Episode 9 The Nolan Show

Tonight, denied an abortion in Northern Ireland - the woman told

her baby would be missing its brain and skull, and would not survive. I

do not even want to go to a shop where I am seeing baby close. --

clothes. People pushing their newborns. Because that should be me.

That's Sarah's story. She wants the law changed here so that other women

in her situation don't have to follow her path to London for an

abortion. Also on tonight's show: A TV funny

man with a dark side. Johnny Vegas will be live in the

studio later. Hello there. You will have heard

Sarah's story on the Nolan radio show this morning, and her plea for

a change in the abortion law in Northern Ireland. Very few stories

have ever had a greater impact. Until very recently, Sarah and her

husband, Jason, were looking forward to the birth of their first baby.

Then the young couple learned the heartbreaking news that their unborn

child had anencephaly. Anencephaly is the absence of a major portion of

the brain, skull, and scalp. In all likelihood, the baby would die

before, during or shortly after birth. Devastated, Sarah decided an

abortion was the only option. But the hospital told her that would be

illegal in Northern Ireland. At the weekend, the family travelled to

England for a termination, at their own expense, at a private clinic. I

met Sarah just after she arrived in London. Some of you may find this

film distressing. London. Some of you may find this

With an image you may find disturbing. Every couple likes a

weekend away. A trip to London is something many people save for. It

is a journey Sarah never wanted to make. She had to come to England to

have an abortion because under the law in Northern Ireland she would

not be allowed one. It is a scary thought. It is. It is not something

that I would have ever even dreamt of going through. This should be a

procedure where I should be in the comfort of my own home. Leaving my

own home to go to my hospital, where I know my consultant, to do my

operation. And return home again. This is not the way this should be.

When Sarah got married, she wanted to have children. But she has been

told her unborn child has anencephaly. Babies with the

condition are born without much of their skull and brain. In all

likelihood, they will die before, during or shortly after birth. The

baby that I am carrying has no life. There is no brain, there is no

skull. What makes you an individual, is not there. This is just a body

that can wriggle and move because my heartbeat makes this heart beat.

That is just it. There is not a baby. It is not a baby. And the

That is just it. There is not a pictures are horrendous. I'd rather

have the memory of seeing it move on-screen and hearing a heartbeat.

Than see the end. Are you OK? Yes. Yes. It is just hard. In Northern

Ireland, contrary to what happens in England, the draft guidance states:

Before I found out what this was, if you have have said to me, would I

have thought of an abortion? I would have said no. No away. There are

people who do this because they don't want a girl, they want a boy,

because it is a one night stand. This is different. I have no choice.

I am literally carrying a body. Unless you are at a suicidal stage

they will not offer you a termination. This is destroying me.

What do you mean? I do not want to go out and face people. It is just

emotionally wrecking. This is not the way I should be. This is not who

I am. What would you say to the the way I should be. This is not who

Health Minister, Edwin Poots, Sarah? He needs to change his ways. He

needs to seriously think about what women are going through. And it has

an impact on the whole family. Sarah has travelled to London with her

husband, Jason. He wants the Health Minister to change the law so other

families do not face the same journey. Jason, what has been the

toughest part on you? When you are having a new goal, the first thing

you think is it is going to be daddy's Princess. To go from that to

be told what it could be it was just soul destroying, devastating. I

would hate to see anybody going through what we have had to go

through. Have had to go through. Adil any confidence the Health

Minister will listen to you? I would like to think he would. You do not

understand the feeling until you are in this position. He cannot make

those decisions sitting in his office. It has got to be the

doctors, the consultants making these decisions. He is not the one

who has to deal with it. Together, they head back to the hotel to try

to get some sleep before the morning they head back to the hotel to try

of the operation. It is now just 90 minutes or until

Sara checks in for the termination. Here we are, the morning. How are

you feeling? Very nervous. Very nervous. Did you sleep last night?

No. This is not easy. Not easy. No. What was going through your mind

last night, Sarah? Everything. Nothing in particular. I just could

not sleep with the worry of today, just the not knowing. You just

cannot put your mind at rest. As Sarah prepares to make way to the

cannot put your mind at rest. clinic, she knows many people will

object to what will happen here. She feels with her baby having virtually

no chance of survival, coming here was the only option she had. What is

the psychological impact of this on you? I can see it in your face, I

can see it in your eyes. I'm halfway through my pregnancy. Most people

would have baby stuff already brought into their house. I don't

even want to go to a shop where I see baby clothes. Or people pushing

their newborns. Because that should be me. And no matter what, at the

end of this, it will not be me. As much as I wanted to be me with a

normal baby, it is not going to happen.

Shortly after that filming, about 90 minutes, two hours after that, Sarah

had her abortion in London. And she returned back to Northern Ireland

last night. Her mother, Jane, is in the studio. Hello, Jane. Thank you

for coming in. First of all, how is she? She is OK. She is home. She is

a bit of a shadow. She is picking up the pieces. It'll take a while. It

is such a sensitive issue for you the pieces. It'll take a while. It

and your family. You will understand there are very much two sides to

this debate in Northern Ireland and we need to explore both sides. Why

do you want the law changed on abortion in Northern Ireland?

Medical grounds. It cannot go on the way it is going. I think they are

tarring everybody with the one brush. Sarah's situation is that the

baby just was not going to survive. And what we did was take the lesser

of the two evils, if you like, the only options available. We would

have had to put through horrendous birth. The birth, there was no way

have had to put through horrendous she wanted to go through it, once

she found out what was involved. The baby would not have come out easily

because the part of the brain is not fair that activates along with the

mother to come out. Because there is fair that activates along with the

no skull. The school can apply pressure which helps during a

pregnancy? And it would've been long. Long for her. What did the

medical professionals say to you, who are caring for Sarah? I know you

have so much praise for the medical staff in Northern Ireland. What did

they say to her? Their hands were tied, they could not do anything.

They were devastated for her because they understood, but unfortunately

unless you are literally suicidal, and ready to see a psychiatrist,

unless you are literally suicidal, they will not allow it to go ahead

in Northern Ireland. And at that point, it is too late. There are

other mental issues involved. The mother is having to deal with going

into a shop and seeing baby clothes. Turning the corner, seeing a newborn

baby. They break down. Breastmilk coming into play even though they do

not have the baby. It is devastating that these mental needs are not

being addressed and they are waiting until the woman is literally at this

stage of suicide. It is the obstetrician that needs to be

involved, not be psychiatrist. The reason you are talking about this is

because the legislation says in Northern Ireland it is illegal to

perform a termination of pregnancy unless it is necessary to preserve

the life of the pregnant lady or there is a real and serious adverse

affect on her physical or mental health which is either a long-term

or permanent. Yes. That is the official guidelines. In England, if

there is a serious abnormality like in this case, you can have an

abortion, not here. Dr Roselle Ward from the Christian Medical

Fellowship, this family are devastated and they wanted a choice

for them and the lawmakers in Northern Ireland are intervening in

their choice, are they not? I have to say, it is a truly heartbreaking

scenario and I do not say it likely that my heart goes out to Sarah and

her husband. It is not an easy situation, it is not an easy

scenario. We have to look at the situation, we are dealing with two

individuals and it is very difficult to get one law that Saul and you're

talking... There is a push to change the law with regards to that. It is

interesting to note that Parliament has looked at this with concern and

they feel that the law as it stands is actually discriminatory. We are

living in a society where we are all preoccupied with the quality, but

they look at it as discriminatory against people with disability. The

Parliamentary can produced a report saying it is outdated. This family

are not asking for the abortion act to be brought here, what they are

saying is that if there is no chance of a life beyond a few hours after

birth... My daughter would not have considered this if there was no

chance of a disability. The morning they were told and had it confirmed

and were told that this, they thought in their own minds, we were

sitting discussing about spinal operations, thinking at the back of

their mind that they had an opportunity to bring this baby home.

That was taken away from them. Can you help me understand why that

family should not have the right to an abortion if the baby has no

chance of life? The baby may have some chance of life, not in the

long-term, you have to be realistic. There would be those of the opinion

that the life is valuable and valued, however long or brief that

may be. Are you off that opinion? Even if it did not have any brain

function? I know of those who have been in it, it is dreadful, but

there are those who have gone through it and carried the pregnancy

to term... This is not an easy birth. The brain is open and there

is no skull, no forceps can be birth. The brain is open and there

attached to enable this baby to come down the birth canal, this is a

first child and it was very much wanted. There are those who have

gone through with it and actually found it helpful in the pain and the

agony that they are going through. found it helpful in the pain and the

Definitely not the right website, the amount of women who talked about

the depression, the emptiness, seeing the baby when it was born and

having to deal with a funeral... There are many who have found

holding their baby for a few minutes or a few hours, it has been a help

for them. It may work for some, but it does not work for all. When my

daughter had that operation, she was sitting in a room with other people

coming in to register for an abortion and they were laughing and

carrying on and I am sitting looking at them breaking their hearts and

everybody else, the majority of them sitting there for the one reason,

just to get rid of the baby and I hated that. I am sure. They were

there for a medical grounds, after the operation she was with women who

were delighted that they had had an abortion and the problem had been

solved and Sarah thought, I would have liked to have had my baby. The

problem with the law is because of that which allows it in England. It

has been so abused. They have admitted that. We could talk about

that on another night. Here is the reality of the situation we are

looking at night. There is a young lady who would not have contemplated

an abortion if the child had been disabled in anyway and could have

had any sense of a long life or life. That baby was either going to

die before being delivered within hours of being delivered, would not

have experienced very much at all, hours of being delivered, would not

because the brain was not developed. Are you telling me that that mothers

should still be forced deliver that dead baby? Force is not the right

word to use. That baby had a life. If my daughter could not have

afforded to go here, the only option available was to have that birth.

Can you help me with the question? available was to have that birth.

Are you saying that her daughter should have been forced to have a

dead baby? I am saying that the law, and people are pushing for a change,

but the law allows... People are saying we should narrow it down to

allow certain categories, Parliament has said you cannot police that, it

is discriminating, the law as it stands... How do you answer the

problem that people under the law, children, babies with cleft palate,

club feet, all of which are entirely surgically repairable, are being

aborted? That is a huge leap from what we are talking about. There is

a young lady at the end there. I agree with Dr Roselle Ward. I am

100% against abortion. I do not think abortion should be allowed to

happen anywhere. That is my own opinion. Let us hear from this lady.

We need to get with the times. This is accepted in other parts of the

We need to get with the times. This UK, so why not here? And there is a

lady here at the ends will stop I wanted to say how incredibly brave

everyone is. I am for change. It needs to change. I see where you're

coming from, but this is something different to cleft palettes. It is a

different topic. This is a lady who believes that her baby is not there

any more and the doctors have said that her baby's brain does not

function and surely we have a duty of care to her to make sure that she

is OK. What would have happened with my daughter, every two weeks she

would have been scanned to see the heartbeat was still there and then

at some point if the heartbeat had gone. When she is out, people are

meeting her, she is getting bigger, people are asking about the baby,

and it is a horrendous situation. Let me speak to Brendan Hughes from

the Royal College of Midwives. -- Let me speak to Brendan Hughes from

Breedagh Hughes. Is this rare? It is not a common situation. My heart

goes out to the couple. Myself in the course of my practice and my

colleagues across Northern Ireland well at various times in their

career have provided care and support in as compassionate way as

possible to women in this situation. In some ways, the women that we have

possible to women in this situation. cared for in Northern Ireland have

been the lucky ones, because somehow their obstetrician has managed to

find a way to provide the care and treatment that they need close to

home and what has made this much more difficult for Sarah and Jason

is the fact that they have had to leave home to go to London, to make

very critical decisions in a short time frame, to travel with not the

support of parent our family, although I hear that Sarah's mother

has been fantastic. These guidelines are clear. Foetal abnormality is not

recognised as grounds for termination in Northern Ireland.

This is Ed Boon -- Edwin Poots is department. The law is not keeping

pace with modern technology which can tell women unequivocally at 20

weeks into the pregnancy that there is something terribly wrong with

their baby which means that the baby cannot survive. Anencephaly is one

such disorder, there are other disorders as well. In terms of the

guidelines, these are issued by the Department of Health, currently in

draft form and the Royal College of Midwives said in July that the tone

and language use throughout the document is intimidating and

threatening for women and health care professionals, why do they say

that? If anyone has read the latest draft guidance that they would agree

with that statement. Although it is supposed to be guidance for

professionals, it has been written from a very legalistic prospective,

it is very heavy on the penalties if an abortion is carried out at that

does not meet the strict criteria. It talks about life imprisonment. It

talks about imprisonment, ten years, life imprisonment. The very

tone of that guidance will impart a chill factor. People will be

frightened, health care professionals will be frightened. It

is not unknown to have health care professionals reported to the police

for example for having participated in abortions. I cannot understand

when you were telling me in England, I could not understand why

you were saying that the medical professionals here in Northern

Ireland seem to be on your side, but were frightened of getting involved

in this abortion issue. Listen to the guidance. The question of

whether it would be lawful in Northern Ireland to advocate or

promote to a pregnant woman in Northern Ireland the termination of

pregnancy outside of Northern Ireland, where that termination of

pregnancy would be lawful in the place that would be carried out, but

would not be lawful in Northern Ireland, has never been considered

by the courts. This guidance says that this is a grey area in which

pending clarification by the courts, the lawfulness of such

conduct would have to be regarded as uncertain. Is that clear guidance?

Would that scary you as a medical professional? You might be

committing a criminal offence, it is not certain, it is a grey area! Is

there not a role, I do not know, I am not having a go, I am asking a

there not a role, I do not know, I question, is there a role here for

the director of public is the Northern Ireland to provide some

the director of public is the type of guidance? Is it likely that

a medical professional would be prosecuted? Is that a question for

the Attorney-General? For referring someone to across the water, should

there be clearer guidance from the lawmakers in this country as to

whether someone is going to go to jail? Do we say it is a grey area

and put all the pressure on the medical professionals? Is that they

are? That is one of the reasons why we have been calling for guidance.

In 2004, the then Health Minister was instructed by the Court of

Appeal to issue guidance to medical professionals working in this area

and ten years down the line almost we still have no guidance. The draft

guidance that you have referred to was issued for consultation in March

of this year. The consultation closed in July and we have heard

absolutely nothing from the Department of Health about how they

plan to introduce this guidance. Bernie Smith is with us this evening

from an anti-abortion campaign group. Pro-life group, Stephen,

thank you. Why don't you set out your view? I think the law is very

clear. The medical profession deal with it very well. It is a crime, it

is a criminal offence. Women will not be denied medical care and have

never been denied medical care. We not be denied medical care and have

have the lowest maternal birth rate in all women. Mother and child are

treated as patients. Sadly, yes, we have great sympathy for this

situation that Sarah had to endure. But very clearly she outlined

herself, her life was not in danger. We need to improve, we need to

forward better care for that mother through that pregnancy, better

help, better care for the child in the womb. Is part of that care

forcing that mother, forcing Sarah, to have a baby she does not want to

deliver? Part of the care is to take the mother and the baby through the

pregnancy, to support both the mother and the child. I would be

supplied if that care was not provided through this pregnancy.

Sorry, stop. It is very important that you do not speculate. The

concrete evidence that we have from that you do not speculate. The

the family is that they could not have got better care. 100%. I am

glad to hear that. Let's deal with the issue. If there is a baby which

is not going to have brain function, which is not going to survive beyond

a couple of hours after birth, if it doesn't die before birth, are you

saying that lady should be forced to deliver that baby? I am saying that

baby -- that lady should be supported through that pregnancy. Is

that yes? That the same care is given to that mother. I believe that

support should have been advanced more in this case. I do not believe

that aborting a baby ever is the right thing to do for any mother in

any situation. I think it is better for the mother. Evidence has shown

that women who abort their babies because of terminal illnesses, have

long-term, serious post traumatic disorder. Saw your view is that it

should be imposed on this family? Definitely not. Not the horrendous

birth that was facing my daughter. Definitely not. It is not the care

of the patients are at the baby. It is delivery and having to go through

of the patients are at the baby. It a long horrendous birth, a very

painful birth. Birth where the baby has difficulty, literally in getting

out. There is nothing to grab onto in the school. Having to face what

actually comes out, Sarah was devastated. She said she would

rather remember the baby in here than appear as a mental image of

what I have delivered. I can than appear as a mental image of

understand that. No, you can't understand that you would not be

sitting here arguing with me. Quite truthfully, how your case got on

outside the family planning clinic, don't even get me started on that.

Hold on. Let's actually... What you are referring to there, and let's be

clear to be fair to you Bernie, we do not know which group was involved

in this. Let's make that clear. However, we do know what Sarah is

telling us happened to her. Let's However, we do know what Sarah is

hear what he said. Listen to this. I was told if I wanted a medical

termination I had to go to a family planning place. I went there. I had

termination I had to go to a family to come out and face the abuse.

Protestors. They said that I did not know what I was doing. They were

shouting at my mother that she did not know what she was putting her

daughter through, that she was killing life. They do not know my

circumstances. From minute we came out of the glass doors to the minute

we got into our car, they followed us. They were nearly in the with

us, with their banners. It was horrendous.

Bernie Smith, whoever was involved in that, I gave you on teen

opportunities on the radio this morning to condemn any protest that

would scream into the face of a pregnant lady, and you refused to

condemn it this morning. Do you want to condemn it now? I do not know any

protest or counsellor which showed in anybody's face. I obviously was

not there that day. As a pro-life campaigner, I oppose all violence, I

oppose all harassment. I am in favour of helping and supporting. I

can only imagine, from listening to Sarah's story, that whoever was

reaching out to her that day was Sarah's story, that whoever was

reaching out with love and support. Screening in her face? I have no

idea who would be screaming in anybody's face. Would you condemn

it? Have you the evidence apart from the evidence that you heard tonight?

A woman was so much in my face, if there was an identity parade, I

could pick out for you. Talk to your people. It is inappropriate for this

to happen. I was going to turn around to them and say, you do not

know my daughter's circumstances, this is a medical condition and it

has taken a lot for us to come down here. Do you know what the problem

is? When you go to the building, you go through a door and there is a set

of buttons. You press the family planning button and you are

boasting. That immediately alert these guys that you are going to

family planning. When you come out, it is nothing but abuse. Doing what?

Just shouting. Do you realise what you are doing to your daughter? She

will remember this for the rest of her life. Shouting abuse into the

car. Do not do this to your baby. There are other options. I thought,

would you please go away? I want this day to be over. I would not see

that as abuse. I would hate to see what your after-care is if you do

that as abuse. I would hate to see not see that as abuse. I would not

be darkening your doorstep. I was not there. None of us watching that

tonight needed to be there. You have had a scenario explained to you.

This is very important because you do represent some people who

protest. We do not know if these people were aligned to your group

are not. It was a very genuine and important question. You have just

said you support that kind of behaviour. I am opposed to all

violence. Hold on a minute. Let me put the point to you. You would

consider what has been described to you tonight as reaching out not

abuse? Absolutely. That does not say I was in favour. I'm opposed to all

violence, all harassment, but I I was in favour. I'm opposed to all

would be in favour of reaching out to any mother in crisis with love

and support. Whoever did what they did to this lady's daughter, that

was fair and it was reaching out, was it? I do not agree with any form

of violence. What was described there, as you stated clearly, there

is another way. There is help available. That is exactly what you

said. If that was offered, I would see that as a very loving option.

Somebody was forcing their opinions on me when we were in a fragile

state. Constantly going at them. I don't think that is a good way of

going about things. I really don't. I am sorry. As a mother, I don't see

how that is useful. There is a young man in the shirt. This lady here

mentioned that the mother's health was not in jeopardy from the

pregnancy. It would appear to me this draft legislation does not take

into account the impact of mental problems. It is not draft

legislation, it is draft guidelines. It says there needs to be a

long-term or a permanent serious adverse effect on mental or physical

health. It needs to be long-term or permanent. Well, they need to get on

with it then. They are waiting around too long. A grey area for the

medical staff. Why macro -- Y? Why a grey area? The Attorney General, why

a grey area? This fellow here. I just think it sounds like your

daughter's doctors seem to have a better idea of what is best for your

daughter's doctors seem to have a daughter than some of the people

here tonight with their old terrier motives. -- old terrier motives. We

need to keep our focus here. Life is precious. And the matter how brave,

need to keep our focus here. Life is no matter how long,

need to keep our focus here. Life is problem this morning and another

young man rang in who had been advised by the medical profession.

This gentle man was told that their baby would survive an hour. The baby

survived ten and a half years. There are two individuals here. Let me

finish. He also said it was a very selfish decision and if he had to

make it over again, he would not go down the same road. The prognosis is

not always accurate. Many people make decisions on abortion based on

not always accurate. Many people inaccurate diagnosis. Many babies

have been aborted because they have been told something is wrong. And

many a normal baby has been aborted. I am a medical student myself. One

of the main things we are taught is that we should do no harm. Do no

harm? How can you tell me that aborting a child is not harmful? It

would be viable for a certain time. Families have found tremendous help.

It should be up to the family to decide. Hard cases make bad law is.

You cannot make laws on one case. The Parliamentary and looked into

this, took evidence. The majority of the women from whom it took evidence

were women who had been through similar scenarios. They were in

support. We need to support the women and the baby. I know that many

of you will be having this discussion now. Let me just remind

you how you can get in touch with the programme. There is the Twitter

address. We will continue this discussion on Twitter tonight right

into the early hours. We will pick it up again on the radio show in the

morning. Goretti Horgan is joining us. The lower itself, sorry, the

draft guidelines themselves, talk about grey areas. In Northern

Ireland we have fatal abnormality. No matter what the circumstances,

the matter what the life expectancy, feet or abnormality cannot ever be

considered as an issue for abortion. Is that right? It is absolutely not

right. I think it is worth saying to Sarah and Jason and her mother, that

the overwhelming majority of people in Northern Ireland, in survey after

survey, have said very clearly that in Northern Ireland, in survey after

three out of four of them say that it is not always wrong to have an

abortion if it is going to be a severe disability. And certainly in

a case where there is no chance of a feed is actually becoming a living

baby, there is no doubt about it but the vast majority of people would

say that Sarah should have been able to have had her abortion in Northern

Ireland with the love and support of her family. I am not sure. Most of

the political parties in Northern her family. I am not sure. Most of

Ireland are anti-abortion. Yes, but they don't get elected on the basis

that they are anti-abortion. They they don't get elected on the basis

get elected on the orange and green issues and then they tell us that

because they are anti-abortion, the issues and then they tell us that

rest of us must be. If you look at the social attitude surveys, the

opinion polls, the public are far ahead of the politicians. The public

are very clear that, for example, if your woman is pregnant as a result

of rape, she should be able to have an abortion. That if a woman is

facing the kind of dreadful situation that Sarah was, she should

be able to have an abortion. And quite a large, almost majority, say

that actually a woman should be able to have an abortion until 12 weeks

pretty much at the request of the woman. These pro-life is, it is none

of your business what this girl doors. It is her choice and I do not

see why issue -- you should interfere. You see the woman who

screamed into Sarah's face. If it had have been me or one of my

daughters, I would have decked her! had have been me or one of my

There is no where a I can do anything other than to completely

tell you you should not have decked her! Bernie Smyth. Do you want to

reply? I do not think that would be very loving. It would not be

reaching heights, would it? -- reaching out. This whole argument

revolves around to people and we must love those two people, the

mother and the baby and we must always provide loving means to care

for them both and that is what our movement is about. On Twitter

for them both and that is what our tonight, I am looking at the

messages and texts and e-mails, one person is asking about the physical

pain of the child in the womb. Another tweet says what a brave

mother and daughter who have gone public to share this traumatic

ordeal. Another phone call. Hello. Let us use common sense. The law is

the law and in most cases, it does work, but there are certain

circumstances where common-sense has to prevail. There are people here

who are bringing a child into the world. This child will not survive,

there are huge psychological effects for the parents and the wider family

and I think it is totally wrong that we have got pro-life people on here

saying that we should bring this child into the world. Common-sense

should prevail and should be medical intervention. Thank you. Within

hours of this broadcasting on the radio this morning, the Justice

Minister issued a statement in which he said there is no overall appetite

in the Assembly for substantial change to the law, nor is he

advocating it, but here is what he said which will be interesting.

David Ford said the question is said which will be interesting.

whether we have drawn the line in exactly the right place. It is not

about bringing the abortion act to Northern Ireland, but there would be

value in having a journey wine and since he and honest debate about a

small number of difficult cases which may not always be covered by

the current law. That is the Justice Minister issuing that statement

because you have gone public. Here is a guy in the very centre. I think

it is important to take the is a guy in the very centre. I think

individual interests of women into account. The health Department

should take a more pragmatic approach to each and every case and

evidently tonight we have seen an exceptional case and I hope Edwin

Poots does take notice. I'd am supportive of Jane Christie and her

daughter. I would like to say that my sympathy goes out to the lady and

her daughter and the grandchild, but I can also give you cases of people

who have been told they should have an abortion twice, decided not to,

by the very same reason, because there are parts of the baby that

were missing, and the child is in there are parts of the baby that

the living room, walking around and there is nothing wrong with it. On

the same subject, Precious Life has that name because it protects all

life, and when people are standing outside an abortion clinic, what

happens is this, a counsellor talks and held a person they have another

option. If someone wants to say that shouting, they only have a small

period of time to say something. It is a protest, they pray and ask God

to help them. Jane Christie what would you do next? Hopefully the

Minister will see us, talk to us and we will have some input into what we

are looking for, and at the end of the day... Edwin Poots has said he

is prepared to meet you and your family. Ladies and gentlemen, we

will continue the debate online and on social media. I will continue it

right after the show. Please give our guests round of applause. -- a

round of applause. Before we move on, here's a quick reminder of how

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texts will be charged at your standard message rate. Now my next

texts will be charged at your guest used to work in Argos, sold

door-to-door insurance, studied art and pulled pints for a living before

turning to stand-up comedy. Describing himself as an

"enthusiastic drinker", his personality has merged with that of

his beer-swilling, scruffy, belligerent stage character. Ladies

and gentlemen, please welcome Johnny Vegas. Is it time to go home. Ladies

and gentlemen, please welcome Johnny Vegas! Thank you for coming. A

pleasure to be here. I bumped into him. He will not remember this. I

was starstruck about ten months ago and I was getting onto a plane in

London and he was in front of me. I tapped him on the shoulder. Did you

tapped me on the shoulder and asked me to take a bygone for you. I said

that I presented a television show in Northern Ireland and would you

come onto it. I did. Your age still said no! Right, so you brought me on

here to prove I wouldn't come on? You said you had a television show

the way people say I am building a rocket! Let us go to the moon! You

tapped me on the plane, early morning, hungover, there was a whiff

tapped me on the plane, early of something few! There was not!

There was a smell of something of him. It might have been a strong

aftershave. At times like that, people say that, you say is it

aftershave. At times like that, broadcast from an attic! You know

that agents have that. The wife lives in Dublin and I live in

Ireland half my life now. It is not the case of not wanting to go to

Ireland. Traditionally, we will have more fun on here than a home -- bin

Ireland. Traditionally, we will have programme back at home. They all ask

you why you're not in the Priory! Why aren't you in the Priory!

Because over here I am a character. I was reading all about you and my

perception, Johnny Vegas, and then I was reading all about you and my

you say Johnny Vegas is not really I was reading all about you and my

you, you have escaped the character. I have not escaped him.

Not completely in that way. The thing with the book was how he came

about. I bought into the idea that I had created him, put the flares on,

had the perm, the best permit ever that I got in Belfast. Actually, a

few years on, I have a son, a wife, Johnny Vegas did take over. He was a

coping mechanism before he became a stand-up. You had become the

character in real life, hadn't you? There was this guy who was out of

control and drinking and messing up and you had become that hell-raiser

in real life? I did, yeah, because at one point he refused to go back

in the box and he was like, it is more fun being Johnny than it is

being Michael. So, you go back in the box and I will be Johnny. I saw

you at a festival a few years ago, it was heaven. You would not know it

now. He took his shirt off at the it was heaven. You would not know it

end of the night and got people to throw coins at him. You were mad.

You were out of control. At what point did you realise it? I'm not a

recovering alcoholic. I have this thing in stand-up that when you are

recovering alcoholic. I have this doing well, it is the only job were

people do not create an intervention, because when it is

going well, people love you, and folk to live precariously through

you. Everybody wants to have a drink with Johnny, everyone wants a night

out, but then you want to go home and raise your family. Imagine if

Johnny came home with you and then set fire to your kitchen! Then he

said I would like to live here for the next few years. It is the idea

of living with this, being this thing. It was an evil. It was a

really good stand-up, it was part of me, but not part of me. You needed a

drink to go on stage. I could not become Johnny without a drink. I am

very shy. Oh, get away! You have seen me at airports. They turn away

and think everyone is mad who wants to talk to me. I used to buy into

this. When actors go, I am quite shy, I thought more why choose a job

like this. I didn't, it was an alter ego that shows it and it came about

because of different things I was not aware of. I am fascinated with

people in the public eye, and who the real person is. It fascinates

me. I heard about you that you with this big character, but you were

insecure. Is that true? I do not like confrontation. It's only has a

go... I don't like it myself. You like confrontation. It's only has a

will often shy away. You are a gentle soul. I wouldn't say gentle.

Jesus, I shout at Angela Lansbury. I always guess the killer. In the

first five minutes. I have called her a slot. She flirts why she is

solving crimes. -- Wyler. At what point, was that your child, at what

point did you say I am growing up? What a life defining moment? This

point did you say I am growing up? guy who had lived in my head came

along, got a drink, got hold of a microphone and its staff with comedy

but I am really proud of. He did not want to run with the pack, he did

not worry about what critics said, he loved comedy for what it was and

what it could be, going out and playing to a proud and giving the

crowd, giving comedy back to the crowd. Forget alternative comedy, .

There were people who redefined comedy. They then said you're not

allowed to do this or that. It was like band cabaret. Johnny went, who

made you boss of comedy? I would go out of my way to do everything that

annoys other comics, but do something that works. And it

worked. It was beautiful. There is a point where you go, when you are

Johnny and you are at Christmas lunch, and you are flicking brussels

sprouts at your dad and the family is unimpressed. When you are in a

and E for the ninth time, it ceases is unimpressed. When you are in a

to be entertaining. I have a story and I will not tell you who it is,

to be entertaining. I have a story was quite a well-known person who is

telling me a story in which he was talking about Jeremy Kyle and he

said he was actually out for dinner with Jeremy Kyle and he was actually

out for dinner with Jeremy Kyle Addy sediment real life, look into my

eyes and he had become the character that he is on television in real

life. I missed Jeremy Kyle by nine minutes in a late-night boozer. I

wanted to put my hand round his throat and then run the lie

detector. Tell me how much I like you! Tell me! Talk about somebody,

that is human emotional slavery. Johnny would have strong him up. I

keep pushing you to the real-life, what is it like being a dad? It is

brilliant. It has been such a fascinating debate tonight. For me

as a dad, he saved me in a lot of ways. He made me remember what was

good about being Michael and what I wanted to give to my son. What a

lovely thing to do, first time you mention your real name when it is

talking about something you really care for, your son, not your job?

Why do you say he saved you? My son was born and I remembered everything

that was good about my childhood before... What your life becomes,

you go, I loved my dad, I love my mum and dad, I love everything that

they encourage me today. I had religion, but I had saved, I was

allowed to question it, I was allowed to question every element of

my life and was a person who was a hero and it was my dad and I was

going, child deserves somebody who does not have to be perfect, but

your son has to know that you are his dad, you do not belong to the

public, you belong to him. Your job is your job, first and foremost,

getting up for school and making butties and doing the school run and

walking up the hill, when he goes wide we always talk about spies were

me go to traffic lights, I have got an obsession, makes me really happy

and he does not believe in spies. Happier than being on TV? No, but I

go on television because I have to pay bills. I wish I had so much time

few. I do not have any more time. Ladies and gentlemen, we are out

tonight and to end the show we will give it Johnny Vegas are around of

applause. Good night. -- gave Johnny Vegas are around of applause.