programme tomorrow and on A police thank our panel. Thank you.

Still to come - are tattoos still Papua, we hear from a man who was

told to leave one of Northern Ireland's prime establishments

because of his body art. My special guest tonight really deserves to be

called special - and he's only four years old! Oscar Knox from

Glengormley is battling an aggressive form of cancer called

neuroblastoma as well as the heart condition pulmonary hypertension.

He has captured the hearts of people across Northern Ireland and

beyond. With celebrities and sports personalities among those getting

behind him. Earlier today I went to meet the man himself.

Kidd to see you! Nice to meet U2. How low there! What is is cheaper

for? Is that oxygen? Yes! What did I say on the radio? They also got a

visit from double Olympic boxing medallist at Paddy Barnes. Do you

want to box me? Yes! And he tried to teach me his favourite dance.

Like this? I am following new! All right? I don't know if I can do

that. Do we get to sleep at any His mum and dad are with us tonight.

I was gobsmacked when I went to your home, thank you for inviting

me. Just the energy that he has, it is incredible. It is hard to

believe he is so sick. I think that is what... How he is, that is what

has engaged everyone so much, because it defies all odds. He is

sick and he has come through so many battles, but he always has

that incredible spirit and that is what has got us through it. And his

illness has very much but a journey. It was late 2011, shortly after his

third birthday, he just started waking up crying in the night and

just wasn't himself. He has just started playgroup a few weeks

earlier so we put it into that, the new environment, but as the weeks

went on a bit of pain developed and all of a sudden we were taking him

in out of hospital. To cut a long story short, it was about seven

weeks, he was eventually diagnosed with neuroblastoma. That was the

chromosome disorder, that is a one in every 100,000 chance of having

that. What happened then was the neuroblastoma, that is an extremely

rare and aggressive Chartered cancer. -- childhood cancer. He has

been battling at Batley, then there was a one in 10 billion chance of

the neuroblastoma, was then there? Boasting sea has, chicken since --

both diseases he has combined are about one in 10 billion, it is

pretty unlucky. Other kids get sick and obviously our hearts go out to

those kids, your story has captured a lot of attention. First of all

because you are incredible parents and you are fighting and fighting

for your child in an amazing way. The treatment wasn't available here

in Northern Ireland so you brought him to America. We faced a hard

decision, we decided to take him abroad to get it where we could. We

knew we had to raise a quarter of million pounds, so starting from

zero and thinking of that figure was just mind-blowing. But we got

our story out there and people started at raising money for him in

small event. This was a Twitter campaign, it started off like that?

And on Facebook, yes, and day one, it we have got to raise a quarter

of a million pounds, go. We knew we had a time limit as well, we knew

we had to get it within a certain space of time, we were working

against the clock. We had about four hours' sleep for about three

months, we gave it our all. And you did it! We did. With the help of

the public who were absolutely fantastic, for love and support

that has been shown for him was just incredible. You got him to

America and when you got him to America, then it was another blow?

Yes, we found out he had a serious heart defect when we got over there,

the flight ported to the fore, he struggled with the lack of oxygen

and everything. Within today's he was critically ill and in intensive

care. This was a massive surprise, because you have been aware of the

other illnesses, I know that he actually coughed up quite a lot of

blood committed and he? He is, it was a horrendous experience. We

couldn't believe what was happening, what we achieved to get there, then

the setback that we knew we couldn't get in the treatment we

felt he really needed. It was beyond a huge blow, we were so far

from home, it was tough. And yet, you thought and he fought. He

needed lost his life but he thought. On two separate occasions, we were

told he might not last the night and we were told to say goodbye to

him just in case. That little man who was running around the living-

room, exhausting the! -- it exhausting me. He has fought back

again! Still fighting. That is what has got tend to this point, he has

incredible fight and as long as he fights, we fight with him. Does he

understand anything about his illness? That is a conscious

decision? We just want him to think it is normal. We are trying to

preserve his innocence, he is Ali four, he has been immersed in this

world of paying and hospitals... And a kids can to, it is horrible.

-- cancer. They see things kids shouldn't have to go through.

he think it is normal every child has to do that in hospital?

staff in the children's unit are incredible, we can't thank them

enough for what they have done. It sound surprising but it is such a

nice environment they have created that Oscar actually involves --

enjoys going to sue the nurses and doctors. This massive campaign, you

two amazing people have made it Liam Neeson has been helping you.

What did you send you? An auny is a friend -- auntie is a friend of his

sister and he sent over some memorabilia.

There is a huge Twitter campaign, a huge Facebook campaign and a huge

internet campaign. At the start, we we create the Team

Oscar wristband and we tried pushing them on celebrities and

sports people and we got a lot of celebrities on board.

What's the outlook for him? As far as we know it is a 50% relapse rate

with his neuroblastoma. We believe he is in remission, but it is 50/50

whether it will rather its ugly head again. If it does, the outlook

is very, very poor, but he has created the moment and we are

taking every day as it comes and hoping he will have a normal life.

I admire him. I only met him today. I admire you two. Keep on fighting

and thank you so, so much for sharing a little part of his story.

Thank you for coming in. Please thank them, ladies and gentlemen.

APPLAUSE Thank you very much.

Right, that's important. That's what life is all about. Before we

move on, let's get a reminder of how you can get in touch with

tonight's programme. Now, some people see them as

unsightly. Others as a form of self expression, but what happens when

your body art leads you to being discriminated against in your

opinion? Well, we know it is against the law to discriminate

against someone on the grounds of race, gender or sexuality, why

could it be OK to show prejudice towards someone because they are

tattooed? Well this week a man brought his story to the Nolan

Radio Show Show. I am nervous. It feels like the first time I went to

get a tattoo done so it does. Don't be nervous, it is only me,

but if you annoy me! Don't be nervous. I phone up up Galgorm

Resort and Spa to book the restaurant for me girl and four

friends. The table was booked for 8.30pm we arrived. Passing the door

men on the way in through. They said, "Are you in for a meal?" I

said yes. We were led to our table and stuff. At the table I said,

"Can I add an extra person to the table?". Let me cut a long story

short. The long and short of this story was, after you had your meal,

you were asked to leave because there is a no tattoo policy within

the premises and that's at the heart of this debate, is it all

right, a no visible tattoo policy and your tattoos are very visible.

Now, we invited a representative from the Galgorm Resort and Spa

into this studio tonight. They declined. They did however, send a

statement in which they said they have a series of codes in place for

Gillies public bar. They said this includes a dress code and a code

which states that tattoos should not be visible whilst in the bar.

The statement went on to say, many of our guests also have tattoos and,

if requested, agree to cover them up while in the bar without any

issue. An establishment can have a policy and if you don't like it, go

somewhere else? Stephen the thing that annoyed me that night was the

fact that the waiter that served me my food or our food was tattooed on

the hand. Now, there was several people walked past me with tattoos,

visible tattoos. Let's widen this out. Do any of you at home have a

problem with tattoos like the one on Mark's face? Would it put you

off? Would you make a judgement about him? Can we call a spade a

spade, would you think he is a hard man? That's what it is about. I am

saying people make a judgement. They look at you and think, "Is

that a hard man?". I'm soft. Do you make any type of judgement?

I think Stephen, everybody does. We all discriminate. This is a

generational thing...... Is it right? Everybody judges everybody.

People are judging me. I don't like him very much. That's the way life

is, but when you go for a job, it is hard enough as it is, but if you

have got a visible tattoo. If you have got a tattoo, I don't mind

tattoos, if they are discreet, if they are pretty pretty... Do you

mind his? A-lovely guy only for the tattoos.

Don't be ridiculous. When I was growing up the only people that had

tattoos were criminals. But this is a generational thing. The tattoo is

the mark of the 21st century. People look at these differently

now. A Carter of the people under 30 -- a quarter of the people under

30 have tattoos. It is great if you want something that's pretty, small,

discreet and not visible. To put it on your hands and face is

tantamount to self indulgence. In my business in Ballymena, my

oldest client that I have tattooed is 63 years of age and you are

trying to say there now that you wouldn't have a tattoo. Why put it

all over your face? I'm just different. I'm just different. I

have been interested in art and tattoo art art from a young age and

it is something I wanted to do. You are a teacher, right? Yes.

Do you think he could teach kids with that? Do you think I could

drive a bus like this? Yes. Do you think I could drive a bus?

Of course, you could. Thank you, I used to work on the

buses and I drove buses for many years looking like this.

If he went for a job... Is the discrimination right or justifiable

in way shape or form? I think people who need visible tattoos,

there is an element of this craving to be an individual and they are

less likely to be a team player. You would just melt into the crowd,

wouldn't you? LAUGHTER

Says him, careful calling the pot black.

Where is Paul Martin? It is great to see Mark on TV because we have

heard about it on the radio and people who heard about this on the

radio thought this guy has gone in with a normal tattoo. Do you judge

him? Well, Mark knows he puts people in a position to judge him.

He said, "I think people probably get intimidated unless they get to

speak to me for two minutes." Who is going to have two minutes of

time to go off to Mark and find out he is a nice guy which by the way

you are and say, "I like you now." They were right to turn you away.

You knew what you were going. When you put this tattoo you must have

thought I want lots of attention and I have got lots of people

noticing me tonne. There is a guy on the front row

that disagrees with you. Are you for or against tattoos? It is every

every individual's choice what you put on. There is fellas serving in

the Armed Forces and in Afghanistan and they have tattoos on the arms

and stuff. They are They are there doing a job. Mark does a job for

the public. If you come in tomorrow and you say, "I want a tattoo on me

face." If you have it on, that's your choice.

Listen, whether it is right or not, park that, OK? You know that you

are putting yourself on the back foot in some situations because...

Will it make me any different or you or anybody else here? It does.

You disadvantage yourself because of what you have put on your face

in terms of situations... Discrimination.

Where you might be discriminated against? It is what people see you

as. It is not yourself. It is the likes of yourself, you can sit

there and look at me and say, "You have served time or you have done

this or that." You don't know me, unless you talk to me, that's the

only way you would know. If you were policemen on the

streets of Belfast, there would be less trouble! I wouldn't misbehave

with you two in charge! The back row. I would like to make

the point there. As an art teacher, I appreciate the tattoo. It is a

great tattoo. It is up to an individual to decide whether he

wants tattooed or not, I wondering what would happen if an individual

wants to have that tattoo removed? Would he be scarred? Can you remove

it safely? That's one decision you have to make before you go and make

any tattoo, you need to be 110% sure about it. I thought very well

about my tattoo and in fact years before I put it on to my face.

Where is Andrew McVeigh. I think Paul Martin is living in the last

century if not the 18th century or something!

APPLAUSE Tattoos

Tattoos are

Tattoos are so

Tattoos are so mainstream.

Tattoos are so mainstream. To be rebellious you would almost not to

have a tattoo. One gh five tattoos have -- one in five young people

have tattoos. Hang on, not all over their face? I have got six of them

and I am a mainstream person and plus one on my foot. If I went into

the the Galgorm Resort and Spa, I wouldn't be allowed in.

I don't want to keep on about the Galgorm.

There is a massive difference. I like the one on your foot. Stead

on! Steady on! There is a difference teen this on

the foot and you know, being outrageously attention seeking

which is what this is! It is self indulgence. That's my

own style. It is great for your business. It

is a win, win. Getting thrown out of a restaurant,

you got great publicity. How do you think I feel? You said

yourself, you probably intimidate people. How do you think I feel

about what happened to me and my party in Galgorm Resort and Spa?

said to Stephen, I haven't slept three nights for it.

It was great publicity for tattoos. I have a successful business as it

is. You understand what I'm saying? One second. There is someone in the

front row here. Yes, go ahead. Tattoos have come on so much since

years ago. 20 odd years ago, you know, you said criminals, but I

mean, you know, it was blokes, you know, that had the tattoos, but it

has come on so much now. Not everybody is is getting them, but

they are works of art. You have seen the pictures up there now. The

actual process has come on so much. They are works of art. The people

want to display them, those works of art.

Look, but people, most people won't admit it, but the majority of

people do discriminate against people who have visible tattoos.

That's their problem. Think about the people who have

tattoos. You were saying people with tattoos, they are

individualists and they are not team players, you can't get more of

of a team player than David Beckham. The Prime Minister's wife. You

can't get more establishment than the Prime Minister's wife, Samantha

Cameron has a tattoo. . Kathy is on the line. Hello Kathy.

Hello gallery. Hello, I would like to make a point that the fella with

a tattoo is a very, very attractive looking fella.

LAUGHTER He looks gorgeous and I think a

couple of tattoos would improve the luck. Luck of the other man!

APPLAUSE -- the look of the other man!

Kathy, I think I'm going to dare to ask this question. Where would you

put the tattoos on Simon? All over his his face because he needs help

or plastic surgery. What is happening there with Kathy,

she is judging you on your appearance and the majority of

people... I can't do much about that.

The majority of people would be going, "That's not right and that's

uncall for." Yet, would the same people... I can't help the way I

look. That's the way I was born. I haven't had plastic surgery, plapse

I need -- perhaps I need some. Well, you are only after

criticising Mark. I have no tattoo, if I was covered up here, could you

tell me? All I'm I'm saying... me see your arm there. Hold your

arm up until I get a shot of your tattoos? Would you judge him

because of that? Yeah, I would judge him. Judge him in what way?

Look, it is not just me, but prospective employers, if you came

along and your hands were covered in tattoos, you are less likely to

get the job. You are on the back foot. You are making... Do you

agree? Well, sort of in a way, Stephen. The news from from from

the Galgorm Resort and Spa and they said they are sorry and they were

going to refund your money. That was the phone call I had..

That's a gesture? It's a joke. That they are refunding your money?

It is a joke. It is clearly an issue and you can see whether the

Galgorm Resort and Spa were in this situation because some of the